synthetic surfaces=slow races, right?

[rgustafson]

All the bitching and whining about how synthetic surfaces are ruining racing by robbing thoroughbreds of their speed can now be put to rest. Just check out the results at Santa Anita the last two days. Yesterday, a new track record at six furlongs of 107 1/5 seconds and today two six furlong races run at 107 2/5 seconds. These were not Breeders Cup type horses running these times.

[jonnielu]

All the bitching and whining about how synthetic surfaces are ruining racing by robbing thoroughbreds of their speed can now be put to rest. Just check out the results at Santa Anita the last two days. Yesterday, a new track record at six furlongs of 107 1/5 seconds and today two six furlong races run at 107 2/5 seconds. These were not Breeders Cup type horses running these times.

Don't you get it? Now you said yourself that these aren't Breeders Cup types. That makes it obvious, any idiot could see that this is a clear cut case of poly bias. Quick, get Beyer on the horn, he'll love it.:ThmbUp:

[Semipro]

All the bitching and whining about how synthetic surfaces are ruining racing by robbing thoroughbreds of their speed can now be put to rest. Just check out the results at Santa Anita the last two days. Yesterday, a new track record at six furlongs of 107 1/5 seconds and today two six furlong races run at 107 2/5 seconds. These were not Breeders Cup type horses running these times. So that's the answer to make racing safer?

[Pace Cap'n]

So that's the answer to make racing safer?

Yes. See, the faster they go, the less time they spend on the track, therefore lessening the chance of injury.

[PaceAdvantage]

All the bitching and whining about how synthetic surfaces are ruining racing by robbing thoroughbreds of their speed can now be put to rest. Just check out the results at Santa Anita the last two days. Yesterday, a new track record at six furlongs of 107 1/5 seconds and today two six furlong races run at 107 2/5 seconds. These were not Breeders Cup type horses running these times.You still don't get it....

[rgustafson]

You still don't get it....

P.A. The point I was trying to make is that these surfaces, like dirt tracks around the country, are all different. They are affected by climate and moisture as well just like dirt tracks and they will change from day to day. Horse players, long ago came up with speed figures, variants, and pars in an attempt to quantify these differences. All we heard during the Del Mar meet was ridicule over the slow times that horses were running. What I'm saying is that some of the blanket statements that have been made are premature, and that goes for the safety issue as well. Golden Gate starts its meet this coming week and if San Francisco has a typical winter, it will be interesting to see how that surface plays. Many more races need to be run on synthetic tracks in all kinds of weather conditions before meaningful conclusions can be drawn.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry for the terse reply....you didn't deserve that.....

However, it bugs me that those of us that question the wisdom of jumping head first into the Polytrack pool are lumped into nothing but simpleton speed freaks.

I really don't have any problems handicapping any type of surface as long as I have a decent track profile and model. That's not the issue for me....

The main issue for me is health and safety, and that issue not only hasn't been resolved for me, it's been amplified:

National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health Studies Jockeys (http://feeds.bloodhorse.com/~r/Bloodhorse/TopHeadlines/~3/177425231/viewstory.asp)
Exposure to lead from saddle weights and to residue from synthetic surfaces were among several concerns raised on a new topic page about jockeys' safety posted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) on their Web site, the Department of Health and Human Services division reported Oct. 29.http://feeds.bloodhorse.com/~r/Bloodhorse/TopHeadlines/~4/177425231

Also, I take issue with how quickly some of these tracks have concluded that Polytrack (or whatever artificial surface is in vogue) is the solution for them without waiting to see the long term effects of using these types of surfaces outside of where they have normally been used (mostly England I presume).

The industry has embraced Polytrack like a kid embraces presents on Christmas morning....nothing but the "give me now! I must have it now!" attitude. Dangerous and silly in my opinion. All the while rallying around the "health and safety" issue of the horses and jockeys involved.

A lightly raced 2yo broke down and died in a race at Santa Anita (artificial) a few hours before George Washington broke down and died at Monmouth (real dirt). Arlington had as many horses break down this year on their artificial as broke down on their real dirt course two years ago, according to info posted on this board.

It would be refreshing if the industry were to address some very REAL and FIXABLE problems in this game, instead of tripping all over themselves to fix something that probably wasn't broken to begin with (properly maintained dirt courses).

