Dr. Steve Allday accused Dutrow of cheating.....

[Scav]

Absolutely amazing radio from my friend Steve Byk of At the Races. Allday CALLED IN to the show to talk about the Wild Desert fiasco. THIS is a must hear.

"I saw alot of things going on in that barn that shouldn't be going on" - Steve Allday on At the Races

It is in Hour 1, more then half way through

http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/option,com_events/task,view_detail/agid,101/year,2007/month,11/day,02/Itemid,35/

[JustRalph]

good stuff............

[cj]

I wish I could say I was shocked, but does this really surprise anyone?

I think the host had a little "deer in the headlights" syndrome. He could have asked some very good questions once the good vet started talking.

[john del riccio]

...Once upon a time, I was "slapped on the wrist" for citing that Dutrow was a cheating creep, I guess nows its OK to say such a thing. The real question is, what the hell are they gonna do about it.


JOhn

[jma]

Not that I trust Dutrow, but is there aren't many vets with shadier reputations than Allday. The Thorograph board has been discussing Allday's actions for years. When he shows up, barn winning percentages start going way up, and it's not because of tender loving care...so it's one crook pointing the finger at another. Of course this is all rumor and I'm making no allegations of any kind.

[cj]

Many criminals are caught when fellow criminals start talking.

[Scav]

I wish I could say I was shocked, but does this really surprise anyone?

I think the host had a little "deer in the headlights" syndrome. He could have asked some very good questions once the good vet started talking.

Actually, he was being very cautious. He was asked this question, his response below.

"Understand that without knowing what Dr. Allday might suggest further in that setting, or what support he would have for those further deliniations, I could not open our production company, and Sirius, up to potential actions for slander. Sirius has been very clear that they do not want to be put into that position. There has already been two incidents along those lines, and they will not tolerate a third. " - Steve Byk

[DeanT]

Many criminals are caught when fellow criminals start talking.
This game will only be cleaned up from within it.

[Dahoss9698]

I think the host had a little "deer in the headlights" syndrome. He could have asked some very good questions once the good vet started talking.

I agree. It would have been nice to hear a real interview with Allday. He obviously wanted to talk, I mean he called in. The slander stuff seems like a convenient excuse to me, as worse is said daily on Sirius on many shows. Great opportunity missed.

[JustRalph]

I agree. It would have been nice to hear a real interview with Allday. He obviously wanted to talk, I mean he called in. The slander stuff seems like a convenient excuse to me, as worse is said daily on Sirius on many shows. Great opportunity missed.


Sirius has been very clear that they do not want to be put into that position. There has already been two incidents along those lines, and they will not tolerate a third. " - Steve Byk


Dahoss, what part of the Byk quote did you not understand.

they will not tolerate a third means something.

Byk is one of the few people I actually like listening to. I am sick of smarmy experts (some of whom show up on Byk's show, but not so often) and like the refreshing change on Byk's show. He doesn't have an attitude and he seems like an honest voice. Some of those guys who call in and sound like they are riding around in Tony Soprano's Escalade kind of grate on me, but the show is pretty good overall. He makes it clear in the quote above that there might not be a show if something untoward is mentioned on the show. I got the feeling the call was not planned and Byk had no knowledge of what was going to be said.........and in live radio........that can be dangerous.

You can call it a missed opportunity, I call it an opportunity to lose a radio show............one of very few available to the sport.

[bigmack]

SByk does an apt job with the show (though I'd rather he not smack his lips between sentences or that I ever noticed he did) & with time he's getting guests that have a high degree of import for the larger contests.

The flow of that discussion indicated that he was copasetic with the direction it was moving though once Dr. Allday leaned into his firsthand knowledge Steve started to back pedal. The only time I listen is when I'm tooling around in the car and from my experience, given the "wild west" nature of Sirius, it's odd that he's been instructed to tippie toe around such egregious shenanigans as they mar the game exponentially.

[garyoz]

Dahoss, what part of the Byk quote did you not understand.

they will not tolerate a third means something.

You can call it a missed opportunity, I call it an opportunity to lose a radio show............one of very few available to the sport.

