best of 3

[orlando]

Hello folks of the board, how are you all doing? Folks I am at a crossroad the question is which program works better for you (1) synthesis (2) pace launcher (3) MPH. your input is important as there are some find pace cappers on this board. I thank you all in advance. Orlando.

[46zilzal]

I am biased of course, but Synthesis and Pace Launcher are essentially the same presented in different packages.

[Ted Craven]

I'll confess my biases as well, but when I used PaceLauncher and Synthesis, I preferred Synthesis because of the Bottom Line/Betting Line component (though the memory fades...). If you're OK with downloading data, I'm guessing Sartin would recommend going all the way to his final software, Valdiator 4 (or its Windows counterpart).

Ted

[Jingle]

Orlando

You will not go wrong using MPH, ver 1.3. This was the last version by Ken Massa & Brohamer. Its the one that automatically picks 1 or 2 pacelines. May also have the Quirin Pace & Speed Module.

I have been using it since 1996. Get your final contenders down to 5-6 horses and keep a model. Guarantee you'll be in the short line.

I'm not familiar with those 2 Sartin Programs but have most of the others.

[njcurveball]

I guess people who drive 1996 cars like them just as well as new ones.

MPH is a caveman compared to the current HTR program. There is also a complimentary program called MAXVEL.

I doubt the older ones can compare.

Synthesis and Pace Launcher would be higher on my list if they used HDW data.

[Jingle]

NJCURVEBALL

You're wrong. Even a Caveman can win.

I agree--I believe HTR is the best program on the market. I have used HTR and Maxvel but don't short change MPH with CJ's numbers, honest.

[njcurveball]

You're wrong. Even a Caveman can win.



LOL! I liked this one! :lol:

I agree 100% that with an experienced Indian it the archer and not the arrow.

I take questions like these as being from "newbies".

Totally agree with you Jingle that a good handicapper can win with most of the good programs. :ThmbUp:

Seemed to me every time Sartin came out with another program there were a few pages in the follow up on how Brohamer used it to pick the winner.

[Tom]

Actually, I use MPG over HTR's velocity page. I find it far more versitle in that I can enter several races for each horses see each race individually, not averaged. I use the rest of HTR, but not the velocity.

[46zilzal]

Strange, velocity has changed as a concept in 11 years? Don't think so.....The fellow's SELLING programs might want you to think that.

After learning on many programs, I believe I could go back and use Energy, KGEN, Thoromation or Phase III to win today.

[Tom]

Learn to read! :lol:

No one said concepts changed. Just better programs.

[Jingle]

Tom

You're right on and I did the same with HTR. I like to see several lines not averaged with MPH.

If you have the Quirin Module, try the Pace & Speed Figs with CJ's numbers.

[orlando]

hey thank you for your input but the question was very simple nothing more nothing less as far as being a new babe if been at it since 1971 now thats a caveman, and also its my full time biz. so thanks again.

[njcurveball]

I find it far more versitle in that I can enter several races for each horses see each race individually, not averaged. I use the rest of HTR, but not the velocity.

I thought this was a really good suggestion Tom. I am not a fan of averaging pace lines either. Hopefully Ken will put this in the next Maxvel! :ThmbUp:

[njcurveball]

now thats a caveman.

OK, then, I will have to recommend MPH for you, it's soooo easy... :jump:

[Tom]

I thought this was a really good suggestion Tom. I am not a fan of averaging pace lines either. Hopefully Ken will put this in the next Maxvel! :ThmbUp: I put in on the wish list. :)

[plainolebill]

Jingle, I thought MPH used trackmaster files. How do you get the bris? (CJ) files to load?

Thanks

[Tom Barrister]

If we have to pick one of the three listed programs, I'll choose MPH. However, in doing so, I'd still use HTR, as it's basically an improved version of MPH with many more bells and whistles.

[Jingle]

Plainolebill

You must have the 1.4 ver distributed by Trackmaster. Ver 1.3 is the one I use. I don't think the 1.4 ver automatically picks pacelines either.

[46zilzal]

ANY program that automatically picks pace lines won't get my support. Rarely use a single one anyway.