Many more races need to be run on synthetic tracks in all kinds of weather conditions before meaningful conclusions can be drawn.I agree completely, and just wish the industry would have agreed with you as well, and let things play out over a period of time on a handful of "test" tracks.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The way rubber tracks are "just like dirt tracks" is that they still have a hard base, sand, dirt, a 2nd turn; the sand and dirt will still compact with water and pressing.
Various types of artificial materials added to dirt tracks have been around a long time- in England with what track configuration and weather they have; on riding area floors; on Dickerson's and other training tracks; mostly I believe Tapeta and Polytrack. I doubt many tracks have had artificial mateiral that have been in the same climate as Southern Ca and have been traditionally as fast running as SoCal tracks.
There has been a couple of limited scientific studies of Poly-type material in people's lungs with no lasting ill effects.
Most of what we have ever gotten out the racing industry with the exception of Australia is very limited studies of racehorse injuries that were not meaningful to provide a full range of statistics for weather, various tracks, various types of race or horses. Almost all info racing has been willing to share even with national organizations or other tracks is single meet stats and anecdotal and never as far as I know analyzed.
Mostly what we have to work with is nationwide stats on field size, numbers in training, starts per year, that sort of thing. The most telling trends we have is 15 year consistently lower stats for starts per year and attendance.
What I as well as Ca raing has seen consistently for many years is bettors staying away from Ca, complaints about payoffs and field sizes, early speed, trainers and owners complaining about injuries and inconsistent tracks. California was down to the break-even point in handle and owners in droves were deserting Ca for other circuits. There has been various meets like the last dirt one at DM with rashes of injuries.
Meanwhile many jurisdictions have been adopting the RMTC recommendations for drug enforcement. So Ca decided to wait until other tracks had a couple of meets on rubber and then required it here, with all 3 types of tracks put in various venues. Of course they knew many like Baffert and some bettors would not like their consant early speed bias handicapping to be ineffective but they took their chances. And immediately the compaining began based on nothing more than 1 day of racing- jockeys and horses are dying of lung obstruction; can't get a winner; no formful racing, 1 horse died on the track or in the paddock, etc.
Ca and other states have in place and are using somewhat more severe punishment for cheaters, Oak Tree just had almost 20% jump in handle, early speed is doing fine at SA track. and BM is about to open with AWT.
There is no patience to wait for the industry-wide injury survey and see what is even made available; ther is no patience to wait even until all Ca rubber tracks held meets.
But I expected that in an industry that has come to be known for gearing for speed, shying away from standardization, and basing conclusions on stories.

[David-LV]

Sorry for the terse reply....you didn't deserve that.....

However, it bugs me that those of us that question the wisdom of jumping head first into the Polytrack pool are lumped into nothing but simpleton speed freaks.

I really don't have any problems handicapping any type of surface as long as I have a decent track profile and model. That's not the issue for me....

The main issue for me is health and safety, and that issue not only hasn't been resolved for me, it's been amplified:



Also, I take issue with how quickly some of these tracks have concluded that Polytrack (or whatever artificial surface is in vogue) is the solution for them without waiting to see the long term effects of using these types of surfaces outside of where they have normally been used (mostly England I presume).

The industry has embraced Polytrack like a kid embraces presents on Christmas morning....nothing but the "give me now! I must have it now!" attitude. Dangerous and silly in my opinion. All the while rallying around the "health and safety" issue of the horses and jockeys involved.

A lightly raced 2yo broke down and died in a race at Santa Anita (artificial) a few hours before George Washington broke down and died at Monmouth (real dirt). Arlington had as many horses break down this year on their artificial as broke down on their real dirt course two years ago, according to info posted on this board.

It would be refreshing if the industry were to address some very REAL and FIXABLE problems in this game, instead of tripping all over themselves to fix something that probably wasn't broken to begin with (properly maintained dirt courses).

I could not agree more. The one thing that the people that are connected with these synthetic surfaces never talk about is the long term health consequences from the breathing in of these synthetic particles.

It is very unfortunate that these people were sold a pig in a poke by high pressure salemen who's only agenda is money and greed.

These synthetic surfaces have set the sport that we all love back 50 years.

I can not think of one single thing in all the 50 years that I have been a horseplayer that have been more detrimental to the sport then the installation of these synthetic surfaces.

_______
David

[46zilzal]

Poly isn't slower (just look at Woodbine), it is just very inconsistent.

[shanta]

I can not think of one single thing in all the 50 years that I have been a horseplayer that have been more detrimental to the sport then the installation of these synthetic surfaces.

_______
David

I can.

The acceptance of cheaters (vets and trainers) using illegal drugs in racing. Racing a lot of hurt/crippled horses on this shit has resulted in a lot of breakdowns etc that should not have happened.

We won't even go into the degradation of racing in a lot of tracks where these jokers are allowed to "operate". Nyra comes to mind right away. Who wants to run against these "folks"? I wouldn't.

Lack of a zero tolerance rule regarding "doping" has crippled racing in many arenas and given the sport a black eye. Deservedly so.

Synthetic surfaces pale in comparison.

[Tom]

So how has poly hurt racing at Hol, SA, Wo, TP????? I agree there was a rush to install without all the facts, but how has the sport been set back 50 years?

[robert99]

There are decades of industrial data on what are known safe (no known harm) levels of exposure for a huge range of chemicals, materials and dusts, including those from agriculture and mining. For dusts, it is the smaller particles which do damage to the lungs. Polytrack has larger clumped particles when laid, but these bed down and become finer with time, if not replaced. That damage can take decades to turn into cancers etc. The data is there ready for the horseracing industry to adopt. It is EU safety law since the 1970s to protect and monitor all workers at any risk and perhaps this is same in US etc.

[David-LV]

So how has poly hurt racing at Hol, SA, Wo, TP????? I agree there was a rush to install without all the facts, but how has the sport been set back 50 years?

If breathing in these synthetic particals is not harmful to your lungs and respiratory system then why did Hollywood Park post a sign to protect their rear ends that reads:

" ENTER TRACK AT YOUR OWN RISK, INHALING THESE MATERIALS MAY CAUSE CANCER & BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH."