Agree with Ralph. Accusations of slander with implications about harming someone's livelihood is a grey area. I don't blame Sirius or the host at all. Litigation is expensive--so is a settlement. Truth is the best defense, and everyone would love to see some evidence--but prove the accusations.

Certainly the risks to Sirius would far outweight the benefits of carrying the show. One view is that this type of "chilling effect" is a by-product of our litigious society.

[the_fat_man]

It appeared as if the good Dr. also wanted to open up some dialogue about Frankel. Byk didn't want to go there, however.

I probably just fail to comprehend the nuances of the issue.

All major sports are RIGGED. Life is RIGGED. It's all a fix. So, why wouldn't racing be rigged? This is the age of cheating. Cheating is a fact of life.

I was able to deal with the game nicely when Oscar and Ferraiola and those types were cheating; and I certainly am able to deal with the present day cheaters as well.

NYRA can do something about it. Then again, the NBA or the NFL or MLB can also ensure that every team and player are treated EQUALLY when it comes to the officiating. Or every fat/ugly broad out there can opt to pass on the cosmetic surgery and made do with what she has. Yeah.

We know how that's going.

[Tom]

Certainly the risks to Sirius would far outweight the benefits of carrying the show. One view is that this type of "chilling effect" is a by-product of our litigious society.

Sirius needs to grow a set. Do thy offer news shows as well? I would not trust one that was carried by on obvious lightweight network. :ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

[garyoz]

Sirius needs to grow a set. Do thy offer news shows as well? I would not trust one that was carried by on obvious lightweight network. :ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:


Sirius' job is to maximize shareholder value. Lawsuits (even if they are nuisance suits) don't contribute to that objective--particularly for a show with not much demand. True, Sirius probably would probably not be considered libel, but the host could be. Still a suit would go after the deepest pockets. Just more hassles that a marginal company doesn't need. Even staff time costs money.

This whole area of First Amendment Law and its intersection with Libel and Slander is still evolving with new media (including the Internet--for example there is case law with a specific indemnification of ISP's--back in the day someone sued Prodigy for a slanderous posting on one of it message boards)

[Dahoss9698]

Dahoss, what part of the Byk quote did you not understand.

they will not tolerate a third means something.

Byk is one of the few people I actually like listening to. I am sick of smarmy experts (some of whom show up on Byk's show, but not so often) and like the refreshing change on Byk's show. He doesn't have an attitude and he seems like an honest voice. Some of those guys who call in and sound like they are riding around in Tony Soprano's Escalade kind of grate on me, but the show is pretty good overall. He makes it clear in the quote above that there might not be a show if something untoward is mentioned on the show. I got the feeling the call was not planned and Byk had no knowledge of what was going to be said.........and in live radio........that can be dangerous.

You can call it a missed opportunity, I call it an opportunity to lose a radio show............one of very few available to the sport.

I just don't buy the excuse. Not a big deal. Just highly doubt Sirius is that concerned with what people say on the show. Considering they employ such personalities as Stern, Bubba The Love Sponge, etc... who are not afraid to speak their mind. I buy the deer in the headlights thought. Again, not a huge deal, but it's my opinion.

[Indulto]

SByk does an apt job with the show (though I'd rather he not smack his lips between sentences or that I ever noticed he did) & with time he's getting guests that have a high degree of import for the larger contests.

The flow of that discussion indicated that he was copasetic with the direction it was moving though once Dr. Allday leaned into his firsthand knowledge Steve started to back pedal. The only time I listen is when I'm tooling around in the car and from my experience, given the "wild west" nature of Sirius, it's odd that he's been instructed to tippie toe around such egregious shenanigans as they mar the game exponentially. :lol:
I thought that sound was a tongue-against-teeth sucking noise, but it didn't become really noticeable until DT started doing the full three hours. In fairness, only the energizer bunny could maintain focus for the entire time.

I only listen to selected archived segments, now, and they sometimes remind me of the children's book, "Madeline:"

"When she was good, she was very, very good ..." :D

Radio journalism and "talkin' horses" are two different things. Preparation is everything, and since Allday is a regular on the show, discretion was the better part of valor.

