Is use of the whip cruel?

[highnote]

We have an interesting discussion going on in the George Washington thread. The issue of cruelty to horses came up.

It is my belief that the use of the whip is cruel. I don't have a strong belief because I haven't given it a lot of though. So I can probably be pursuaded to change my mind.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, opinions, beliefs or convictions.

[Semipro]

We have an interesting discussion going on in the George Washington thread. The issue of cruelty to horses came up.

It is my belief that the use of the whip is cruel. I don't have a strong belief because I haven't given it a lot of though. So I can probably be pursuaded to change my mind.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, opinions, beliefs or convictions. There is a very fine line between asking a horse for it's best and excessive beating.Gomez I thought abused his whip on Indian Blessing but my money was on it so I'm glad she won If she lost with a hand ride I sure would have been upset.I didn't really give direct answer to your question because I have mixed feelings on subject.

[46zilzal]

The majority of riders do not seem to understand that coaxing is just as important as abusing in the long run. I was very surprised this Summer, since my camera is on the backstretch during route races, as to how much strong whipping occurs EARLY in route races: I could hear the pops of the field going by after only 4-5 furlongs.

It is one thing to "wake up" a horse and another all together in hurting them.

I recall coming out of the stands one Saturday years ago. A horse was obviously not feeling well and never picked up his feet. This ass hit him over and over when he was dead last. I was happy to see that I wasn't the only one yelling at him from the stands but I yelled at him all the way back to the jocks room. He got days for that move.

[alysheba88]

It is cruel and completley unnecessary

[highnote]

It is cruel and completley unnecessary


That's kind of my feeling.

Wouldn't it be the mark of a great horseman if he/she could train his horses to run well without the use of a whip?

[46zilzal]

Del Mar many years ago. Apprentice had a whip and was told ONLY to show it to the horse to keep her mind on running. Horse is out front by 5 and the idiot smacks this filly across the flanks and she came to a complete STOP sending him over her head and onto the surface. Last mount he ever had....idiot.

[alysheba88]

That's kind of my feeling.

Wouldn't it be the mark of a great horseman if he/she could train his horses to run well without the use of a whip?

And drugs

[46zilzal]

And drugs
MOST drug use is fashion NOT necessity. I hear the harness guys talk all the time and if 10% knew anything about pharmaceuticals I would be amazed. "Well he's using it, so I must to!"

[highnote]

And drugs


So a jock whips the horse to make it run faster and then the horse bleeds. So the horse is given lasix to help prevent bleeding. So next time the jock can hit the horse and it can run faster.

It seems to me that the faster a horse runs the greater it's chances of an injury. Maybe bleeding is one of nature's break pedals?

[cj's dad]

If the whip were banned, would the riding abilities of the jockey come more to the forefront? I think so, IMO.

Overuse of the whip is a not so uncommon occurence and if it were banned all would be on a level playing field. I have never heard a comment to the effect that jockey "A" uses the whip better than jockey "B". Many have been fined/suspended for excessive use.

Good thread BTW.:ThmbUp:

[northerndancer]

So a jock whips the horse to make it run faster and then the horse bleeds. So the horse is given lasix to help prevent bleeding. So next time the jock can hit the horse and it can run faster.

It seems to me that the faster a horse runs the greater it's chances of an injury. Maybe bleeding is one of nature's break pedals?

Where do you get the connection that the whipping of a horse causes the bleeding....... if this was the case than you why do we experience bleeding in non whip equine activities (dressage, hunter jumpers, barrel racing).

IMO you are not informed enough about the bleeding issue. If you want to make your point about the whip use correct facts. Bleeding is caused by many factors (environmental, pedigree, feed program, bedding, etc.).

The use of the whip is an art form and the artist is the jockey. There are quality artists and ones who need to stop painting all together. I would recommend that before taking a stand more information is necessary (go speak to a quality artist).

[DeanT]

I dont think it is cruel in general, but it is overused. Shoemaker said that you could not whip a horse forward, but you could whip him backward. They get the message because they have been schooled with it their whole life. Horses are not going to learn to balance a checkbook, but they can be conditioned.

John Campbell, the winningest driver or rider, with something like $250M in earnings said that giving a horse two or three cracks is all that is needed most times. They understand.

[highnote]

http://www.breederscup.com/greatestmoments.aspx?divisionname=classic&year=1998

Check out the use of the whip by the jock during the stretch run of Swain in 1998 BC Classic. I think I counted between 14 and 17 strikes with the whip.

Does anyone know if the KY racing commission issued an opinion on this?

[OTM Al]

My understanding is that the horse has an instinctual bolting reflex when something touches their rear end. Thus the whip serves the purpose of causing that reflex to occur and perhaps get the horse to go a bit faster. That said though, there seems no good reason to hit the horse hard and it seems to me it will simply result in an angry or confused horse that won't be running as fast as possible.

[cj's dad]

http://www.breederscup.com/greatestmoments.aspx?divisionname=classic&year=1998

Check out the use of the whip by the jock during the stretch run of Swain in 1998 BC Classic. I think I counted between 14 and 17 strikes with the whip.

Does anyone know if the KY racing commission issued an opinion on this?

Being there and having wagered on Swain, I saw L Dettori hit Swain left-handed and continued to hit him as Swain drifted farther and farther to the right nearly leaving the track. Swain still held 3rd, and possibly would have won ( I can't guess the # of lengths lost from the 1/8 pole in) had he not been whipped on the same flank 14 - 15 times. He rightfully took a lot of heat for his blunder.

Several years later when Detorri won one of the big ones (T3 or BC) as he dismounted it was reported that he yelled something regarding Swain.

[46zilzal]

Daylami the next year in the Turf.