There is an old saying where there is smoke there is fire!

Everybody keeps ignoring this health question because they can't answer the question: Is breathing in these synthetic particals harmful to your health?

I can answer that question by saying: ABSOLUTELY YES.

The rush to the installation of these synthetic surfaces is criminal and will have long term health consequences for the people that are forced to earn their living around this Poly Junk.

_______
David

BTW: At Woodbine, some jockeys are wearing masks and screens on their faces. I Wonder Why?

[46zilzal]

MANY jockeys and the majority of outriders wear masks at Woodbine. If only the horses could.

[Tom]

There is an old saying where there is smoke there is fire!


I can answer that question by saying: ABSOLUTELY YES.


_______
David

BTW: At Woodbine, some jockeys are wearing masks and screens on their faces. I Wonder Why?

This has set racing back 50 years? With all due respect - Bull.
You have nothing but opinions - no facts to back up anything. I share some of your concerns, but still, the jury is out. I have worked in plastic factories for 35 years and have no health problems. Whether or not the poly tracks will cause health issues is at this point pure speculation.
The game is going right along nicely. I see no set back for the sport itself.

[46zilzal]

Ah, Tom the known health expert. "If it dudn't happen to me, it dudn't exist!"

Many of these fibers, crystals take 20-30 years for cancerous change to occur.http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Sites-Types/mesothelioma

[bigmack]

" ENTER TRACK AT YOUR OWN RISK, INHALING THESE MATERIALS MAY CAUSE CANCER & BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH."

There is an old saying where there is smoke there is fire!
It's Deja Vu all over again. Could you get a different drum or lower the height of the horse you're parading around on?

[David-LV]

This has set racing back 50 years? With all due respect - Bull.
You have nothing but opinions - no facts to back up anything. I share some of your concerns, but still, the jury is out. I have worked in plastic factories for 35 years and have no health problems. Whether or not the poly tracks will cause health issues is at this point pure speculation.
The game is going right along nicely. I see no set back for the sport itself.

Yes Tom I guess you are an expert in the field of respiratory disorders because you were lucky and survived those 35 years in the plastic factories. I am sure that it was not luck and the company that you worked for took all the necessary safety precautions before they even opened the doors to the factory.
There is ZERO comparision with Poly Tracks and you working in a plastic factory.

Tell the jockey that comes down with lung cancer 10 or 20 years from now that my concern for their health right now is as you say "IS PURE SPECULATION".

________
David

[bigmack]

Tell the jockey that comes down with lung cancer 5 or 10 years from now that my concern for their health right now is as you say "IS PURE SPECULATION".
You are the one touting the ill-effects of breathing Poly fibers. Your continued "scientific" evidence is a sign @ HOL :lol: Let's not go down this incredibly biased path of yours again.

[46zilzal]

They are all lies and fabrications because it does not "fit" their reality.
http://www.assiniboiadowns.com/insider/volume2_number32.htm
Some horses at Woodbine suffer breathing problems after racing over their synthetic surface and must have their breathing passages scoped. Riders are being urged to use masks. Polyunfortunate

[David-LV]

MANY jockeys and the majority of outriders wear masks at Woodbine. If only the horses could.


BIGMACK: Nothing personal, but maybe you don't read all the posts and only read the ones that you want to on this subject, but if I'm not mistaken it seem that I am on the side of the vast majority on this issue. Sorry, but that is the way it is.

________
David

[46zilzal]

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/22/sports/nahill/21_49_198_21_07.txt
" I am a lawyer specializing in environmental class action suits. I made my bones (and fortune) in the asbestos debacle. I can just smell the vultures that will circle when
jockeys start developing pulmonary problems from breathing these synthetic materials. The tracks and polytrack developers have done no study about possible negative health
effects. I sure hope (but doubt) they carry liability insurance."

[David-LV]

They are all lies and fabrications because it does not "fit" their reality.
http://www.assiniboiadowns.com/insider/volume2_number32.htm
Some horses at Woodbine suffer breathing problems after racing over their synthetic surface and must have their breathing passages scoped. Riders are being urged to use masks. Polyunfortunate


BIGMACK: Just in case you missed this post also I'm just alerting you!

_______
David

[46zilzal]

BIGMACK: Just in case you missed this post also I'm just alerting you!

_
This one quit contributing to discussions a long time ago.

[46zilzal]

http://www.areavoices.com/hodgepodge/?archive=2007-05
"The jury is still out," Palmer said. "It's pretty new, and it still has to go through seasons and weather changes."

A problem arose at Turfway during the winter, when horsemen noticed that cold weather, or perhaps temperature swings, affected the surface. They said the Polytrack began balling up, and material collected in the hoof and shoes might lead to horses' legs hitting the ground unevenly.

[bigmack]

If you kids have anything new to add from these threads, keep us posted.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39740
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40237

Zilly at work finding new & less than interesting links to "contribute" to the thread:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/193.gif

[riskman]

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/22/sports/nahill/21_49_198_21_07.txt
" I am a lawyer specializing in environmental class action suits. I made my bones (and fortune) in the asbestos debacle. I can just smell the vultures that will circle when
jockeys start developing pulmonary problems from breathing these synthetic materials. The tracks and polytrack developers have done no study about possible negative health
effects. I sure hope (but doubt) they carry liability insurance."