And maybe Allday's call-up performance (or perhaps his mood) was chemically enhanced. ;) If the dude really wants to spill some beans, it was responsible of DT to make sure his remarks were carefully and soberly thought out to have maximum impact.

Not that he cares, but DT gets a :ThmbUp: from me this time. :cool:

[Kelso]

I call it an opportunity to lose a radio show


Wouldn't the standard "opinions expressed are those of callers, not necessarily of the show/network" disclaimer sufficiently cover everyone's ass? Seems to work well enough on cable.

As for lawsuits ... the guilty aren't particularly fond of being put under oath. Bring a libel action - raise your right hand.

[onefast99]

The Monmouth park workout was the one in question, if Dutrow fudged one and he got caught then he should be suspended. If NY banned the horse due to an owner squabble then Dutrow should of respected NY's decision or challenged it.

[point given]

Wouldn't the standard "opinions expressed are those of callers, not necessarily of the show/network" disclaimer sufficiently cover everyone's ass? Seems to work well enough on cable.

As for lawsuits ... the guilty aren't particularly fond of being put under oath. Bring a libel action - raise your right hand.

I believe that most would have wanted more "dirt" etc. , but I understand the need to tread lightly here. When TV shows like "60 Minutes" do their expose's, they are backed by a network and hired lawyers on the team, in addition to buying personal liability insurance. Sirius and Byk, can't boast the same $ backers to handle the flack / law suits. What's the saying , "about discretion being the better part of valor " ? The caller informed on national media , and the host listened, and let the caller let those who are responsible ( NJ/NY/Canadian) racing authorities know that he is ready to go forward and testify about the allegations. IMO, the ball is in their court now, and the DRF, Bloodhorse, TTimes, etc. should pick up on this and roll it on out now. :ThmbUp:

[john del riccio]

The Monmouth park workout was the one in question, if Dutrow fudged one and he got caught then he should be suspended. If NY banned the horse due to an owner squabble then Dutrow should of respected NY's decision or challenged it.

If they suspended every trainer on the east coast for hiding workouts the horses would be training themselves......He should get banned for the litany of other crap he does.

JOhn

[chickenhead]

petition time...lifetime ban request? can't hurt....If it's common, all the more reason, hard to imagine a more clear cut case of defrauding the public than running false workouts.

[john del riccio]

petition time...lifetime ban request? can't hurt....If it's common, all the more reason, hard to imagine a more clear cut case of defrauding the public than running false workouts.

chick,

at the risk of sounding like a broken record, falsifying works ARE commonplace on the east coast. i'm talking as common as the sun coming up. there are no rules, no process in place for checking, the clockers are about as unscrupulous as the folks we are debating here. i have been there for morning wOrks with my own horse when the clocker would ask the trainer "who was that", the response was, "who would you like it to be ?".

when i told henry kuck that story, he wouldn't talk to me for a week.....as if i had anything to do with it...i was just there.

JAPAN seems to have it right, a ZERO tolerance policy on EVERYTHING.

at the end of the day in japan its all you and what you do to separate yourself from the pools, in the US, its a drug thing.....

i personally could stable up with one of these guys but i never could look myself in the mirror. besides, it gives me alot of satisfaction to do it my way
and i'll take the responsibility for the outcome.

as for dutrow, we all need to face the music when we step over the line...i just hope the music he hears is "never gonna let you go" and not "baby give me one more chance"

JOHN

[Tom]

If false works are commonplace, then maybe we need to have more than Dicky banned for life. There is no excuse for this, and any trainer who does it is a friggin cheater - end of story.

The option, is, always, F*** racing and let it die. Let the bottom feeders have it. Support your local slot machine.

Dutrow needs to serve jail time. And he aint the only one.

[the_fat_man]

chick,

at the risk of sounding like a broken record, falsifying works ARE commonplace on the east coast. i'm talking as common as the sun coming up. there are no rules, no process in place for checking, the clockers are about as unscrupulous as the folks we are debating here. i have been there for morning wOrks with my own horse when the clocker would ask the trainer "who was that", the response was, "who would you like it to be ?".




