Can you explain?

[joeprunes]

I need a better explanation other than the horse knows when he is inferior to the horse hes running against

Example: 10k claiming horse runs 6f in 1.10

60k claiming horse runs 6f in 1.10

yet if they run against each other the 60k will win right?Some opinions please..jp

[BIG HIT]

Hi joe at the higher class you would probably notice faster fraction and less fatigue after that higher spd.Which the cheaper horse would show.Hope that help's you

[dogfish]

had a couple of retired greyhounds,one was a stakes winner 10y.o.the other a3y.o.that never did much,they used to to run circles in the back yard.that 3 y.o. would never consider passing the the stakes dog.had the speed to do it .

class-they must know!

[LOU M.]

I can't answer about a horses nature other than they are supposed to sense when a superior horse is amongst them.As far as time goes the higher the class the more competitive the internal fractions are.In your example the 10k horse might get fractions of 22 45 1.10 the 60k would get 21 44 1.10.THE 10k horse when he tries to go up in class would have to run faster earlier which would mean he would slow down even more later.So in order to keep up with 21 45 he would expend to much energy early resulting in a final time say 1.12. The times may not be precise but you get idea.If your interested read William Quirins' books. He uncovered this theory. Ever notice the 3/4 frac. of stakes routes. These horses run 1.10 and the are just in the middle of the race.Hope this helps.

[Derek2U]

Notice that all records, at 7fs and longer, are held by horses
from Major Tracks .... not speed crazy surfaces. Classy horses
run at classy tracks & establish track records. (I'm not sure what
I just typed so your on your own here.)

[Doug]

Agree with Big Hit, but also think that a higher class horse probably stays in better condition than the lower class horses.

An exception was yesterday at Santa 1st race. A horse that was claimed for 10 or 1200 in Nov was entered for $16000in Dec and was a vet scratch. Didn't race since the and yesterday is in for $35000 and runs about as tough a race as you will see, wins by a nostril and pays $27 or something like that. Had some pretty sharp works coming into race.

So condition of the horse has a lot to do with it imo.


Doug

[Derek2U]

good point . 2 things looked good in your example:
(1) the horse was claimed ; (2) away from racing w/ sharp works.
I always move a horse up a bit if a horse is claimed from a race
in which he ran good and maybe is rested a bit w/ a work or 2
that looks on the money.

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by joeprunes
I need a better explanation other than the horse knows when he is inferior to the horse hes running against

Example: 10k claiming horse runs 6f in 1.10

60k claiming horse runs 6f in 1.10

yet if they run against each other the 60k will win right?Some opinions please..jp

Horses run as fast as is necessary under the conditions. That's why time is not the only reliable element of handicapping.

[PurplePower]

Originally posted by joeprunes
I need a better explanation other than the horse knows when he is inferior to the horse hes running against...jp One input variable is survival instinct. Horses running in wild depended on herd mates for survival. For any "herd" to survive as an entity, some must be "leaders" and others "respectors". When lead horse said "run" they all ran. Respectors would not pass the leader because they trusted that leader for their survival. We have reduced a horse's dependance on its survival instinct, but certain intrinsic characteristics are not removable. Add to that some of the factors mentioned in other posts and you realize that the horse does not recognize that it is "inferior" in running ability, but respects another as its herd leader - either because that leader is more talented, or healthier or in better condition.
Sometimes that "leader" personality gets inferior training, or has an injury that prevents it from demonstrating its talent. Transferred to a new barn or given therapy and time off, that runner returns to races with more energy, or in good health and suddenly starts moving up the claiming ladder. Conversely, moving down the class ladder a horse may find a group in which it is the leader. No other horse takes the "lead" (the slower pace scenario) and our former "respector" now becomes a leader, accepts its role and makes us some money (if our astute handicapping skills -- not to mention our computer program that distinguishes which horse is about to change from respector to leader - helps us pick that horse to WIN.)
You ever walk in a bar and just "know" that you don't want to start any ruckus? Other places, you don't mind flirting with someone else's date, or maybe teasing a co-worker. But, just walking in that bar something in your being says, "this would not be a good place to start something". Same survival instinct.
Doesn't answer the question definitively, but is a variable that is hard to put into a computer program.