Owners and Operators of race tracks carry Comprehensive General Liability Insurance including Excess Liability --usually at substantial limits. As far as employees and jockeys ,it would be a Workers Compensation issue.

[cj]

Here is something I posted on my site regarding the Santa Anita oval, handicapping related:

Now that they are closed having finished the first meet, I like to look and see how the track changed. Well, just like all the other fake dirt tracks, whether poly, cushion, or tapeta, there is more of a closer bias than dirt. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but just good to know.

Looking at the pars, the winners definitely are expending their energy in a more even rate.

At 6f, the average winner ran .34 seconds slower to the pace call. At 6.5f, the average winner ran .62 seconds slower, and at 7f the difference was .83 seconds slower.

In routes, at one mile the difference was .97 seconds, and at one mile and a sixteenth, 1.11 seconds. Just a little FYI, don't be fooled by the fast final times and fractions, they mean very little. The relationship between pace and final time is where the big change is at all the fake dirt tracks.

This isn't really new either Mack, but at least it isn't a link. :)

[bigmack]

This isn't really new either Mack, but at least it isn't a link.
Holy tomato paste, at least it has something to do with the topic at hand. Let's see, what was that again, synthentic surfaces=slow races, right?

Always good stuff from your camp, cj. Bedankt.

[Tom]

There is ZERO comparision with Poly Tracks and you working in a plastic factory.

Tell the jockey that comes down with lung cancer 10 or 20 years from now that my concern for their health right now is as you say "IS PURE SPECULATION".

________
David

I guess you fancy yourself an expert now, too?
Yes, the "dust" from poly is outside, in a well ventillated environment, not confined to enclosed areas like the inside of a factory. It is a "cloud" that is kicked up, not a whole gaylord full of 1800 lbs of the raw stuff two feet from me. Yes, you are correct - zero comparision.

Pure speculation? Well, unless you have some FACTS, Iwould certainly call it that. Do you have any FACTS?

[Tom]

You are the one touting the ill-effects of breathing Poly fibers. Your continued "scientific" evidence is a sign @ HOL :lol: Let's not go down this incredibly biased path of yours again.

My sister has a hair dryer. There is a label on it that says "Do Not Insert Into Any Bodily Orafice." :lol:

[Tom]

Ah, Tom the known health expert. "If it dudn't happen to me, it dudn't exist!"

Many of these fibers, crystals take 20-30 years for cancerous change to occur.

Learn to read, I did not say that. I said there is no evidence. Are you prepared to say for certain cancer will develop and it will be as a result of these "fibers?"

[Tom]

Holy tomato paste, at least it has something to do with the topic at hand. Let's see, what was that again, synthentic surfaces=slow races, right?

Always good stuff from your camp, cj. Bedankt.

Whilst many ponder the existence of a poly curse, CJ has already developed a nifty rating that allows one to capitalize on poly surfaces. Seems parts of the game continue to move forward. ;););)

[Semipro]

Well it started out a well intented thread quicky went to sh*t. F Poly will be demise of the sport.

[gallahadion]

Ok, I wrote this in a letter to myself and mailed it so I will have the copyright on this......fairings for horses! Just like a fairing on a motorcycle deflects wind buffeting (and bugs in the face) so too will my Horse Fairing that fits on top of the horses head and deflects the polytrack from flying up the nose and in the mouth of the poor jocks. I'll make millions, even trillions on the hysteria. Go Team!:jump:

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/22/sports/nahill/21_49_198_21_07.txt
" I am a lawyer specializing in environmental class action suits. I made my bones (and fortune) in the asbestos debacle. I can just smell the vultures that will circle when
jockeys start developing pulmonary problems from breathing these synthetic materials. The tracks and polytrack developers have done no study about possible negative health
effects. I sure hope (but doubt) they carry liability insurance."This quote is not from the article itself, but rather a public web COMMENT left by some guy named Harry....

[PaceAdvantage]

If breathing in these synthetic particals is not harmful to your lungs and respiratory system then why did Hollywood Park post a sign to protect their rear ends that reads:

" ENTER TRACK AT YOUR OWN RISK, INHALING THESE MATERIALS MAY CAUSE CANCER & BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH."Is this a joke? They really have a sign that says this? Can someone get a picture of this sign? I can't believe there is a sign up there that states this.....really?

[bigmack]

a public web COMMENT left by some guy named Harry....
Say hello to Harry
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/harry.jpg

Not only did ZMan cut & paste Harry's take but he also cleaned up his spelling. What a guy.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/93-1.jpg

[David-LV]

Is this a joke? They really have a sign that says this? Can someone get a picture of this sign? I can't believe there is a sign up there that states this.....really?

This sign was up last meet and was spoken about on many of the racing radio shows on the west coast. The rush to install these synthetic surfaces so far has proved to be only a financial windfall for the sellers of this Poly Junk.

Originally Posted by 46zilzal
MANY jockeys and the majority of outriders wear masks at Woodbine. If only the horses could.