Gee, if this is the case, and I'm certainly not doubting that it is as I've worked on the backstretch, it kind of makes that HUGE thread about workouts, where all the FORUM'S EXPERTS did their best to EDUCATE us, look kind of stupid. :lol:

Then again, why would the way things REALLY ARE get in the way of the META handicapping going on in here. :D

Moreover, you and others like you are trying to play 'FAIR' in a system that not only doesn't reward fair play but makes it almost impossible to gain any kind of advantage by doing so. You're like the professional athlete that realizes he needs to cheat to stay competitive YET is unwilling to do so while criticizing the way things are. It seems as if you have 2 choices: cheat or get out of the game.

[Shenanigans]

I heard through the grapevine that Allday was going to spill the beans on trainers because he is being investigated about the Biancone case too. Something in the order that Biancone's vet got the snake venom through Allday and Allday is threatening to "take 'em all down with me". Maybe Dutrow is the beginning?

[Tom Barrister]

Many of my friends wonder why my main focus in handicapping is on trainers and jockeys, with the "figures" used to help determine if a well-intended horse is good enough to win. Dutrow is one of the reasons why I do it this way. Wherever you have people and a lot of loose money, many of the people are going to do whatever they have to (and can get away with) to get the most money.

[john del riccio]

Gee, if this is the case, and I'm certainly not doubting that it is as I've worked on the backstretch, it kind of makes that HUGE thread about workouts, where all the FORUM'S EXPERTS did their best to EDUCATE us, look kind of stupid. :lol:

Then again, why would the way things REALLY ARE get in the way of the META handicapping going on in here. :D

Moreover, you and others like you are trying to play 'FAIR' in a system that not only doesn't reward fair play but makes it almost impossible to gain any kind of advantage by doing so. You're like the professional athlete that realizes he needs to cheat to stay competitive YET is unwilling to do so while criticizing the way things are. It seems as if you have 2 choices: cheat or get out of the game.

Fats,

You hit it right on the head. This game is in my blood, for bettor or worse, and i backed off in a big way several yers ago for many reasons. This crap being one BIG reason. I know the score, and when a 7 yo gets claimed by Dutrow or one of the other malcontents and improved 6 lengths in his next start over his career best at a distance and over a surface he has run repeatedly over, all I can say is WTF ?

I have come to terms with it which is why I sparingly run in NY. Don't get me wrong, NJ is no pure white venue, and Philly has its predators as well. The game will never truly be what it should be until a ZERO tolerance policy is institiuted accross the board. What these horsemen don't realize is that they should fix it themselves, before the goverment steps in. Once that happens, as the saying goes FOGAETTABOUTIT........ See las vegas and the YOUBET fiacso for a reference.

If you were aquaintances with a trainer who had a horse that was unsound
and had that horse claimed away only to win for fun next out with one of these guys after being in his barn for 2 weeks would you think it was horsemenship ot chemistry ?

I don't know about you but, I have some aches and pains from running
and weighlifting for most of my life. When I play a pickup game with the 20-somethings at the local playground, I am shot for 3 or 4 days because I just break down physically....However, if I "have a little help from my friends", i'd woop up on them and feel alright the next day...until i was put into another barn and not able to win for a nickel !



Its the game, accept it, or i SHOULD get out as you say. I have chosen to be involved at a minimal level as an owner but if things were to change, i'd be more active for sure. Regarding Dutrow & biancone, throw the friggin book at them and kiss their asses goodbye, who would miss them ?

John

[Premier Turf Club]

Gee, if this is the case, and I'm certainly not doubting that it is as I've worked on the backstretch, it kind of makes that HUGE thread about workouts, where all the FORUM'S EXPERTS did their best to EDUCATE us, look kind of stupid.