[Greyfox]

I am not a jockey. Some jockeys say that they need a whip as a safety measure. It helps with steering and control.
Personally, I don't like whipping. It many instances horses will run slower when whipped. However, if the whip is necessary as a safety measure, that's the way it is.

[shanta]

Wouldn't it be the mark of a great horseman if he/she could train his horses to run well without the use of a whip?

Oprah Winney comes to mind

[delayjf]

I know that the Stewards will sit a jock down for abusing his mount and that hitting any horse after the finish will draw their wrath as well. I have on occasion seen a Jockey hit a horse over his nose, but that may have been to prevent him from bolting. If that was not the case, I'd sit his sorry ass down.

The one incident that sticks out in my mind is Jeremy Rose hitting Afleet Alex in the stretch drive of the Belmont, had I been the Stewards, I would have fined him.

I would have no problem limiting the number of times a Jockey hits a horse.

[bane]

It's a tool and like every other tool it can be abused but when used correctly is quiet effective.

[highnote]

He rightfully took a lot of heat for his blunder.

And did the KY racing commission issue a penalty to Dettori?

Someone said in the GW post that racing commissions have rules in place to enforce excessive use of the whip.

If that wasn't excessive then where do you draw the line?

Maybe northerndancer can answer this. He/she seems to have all the facts on whipping. :D ;) Just kidding. Relax.

[russowen77]

What I think would be cruel would be to watch races without them. It would be fun to watch the juvies though. They would be wandering all over the place.

[highnote]

What I think would be cruel would be to watch races without them. It would be fun to watch the juvies though. They would be wandering all over the place.


Correct me if I'm wrong. In the early days of racing, horses didn't begin to race until they were mature -- 4 or 5 years of age, right?

So there would have been no juvie races. The horses would have several years of training before they even hit the track. Maybe the whip could be eliminated for a group of well-trained horses?

Maybe I'll start a new thread -- "Are races for 2 year olds cruel?" :D

[Softshoesureshot]

Back in the day, Victor Espinoza could really lay into a horse. I remember once watching him whack a horse 30 or 40 times with his left hand in the stretch, he was really beating this horse. But the horse was a big slow gelding, who gradually wore down his opponent and won by a neck.

The all time champ (in my opinion) for whip abuse in Southern California was Martin Pedroza. He has calmed down quite a bit from his younger years, where he would almost fall off the horse he was hitting it so hard.

[onefast99]

Felix ortiz never met a horse he didnt like to whip!

[russowen77]

Correct me if I'm wrong. In the early days of racing, horses didn't begin to race until they were mature -- 4 or 5 years of age, right?

So there would have been no juvie races. The horses would have several years of training before they even hit the track. Maybe the whip could be eliminated for a group of well-trained horses?

Maybe I'll start a new thread -- "Are races for 2 year olds cruel?" :D

Back in the olden days of my youth it was not so expensive to own a horse.

If you want to stop whip abuse ban the fans from watching the races. They get all out of sorts if a jock is not laying it own them.

i would like to point out that we are talking about thoroughbreds.

[jognlope]

you have 3 seconds to stop a cue, once the horse responds or the cue thereafter become useless. In normal riding, right after leg pressure and the horse moves forward, you release the leg pressure as a reward. The reward for the horse is release of pressure. So the hitting with the stick over and over even after the horse has sped up just seems useless. I think some jockeys wave the whip, dont really make a lot of contact.

I had a horse who had been soured out, got him to move forwared just by moutning, riding over to the fence, having someone hand me a whip, holding it in site of his right eye, not touching him with it, going a few steps, handing the whip back to the person at the fence and he was gas and go for the rest of the session.

Too bad jockeys cant spend some time with John Lyons. But then they are penalized if they dont whip!!!

[russowen77]

you have 3 seconds to stop a cue, once the horse responds or the cue thereafter become useless. In normal riding, right after leg pressure and the horse moves forward, you release the leg pressure as a reward. The reward for the horse is release of pressure. So the hitting with the stick over and over even after the horse has sped up just seems useless. I think some jockeys wave the whip, dont really make a lot of contact.

I had a horse who had been soured out, got him to move forwared just by moutning, riding over to the fence, having someone hand me a whip, holding it in site of his right eye, not touching him with it, going a few steps, handing the whip back to the person at the fence and he was gas and go for the rest of the session.

Too bad jockeys cant spend some time with John Lyons. But then they are penalized if they dont whip!!!

Was this a racing thoroughbred you are talking about? Was he a Swiss Yodeler colt or something?

We have a crypto filly down here that would love the fence move. She would figure out real quick that if she were fast enough she could get a twofer. She nailed me a couple of weeks ago when I dropped my guard for like a second.

[jognlope]

Do you have a picture, what is a cryto filly?


no just a quarter horse who had been spur abused

[russowen77]

Do you have a picture, what is a cryto filly?


no just a quarter horse who had been spur abused

I am talking about a Cryptoclearance filly.

We don't abuse stock. They pay the bills. I grew up with working stock quarter horses. I love them. For the most part they are sane. Well, maybe not the apps.

Not much need for pics. I am surrounded by throughbreds basically. I'll be taking a couple to LA shortly.

[jognlope]

that sounds interesting...wish i had a piece of it

[JWBurnie]

I feel whips are necessary equipment while riding in races. Riders use their whip for purposes other than striking a horse’s hind quarter. Horses are trained to know when they're being asked w/ a tap on the shoulder or just waving the whip for the horse to see (move one way or another, gain their attention, or asking for more). However, I don't agree with excessive whipping. IMO, it's no different than a cheap shot in any other sport. It's unnecessary and can lead to avoidable injury (to this horse or another). Whipping a horse to pick up 6th, while logging out in the last 1/16 is ridiculous. The horse is saying I'm tired and/or something doesn't feel right. I'm done. This horse should not be whipped.

