LIVE BANKROLL TOURNAMENTS

[TEJAS KIDD]

How many of you have played in the WSOP main event?
How many of you would put up $10,000 for a live bankroll handicapping event?

WSOP
10,000 ENTRY FEE
Play for hours and hours and still walk out empty handed.
Only 1 person can play the cards
Bad beat wipes you out

HANDICAPPING TOURNAMENT
10,000 BUY IN
Partners/Teams encouraged
Keep your winnings regardless of finish position
Done in one day, 5 hours.
Bad beat, you can still cash and profit.
Only have to beat a couple of hundred people to make $100,000 or more

Canterbury Park and Ellis Park have had these types of tournaments (not on the $10,000 scale) and the fields have been empty. This year on BC DAY at CBY, they only had 30 entrants (of course, Minnesota, in late October, is not an easy sell).
Where are all the horseplayers? These types of tournaments can yield PICK 6 type scores and all you have to do is have a good day at the track (no need to nail all 6 winners) One guy won a CBY tournament betting strictly to show.

Respond if you would consider playing in a tournament like this. I am not selling anything. I am interested in seeing what people think. All I want is OUR game to expand, like poker has.

[Kelso]

HANDICAPPING TOURNAMENT
10,000 BUY IN
Partners/Teams encouraged
Keep your winnings regardless of finish position
Done in one day, 5 hours.
Bad beat, you can still cash and profit.
Only have to beat a couple of hundred people to make $100,000 or more

Canterbury Park and Ellis Park have had these types of tournaments


Do tracks pay prize money from the (presumably) increased take they realize from getting the high-rolling competitors to bet on their races? If so, I hope none of them are in the habit of denouncing rebate shops.

(And to answer your question ... if I had the bucks and acumen to bet heavily, I would certainly be attracted to this sort of contest.)

[FlyinLate]

Coast Casinos hosts the Horse Player World Series.
Pretty sure it's 1k to enter and a ton of players.

[Tom Barrister]

Yes, I've played in the WSOP main event. The $10,000 entry fee was won from what's called a "super satellite," which cost $225 to enter (I didn't rebuy). In the main event, I went out about five hours into Day 1 when my flopped set ran into a larger one.

I've played once at the Gold Coast Summer Classic, wasn't close to the money.

[icebak]

Yes, I would be interested, at a much lower buy-in of course. Say $50-200. Let me know what you were thinking in terms of scale?

[harnesslover]

How many of you have played in the WSOP main event?
How many of you would put up $10,000 for a live bankroll handicapping event?

WSOP
10,000 ENTRY FEE
Play for hours and hours and still walk out empty handed.
Only 1 person can play the cards
Bad beat wipes you out

HANDICAPPING TOURNAMENT
10,000 BUY IN
Partners/Teams encouraged
Keep your winnings regardless of finish position
Done in one day, 5 hours.
Bad beat, you can still cash and profit.
Only have to beat a couple of hundred people to make $100,000 or more

Canterbury Park and Ellis Park have had these types of tournaments (not on the $10,000 scale) and the fields have been empty. This year on BC DAY at CBY, they only had 30 entrants (of course, Minnesota, in late October, is not an easy sell).
Where are all the horseplayers? These types of tournaments can yield PICK 6 type scores and all you have to do is have a good day at the track (no need to nail all 6 winners) One guy won a CBY tournament betting strictly to show.

Respond if you would consider playing in a tournament like this. I am not selling anything. I am interested in seeing what people think. All I want is OUR game to expand, like poker has.

You left one thing out - Total prize money for championship of handicapping - $1 million.

Winning share of 2007 WSOP - $8.1 million

[TEJAS KIDD]

You left one thing out - Total prize money for championship of handicapping - $1 million.

Winning share of 2007 WSOP - $8.1 million


8.1 million but you have to beat out thousands of players, over many days. Sure it's a nice pay day, but a pipe dream for many.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Do tracks pay prize money from the (presumably) increased take they realize from getting the high-rolling competitors to bet on their races? If so, I hope none of them are in the habit of denouncing rebate shops.

(And to answer your question ... if I had the bucks and acumen to bet heavily, I would certainly be attracted to this sort of contest.)


Hollywood Park had a tournament in July. 100,000 1st prize(winner take all).
No entry fee. Buy in for 7500. Had to play minimum 400 a race over two day period. They only had 48 entries.
Hollywood took the hit for the purse money. I'm sure more tracks would do this sort of thing. All we have to do is show up. Unfortunately no one is showing up.

[harnesslover]

8.1 million but you have to beat out thousands of players, over many days. Sure it's a nice pay day, but a pipe dream for many.

Point being that if you get to the final table, you are talking about a lifechanging event. If you win the handicapping challenge, its a nice start of a college fund.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Yes, I've played in the WSOP main event. The $10,000 entry fee was won from what's called a "super satellite," which cost $225 to enter (I didn't rebuy). In the main event, I went out about five hours into Day 1 when my flopped set ran into a larger one.

I've played once at the Gold Coast Summer Classic, wasn't close to the money.


Would you play in a satellite tournament to get into a bigger handicapping tournament?