[delayjf]

Saw this this weekend. If anybody wants to see an example of horse leadership or class or hierarchy, take a dozen or so apple out to a group of horses an attempt to feed them all. One horse will attempt to run off the others horses. The other horses will not put up a fight but will yeild to the aggressive horse.

[anotherdave]

Originally posted by joeprunes
I need a better explanation other than the horse knows when he is inferior to the horse hes running against

Example: 10k claiming horse runs 6f in 1.10

60k claiming horse runs 6f in 1.10

yet if they run against each other the 60k will win right?Some opinions please..jp

Well I'm not a class handicapper, so I wouldn't say that the 60k would win necessarily. I do believe in class, but maybe the 10000 horse is really better than 10000. I hit Debonair Joe in a Grade III and then Grade I stakes at large odds despite the fact his times were competitive.They didn't like him because he WAS a 32000 claimer (claimed and improving every start since). I decided that since the claim he was a MUCH better horse. ...although I've said that before and lost!

AD

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by anotherdave
Well I'm not a class handicapper, so I wouldn't say that the 60k would win necessarily. I do believe in class, but maybe the 10000 horse is really better than 10000. I hit Debonair Joe in a Grade III and then Grade I stakes at large odds despite the fact his times were competitive.They didn't like him because he WAS a 32000 claimer (claimed and improving every start since). I decided that since the claim he was a MUCH better horse. ...although I've said that before and lost!

AD

Dave:

They picked him up for 12,500.......what a bargain!!! I would say a pretty good investment. I wish I would have had him on both days. He beat me in the Grade 3 by a neck and I forgot he was running the last time he "upset the field". Perfect horse for Julie Krone. Her riding style matches the horse perfect. Congrats for cashing on that guy.

[kenwoodall]

Some do not like to pass. Some depends on amount of energy left. That is why good trainers who place horses better win more!

[tcat]

Perhaps not so complicated.........

Perhaps there is no such thing as class, only speed. We humans divide horses into time segments called class.
...for example, If you can't run fast enough, you are a claimer.

[Derek2U]

Guys nothing seems sillier to me that the idea that "perhaps
there is no such thing as class among horses; maybe its a man-made invention. only speed matters." Coming from a room that
puts ROI on a pedestal (ROI = MONEY) you should realize that
its MONEY that makes this game continue. Any trainer who puts
a horse in a 20K claimer and loses that horse for 20K when,
a pool of potential buyers would quickly pay 30K, will soon have
few clients. Class = Ability and it varies probably right at birth.
Training can never make a slow horse fast; only less slow. Theres
a lot of stuff that great athletes are born with and that stuff, with
decent or advanced training, makes them champs. Maybe the
trouble is identifying subleties in class.

[GR1@HTR]

Class:

This sounds a little nutty but I see it all the time w/ dogs. Almost daily my dog runs freely with other dogs in the neighborhood. We usually meet up after work in a field w/ about 4 to 5 other dog owners and let our dogs play ball, sniff crotch, and bite each others necks and stuff.... My dog happens to be the quickest of the bunch and when ever there is a ball that is tossed....My dog will aggressively chase to fetch it. All the other dogs know that there is now way in hell that they can outrun my dog...Even with a head start....Hence they all give up. From a running standpoint, the neighborhood dogs are outclassed. Now if I take my dog to the dog park where there are 100 other dogs, she shribbles up and loses a lot of her speed (runs about 80% of her capacity) cause I guess she feel intimidated (out classed?).

[so.cal.fan]

Gr.1:

That is very interesting about the dogs. We have a large dog park in my town.....I'm going to watch for this.
I have always enjoyed Hollywood Park's paddock.
It is large and open.....you can watch the two year olds in late Spring and Summer and see some of these horses display "alpha" behavior. You also see (more often) very passive behavior.......horses obviously intimidated by others......these are very often losers, in fact....I have never seen one win.