IMO, riders should have to carry a whip similar to Steeplechase riders. I believe they're the same whips required in all racing in Europe. The whip is like a padded wand; it's a bit shorter and is one width from end to end (thin wire, wrapped in foam, covered w/ pleather). The whip makes more noise than anything else. I've hit myself in the leg pretty damn hard w/ one and it didn't hurt. I felt it, but nothing like the whip we're speaking of. I don't feel a horse associates pain w/ this type of whip, they receive it as being asked for something (and they want to give it to you if they have it) but again not necessary in many cases. That’s my two cents.

[Kelso]

whip similar to Steeplechase riders ... thin wire, wrapped in foam, covered w/ pleather. The whip makes more noise than anything else.

I've hit myself in the leg pretty damn hard w/ one and it didn't hurt. I felt it, but nothing like the whip we're speaking of.


I gave little thought to the whips until this past summer, when I saw one up close.

It isn't a whip at all. It's a stick with a pice of hard plastic attached to the end. It is an instrument designed for one purpose only - to inflict pain on a horse. It is a weapon.

Its use as designed is cruel and should be banned.

As to using a whip to steer a horse, jockeys who can't do that with the reins .... and horses who don't respond to same ... shouldn't be permitted to race.

Steeplechase whips, if they are indeed as benign as described above, sound reasonable ... although I don't understand the need for the leather wrap.

[Semipro]

Crap

[Semipro]

What I think would be cruel would be to watch races without them. It would be fun to watch the juvies though. They would be wandering all over the place.Purexactly

[Hosshead]

...
The all time champ (in my opinion) for whip abuse in Southern California was Martin Pedroza. He has calmed down quite a bit from his younger years, where he would almost fall off the horse he was hitting it so hard.
Pedroza never mastered the whip. He has never been able to whip a horse without turning his whole body.
It's not that he's always whipping harder than other jocks, it's just that he loses his balance by twisting his body to whip.
When this happens, it shifts his weight so badly, that I've seen him lose many,many stretch duels (over the years), because he actually threw his horse off stride.
In fact sometimes the extreme weight shift even causes the horse to change to the wrong lead, after the horse has already changed to the correct lead upon entering the stretch !
If you figure the race is going to come down to a stretch duel and Pedroza is on one of the mounts, - pick the other one,
- no matter who's riding !

[lilmegahertz]

If the whip were banned, would the riding abilities of the jockey come more to the forefront? I think so, IMO.

Overuse of the whip is a not so uncommon occurence and if it were banned all would be on a level playing field. I have never heard a comment to the effect that jockey "A" uses the whip better than jockey "B". Many have been fined/suspended for excessive use.

Good thread BTW.:ThmbUp:

Good point. Are they better jocks because they can abuse the animal better than the other guy? I cannot believe how many times you see a horse falling back to almost last, clearly tired, with no chance in heck to make it in time to win and the jock is just flailing away. Why beat the horse? Frustration that you are not going to win? Ban the whip, or make it a rule that you can only show it to the horse. I yell at the jockeys on their way to the dressing rooms if the proudly get their picture taken and there are marks on the horse from the excessive whip use. You should never beat an animal to get it to perform. As a fur child mom for many years, I have never hit or slapped any pet of mine just to get it to do something. Training is where it is at. Train without the whip and still you might get yourself a winner. I would like to see the horse beat the jockeys. Now that would be a sport...

[jma]

Correct me if I'm wrong. In the early days of racing, horses didn't begin to race until they were mature -- 4 or 5 years of age, right?

So there would have been no juvie races. The horses would have several years of training before they even hit the track. Maybe the whip could be eliminated for a group of well-trained horses?

Maybe I'll start a new thread -- "Are races for 2 year olds cruel?" :D

Are you talking about the REALLY olden days, like before racetracks? Man o' War ran 10 times as a 2-year-old, and that was in 1919.

I do agree that the whip is overused and racing would be better without it overall. You're never going to see 2-year-old races eliminated. You might see racing someday limit the use of the whip in baby races or something, but it would probably take PETA getting involved, which is NOT something you want.

[46zilzal]

When the Jockey Club was founded, around 1750, horses had to be 5 before they could start.

[highnote]

Are you talking about the REALLY olden days, like before racetracks? Man o' War ran 10 times as a 2-year-old, and that was in 1919.


I'm taling way before that. As 46zilzal wrote -- back in the 17 or 18 hundreds -- when thoroughbreds were supposedly more "stoutly bred".

The point I tried to make in the GW thread is that economics plays such a big role in racing things are done that should not be done just because of the desire of a thoroughbred owner to get a faster return on investment.

The primary reason 2 year olds race is so that owner's can recoup their money faster.

[Softshoesureshot]

Hosshead: I respectfully disagree with you re: Pedroza. I have watched him for years, and yes, he can be awkward in the way that he turns his body to whip, but that is only b/c he is looking to achieve maximum power when he hits the horse he is riding. Dude hits very hard when in the mood, even today.

I remember when I was younger watching Pat Day, I think, ride a horse named Tank's Prospect. Was it in the Preakness? Anyway, Pat delivered some serious blows to that horse in one of his rides, I always remember that one.

If whipping a horse severely was a crime, the following jocks in CA would be serving time:

Martin Pedroza: Consecutive life terms
Corey Nakatani: 5-10 years
Isiais Enriquez: 10-15 years
Victor Espinoza: Life, no parole
Martin Garcia: 15 years

Whipping a horse in the stretch can be effective, but in the last 100 yards of a tight stretch duel, I much prefer my jockey to punch the mount home with his hands, in rhythm with the horse. I can't tell you how many times I have seen jocks windmilling around, hitting a horse while inside the last 10 yards of a race, while the winner's jock is punching the horse home with his hands. Whipping a horse late in the race, inside 20-30 yards, is a complete waste of time in my opinion. Put the whip down, and ride.