Originally Posted by 46zilzal
They are all lies and fabrications because it does not "fit" their reality.
http://www.assiniboiadowns.com/insi...e2_number32.htm (http://www.assiniboiadowns.com/insider/volume2_number32.htm)
Some horses at Woodbine suffer breathing problems after racing over their synthetic surface and must have their breathing passages scoped. Riders are being urged to use masks. Polyunfortunate


Synthetic Surfaces will in the end destroy horse racing as we know it.
Very sad.:( :(

_______
David

[cryptic1]

46, I've been watching workouts every Saturday morning at Woodbine
since March. I can count on one hand the number of jocks and exercise
riders wearing masks. I counted exactly three this past saturday, and one was
the crazy exercise rider who wears it 24 -7 because he thinks he's keeping
the devil out.
I have spoken to every jock and exercise rider that the Vella barn uses and
none of them either complain of any problems with the kickback nor have
suffered any problems from it. It strikes me that you are grossly exaggerating
the situation to substantiate your position. I will gladly meet you this
saturday and we can count the masks and put to rest your faulty assertions.
You can find me at the Vella barn,bring a calculator.

cryptic1

[Semipro]

46, I've been watching workouts every Saturday morning at Woodbine
since March. I can count on one hand the number of jocks and exercise
riders wearing masks. I counted exactly three this past saturday, and one was
the crazy exercise rider who wears it 24 -7 because he thinks he's keeping
the devil out.
I have spoken to every jock and exercise rider that the Vella barn uses and
none of them either complain of any problems with the kickback nor have
suffered any problems from it. It strikes me that you are grossly exaggerating
the situation to substantiate your position. I will gladly meet you this
saturday and we can count the masks and put to rest your faulty assertions.
You can find me at the Vella barn,bring a calculator.

cryptic1Only time will hold the true answer.

[46zilzal]

Vella's exercise riders, who happen to ride at a time other than race day reflect the entire place?

My sources say otherwise and all you have to do is watch a few post parades in the cold to see what I am talking about.

Emma Jayne Wilson wears one on and off all the time.

[46zilzal]

From an English riding site.http://www.flatstats.co.uk/horseracing/index.php?cmd=glossary
Kick Back
Clumps of all weather surface kicked backwards by horses galloping.

Those in the rear will often be covered in the all weather surface and thus be at a disadvantage. Jockeys often wear masks when racing on the all weather but horses do not and can breathe in the substance.

The polytrack surface is a much fairer surface with virtually no kick back. Any kick back is often described as more like a powder puff.


Virtually NO KICKBACK NORMALLY. Just watch it in the cold.

[46zilzal]

from the Queen's Plate broadcast. Not the greatest shot but what is that this out-rider is wearing?

[bigmack]

from the Queen's Plate broadcast. Not the greatest shot but what is that this out-rider is wearing?
Wow! Between the sign at HOL and that mask it's obvious that it's a clear & present danger.

Nice work Columbo.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow! Between the sign at HOL and that mask it's obvious that it's a clear & present danger.

Nice work Columbo.OK. I'll bite. Why do your feathers seem to get ultra-ruffled whenever there is negative speculation about artificial surfaces?

[bigmack]

OK. I'll bite. Why do your feathers seem to get ultra-ruffled whenever there is negative speculation about artificial surfaces?
Health effects. Mere conjecture & speculation from nutjobs.

Not the surf.

[kyle2227]

I say the masks are a good thing. Better to be safe then sorry just it will cause cancer some day.

[PaceAdvantage]

Health effects. Mere conjecture & speculation from nutjobs.

Not the surf.Yeah, but that sign....I never knew that sign existed, and it still shocks me that Hollywood management would put up such a sign. Can you shed some light on this for me?

[bigmack]

Yeah, but that sign....
It's a shocker to be sure. :eek:

VicJ Stauffer might shed insight or even Mr. T's post 32.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Here is a link to the list of "chemicals" that require warning signs under Ca law (aspirin and tetesterone are on the list):
"http://www.oehha.org/prop65/prop65_list/files/P65single092807.pdf"
Not sure if the silica listed was already in the track materials or not.

[46zilzal]

http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2007/07/polytrack-causing-health-concerns.html

"Anyone following the sport in Ontario is well aware of Emma-Jayne Wilson's mask. And anyone who has been up close to her after a race will notice how much fibrous material
winds up on that mask."

[46zilzal]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5107543.html (new type mask in the works)

http://books.google.com/books?id=WaX34EkhuqQC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=jockeys+masks&source=web&ots=tFnFXNNzeL&sig=OwkGk-2oSw0FDBVSNQuJRcNDj3g

effect of frozen race tracks and "death cookies."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19950104/ai_n14871305

At Lingfield in England:"There is the jet-lag on the punting brain which still insists that Flat racing cannot happen in January, and the jockeys wearing masks to protect them from the alien surface."

http://www.assiniboiadowns.com/insider/volume2_number30.htm
"Scoping the breathing passages of horses has become the biggest part of veterinarian's work at Woodbine these days after horses ride over the synthetic Polytrack surface, kicking up sticky waxed particles, according to backstretch workers. Jockeys routinely clear their noses of "brown sludge" after a race and prefer to work their horses on the dirt training track rather than go out on the Poly surface. Gallop boys who work horses on the main track are being cautioned to wear masks. Woodbine management says it is continuing to work on the surface to get it right. Polytrack was installed last summer at a cost of $10
million. It is an amalgam of synthetic fibres, rubber chunks and silicone, all with a waxed coating, and the track recently added cable jell (the jell around electrical wiring) that has been described as looking like sprinkles on the icing of a cake."