[TEJAS KIDD]

Point being that if you get to the final table, you are talking about a lifechanging event. If you win the handicapping challenge, its a nice start of a college fund.

Yes, I agree, BUT....
What are the odds of a non professional poker player making it to the final table? 2000-1?? 1000-1?? 500-1?? Multiply that by $10,000

Also, you put your 10k up at the WSOP and it's gone unless you make it to a paying spot.

What are the odds of a non professional horseplayer having a good day at the track? Even money?

At a live bankroll tournament, you put your 10k up and maybe you have a decent day. Maybe you win a $1000. You walk out of the track with $11,000. You didn't get into a paying spot but you still walked out with your money.

[stu]

The only real money tourney that I ever competed in was at the Cal-Neva in Reno. It was a four day tourneyment. Everybody started with $500. On each day you had to bet 10% of your starting day bankroll each on ten wagers.

I enjoyed the format despite being 13th on day 3 and finishing with zero on day 4.

I don't think that the Cal-Neva had another tournament with that format since.

[harnesslover]

Yes, I agree, BUT....
What are the odds of a non professional poker player making it to the final table? 2000-1?? 1000-1?? 500-1?? Multiply that by $10,000

Also, you put your 10k up at the WSOP and it's gone unless you make it to a paying spot.

What are the odds of a non professional horseplayer having a good day at the track? Even money?

At a live bankroll tournament, you put your 10k up and maybe you have a decent day. Maybe you win a $1000. You walk out of the track with $11,000. You didn't get into a paying spot but you still walked out with your money.

Hey, you are the one asking why the WSOP is so popular and why handicapping tournaments are not. I am giving you likely reasons.

[TEJAS KIDD]

The only real money tourney that I ever competed in was at the Cal-Neva in Reno. It was a four day tourneyment. Everybody started with $500. On each day you had to bet 10% of your starting day bankroll each on ten wagers.

I enjoyed the format despite being 13th on day 3 and finishing with zero on day 4.

I don't think that the Cal-Neva had another tournament with that format since.

I actually played in one of those tournaments with my dad when I was 18 (once I got the tournament badge, I had the run of the casino, never got carded)
THis year, Bay Meadows and Santa Anita had tournaments with that format.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Hey, you are the one asking why the WSOP is so popular and why handicapping tournaments are not. I am giving you likely reasons.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. It makes me ill everytime I turn on the TV and see poker tournaments
That's why I'm trying to push handicapping tournaments. I think there's more value.

[harnesslover]

Yes, I understand what you're saying. It makes me ill everytime I turn on the TV and see poker tournaments
That's why I'm trying to push handicapping tournaments. I think there's more value.

Well there are also some other things to take into consideration:

1) There are a LOT more poker players out there thank handicappers

2) Poker can be played any time of day, any day of the year, virtually every type of game - Horses cannot.

3) After watching guys like Moneymaker and Jamie Gold win the WSOP, there are millions of average joes that think they have a shot too. Quick.. name me the winner of the last 3 World Series of handicapping events.. Name me one..

4) There are a TON of poker sites and forums that teach people how to win at poker (probabilities, stack management, etc..), there are no horseracing sites that I know of that do this.

Bottom line is horseracing does a horrid job of marketing, of educating people and of spreading the word about it's marquee events. Poker is everywhere.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Bottom line is horseracing does a horrid job of marketing, of educating people and of spreading the word about it's marquee events. Poker is everywhere.


I couldn't agree more. Makes me sick.

Here's some irony.
This summer when Lava Man's groom lost his arm in a car accident, Lava Man's owners, and Doug and Dennis O'neill held a benefit poker tournament. They raised over 100k for him.

[harnesslover]

I've always been a big proponent of having a monthly or quarterly free handicapping education 'class' for anyone that wants to attend..

I mean have someone like Brohammer or Quinn or any industry 'pro', pay them a grand and have them put together a day long seminar for whoever wants to go.

I mean $4 grand a year to help educate fans? Even if you get some newbies hooked, you recoup that 10 fold in wagers, concessions and programs.

I wonder if this was ever attempted and if so, if it failed.

[TEJAS KIDD]

In my opinion, most American gambler's are stupid and lazy. They would rather play the lottery or slot machines. Now everyone wants to play poker. Poker is not an easy game to master, but it is easy to learn the basics.
Royal Flush, Straight flush, 4 of a kind, full house....


It's not so easy teaching someone to read and analyze the program/drf.

I think that's where horse racing is failing. It's noone's fault. It's our "GET RICH QUICK" society where everyone wants to do as little as possible for as much as possible in as little as time as possible.

[harnesslover]

In my opinion, most American gambler's are stupid and lazy. They would rather play the lottery or slot machines. Now everyone wants to play poker. Poker is not an easy game to master, but it is easy to learn the basics.
Royal Flush, Straight flush, 4 of a kind, full house....


It's not so easy teaching someone to read and analyze the program/drf.

I think that's where horse racing is failing. It's noone's fault. It's our "GET RICH QUICK" society where everyone wants to do as little as possible for as much as possible in as little as time as possible.

I agree with that, to a point.

Don't forget one thing though - the public perception is that horseracing is rigged with cheating, drugs, etc... And let's face it, there is some truth to that.