[46zilzal]

Pat Day rode Tank's Prospect in the Preakness.

[46zilzal]

some studies have been done.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBK-4JCSJX4-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F17%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=22ae7fa3a09a44a356cb0e108aa74a9a

[Pell Mell]

I agree it would be great if they could ride without the whip. Wouldn't this then bring up the question of whether a horse was ridden out to the end, especially with regard to the finishers in tri and super wagering?

[DJofSD]

I'm curious to know, how many in this thread have ever ridden a horse let alone ridden short?

[Greyfox]

I'm curious to know, how many in this thread have ever ridden a horse let alone ridden short?
Good question DJofSD. But I'd rephrase it, as all of us have been on a Walmart Merry go round or fair pony. How many have ridden a thoroughbred 2 years and older?

[jognlope]

when younger, just QHs now

[jognlope]

The jockey cant use leg, dont use clicker trainig or voice training, so the whip is left. One solution would be to train to go faster with progressive use of whip from waving to hitting lighter than harder, depending on patience of trainer and horse response. But to teach just the waving cue, the horse would probably need progessive swats just to teach him "see you were supposed to go when I just waved it," and then progress back until he gets it. Thats just a pipe dream!!!!

[northerndancer]

I'm taling way before that. As 46zilzal wrote -- back in the 17 or 18 hundreds -- when thoroughbreds were supposedly more "stoutly bred".

The point I tried to make in the GW thread is that economics plays such a big role in racing things are done that should not be done just because of the desire of a thoroughbred owner to get a faster return on investment.

The primary reason 2 year olds race is so that owner's can recoup their money faster.

Just would like to know have you ever owned a 2yo thoroughbred......

Actually have you ever owned any thoroughbred race horse......

Would like to know if you speak from experience or opinion.

[DJofSD]

I have not been up on a two year old. I've ridden thoroughbred's but not for flat racing -- jumpers, dressage and three day event horses.

[jognlope]

Well Monty Roberts apparently believes in not using the whip, but like always, you have to get his book to find out why:


http://www.montyroberts.com/flag_whipinracing.html

[46zilzal]

He was to have been a contributor for Redford's movie The Horse Whisperer but backed out when they wanted to show a hobbled (leg tied up) horse.

[highnote]

I'm curious to know, how many in this thread have ever ridden a horse let alone ridden short?


I've ridden many horses and have never used a whip.

We used to ride my grandfather's ponies bareback when we were kids -- no reins, either! We'd just jump on them and go. Now that was a thrill.

[jognlope]

wish I had the video of the Arab trainer who uses hobbled legs, takes a completely unmanageable horse and makes him his puppy. There is a guy in Japan who uses it has videos on youtube

[46zilzal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SbYFHKkwAM

or check out this one as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAZocFmrB9U

[jognlope]

I startd to watch but cant. I have no apostrophe. But Im still looking for jap video. What I can agree with is something Mark Rashid does, its kind of tying up the one hind leg to his wrist and throwing the horse off balance -- he had to do this with a horse that simply would not move his feet and he does it in a nonthreatening way. just dont know about hobbling yet

[jognlope]

found his picture, guess this is after hes joined up or the horse is just plug exhausted


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c225/Endorphins4u2/shhhh.jpg

[46zilzal]

LOOK at the second one IT IS DIFFERENT.

[highnote]

Just would like to know have you ever owned a 2yo thoroughbred......

Actually have you ever owned any thoroughbred race horse......

Would like to know if you speak from experience or opinion.


I ran a small syndicate for two years -- HyperNormal.com Stables.

How about you? Do you own horses? If so, how many and where do you run them? What are their names? I'd be interested in watching them run if one of their races is on the internet.

You seem to be knowledgeable -- what is your experience in racing? Or do you just have opinions? ;)

----

In case you're interested...

We bought an unraced 3 year old. He eventually won. Then we sold him. He's now a pretty good show jumper in Georgia.

We also claimed a 3 or 4 year gelding. He hit the board for us quite a few times, but never won for us. I kept telling the trainer he needed a mile or mile and a sixteenth and that based on his pedigree and confirmation he wasn't a sprinter. The trainer entered him at a mile, but didn't train him to run a mile. Naturally, he didn't do well.

We eventually sold him. I told the new owners everything about him and showed them my research. He went on to win for the new owners at a mile. Not sure where he ended up.

After we sold our second horse we closed shop and went our separate ways. We had a good run. For us, it was cheap entertainment. In the end, each of us ended up spending 75 dollars per month over about a 27 month period. Lots of fun, but not without headaches.

I'll doubt I'll ever own horses with other people. It's good to share expenses, but not so good to have to share decision making.

[Nacumi]

Just would like to know have you ever owned a 2yo thoroughbred......

Actually have you ever owned any thoroughbred race horse......

Would like to know if you speak from experience or opinion.

Yes to all of the above. The whip is very useful as a safety measure and in training if used appropriately, BUT, I'm generally appalled at how it's applied at most tracks on any given day.
When jockeys resort to furious whipping instead of actual riding, that's not race riding; that's just laziness and bad form. Personally, I would love to see restrictions placed on jocks here (like they do in Europe) in terms of minimizing the number of times they can actually apply the stick during a race and penalizing them for committing an infraction. I'd also like to see whips banned altogether from baby races. Whipping two year olds into a frenzy to the wire, then jacking on their mouths and standing up on them just past it to pull them to a dead stop does ZERO for developing their minds and abilities. As an owner/breeder, I go nuts when I see jockeys "waterskiing" on horses and pulling their heads sideways to stop them before the first turn. Do us all a favor and let them gallop out so that the juvenile experience is a good one. Good hands and good rhythm are in short supply these days at most tracks.
Where are you, Eddie D?;)

[jognlope]

I will sometime look at that second one, did look like a nice lady ... maybe gentler...