Ah, but to those who go by their "gut," this worldwide phenomenon is just imagination.

[tholl]

[QUOTE=46zilzal][
"Scoping the breathing passages of horses has become the biggest part of veterinarian's work at Woodbine these days after horses ride over the synthetic Polytrack surface, kicking up sticky waxed particles, according to backstretch workers. QUOTE]

But the unanswered question is: What is the scoping of the breathing passages of the horses finding ?

[46zilzal]

There is lots of evidence for particulates. The more that are around, the greater the incidence of problems.
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/03-089sum.html
http://www.petplace.com/horses/inflammatory-airway-disease-in-performance-horses/page1.aspx
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2516&S=0&SourceID=69
http://www.ivis.org/special_books/lekeux/hodgson/ivis.pdf

[tholl]

There is lots of evidence for particulates. The more that are around, the greater the incidence of problems.
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/03-089sum.html
http://www.petplace.com/horses/inflammatory-airway-disease-in-performance-horses/page1.aspx
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2516&S=0&SourceID=69
http://www.ivis.org/special_books/lekeux/hodgson/ivis.pdf

LOl..All these articles are referring to respiratory diseases that are caused by dust found in DIRT and BEDDING. This is the main reason why there is such a bleeding problem with American racehorses--dusty, poor ventilated barns as well as breathing in DIRT from dirt tracks. This is nothing new---it also has nothing to do with--and none of your articles say anything about, Polytrack.

So, I ask again, What is the scoping of all the horses at Woodbine finding ??

[Tom]

So, poly is good - gets rid of that nasty dirt, huh?
Hmmmmm.

[tholl]

So, poly is good - gets rid of that nasty dirt, huh?
Hmmmmm.

Would'nt say that---but unless Poly does turn out to be cancer causing I believe the bigger problem the horses face comes from their general living environment--which is pointed out by those articles.

[46zilzal]

LOl..All these articles are referring to respiratory diseases that are caused by dust found in DIRT and BEDDING. This is the main reason why there is such a bleeding problem with American racehorses--dusty, poor ventilated barns as well as breathing in DIRT from dirt tracks. This is nothing new---it also has nothing to do with--and none of your articles say anything about, Polytrack.


Slow and from the top, these point to PARTICULATES (in general) inhaled as a cause of inflammatory respiratory disease. If Polytrack kickback is not particulate, please let me know.

[bigmack]

http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2007/07/polytrack-causing-health-concerns.html
"Anyone following the sport in Ontario is well aware of Emma-Jayne Wilson's mask. And anyone who has been up close to her after a race will notice how much fibrous material
winds up on that mask."
Ah, Tom the known health expert. "If it dudn't happen to me, it dudn't exist!"
Many of these fibers, crystals take 20-30 years for cancerous change to occur.http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Sites-Types/mesothelioma
They are all lies and fabrications because it does not "fit" their reality.
http://www.assiniboiadowns.com/insider/volume2_number32.htm
Some horses at Woodbine suffer breathing problems after racing over their synthetic surface and must have their breathing passages scoped. Riders are being urged to use masks. Polyunfortunate
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/22/sports/nahill/21_49_198_21_07.txt
" I am a lawyer specializing in environmental class action suits. I made my bones (and fortune) in the asbestos debacle. I can just smell the vultures that will circle when
jockeys start developing pulmonary problems from breathing these synthetic materials. The tracks and polytrack developers have done no study about possible negative health
effects. I sure hope (but doubt) they carry liability insurance."
http://www.areavoices.com/hodgepodge/?archive=2007-05
"The jury is still out," Palmer said. "It's pretty new, and it still has to go through seasons and weather changes." A problem arose at Turfway during the winter, when horsemen noticed that cold weather, or perhaps temperature swings, affected the surface. They said the Polytrack began balling up, and material collected in the hoof and shoes might lead to horses' legs hitting the ground unevenly.
From an English riding site.http://www.flatstats.co.uk/horseracing/index.php?cmd=glossaryKick Back
Clumps of all weather surface kicked backwards by horses galloping.
Those in the rear will often be covered in the all weather surface and thus be at a disadvantage. Jockeys often wear masks when racing on the all weather but horses do not and can breathe in the substance.
The polytrack surface is a much fairer surface with virtually no kick back. Any kick back is often described as more like a powder puff.
Virtually NO KICKBACK NORMALLY. Just watch it in the cold.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5107543.html (new type mask in the works)
http://books.google.com/books?id=WaX34EkhuqQC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=jockeys+masks&source=web&ots=tFnFXNNzeL&sig=OwkGk-2oSw0FDBVSNQuJRcNDj3g
effect of frozen race tracks and "death cookies."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19950104/ai_n14871305
At Lingfield in England:"There is the jet-lag on the punting brain which still insists that Flat racing cannot happen in January, and the jockeys wearing masks to protect them from the alien surface."
http://www.assiniboiadowns.com/insider/volume2_number30.htm
"Scoping the breathing passages of horses has become the biggest part of veterinarian's work at Woodbine these days after horses ride over the synthetic Polytrack surface, kicking up sticky waxed particles, according to backstretch workers. Jockeys routinely clear their noses of "brown sludge" after a race and prefer to work their horses on the dirt training track rather than go out on the Poly surface. Gallop boys who work horses on the main track are being cautioned to wear masks. Woodbine management says it is continuing to work on the surface to get it right. Polytrack was installed last summer at a cost of $10
million. It is an amalgam of synthetic fibres, rubber chunks and silicone, all with a waxed coating, and the track recently added cable jell (the jell around electrical wiring) that has been described as looking like sprinkles on the icing of a cake."
Ah, but to those who go by their "gut," this worldwide phenomenon is just imagination.