It's absolutely the case. We have a number of ties to the clocker community. My partner clocks at KEE, one of his closet friends clocks, and PTC employs private clockers for big events. In most, not all, but most jurisdictions, workouts are a joke. There was a horse I gave John at SAR this year that had a missing 45 second 4F work from a mid-atlantic track. The horse was 12-1 in the ML shipping into SAR and paid $9. Every clocker on the east coast had heard about that one.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I wish I could say I was shocked, but does this really surprise anyone?

I think the host had a little "deer in the headlights" syndrome. He could have asked some very good questions once the good vet started talking.


I agree with you C.J....Those who THINK evil DO evil

[northerndancer]

Fats,

You hit it right on the head. This game is in my blood, for bettor or worse, and i backed off in a big way several yers ago for many reasons. This crap being one BIG reason. I know the score, and when a 7 yo gets claimed by Dutrow or one of the other malcontents and improved 6 lengths in his next start over his career best at a distance and over a surface he has run repeatedly over, all I can say is WTF ?

I have come to terms with it which is why I sparingly run in NY. Don't get me wrong, NJ is no pure white venue, and Philly has its predators as well. The game will never truly be what it should be until a ZERO tolerance policy is institiuted accross the board. What these horsemen don't realize is that they should fix it themselves, before the goverment steps in. Once that happens, as the saying goes FOGAETTABOUTIT........ See las vegas and the YOUBET fiacso for a reference.

If you were aquaintances with a trainer who had a horse that was unsound
and had that horse claimed away only to win for fun next out with one of these guys after being in his barn for 2 weeks would you think it was horsemenship ot chemistry ?

I don't know about you but, I have some aches and pains from running
and weighlifting for most of my life. When I play a pickup game with the 20-somethings at the local playground, I am shot for 3 or 4 days because I just break down physically....However, if I "have a little help from my friends", i'd woop up on them and feel alright the next day...until i was put into another barn and not able to win for a nickel !



Its the game, accept it, or i SHOULD get out as you say. I have chosen to be involved at a minimal level as an owner but if things were to change, i'd be more active for sure. Regarding Dutrow & biancone, throw the friggin book at them and kiss their asses goodbye, who would miss them ?

John

John,
I have lived your pain and frustration. I almost walked away from the game that is so passionately runs through my blood because of the unacceptable behaivor of the participants and those in charge of stewarding the ship.

What I did instead of walking away was to change my modis of operandi in relation to my own stable. I left NY, FL, LA & TX completely as these jurisdictions where tops on the list of naughty tactics, individuals and lame stewards of the industry.

I concentrated on slot revenue jurisidictions (Woodbine, Delaware, Charles Town, Moutaineer). I did keep horses in Maryland, Philadelphia and New Jersey just to keep current with the horse inventory for claiming purposes.

I stopped claiming horses from the Dutrow's of the world (Lake, Assmussen, Amoss). Basically any trainer that had a winning percentage of 20% or higher with multiple strings at various tracks.

I started to only claim from trainers with low percentages.

Since I have put this plan in motion things have been nothing but Blue Sky. I also enjoy the game much more as the 'super trainer' aspect never enters my mindset because if I see a trainer listed I just go right on by the horse.

Keep the faith my friend.
ND

[jma]

It appeared as if the good Dr. also wanted to open up some dialogue about Frankel. Byk didn't want to go there, however.

I probably just fail to comprehend the nuances of the issue.

All major sports are RIGGED. Life is RIGGED. It's all a fix. So, why wouldn't racing be rigged? This is the age of cheating. Cheating is a fact of life.

I was able to deal with the game nicely when Oscar and Ferraiola and those types were cheating; and I certainly am able to deal with the present day cheaters as well.

NYRA can do something about it. Then again, the NBA or the NFL or MLB can also ensure that every team and player are treated EQUALLY when it comes to the officiating. Or every fat/ugly broad out there can opt to pass on the cosmetic surgery and made do with what she has. Yeah.

We know how that's going.

That's what I wanted to say, but you said it in a much more colorful way.

[andicap]

considering dutrow's been suspended a couple of times on drug violations, would it really constitute slander to talk about his drug use?