From a non-fan persepctive, in order to try to win I need to learn how to read pps, compare horses, check connections, THEN hope that a) my jockey gives a good ride, b) the other 'lesser' horses aren't juiced, c) my trainer is trying to win this particular race,etc...

Of course there is a human element in poker, but the big difference is that the amount of variables are limited. This hand beats this hand, you get 2 cards in your hand, 5 on the board and best hand wins.

Obviously there is strategy in poker, but if you consistently play well at poker, you have a good chance to profit longterm. Horses - I cannot say the same.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Obviously there is strategy in poker, but if you consistently play well at poker, you have a good chance to profit longterm. Horses - I cannot say the same.


I disagree with that. I've consistently played well at the horses and I have had long term success. It's been 14 years. I've had, maybe, 3 losing race meets(dam Lone Star) in the last 10 years. Sure there is cheating in the game and sure there are juicers, but playing the horses is about the wagering. It's not about the horses, trainers, or jockeys, they are the "deck of cards." This game is about the value of your plays. Sure there are horses that win that you can't explain, but for the most part, a majority of the horses that win figure in one form or another. It's what you, the player, does to come to the right conclusion. It's all about educating yourself. We are wagering against eachother. We're not taking the racetrack's money, were taking eachother's money. If I'm more educated than you on my circuit, then in the long run, I'm going to take your money.

[shanta]

Well there are also some other things to take into consideration:

1) There are a LOT more poker players out there thank handicappers

2) Poker can be played any time of day, any day of the year, virtually every type of game - Horses cannot.

3) After watching guys like Moneymaker and Jamie Gold win the WSOP, there are millions of average joes that think they have a shot too. Quick.. name me the winner of the last 3 World Series of handicapping events.. Name me one..

4) There are a TON of poker sites and forums that teach people how to win at poker (probabilities, stack management, etc..), there are no horseracing sites that I know of that do this.

Bottom line is horseracing does a horrid job of marketing, of educating people and of spreading the word about it's marquee events. Poker is everywhere.


1 more "item" for consideration in my opinion is the takeout. Approaching 30% on some wagers and minimum of 15% on win betting has definitely turned off many potential serious players to the racing game.

Add the current ADW chaos and the picture darkens even more

[harnesslover]

I disagree with that. I've consistently played well at the horses and I have had long term success. It's been 14 years. I've had, maybe, 3 losing race meets(dam Lone Star) in the last 10 years. Sure there is cheating in the game and sure there are juicers, but playing the horses is about the wagering. It's not about the horses, trainers, or jockeys, they are the "deck of cards." This game is about the value of your plays. Sure there are horses that win that you can't explain, but for the most part, a majority of the horses that win figure in one form or another. It's what you, the player, does to come to the right conclusion. It's all about educating yourself. We are wagering against eachother. We're not taking the racetrack's money, were taking eachother's money. If I'm more educated than you on my circuit, then in the long run, I'm going to take your money.

But that's you, you probably put in the time to win at horseracing. I can tell you it is MUCH easier to profit making poker, as there are a LOT of bad players and a LOT of places to find these bad players.

[harnesslover]

1 more "item" for consideration in my opinion is the takeout. Approaching 30% on some wagers and minimum of 15% on win betting has definitely turned off many potential serious players to the racing game.

Add the current ADW chaos and the picture darkens even more

Excellent point.. The rake in poker is typically under 5%

[shanta]

It's not so easy teaching someone to read and analyze the program/drf.

I think that's where horse racing is failing. It's noone's fault. It's our "GET RICH QUICK" society where everyone wants to do as little as possible for as much as possible in as little as time as possible.


Catch 22 here maybe.

It is virtually non existent to find a winner who "gives back" in the form of teaching others how to win or at least an opportunity to win.Mentoring is a joke for the most part when dealing with new or relatively new players.

So they are left with learning all the "old hossy" sayings/beliefs of what "everyone" knows to be true regarding racing. Unfortunately for them that is losing information because the "everyone" part is made up of losers.

The catch is WHY would winners go out of their way to share stuff when they are playing and winning into pools with ridiculous takeouts man? Someone who is winning wagering into pools with 20% takeout is certainly doing something right.

Lower takeouts to 8-10% max and adopt a zero tolerance for cheaters/drug infractions and now we have a whole new ballgame and something to market to the young ones.

Richie

[harnesslover]

Catch 22 here maybe.

It is virtually non existent to find a winner who "gives back" in the form of teaching others how to win or at least an opportunity to win.Mentoring is a joke for the most part when dealing with new or relatively new players.

So they are left with learning all the "old hossy" sayings/beliefs of what "everyone" knows to be true regarding racing. Unfortunately for them that is losing information because the "everyone" part is made up of losers.

The catch is WHY would winners go out of their way to share stuff when they are playing and winning into pools with ridiculous takeouts man? Someone who is winning wagering into pools with 20% takeout is certainly doing something right.

Lower takeouts to 8-10% max and adopt a zero tolerance for cheaters/drug infractions and now we have a whole new ballgame and something to market to the young ones.

Richie

Man Richie, I would vote for you if you ran for any horseracing office!!

I think Sam Houston and Retama are close to doing it right with the 12% pick 3's.. What a fantastic wager..

[advancedcapper]

Where are they. I have never seen these. I've lost the Delaware Park contest three straight times when my final pick lost. Once by a nose to a 45-1 shot. Once by a head to a 6/5 shot and once I think my horse was hypnotized into thinking he was a turtle.

I just pick 5-6 horses of the 40-50 races they let you bet and make place paylays and then a big win bet at the end. i have to filter in some $20 bets after the first 3 win to make up for the rules of playing 10 races, but that is my way. Can't seem to get over the top.

ac

[TEJAS KIDD]

Catch 22 here maybe.

It is virtually non existent to find a winner who "gives back" in the form of teaching others how to win or at least an opportunity to win.Mentoring is a joke for the most part when dealing with new or relatively new players.

So they are left with learning all the "old hossy" sayings/beliefs of what "everyone" knows to be true regarding racing. Unfortunately for them that is losing information because the "everyone" part is made up of losers.

The catch is WHY would winners go out of their way to share stuff when they are playing and winning into pools with ridiculous takeouts man? Someone who is winning wagering into pools with 20% takeout is certainly doing something right.

Lower takeouts to 8-10% max and adopt a zero tolerance for cheaters/drug infractions and now we have a whole new ballgame and something to market to the young ones.

Richie

In response to paragraph 1.
I don't know why I feel the need to teach players that would in turn be competing against me. Maybe I feel the game won't survive without more serious players.

I understand and agree with the postive sides of Poker. I just can't play that game and I guess that's why I am anti poker. To me poker is too much of a grind and I don't like being in control. I feel I'm in control when I'm playing the horses.

As far as your last paragraph, "ditto" (is that redundant). We know it won't happen, noone in the racing industry has the balls enough to do it. I wish I owned and/or ran a racing association. I'm sick of them protecting the trainers and owners. Without us there is no game. I wish one track would drop the takeout % and each and everyone of us got together and only played that track.

[advancedcapper]

There are three problems with teaching newbies.

1) How can i teach what took me years and years to SEE and LEARN in a short time.

2) I try it all the time and people join into the conversation and ridicule, start trouble and otherwise, while adding no value to the original post.

3) Most people (not all) don't understand and aren't willing to listen when something they hear isn't one of their losing habits.

Since I've been here, Sally has asked some interesting questions and after my first reply, she saw many posts of NO, NOT RIGHT, THIS GUY IS CRAZY, blah, blah, blah. Well, i not only produce a profit, I WIN. Not a little, either. She obviously saw some posts and wanted in on the profit, but how can someone asking for help deal with the ones who ridicule just to read their own posts? I talk about class and pace and am answered with "How can you be serious when there is no class at Phila and Delaware Park"? Come on. Narrow minds bet narrow horses. Go to the OTB and leave the REAL players who want to get some insight alone.

Can anyone dispute these facts???

ac

[TEJAS KIDD]

Don't forget about the 4% Pick 4's at Ellis Park. Ron Geary, Ellis Parks owner, is a horseplayer and avid tournament player. It's too bad that Ellis is only open for 2 months a year.

Advancedcapper,
There are a few live bankroll tournaments a year. Ellis Park had one on Claiming Crown day. Canterbury Park has one on Breeders Cup day. Hollywood Park, Del Mar and Santa Anita all did one this year. Hopefully more tracks will follow.

[advancedcapper]

That is why harnesslover is on my ignore list.

THEREARE ONLY TWO FORMS OF GAMBLING WHERE ONE CAN HAVE AN EDGE.

POKER & HORSES.

WHY???

BECAUSE YOU PLAY AGAINST THE OTHER PLAYERS IN THE GAME AND THE TAKE, WHEATHER IT BE THE BUY-IN AT POKER OT THE TAKE AT THE TRACK DOESN'T MEAN A THING IF YOU ARE THAT MUCH SMARTER THAN YOUR COMPETITION. (THE OTHER PLAYERS)

HORSES IS OBVIOUSLY EASIER, AS YOU HAVE MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE CLUELESS TO OUTSNART INSTEAD OF 5 OTHER GUYS.

ac

[harnesslover]

That is why harnesslover is on my ignore list.

THEREARE ONLY TWO FORMS OF GAMBLING WHERE ONE CAN HAVE AN EDGE.

POKER & HORSES.

WHY???

BECAUSE YOU PLAY AGAINST THE OTHER PLAYERS IN THE GAME AND THE TAKE, WHEATHER IT BE THE BUY-IN AT POKER OT THE TAKE AT THE TRACK DOESN'T MEAN A THING IF YOU ARE THAT MUCH SMARTER THAN YOUR COMPETITION. (THE OTHER PLAYERS)

HORSES IS OBVIOUSLY EASIER, AS YOU HAVE MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE CLUELESS TO OUTSNART INSTEAD OF 5 OTHER GUYS.

ac

Wow, on an ignore list b/c I like poker. Now thats a new one :D:D:D

[Kelso]

4) There are a TON of poker sites and forums that teach people how to win at poker (probabilities, stack management, etc..)