So many posts and how many have anything to do with the topic of the thread? Zero.

[46zilzal]

Anticipation of parallel problems is only attempted by the visionary who see things before they happen.

[Semipro]

So, poly is good - gets rid of that nasty dirt, huh?
Hmmmmm.You can't fool mother nature

[bigmack]

Anticipation of parallel problems is only attempted by the visionary who see things before they happen.
Well this visionary sees you going after more links. Thus, anticipating a problem that requires little in the way of vision.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/BBLinks.gif

[46zilzal]

http://friendofbarbaro.blogspot.com/

The Daily Racing Form reported that a Polytrack surface installed at the Woodbine Racetrack outside Toronto has experienced increased kickback as the temperature has dropped. That brings up a largely unexplored issue, about the long-term effects for horses of breathing in the kickback from a Polytrack surface, even though there is far less kickback than on a dirt track.
http://jen-thoroughbreds.blogspot.com/2007/04/no-joke.html

POLYTRACK played better as far as kickback today, thanks to a steady drizzle early this morning and afternoon but it was incredibly speed biased today, more so that yesterday.
Five furlong races or no, the track was playing only for speed. In response to numerous questions and a comment (below) regarding the Polytrack and its effect on horses breathing it in, yes, many horses are being scoped after the race and are found to have lots of fibre and stuff in their lungs. They cough it out, that's it. Not sure what can be done about that but in conversations with several trainers and owners today, the horses were filled up with the stuff and no, that can't be good.

http://www.hbpa.org/newsdisplay.asp?section=3&key1=5860
Collins admitted this installation was designed for wetter weather, based on the amount of wax coating applied to the polypropylene fibers, recycled rubber, and silica sand that comprise the material. As a result, there was more "kickback"--a fine mist of Polytrack caused by the digging hooves of horses--than anticipated. Some jockeys complained that breathing the kickback caused them respiratory problems.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41237
"I think the jury is still out on the Polytrack," he said. "My horses train well on it and come back but you don't know what the long-term effects are from breathing in the synthetic surface. It will be a few more years before we decide if it's a success."

[GaryG]

Anticipation of parallel problems is only attempted by the visionary who see things before they happen.Howard Cosell would lave loved shit like this!

[cj]

Well this visionary sees you going after more links. Thus, anticipating a problem that requires little in the way of vision.



You may go cash now sir, results are official.

[cj]

The very early results seem to indicate Golden Gate is performing just as expected...you better slow down early if you want to win.

[robert99]

The hazardous stuff is the particles below 10 microns in size. A micron is about 0.4 thousandths of an inch. New polytrack (and similar products)coated particle clusters are thousands of times bigger than that. So it is only the really fine degraded particles of polytrack that are of potential concern. Exposure times and quantities inhaled are important factors. Normal masks will not effectively filter out these 10 micron particles and horses cannot race with them. It seems the authorities and employers are putting themselves at great risk if they do not use the well known existing science and regulate, with monitoring, if it proves necessary, how this material is used safely in the racing industry. The same applies to dirt tracks.

Respirable crystalline silica

That portion of airborne crystalline silica that is capable of entering the gas-exchange regions of the lungs if inhaled; by convention, a particle-size-selective fraction of the total airborne dust; includes particles with aerodynamic diameters less than approximately 10 µm and has a 50% deposition efficiency for particles with an aerodynamic diameter of approximately 4 µm.

[bigmack]

You may go cash now sir, results are official.
Hot Diggity Dog!

Ah, payout was $3.20
http://www.mediamax.com/slbabyfile/f2547721-2fca-48bb-b4ad-996e67c46cb2/PlayList_PSVWEXIUMT.asx

[JohnGalt1]

To get back to the topic--

I buy the Cynthia par book every year. The recently updated the pars on their web site for the 4 newest track surfaces. I make a chart converting the actual time adjusted by the varient into one number. I use this when making my pace figures.

Poly obviously doesn't have varients factored in. These are for 10k open claimers.

6f 1:12.0=85 pts Mile 1:37.4=85 1 1/16 1:44.1=85 1 1/8 1:50.3=85

Track 6f Mile 1 1/16 1 1/8
Arlington-dirt 88 89 83 77
Arlington-poly 89 88 79 75

Del Mar-dirt 89 84 82 82
Del Mar-poly 83 71 69 69

Santa Anita-dirt 90 83 81 81
Santa Anita-cushion 97 90 88 88

When I looked at the first month of racing at SA I made my own par chart by averaging the race times, my results were similar to Cynthia's.