A more interesting legal question is whether dutrow would be considered a "public figure" under slander laws and thus be held to a much higher standard in suing Sirius/Allday. The courts have had a very flexible attitude as to what constitutes a public figure.

[DeanT]

considering dutrow's been suspended a couple of times on drug violations, would it really constitute slander to talk about his drug use?

A more interesting legal question is whether dutrow would be considered a "public figure" under slander laws and thus be held to a much higher standard in suing Sirius/Allday. The courts have had a very flexible attitude as to what constitutes a public figure.
Excellent point, imo. I wonder if there are any legal folks here to address that.

Not only in the public figure aspect, but in the fact that this is racing. Eg: If someone sees a bike racer, magically and overnight start climbing mountains like he is Sir Edmund Hilary, he might be accused of blood doping. Mainly because time and time again, riders who have improved in this way are found to be using blood doping. It's "part of the sport". Not differently, the magical one week wonder trainers tend to also be caught with something sooner or later, and it too is part of the game. The culture of the game has to be looked at in context, imo.

[JustRalph]

considering dutrow's been suspended a couple of times on drug violations, would it really constitute slander to talk about his drug use?

A more interesting legal question is whether dutrow would be considered a "public figure" under slander laws and thus be held to a much higher standard in suing Sirius/Allday. The courts have had a very flexible attitude as to what constitutes a public figure.

Good question, but what does it cost to get that answer..........? that is the real problem.............even if you win..........you lose

If you have never been sued.........had to give depositions and put up with hiring lawyers etc..........you know what a bitch it can be..........luckily I never had to pay for it.......but have been sued a couple of times..........it sucks.............but I won both times without having to go through more than a few hearings.............

[john del riccio]

i just re-listened to the allday interveiw again and the one thing that has stuck in my head was the fact the the new jersey racing commission did NOT psoepena alldays records.....WTF ?????????


John

[Scav]

FYI, the topic is dominating today's show, and Allday will be on the air tomorrow for most of the day. Should be an amazing show.

[JustRalph]

i just re-listened to the allday interveiw again and the one thing that has stuck in my head was the fact the the new jersey racing commission did NOT psoepena alldays records.....WTF ?????????

John

maybe they will now...........?

subpoena.......from the latin..........Get your ass over here!

[Shenanigans]

John,




I concentrated on slot revenue jurisidictions (Woodbine, Delaware, Charles Town, Moutaineer). I did keep horses in Maryland, Philadelphia and New Jersey just to keep current with the horse inventory for claiming purposes.

ND

If you don't think there aren't any cheating trainers at that track think again. That place is crawling with nothing but.

[northerndancer]

If you don't think there aren't any cheating trainers at that track think again. That place is crawling with nothing but.

Can not argue that point at all....... I still like the ability to claim a certain type of horse out of that jurisdiction....... as far as wagering on their races no way no how....... only time my money goes into their pools is if I am wagering on one of my own in the race.

[Scav]

Allday on ATRAB right now

www.attheracesandbeyond.com (http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com)

[FastEddie]

It appeared as if the good Dr. also wanted to open up some dialogue about Frankel. Byk didn't want to go there, however.

I probably just fail to comprehend the nuances of the issue.

All major sports are RIGGED. Life is RIGGED. It's all a fix. So, why wouldn't racing be rigged? This is the age of cheating. Cheating is a fact of life.

I was able to deal with the game nicely when Oscar and Ferraiola and those types were cheating; and I certainly am able to deal with the present day cheaters as well.

NYRA can do something about it. Then again, the NBA or the NFL or MLB can also ensure that every team and player are treated EQUALLY when it comes to the officiating. Or every fat/ugly broad out there can opt to pass on the cosmetic surgery and made do with what she has. Yeah.

We know how that's going.

I also dealed with the Pistol Pete years in a very positve way. Once I got a better understanding on how he operated the money was flowing in at a rapid pace. He was the best at claiming cheap horses and pushing them up in class in addition to bringing them back on very short rest. As for Oscar, my favorite horse he claimed was Spark Off and I made quite a bit of money on him. The very sad part of all of this is that I saw him break down and it was horrible.

FastEddie