Anyway here is the Rogue Busters video; I dont know where this guy is from, I correspond with him on another board. He gives me excellent tips, like lowering head before moutning to put the horse to sleep, he does know his stuff but I wouldnt even get a horse that needed this method, wouldnt go there I guess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6NUnAoRNLc

[46zilzal]

I will sometime look at that second one, did look like a nice lady ... maybe gentler...


2nd one has nothing to do with breaking, it is a joke

[jognlope]

that horse is fine not worse for wear, I would like to spend a day with endorphintap. Now I gotta get back to work...

[dav4463]

How much can it really hurt considering the size of a horse?

[gamester01]

If a horse really objected to it, he or she would stop running.
Some horses do not like it and the whip is not used on him/her.
Horses like to win. Can't you see how happy some are after winning.
Most know where the finish line is and will let up after passing it.

The animal rights people have gone too far.

Harness horses are not whipped as it would upset their stride.
The whip just hits the sulky rail.

[northerndancer]

Yes to all of the above. The whip is very useful as a safety measure and in training if used appropriately, BUT, I'm generally appalled at how it's applied at most tracks on any given day.
When jockeys resort to furious whipping instead of actual riding, that's not race riding; that's just laziness and bad form. Personally, I would love to see restrictions placed on jocks here (like they do in Europe) in terms of minimizing the number of times they can actually apply the stick during a race and penalizing them for committing an infraction. I'd also like to see whips banned altogether from baby races. Whipping two year olds into a frenzy to the wire, then jacking on their mouths and standing up on them just past it to pull them to a dead stop does ZERO for developing their minds and abilities. As an owner/breeder, I go nuts when I see jockeys "waterskiing" on horses and pulling their heads sideways to stop them before the first turn. Do us all a favor and let them gallop out so that the juvenile experience is a good one. Good hands and good rhythm are in short supply these days at most tracks.
Where are you, Eddie D?;)

Yes I also own and breed thoroughbreds and standardbreds. I currently compete in 10 jurisdicitions from East to West and North to South.

Your point in relation to whips and 2yo I agree....... I have actually not allowed the jock to carry the whip if I start a 2yo. I am very very patient with my young horses. If you rush them as 2yo they will usually not be quality older horses.

I have a difficult time accepting the conotation that it is the owner who is so hell bent on getting the horse to the races. Most of my fellow owners do not demand horses run early..... what we do expect is that the horse be ready to run when it does go over to race. I have started many a 4yo maiden because the horse took longer to mature.

I can state that I do not agree that the whip should be abolished in all races. I do believe that if a jock is too aggressive with his stick that the jock should be fined and or suspended. I will and have barred jockeys for too aggressive stick action.

In regard to waterskiing on my horses that is also a barable offense. If my jock does not allow the horse to gallop out after the race and hurries back then that jock will not ride for me.

Since I became more insistent with trainers in relation to how riders treat the horse things are much more enjoyable.

[jognlope]

i just love this M Roberts video but just trailer loading.. change of pace.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGsOV_eOYXk

[jognlope]

look closely and youll see the horse lick his lips, meaning ok, i am on board with you.

[russowen77]

Just a little data here.

I have my Dressage whip out and took some measuements. It is 47 inches long and the last 7 inches is just woven nylon. 2 points to ask the Dressage crowd. One is that the last 36 inches or so of all the ones I have ever seen and mine are woven nylon around a metal spring core. Metal being the key here. Two- they use it down around the feet. Here is a fact. I could rip out a chunk of a horses flank , do little about it, and they would probably be fine. However, any skin break around the hoof could be life threatening. I contend that Horses are cognizent of basics of that fact and the ones being cruel are the people who do Dressage. The same for the suckers who spot TN walkers.

BTW, I am the old poop who ends up with unwanted family pets. I am sure some of you maybe can relate. My Aussie thinks I am crazy also. :) Anyway, I am the keeper of a beautiful Blue registered almost all Denton Pit Bull. A dressage whip is the best trainer I have ever found for that particular breed. Do like the horse folks do. Touch them with the hard part but correct them with the soft. Everybody understands who the Alpha is now. :D

[DJofSD]

While I understand the comments related to the proper use of the whip in dressage, it does not have any bearing on the point be discussed in the thread. Proper use of the whip while training requires light use and forms an extension of the leg. The use of the whip during a race is something else altogether. And as far as the use of the whip on or around a horses legs, the only legitimate use I'm aware of is when teaching the begining of passage to ask the horse to exaggerate the amount the leg is elavated above the ground -- and then it is just to touch the ankle and would never be so hard as to break the skin. Any so called trainer in any form of training, flat, jumps, whatever, that would break the skin of the horse with the whip should have it used on them in the very same manner and degree

[russowen77]

So we do have a dressage person on board.

And I have never personally seen any jock break the skin. Tough to do back there anyway due to thickness. I am not taking any moral high ground here but there are plenty of posts that are alleging abuse. I disagree. I see much more "abuse" among private riding horse owners than any place else. Our animals are not abused imo. It is America, you can disagree. My stupid therory is that Dressage animals won't perform well, Race horses won't run well, and even mules won't plow well if they are unhappy and abuse makes them that way imo.

Hey, this is the digital age. Post your videos on line of us abusing horses. i am all for it. There has to be a few. We had couple move in here around back and proceeded to try and starve several for the insurance. Didn't happen but you know some yahoo will try something again and again.

[alysheba88]

If a horse really objected to it, he or she would stop running.
Some horses do not like it and the whip is not used on him/her.
Horses like to win. Can't you see how happy some are after winning.
Most know where the finish line is and will let up after passing it.

The animal rights people have gone too far.

Harness horses are not whipped as it would upset their stride.
The whip just hits the sulky rail.


How do you know what horses know and think? By most accounts they are very stupid animals in comparison to others.

As far as the finish line they respond to the jockeys commands, not vice versa

[Kelso]

I'm curious to know, how many in this thread have ever ridden a horse let alone ridden short?


Never rode short. But, then again, never was paid big bucks for having claimed to be able to do so, and well, either.

[highnote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SbYFHKkwAM

or check out this one as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAZocFmrB9U


Interesting technique. Never seen that done. (especially the 2nd link. :D )

I can't tell if it's hobbling is good or not. The man who is doing it claims it is useful because it teaches them to deal with getting tangled up so that they don't panic.

Other posters said it is cruel.

Having never trained horses I have no idea. I can only say that it looks interesting. Maybe the best thing to do is to minimize the chances of your getting tangled up in the first place.

Then again, maybe that is not possible if you use your horses in certain types of environments.

[kyle2227]

I've seen many a jock use the whip after the horse corses the finish line. In my mind that is unacceptable.

[Semipro]

Well had alot horses in my youth our pasture was only seperated by fence from backyard.My Dad bought me full Quarter named Buck could run a hole in the wind.only trouble was every time we get a few miles from home he could start Bucking (unfortunatly he could buck as well as he could run)and leave me flat on my ass.Sold him the the local badass, ran in into him while later asked how's ole Buck. He replied best damn hunting horse I've ever had so i say how the hell did you break him. His answer was I rode with reigns in left hand baseball bat in right took two weeks of pounding him over head but he finally broke. That my friends is cruelty wanted to punch him in the face but like I said he was the local badass. Back to subject I don't any horse standing in winners circle with blood streaming down them and the only jock that knew when to tap and when to not was Pat Day so many hand ride wins.

[Shenanigans]

I've ridden short. I've broke yearlings and galloped race horses. Whips in races can aid in controlling a horse. If anyone remembers Broad Brush bolting with Angel Cordero in a race, if it hadn't been for the whip, they would have been in the parking lot. He went on to win the race.
I have had a few experiences where it helped in controlling the horse I was riding. One tried bolting out of the gap on the track. The whip kept that from happening.
In breaking yearlings the whip is used for schooling and to get the horses' attention. But, I have often wondered about the fact that when they get to the races and the first time they get hit in a work are they wondering "what did I do wrong to deserve this?" I have worked horses that when hit, they all but stop. So I made sure to tell the trainer that the horse will not run if hit. Some do sulk and some will run faster. It's whether or not the jockey recognizes that in the horse.
I have also seen whip abuse in races too. Yes, a whip can too cut a horses' thick skin. I have seen horses sliced up in the flanks. The jockey usually catches it from the trainer too.

[Drift]

I think the use of a whip, crop, whatever is a necessary aid in all disciplines. But it must be used in an educated way to be effective-just like with spurs.
I've noticed Mike Smith hits his horse about every stride down the stretch. For some reason I am fixed on it now. I can't tell if they are simply smacks or hard hits...does anybody think he over does it?

[jognlope]

You are supposed to instantly stop the cue once the horse responds, to avoid the cue becoming meaningless, why I dont understand when they keep whipping past finish line or close to it.


When Clint Anderson is teaching head down and collecton for WP horse, not racing, he demonstrates tightening the reins, getting horse to respond by lowering head and he actually throws his hands up and releases the reins as the thank you.

[delayjf]

The jockey usually catches it from the trainer too.

And the stewards,

[Shenanigans]

And the stewards,


Only if it's reported to them or they see it first hand (which they usually don't since they are seldom on the track after the race.)

[delayjf]

I believe somebody is down on ground level after the race ( Vet or other track personnel) that will report these kinds of things to the Stewards.

I'm not sure were I used to read this, but some publication would print the various stewards rulings and list the fines the stewards levied against backstretch employes for various violations ( i.e smoking in the barn area, etc.) and it was not uncommon to see the Stewards fine a jockey for excessive use of the whip, animal abuse is they came back cut in the flanks, or hitting a horse past he finish line.

Maybe they don't do that as much as they used to, I wouldn't know. So Cal Fan is at the track everyday in SoCal, maybe she could give us her insight.

[Shenanigans]

I believe somebody is down on ground level after the race ( Vet or other track personnel) that will report these kinds of things to the Stewards.

I'm not sure were I used to read this, but some publication would print the various stewards rulings and list the fines the stewards levied against backstretch employes for various violations ( i.e smoking in the barn area, etc.) and it was not uncommon to see the Stewards fine a jockey for excessive use of the whip, animal abuse is they came back cut in the flanks, or hitting a horse past he finish line.

Maybe they don't do that as much as they used to, I wouldn't know. So Cal Fan is at the track everyday in SoCal, maybe she could give us her insight.


The track vet is the one on the track but he is usually too busy looking for bleeders and limping horses. On a rare occassion would a track vet report whip abuse. They tend to look the other way.

The DRF use to print rulings. They no longer do. I guess they didn't want the betting public to see all the cheating trainers out there that only get slaps on the hand.:rolleyes:

[Hajck Hillstrom]

It's a tool, and like every other tool it can be abused, but when used correctly is quiet effective.This is the best comment in the thread.

Gary Steven's Dad, Ron, taught him at a young age that "races were won with a jock's hands in the dashboard."

The overuse of the whip is often a shameful display, and is an act that can only be overlooked by the most callous fans of the sport.

It is one of the major reasons why the public refuses to embrace the sport.

We, the fans of the sport, so often turn a blind eye to the subject. The jock we employ can only stick right handed, so I support our trainer's use of him. At least he can't abuse an animal with both hands.

[advancedcapper]

Is it cruel? For the most part, I'd lean towards no. I've seen excessive whipping that was indeed cruel. Should it be banned? I say no.

The whip does make a horse run faster. Case in point. Have you ever seen a horse in a hand ride down the stretch and the jock is "showing" him the whip at eye level. This horse will still give a harder effort than the one not being whipped.

But, overall, there should be some type of way to police the use of the whip, as Ive seen horses 10 in front still getting "beat" and not "whipped". There is a difference, wheather you believe it, or not.

ac

[lilmegahertz]

I just don't see why the horse has to be whipped when the race is almost over and it has no way in the world of getting in the money. By then the jockey should just go along for the ride....

[skate]

the whip is for show.

mater of fact, if you keep hitting the horse, sooner or later the horse has gotta think "he wants me to slow down".


win
place
show;)

[Greyfox]

I just don't see why the horse has to be whipped when the race is almost over and it has no way in the world of getting in the money. By then the jockey should just go along for the ride....

:ThmbUp: There's no use whipping a dead horse.

[Kelso]

The whip does make a horse run faster. Case in point. Have you ever seen a horse in a hand ride down the stretch and the jock is "showing" him the whip at eye level. This horse will still give a harder effort than the one not being whipped.
If the sight of the whip produces a response of any sort from a horse, it's because he associates the whip with pain. Forming that association requires that pain be inflicted on the horse, by whipping, at some time or other ... and that is cruel.




But, overall, there should be some type of way to police the use of the whip
Any rule beyond "zero" whipping is arbitrary, subjective and, consequentially, ineffective.




Ive seen horses 10 in front still getting "beat" and not "whipped". There is a difference, wheather you believe it, or not.
Aw, c'mon! Does one feel "good" ... or does it feel only less PAINFUL than the other?

[advancedcapper]

When whipping like that, I assume they are teaching the horse to run the full race and not slow up when beaten. But, I am guessing here. It is kind of silly, huh? If not cruel.

ac

[cj's dad]

Correct me if I'm wrong, ( and you will) isn't this subject of excessive whipping the reason Chavez has the nickname "chop chop"?

[advancedcapper]

Correct you if I'm wrong.

Here's one for you. If you don't like my posts, don't read them. As for this subject, I agreed that there is excessive whipping.

Just because your thoughts and views on handicapping don't agree with me, you don't have to be the way you are. If you disagree with my thoughts, you should gather a rational, sane thought and presented it to me. That is the problem with forums. Everyone is a genius, but no one can back up they brainly thoughts.

If you post a question, you should comsider the answers you will get.

I disagree with the whipping, yes. But you know what. If they took it away from racing, i'd have to find a job. Bottom line. IT DOES ENCOURAGE THE ANIMAL TO RUN FASTER. It may be wrong, but I dodn't make the rules of evolution that made man above a horse.

I do know this though. If I sided with you as what seems to be a complete hardcore protestor, i wouldn't bet the ponies. I have morals. Hurry up to the track, so you can watch your horse in a duel and remember to yell, "stop whipping the #4, stop whipping the #4".

ac

[cj's dad]

Correct you if I'm wrong.

Here's one for you. If you don't like my posts, don't read them. As for this subject, I agreed that there is excessive whipping.

Just because your thoughts and views on handicapping don't agree with me, you don't have to be the way you are. If you disagree with my thoughts, you should gather a rational, sane thought and presented it to me. That is the problem with forums. Everyone is a genius, but no one can back up they brainly thoughts.

If you post a question, you should comsider the answers you will get.

I disagree with the whipping, yes. But you know what. If they took it away from racing, i'd have to find a job. Bottom line. IT DOES ENCOURAGE THE ANIMAL TO RUN FASTER. It may be wrong, but I dodn't make the rules of evolution that made man above a horse.

I do know this though. If I sided with you as what seems to be a complete hardcore protestor, i wouldn't bet the ponies. I have morals. Hurry up to the track, so you can watch your horse in a duel and remember to yell, "stop whipping the #4, stop whipping the #4".

ac

Are you talkin to me ????

[advancedcapper]

Let's see...........You wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, ( and you will) isn't this subject of excessive whipping the reason Chavez has the nickname "chop chop"?

Obviously, you are either smitten with me or you have complete respect for my opinion, in that you expect me to give you the correct answer. Either that, or you ask a question, don't like the answer, so you insult the peoson with a smart remark. Why would you think I would correct you?

I openly stated that there should be some type of system in place to watch this action. The problem is that there are people, not unlike yourself that can't give an unbiased opinion on the subject.

Should there be whips? I say YES. Should a jockey be allowed to "whip excessively"? I'm sure there is a limit, but who is to say what that limit is?

If a horse gets hit 25x down the stretch and loses by a scant nose, should he have been hit ONE MORE TIME? I say yes. If he loses by 3 lengths and the jockey thinks he needed those 25 hits to keep close, was it ok. I still say yes. It is so easy, after a race to see a winning or losing horse and say the use was excessive, but who really knows.

Like I stated eariler in the post you replied to. I know the whip makes horses run faster, either by fear or the sting or the threat of it. I know this because I see horses "shown" the whip that respond with another gear all the time.

And as a gambler, i know one thing that is 100% factual. I've never heard anyone say, "stop whipping" when their horse is in a stretch duel.

Do you play?

Oh, yes, I was talking to you.

[PaceAdvantage]

One thing newbies here shouldn't have is an attitude. It doesn't lead to productive threads, just personal crap. Personal crap gets deleted, and if continued, the newbie gets deleted.

[alysheba88]

Let's see...........You wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, ( and you will) isn't this subject of excessive whipping the reason Chavez has the nickname "chop chop"?

Obviously, you are either smitten with me or you have complete respect for my opinion, in that you expect me to give you the correct answer. Either that, or you ask a question, don't like the answer, so you insult the peoson with a smart remark. Why would you think I would correct you?