Turf Paradise re-did their dirt track. Times are slower. You need to know this when you run into a shipper from there. The new dirt times are averages from opening day through the month of October.

TuP-old dirt 96 91 86 87
Tup-new dirt 90 79 80 --

I hope this helps answer the original question.

[Tom]

Thanks, John....do you when Tup made the surface change?

[JohnGalt1]

Thanks, John....do you when Tup made the surface change?


Tom, not sure what your question is.

Also when I typed the charts, I spaced the columns and when I read the post they were compressed and harder to read. I hope it's understandable.

[Tom]

John, you said they re-did thier dirt track.
Do you know what date?

[JohnGalt1]

Before this meet.

Prairie Meadows also will re do their track before next year. I read this from a link on Equidaily.com from the Des Moines Register. It had a build up from something that made the track crusty.

You may not bet at these tracks, but you may see shippers from there.

I read all the results from Presque Ilse Downs before Cynthia wrote their results because i wanted to know how to rate that track.

[Tom]

Thanks, good to know.

[Robert Fischer]

The problem with synthetic-turf replacing dirt at Major tracks is that you can not run a quality Classic Distance Dirt Race on these surfaces.

The Classic Distance Dirt Race is the gold standard of American thoroughbred racing.





All the cheap tracks should have this stuff. It is safer.

The surface should be a single regulated composition designed for maximum safety and minimum kickback.

Any major track that can install a third surface or training track should offer the synthetic.

[rgustafson]

[QUOTE=Robert Fischer]The problem with synthetic-turf replacing dirt at Major tracks is that you can not run a quality Classic Distance Dirt Race on these surfaces.

Robert,

I assume that you mean by a "Classic Distance Dirt Race", one that is run at 1 1/4 miles in distance. The definition of quality is a little harder to come by, but I think that the Breeders Cup Classic would qualify. This race has been run in final times between roughly 1:59 flat and 2:04 2/5ths seconds. The three Classics run at Santa Anita have been in 1:59 4/5, 2:00 2/5 and 2:00 4/5. I think by the time the 2008 races have been run at Santa Anita next fall, your statement quoted above will be proven false.

[Tom]

I don't see how you could run a dirt race on these surfaces.:confused:

[rgustafson]

I don't see how you could run a dirt race on these surfaces.:confused:

Well Tom, when you put it that way, I guess his argument is irrefutable:)

[cj]

The Breeder's Cup next year could be ugly when it comes to the dirt races. They will certainly be different, and there is a a very strong chance they won't be won by division "champions".

[46zilzal]

The Breeder's Cup next year could be ugly when it comes to the dirt races. They will certainly be different, and there is a a very strong chance they won't be won by division "champions".
One of the strong reasons for them to be held on the surface that they ran on all year.

[Tom]

I heard on the news last night that NYS has or is voting on a mortiorium for 6 months on all synthetic surfaces for parks, playgrounds, and other public venues so that studies can be conducted on the danger of the ingredients, particularly the rubber used in the stuff.

[Robert Fischer]

[QUOTE=Robert Fischer]The problem with synthetic-turf replacing dirt at Major tracks is that you can not run a quality Classic Distance Dirt Race on these surfaces.

Robert,

I assume that you mean by a "Classic Distance Dirt Race", one that is run at 1 1/4 miles in distance. The definition of quality is a little harder to come by, but I think that the Breeders Cup Classic would qualify. This race has been run in final times between roughly 1:59 flat and 2:04 2/5ths seconds. The three Classics run at Santa Anita have been in 1:59 4/5, 2:00 2/5 and 2:00 4/5. I think by the time the 2008 races have been run at Santa Anita next fall, your statement quoted above will be proven false.


My statement has nothing to do with final times.

You can also run a turf race for 10 furlongs in 2:00 or a remote control car race in 2 minutes ... neither have anything to do with Classic Distance American Thoroughbred Racing on Dirt. Which happens to be the golden standard of American thoroughbred racing!

I don't care if a bunch of snails wired with explosives could run around 10 furlongs in 2 minutes ... a final time would not make such a spectacle any closer to Classic Distance dirt racing.

Specifically to address the differences at Santa Anita - the ideal pedigrees are much different, and the dynamics are much different

[rgustafson]

Robert,

Not a lot of evidence yet pertaining to your thoughts about different pedigrees and different dynamics in 10 furlong races on dirt vs. 10 furlongs on synthetic surfaces. This, however is what has happened recently: Lava Man won three Hollywood Gold Cups in a row, the first two on dirt and the most recent on the Cushion Track. Student Council, who won the Pacific Classic at Delmar on polytrack came back to win the Hawthorne Gold Cup (Gr.II) on dirt, and is pointing for the Japan Cup Dirt later this month. Perhaps the Big Cap next March will shed more light on this subject.

[Robert Fischer]

Robert,

Not a lot of evidence yet pertaining to your thoughts about different pedigrees and different dynamics in 10 furlong races on dirt vs. 10 furlongs on synthetic surfaces.

I don't know what to say if it isn't blatently obvious to you.