[Jingle]

46zilzal

MPH only "suggests" representative lines for today's race. If I don't agree I toss it and pick another. Its that easy--even a caveman can do it.

Imagine how this game would be if we all did the same thing!

[Tom]

HTR has several paceline selection methods.
All can be tested, filtered, results monitored.
In a long term test, no one was able to outperfom PL5 in terms of ROI.
One of the methods is you choose, so you can have whatever suits your needs.

[ddog]

ANY program that automatically picks pace lines won't get my support. Rarely use a single one anyway.

use HTR PL5 and never pick any line.
Go with the lines as picked and then quick scan to determine will horse run to the lines picked yes or no.

Easy and quick , if he won't then I forget him for wagering.

K.I.S.S.

That's all I got , but seems good enough.
:)

[spilparc]

Synthesis and Pace Launcher would be higher on my list if they used HDW data.

What documentation do you have that HDW data is superior to Trackmaster data or any other data for that matter? Doesn't it all come from Equibase?

[spilparc]

Actually, I use MPG(H?) over HTR's velocity page. I find it far more versitle in that I can enter several races for each horses see each race individually, not averaged. I use the rest of HTR, but not the velocity.

Maxvel has a very good interface and is fast and easy to navigate. It's major drawback is not being able to use unadjusted data or to look at the data in a user defined format.

[46zilzal]

Best of last three means nothing if they don't represent the type of pace stresses in those lines that the same horse will be exposed to this day.

[andicap]

Best of last three means nothing if they don't represent the type of pace stresses in those lines that the same horse will be exposed to this day.


Got to agree with 46 -- picking a line that approximates what today's pace "stress" will be is always an excellent idea. I pick two types of lines in using HTR and its velocity/energy figs.

1. Best of last few -- today's distance structure/surface. But I make corrections if it appears an anomoly. And I go back if the horse is 2nd/3rd off a layoff.

2. Best approximates today's pace scenario. I use this line in my energy calucations for the race.

After all this I must say the horses that have fooled me the most that I respect more than I used to are high quality, lightly raced horses who won on or near the lead with a Slow-Fast pace picture. I used to just eliminate them figuring they couldn't put up with a quick pace.
But I noticed a lot of them (not the cheapies, just the good ones) just adjust their running style and run back to their %E. In other words they learn to rate.
This is more with sprints than routes especially at two turns, but it still happens.
The horse that comes to mind the most is Came Home who finished a good second in some 3 yr stakes with a weak pace figure. His %E showed he could rate -- and he did. Not every horse does this -- some are still swept off their feet so I let the odds/trainer/class dictate my decisions.

[Tom]

Who said anything about using best of 3 for a paceline?
That 3 in this thread are software programs.

[shanta]

Best of last three means nothing if they don't represent the type of pace stresses in those lines that the same horse will be exposed to this day.

Of course folks who have been doing just this and profiting for years might disagree.

[46zilzal]

The horse that comes to mind the most is Came Home who finished a good second in some 3 yr stakes with a weak pace figure. His %E showed he could rate -- and he did. Not every horse does this -- some are still swept off their feet so I let the odds/trainer/class dictate my decisions.
Near the end of his career, about the time of the Pac Classic and the Breeder's Cup, his % median, like many other horses I discovered by studying them retrospectively when their form mysteriously reversed, WENT NOTICEABLY HIGHER right along with his form regression. Saw this with Street Sense and first noted it with Pico Central.

[First_Place]

njcurveball said:

"I doubt the older ones can compare."

Doubt on. New doesn't necessarily mean better. I've successfully analyzed many races with so-called outdated computer programs, e.g., Sartin's early 'stuff,' etc. But hey, that's me, something that I do, especially when I'm bored.

New or old programs, the final say-so is (should be) the biological computer inside your cranium. That's the one that should override what the binary one tells him if something doesn't look or 'feel' right.*

If your biological computer is deficient all the best/latest computer programs in the world--in the long term--are not going to make you a 'winning,' i.e., profitable pari-mutuel fund investor.

Computer programs are only a tool. I know this has been said many times before, but who really listens?

Remember: using numbers solely to analyze a horse race many times will present you with a mirage. I too wish there were a black box program that would eliminate all human judgement! It sure would be great to get rid of mental fatigue once and for all time! But that's a pipe-dream that'll never become a reality--at least not in our lifetime...if ever.