I openly stated that there should be some type of system in place to watch this action. The problem is that there are people, not unlike yourself that can't give an unbiased opinion on the subject.

Should there be whips? I say YES. Should a jockey be allowed to "whip excessively"? I'm sure there is a limit, but who is to say what that limit is?

If a horse gets hit 25x down the stretch and loses by a scant nose, should he have been hit ONE MORE TIME? I say yes. If he loses by 3 lengths and the jockey thinks he needed those 25 hits to keep close, was it ok. I still say yes. It is so easy, after a race to see a winning or losing horse and say the use was excessive, but who really knows.

Like I stated eariler in the post you replied to. I know the whip makes horses run faster, either by fear or the sting or the threat of it. I know this because I see horses "shown" the whip that respond with another gear all the time.

And as a gambler, i know one thing that is 100% factual. I've never heard anyone say, "stop whipping" when their horse is in a stretch duel.

Do you play?

Oh, yes, I was talking to you.


Beat the horse into submission as long as you cash a bet is that the idea? Or not even cashing a bet but when the bet is in question any amount of whipping is okay? Did I get that right?

By the way you seem to keep saying if you dont like my posts dont read them whenever you are questioned about your opinion. Is that the only option on a forum? To agree or ignore? Agree with PA, all for edgy posts but you need to tone it down

[jognlope]

As long as newbies get treated equally to long-time members.

[PaceAdvantage]

As long as newbies get treated equally to long-time members.Actually, I think long-time members should be treated with more leniency than newbies. Long-time members have contributed much more and should be given the benefit of the doubt compared to someone who has just registered. Would you not agree?

[cj's dad]

Actually, I think long-time members should be treated with more leniency than newbies. Long-time members have contributed much more and should be given the benefit of the doubt compared to someone who has just registered. Would you not agree?

When I said "correct me if I'm wrong", I was asking simply if Jorge Chavez had his nickname because of excessive whipping, no more no less

I was referring to the multitude of people here who will readily correct one for getting the facts wrong.

A'capper, I was NOT referring to you

[advancedcapper]

So, the guy who insulted me for the second time with the "and you will" comment is on the right sid eand I am the who who takes his crap. Interesting.

Not to worry PaceAdvantage, as i am very quick to "ignore" these guys, so it won't happen again.

Positive chit chat is fine. I get insulted and i throw an insult back and ignore them foeever.

But, from now on, i will just ignore them and let it be, ok?

ac

[cj's dad]

So, the guy who insulted me for the second time with the "and you will" comment is on the right sid eand I am the who who takes his crap. Interesting.

Not to worry PaceAdvantage, as i am very quick to "ignore" these guys, so it won't happen again.

Positive chit chat is fine. I get insulted and i throw an insult back and ignore them foeever.

But, from now on, i will just ignore them and let it be, ok?

ac

Did it ever occur to you that I did not SEE the first "and you will" remark in someone elses' quote:confused:

[Greyfox]

As I read cj'sdad's post it was directed as a general question to all readers of the board. Unfortunately one forum member seems to think that any post coming in right after his is directed towards him when it is not.

[advancedcapper]

.................As I read two messages from Greyfox and cj's dad trying to backpeddle the isuue that the message they sent to ME wasn't intended to me. It came into my e-mail. It was in reference to a post that I made, but it was intended for someone else??

Either way, it was rude in nature and shouldn't to whomever it was sent to and should no be allowed wheather they have been here 1 day, 1 month or 1 year.

IF YOU CAN'T SAY NOTHING NICE. LEAVE.

I FOR ONE AM HERE TO GET BETTER, NOT HARRASS EVERYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH ME, HENCE THE IGNORE BUTTON.

I AM SUPPOSED TO PROOF-READ MY MESSAGES FOR ZILZAL, AND AGREE WITH EVERYONE ALL THE TIME? IF I SGREED WITH EVERYONE ABOUT RACING ALL THE TIME, I WOULD BE BROKE.

CONTRIBUTE OR LEAVE IS MY MOTTO.

[Greyfox]

.................As I read two messages from Greyfox and cj's dad trying to backpeddle the isuue that the message they sent to ME wasn't intended to me. It came into my e-mail. It was in reference to a post that I made, but it was intended for someone else??

.

:lol: I haven't sent anyone an e-mail in a month or so. PA can confirm that.

[jognlope]

I think the same standards should be used for all, but more leniency I guess with long-time members, yes they should have some clout.

[cj's dad]

As I read cj'sdad's post it was directed as a general question to all readers of the board. Unfortunately one forum member seems to think that any post coming in right after his is directed towards him when it is not.

hey A,capper, if you are as paranoid as you seem, don't look behind you, someone may actually be following you. for the love of God man, "GROW UP":D

[Hajck Hillstrom]

IF YOU CAN'T SAY NOTHING NICE. LEAVE.Remind me not to disagree with you. I think Billy-boy said it best with "Methinks thou doest protest too much."

[PaceAdvantage]

:lol: I haven't sent anyone an e-mail in a month or so. PA can confirm that.He's talking about the email alerts that some people use that notify them when a reply is made in a thread where they have participated....

Getting that email doesn't mean the reply was made TO YOU. It just means a reply was made IN A THREAD WHERE YOU HAVE PARTICIPATED....

There are some serious misunderstandings going on here in this thread...everyone take a deep breath and hit the reset button.

[Kelso]

Actually, I think long-time members should be treated with more leniency than newbies. Long-time members have contributed much more and should be given the benefit of the doubt compared to someone who has just registered. Would you not agree?

I would not; particularly when one is responding in-kind. Arrogance and belligerence is arrogance and belligerence, regardless of seniority.

Your board, so your calls. But all should be treated equally.