Can you identify any sites that actually achieve the teaching/learning objective? Every site I've tried is worthless because it's not real money. Players go all in every other hand, tap out, get more play money and go back to the tables. No learning to be had there.

Seriously, please share the names of any sites that you have seen runnig effective training tables.

Thank you.

[advancedcapper]

You are on my ignore list because you are an ass and every post, including this one has a tone of rudness and ignorance to it.

I said that POKER & HORSES are the only to forms of gambling a player can have an edge at. BUt, you in your great wisdom, found a way to irritate anyway.

Your "ignore" was short lived, as i have now placed you back.

Ridicule me through other posts as you have been doing.

I don't know why they let guys like you hang around.

It's very, very simple. POST a few horses and let's see what you got.

ac

[GaryG]

Your "ignore" was short lived, as i have now placed you back. A truly magnanimous gesture.....:lol: :lol: :lol:

[boomman]

Do tracks pay prize money from the (presumably) increased take they realize from getting the high-rolling competitors to bet on their races? If so, I hope none of them are in the habit of denouncing rebate shops.

(And to answer your question ... if I had the bucks and acumen to bet heavily, I would certainly be attracted to this sort of contest.)

Kelso: The answer to your question is yes, as "Live" bankroll tournaments not only are much better for the player, (greatly reduces guys taking ridiculous shots race after race that basically have NOTHING to do with handicapping) they do significantly increase handle, so racetracks are willing to host them and add money to them. This year at Yavapai we had our 2nd annual "live" bankroll qualifier for the Horseplayer World Series (keep in mind the Horse Player World Series itself is NOT a live bankroll tournament) with a $400 live bankroll and $100 entry fee in which $75 from each entry went in the prize pool (the other $25 took care of free buffets for the players and extra personnel added for the tournament) along with $2000 added by the track and horsemen. We had 72 entries (not bad, but was hoping for more), and even though I really like this idea of a $10,000 WSOHP (World Series of Horse Players) and I would commit to play in it, without super satellites it would not attract a lot of players. We need to set it up like poker does where guys would have access to qualifying for it via a "satellite" system , as is done for the eventual thousands of players who end up in the WSOP, where like Tom Barrister did, they invest a little to try to make it to the "dance". I don't know what the numbers are, but would estimate that way over 50% of those guys that play won their spots via satellite. Also, someone asked what the odds of a non-professional player winning the tournament were? I don't know those odds, but can tell you that the last 4 winners, Chris Moneymaker, Greg Raymer (who used to play 3-6 limit holdem at a club I worked at in Oceanside when he was in law school) Jamie Gold, and Jerry Yang (who has played poker less than 2 years) were ALL amateurs when they won. Raymer has gone on to become a professional player, but the the other 3 will just be forgotten trivia* questions in the future LOL.:)

Boomer

[harnesslover]

Can you identify any sites that actually achieve the teaching/learning objective? Every site I've tried is worthless because it's not real money. Players go all in every other hand, tap out, get more play money and go back to the tables. No learning to be had there.

Seriously, please share the names of any sites that you have seen runnig effective training tables.

Thank you.

Fulltilt is pretty good. They have a lot of learning tools. Plus there are a ton of sites that allow you to use poker calculators.

And for a cheap hands-on try, play in all the free tournaments you can. Yes you still have idiots that go all in every time, but for the most part, after you weed out the trash, you will be playing some real poker. You could play free tournaments virtually every night through a few sites.

Pokerstars has a lot of free tournaments as well.

[harnesslover]

You are on my ignore list because you are an ass and every post, including this one has a tone of rudness and ignorance to it.

I said that POKER & HORSES are the only to forms of gambling a player can have an edge at. BUt, you in your great wisdom, found a way to irritate anyway.

Your "ignore" was short lived, as i have now placed you back.

Ridicule me through other posts as you have been doing.

I don't know why they let guys like you hang around.

It's very, very simple. POST a few horses and let's see what you got.

ac

Guy, I didn't respond to any of your posts in this thread, so not sure what's got your panties in a bunch. I simply explained why poker was more popular than horseracing handicapping tournaments.

Not exactly sure where I ridiculed you or anything you have posted. But help me see the light.

[TEJAS KIDD]

BOOMER,


Nice post. I was glad to read it and glad to hear about the Yavapai tournament. I agree about the super satellite tournaments. 100 people, 100 bucks, winner gets the trip.
Frankly, I am bored with the NTRA/NHC tournament. I'm bored with the Coast tournaments, too. A bunch of guys sitting around firing at longshots. The one with the most longshots, wins. I know lots of successful tournament players that walk around with rabbit ears 99% of the time. Those tournaments are not reality and really do nothing for handle. I don't even play real money on the horses I use in those tournaments.

[njcurveball]

Frankly, I am bored with the NTRA/NHC tournament. I'm bored with the Coast tournaments, too. A bunch of guys sitting around firing at longshots. The one with the most longshots, wins.

I hear this from lots of people, but would you rather come to Jersey and play against people who are "all in" from their first bet?

At Monmouth where it was rainy and dreadful weather, 195 entrants started with a $200 bankroll and with only 3 tracks (Aqueduct, Keeneland, Monmouth), 10 of them more than tripled it.

10th place was $918, 5th place was $1,411!

That was not even close to the top 4. 3rd and 4th had over $3,000! The top 2 had over $5,000!

25 times the starting bankroll! Would you say these handicappers are tons better than the ones winning at the Coast and NHC tourneys?

It is similar to having 100 guys go to the WSOP and just play ALL IN every hand. One of them may get lucky and win 4 or 5 in a row. Is he then the best there?

Do you think it takes more skill to have 5 or 6 bombs in 3 days or hit 3 or 4 races in a row going "all in"? Over time as more and more people go "all in", there will always be one or two lucky enough to hit a few winners in a row. So money management becomes a non issue.

I understand where you are coming from, but other than personal taste, you could ask 10 handicappers to design the optimal format and get 10 different answers?

As far as track handle goes, most live money tourneys are becoming more and more "all in" each year. So it probably does give a bump for that day. Unfortunately, long term, many of these players do not rush back in to another contest after going broke in 2 or 3 of them.

As time goes on, live money tourney attendance dwindles. I know you go to Connecticut, how are they doing since they went to the new format? Last I heard they were not getting the overflow of interest and had to allow 2 entries to each contestant just to try to fill.

Jim

[TEJAS KIDD]

I hear this from lots of people, but would you rather come to Jersey and play against people who are "all in" from their first bet?

At Monmouth where it was rainy and dreadful weather, 195 entrants started with a $200 bankroll and with only 3 tracks (Aqueduct, Keeneland, Monmouth), 10 of them more than tripled it.

10th place was $918, 5th place was $1,411!

That was not even close to the top 4. 3rd and 4th had over $3,000! The top 2 had over $5,000!

25 times the starting bankroll! Would you say these handicappers are tons better than the ones winning at the Coast and NHC tourneys?

It is similar to having 100 guys go to the WSOP and just play ALL IN every hand. One of them may get lucky and win 4 or 5 in a row. Is he then the best there?

Do you think it takes more skill to have 5 or 6 bombs in 3 days or hit 3 or 4 races in a row going "all in"? Over time as more and more people go "all in", there will always be one or two lucky enough to hit a few winners in a row. So money management becomes a non issue.

I understand where you are coming from, but other than personal taste, you could ask 10 handicappers to design the optimal format and get 10 different answers?

As far as track handle goes, most live money tourneys are becoming more and more "all in" each year. So it probably does give a bump for that day. Unfortunately, long term, many of these players do not rush back in to another contest after going broke in 2 or 3 of them.

As time goes on, live money tourney attendance dwindles. I know you go to Connecticut, how are they doing since they went to the new format? Last I heard they were not getting the overflow of interest and had to allow 2 entries to each contestant just to try to fill.

Jim


The answer to your 1st question is YES, ABSOLUTELY.
Isnt that what you're supposed to do with your money. If you have the confidence to go all in on a horse, arent you supposed to play him. It's not like they did it blindly. I'm sure the all in was justified. Are you supposed to sit on your money and bet $10 per race? Or bet the $200 on something you really like?
The thing about live bankroll contests, is you are never out of it. When I was at Hollywood in July, Bob Bone hit the 1st two races for $45,000. I grinded away and grinded away, then finally nailed the tri on the last race to catch him.
At the NTRA tournament. If you go 0 for on day one, you are pretty much done. On NHC qualify, if the 1st two races were bombs, then you have to chase longshots all day. You end up playing the longest shot on the board whether he has a chance or not. You wouldn't do that with real money.
The recent CBY tournament on BC Day, Bobbie Templin was down to less than a hundred dollars, and hit the last two trifectas. She turned her B/roll into 3000+ and won the tournament.
In the Autotote tournament in July my partner and I went broke with the $30 bankroll on day one. On day 2, I liked a 50-1 and we had $2 to win on it. Later on we ended up cashing a win bet on a chalk to build our bankroll up some more, then we topped it off late with a $40 place bet on a 30-1 shot to win the tournament.
You CANNOT win a structured win/place formatted tournament playing chalk(unless all of the races are mandatory and chalk happens to win every race). You have to catch longshots. In live bankroll tournaments, you have the chance to win basing your plays on your confidence levels on chalk/and or longshots.
If players go all in and cash, you can still catch them.

In response to questions 2 and 3, I wasnt stating that winners of live bankroll tournaments are better than winners of stuctured tournaments or vice versa. That wasn't my point. What I was saying is that in my opinion, live bankroll tournaments are more realistic to the real gambling world than those structured tournaments. Like I said before, I've ended up playing horses in those tournaments that I wouldnt put real money on if you held the proverbial gun to my head.
Money management is always an issue in live bankroll tournaments. Sure there are the players that can go all in and hit, but they are never out of reach. It was my money management that kept me in the game at Hollywood, which enabled me to make my dramatic finish.

In response to question 4. I agree with you 100%. Everyone has their own tastes.

The thing I don't understand about players, is if a track is holding a tournament, and it's a live bankroll with no entry fee and they are giving away money and you're at the track anyway and you have the money in your pocket to enter, then why on earth would you not enter.

[njcurveball]

You CANNOT win a structured win/place formatted tournament playing chalk(unless all of the races are mandatory and chalk happens to win every race). You have to catch longshots. .

YES! Exactly my point. In my mind better handicappers hit these horses and ignore the favorites.

We can see the same Mountain from different sides. Your style fits with "all in" tourneys.

To say "isn't that what you are supposed to do". I guess from a gambling stand point it is. I doubt many professionals are going "all in" every day, so it depends on what perspective you want.

As for people who are on track, many do not want to go broke, so why enter a tournament with your $200 when it will $5,000 to win! AND that is just win and place betting!

I know many tournament players that do not even enter those any more. I am content if I turn my $200 into $1,000. Why should I pay another $200 to try to chase $5,000? And then the leader will probably go "all in" again.

On my side of the Mountain, no caps simply mean the guy with the biggest pockets and the most entries wins more than he should.

Jim

[TEJAS KIDD]

To say "isn't that what you are supposed to do". I guess from a gambling stand point it is. I doubt many professionals are going "all in" every day, so it depends on what perspective you want.

Jim

I don't go ALL IN every day. What I was saying is that if you have the confidence in a horse, you're supposed to show it with your wager. Why would you want to sit around playing J,10 all day, when you have a pair of Aces in the hole?

The beginning of this thread was about putting up 10,000 to BUY IN to a high payout tournament. There was no mention of entry fee. That is what my point is, Why would you go to the track and not enter, if you have the bankroll and are going to play anyway, Why not take the shot at the free money (examples are the Hollywood and Del Mar tournaments)

[Pace Cap'n]

Can you identify any sites that actually achieve the teaching/learning objective? Every site I've tried is worthless because it's not real money. Players go all in every other hand, tap out, get more play money and go back to the tables. No learning to be had there.

Seriously, please share the names of any sites that you have seen runnig effective training tables.

Thank you.

IMO, you cannot learn much from play money games. Playing for cash at the micro levels is not expensive and much more educational. Probably the best book for entry level players is "Small Stakes Hold-em" by Sklansky. Doyle's book (Super System II) is good too.

Also, there are educational websites that give lessons taught by proven winners. I have not signed up for one, but am giving this one some serious thought...

www.pokerxfactor.com/ (http://www.pokerxfactor.com/)

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know why they let guys like you hang around.It's ironic you should state this...wanna know why?

[jma]

As far as your last paragraph, "ditto" (is that redundant). We know it won't happen, noone in the racing industry has the balls enough to do it. I wish I owned and/or ran a racing association. I'm sick of them protecting the trainers and owners. Without us there is no game. I wish one track would drop the takeout % and each and everyone of us got together and only played that track.

This year there were two examples:

Ellis Park dropped the takeout on the Pick 4 to 4%. Handle went way up, but the lost money that meet because they weren't being carried by enough simulcast outlets (whatever side of the ADW dispute they were on, I don't know).

Laurel cut their takeout for their abbreviated fall meet---handle actually went down. Of course there are other explanations for that, but it would have been better if it went up, right?

[jma]

I've always been a big proponent of having a monthly or quarterly free handicapping education 'class' for anyone that wants to attend..

I mean have someone like Brohammer or Quinn or any industry 'pro', pay them a grand and have them put together a day long seminar for whoever wants to go.

I mean $4 grand a year to help educate fans? Even if you get some newbies hooked, you recoup that 10 fold in wagers, concessions and programs.

I wonder if this was ever attempted and if so, if it failed.

I'm pretty sure Hawthorne held this type of class regularly at one point...maybe someone from that area can correct me. Sam Houston has them too.

[Robert Fischer]

they didn't give "poker classes" , they put the crap on tv repeatedly (which was an investment with inherent risk) , and they "sold" the game to the masses through MASS MEDIA. You would have thought if poker wanted a million new "fans", they could have just installed slot machines at places where poker is played. Or how about paying each other to install a rubber flooring at the poker halls?? Thats how racing does it. It takes a 3rd party like HRTv OR TVG to half-fill a gaping hole in the industry and Racing's answer is slots,rubbers, and restricting international gambling through laws rather than competition?? You have a bunch of idiots running racing , and they all look at their little piece of the action and act with fear and blind conservatism.

anyway...
If I had a sponsor, I would gladly enter Live-bankroll tournaments where you keep your winnings. I would even wear a shirt and hat that says "yum brands" or "tvg" during play... Unfortunately this is worth about a cup of coffee for a non televised event.

[equicom]

$10k seems a little steep to me as an initial buy-in.

What I think would work would be to use a grading system. So you have a regional competion with say a $1000 buy in (lower would be better). If you finish in, say, the top 10 for that you move on to a tri-state competition that has a $5000 buy in (if any player did not want to participate, then the 11th best person is offered the chance, if they turn it down it passes to the 12th best and so on). If you finish in the top 10 of the tri-state you move on to the national competition with a $10000 buy in. This has 3 effects:

1. It means only the "best of the best" make it to the national level
2. It makes it more exciting and more of a spectacle
3. It ensures there is more money on offer

The hard part would be the administration side of things, particularly at the lower levels. But I think it would work. Also with a tri-state system, you end up with about 180 players once it reaches the national level, so plenty of cash will be there for the winning.

[TEJAS KIDD]

I'm pretty sure Hawthorne held this type of class regularly at one point...maybe someone from that area can correct me. Sam Houston has them too.

I've never heard of Sam Houston having any classes.

[TEJAS KIDD]

I was thinking that tracks should, instead of having their crappy wallet giveaways with the mystery vouchers, have a meet long contest that gets people in the door (instead of doing the online SHOWVIVOR),Why not have on-track patrons competing. Shouldnt they be rewarding their everyday live patrons instead? The winner of the meet long contest gets the trip to the big handicapping tournament. How hard could it be to set up a SAM machine to track a players wagers through the tracking card. Everyday you go to the track, you get to make one mythical wager on the SAM. One with the highest ROI, wins the trip. That would get me to the track everyday, even if it were to just put in my pick.

[jma]

I've never heard of Sam Houston having any classes.

There was a poster on here named Purple Power, I think he still shows up now and then. Good guy. He used to run handicapping seminars there---maybe you consider those different than "classes"?

[BillW]

There was a poster on here named Purple Power, I think he still shows up now and then. Good guy. He used to run handicapping seminars there---maybe you consider those different than "classes"?

Sam Houston had a "Fan Education" center at the entrance where those new to the game could stop in and get a basic understanding of how the game works. It was open every live race date. Last I was up there they put a group sales office in that area and moved the education center to the back. This was a few years ago. PurplePower is now in Lexington.

[jma]

Sam Houston had a "Fan Education" center at the entrance where those new to the game could stop in and get a basic understanding of how the game works. It was open every live race date. Last I was up there they put a group sales office in that area and moved the education center to the back. This was a few years ago. PurplePower is now in Lexington.

Oh okay---thanks for the update Bill.

[TEJAS KIDD]

Now I remember. His name was REID MCLELLAN. Former trainer, and I believe one the founders of the GROOM ELITE program. I never met him personally, but did email him a time or two. Nice guy. I don't think they have the seminars anymore or the fan education center either. Budget cuts, I guess. Sure, get rid of the guy that can educate the customer and keep the handle CHURNING.

[BillW]

Now I remember. His name was REID MCLELLAN. Former trainer, and I believe one the founders of the GROOM ELITE program. I never met him personally, but did email him a time or two. Nice guy. I don't think they have the seminars anymore or the fan education center either. Budget cuts, I guess. Sure, get rid of the guy that can educate the customer and keep the handle CHURNING.

I just had breakfast with him last week. Still running the Groom Elite program and still a great guy. And yes - group sales is MUCH more important than fan education :faint: .

[TEJAS KIDD]

BILLW,

Let me know if you're going to opening night next week. I may be going, I may have a horse in that night. Check the entries, WILD SCREEN, if she's in I'll be there.

[BillW]

BILLW,

Let me know if you're going to opening night next week. I may be going, I may have a horse in that night. Check the entries, WILD SCREEN, if she's in I'll be there.

I'll watch for her!

[boomman]

Sam Houston had a "Fan Education" center at the entrance where those new to the game could stop in and get a basic understanding of how the game works. It was open every live race date. Last I was up there they put a group sales office in that area and moved the education center to the back. This was a few years ago. PurplePower is now in Lexington.

I am always careful to simply participate in this forum and do not want to come across as "selling" myself. But as Bill W knows, (because he's read my books that he won in a contest here a few months ago), I DO teach handicapping and even though that's not my prime source of income, feel that by doing so I am helping the sport. Fan education is not dead, but unfortunately you have to look for it:)

Boomer

[njcurveball]

This year there were two examples:

Ellis Park dropped the takeout on the Pick 4 to 4%. Handle went way up, but the lost money that meet because they weren't being carried by enough simulcast outlets (whatever side of the ADW dispute they were on, I don't know).



I doubt you can call less than $50,000 a day a success on this bet.

http://www.ellisparkracing.com/media/Documents/Pick-4%20Payoff%208.22.pdf

Also, I don't see how you can call a 15% drop in average handle a success either?

http://m.courier-journal.com/news.jsp?key=106877

Average daily all-sources betting dropped from $2.4 million to below $2.1 million, according to the track in Henderson, Ky.

[Kelso]

Fulltilt is pretty good. They have a lot of learning tools. Plus there are a ton of sites that allow you to use poker calculators.

And for a cheap hands-on try, play in all the free tournaments you can. Yes you still have idiots that go all in every time, but for the most part, after you weed out the trash, you will be playing some real poker. You could play free tournaments virtually every night through a few sites.

Pokerstars has a lot of free tournaments as well.


Thank you ... gonna try your suggestions.

[Kelso]

IMO, you cannot learn much from play money games. Playing for cash at the micro levels is not expensive and much more educational. Probably the best book for entry level players is "Small Stakes Hold-em" by Sklansky. Doyle's book (Super System II) is good too.

Also, there are educational websites that give lessons taught by proven winners. I have not signed up for one, but am giving this one some serious thought...

www.pokerxfactor.com/ (http://www.pokerxfactor.com/)


Thank you for your recommendations, Cap'n. Appreciate the book recs, in particular.