FP

*Provided one is capable, i.e., has the talent, of doing so correctly in the 'first place.'

[46zilzal]

Remember: using numbers solely to analyze a horse race many times will present you with a mirage. I too wish there were a black box program that would eliminate all human judgement! It sure would be great to get rid of mental fatigue once and for all time! But that's a pipe-dream that'll never become a reality--at least not in our lifetime...if ever.

Wow, then this 25 year mirage is one for the books then!

Programs, unlike your perception of them, are tools not unlike the DRF. Using them that way makes for long term success.

[andicap]

Who said anything about using best of 3 for a paceline?
That 3 in this thread are software programs.

oops my bad -- I guess I'm still jet-lagged. :blush:

[Houndog]

Actually, I use MPG over HTR's velocity page. I find it far more versitle in that I can enter several races for each horses see each race individually, not averaged. I use the rest of HTR, but not the velocity.

Tom, have you ever changed the pars for certain tracks in MPH, or do you stay with the "Master Pars" that came with the program? So far I have used the Beyer adjusment (using the Bris) figure with the Bris DRF Download.

Thanks.

[Tom]

I use the default pars.
Tried others, but not really worth the effort.

[jonnielu]

njcurveball said:

"I doubt the older ones can compare."

Doubt on. New doesn't necessarily mean better. I've successfully analyzed many races with so-called outdated computer programs, e.g., Sartin's early 'stuff,' etc. But hey, that's me, something that I do, especially when I'm bored.

New or old programs, the final say-so is (should be) the biological computer inside your cranium. That's the one that should override what the binary one tells him if something doesn't look or 'feel' right.*

If your biological computer is deficient all the best/latest computer programs in the world--in the long term--are not going to make you a 'winning,' i.e., profitable pari-mutuel fund investor.

Computer programs are only a tool. I know this has been said many times before, but who really listens?

Remember: using numbers solely to analyze a horse race many times will present you with a mirage. I too wish there were a black box program that would eliminate all human judgement! It sure would be great to get rid of mental fatigue once and for all time! But that's a pipe-dream that'll never become a reality--at least not in our lifetime...if ever.

FP

*Provided one is capable, i.e., has the talent, of doing so correctly in the 'first place.'

I'll agree that the computer between my ears is pretty good, but then when I'm programming it I try to remember the garbage in garbage out adage.

I figure if the geeks ever consider the old adage, they might be able to program well enough to start bringing the pipe dream into view.

[jonnielu]

I use the default pars.
Tried others, but not really worth the effort.

Figures, monkey see, monkey do.

[shanta]

New or old programs, the final say-so is (should be) the biological computer inside your cranium. That's the one that should override what the binary one tells him if something doesn't look or 'feel' right.*

If your biological computer is deficient all the best/latest computer programs in the world--in the long term--are not going to make you a 'winning,' i.e., profitable pari-mutuel fund investor.

Computer programs are only a tool. I know this has been said many times before, but who really listens?


Wow just seeing this now.
Sharp post FP and one I totally agree with. I'm listening :)

[Tom]

Figures, monkey see, monkey do.

Do you have some sort of mental problem, dude?
Why don't you grow up and stop impersonating Vet Scratch?
Please leave the threads on topic - you can play with your little numbers.

[orlando]

Tom there allways a a** hole some where. I asked a simple question and get back bull s*** remarks.

[PaceAdvantage]

Figures, monkey see, monkey do.What am I missing here? Is there a reason for this?

[gallahadion]

those who can, bet and win and wouldn't tell their mother who they picked before the race was run.
those who can't , write books, program software and sell systems.

the reason that handicapping books, systems and software programs exist is that the authors of them can make more money selling those things to YOU than they can betting the ponies, period, end of story!!!!

[gallahadion]

i might redact myself on the period end of story comment after seeing HSH website and reading their tour section. I must say I am impressed with their philosophical approach and might just try them out.

[njcurveball]

those who can't , write books, program software and sell systems.



http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=23104

I hear this Massa guy programs software and does pretty well. :ThmbUp: