George Washington

[beertapper]

sad news..

early reports say he had to put euthanized after the race..

[Premier Turf Club]

What in the hell were they doing running that horse in the slop? He had about as much chance to win that race as I would have. How could running him in the slop have had a happy ending? He doesn't finish dead last?

Reports are he lost his footing, stepped in a soft spot on the track and snapped his cannon bone. What the f**k were those guys thinking?

[lilmegahertz]

It so makes me mad when folks say "yes, but that is horseracing." God I just want to hit them. True this does happen but, that doesn't make it any less easier to ignore. Please help me out here, but wasn't he a grass horse originally or am I thinking of another horse?

[chickenhead]

I'm really sorry to hear this. I was at the OTB, and didn't even notice. I don't think anyone did since they never showed any of it.

[jhilden]

On ESPN, you could not see what happened during the race, but after, they did show a live shot of the curtains set up on the track – that told all.

[horsetalk]

Gosh what a disgrace, that horse deserved to be on the turf for the last 2 years to strut his stuff.
:mad:

[alysheba88]

The real sad thing is they retired him. But only because he couldnt breed they brought him back to "maximize their investment"

[ceejay]

He had about as much chance to win that race as I would have.underestimating your chances.....

[jognlope]

Sickening turn of fate, bringing him out of retirement. Ruined the day for me.

[Nacumi]

We were watching the races with our trainer, and she observed how badly GW was going on the backstretch, where, frankly, he should have been pulled up in the first place. It was crystal clear that he was not handling the going at all. It's a disgrace that Magnier and company have such careless disregard for the animal that they would put him in that precarious circumstance anyway by running a stone grass horse in that slop.
I had just breathed a sigh of relief that we'd gone through two days of positively dreadful conditions without an incident...until the last, of course.
In truth, there weren't any really good races at all. Maybe 3 horses trying to finish, but for the most part, it appeared as if the bulk of the fields were wrapped up early to avoid mishaps.
RIP GW. I'm so sorry you were so mismanaged. :mad:

[Dark Star]

That was a sad ending no doubt, i was surprised something like that didn't happen earlier considering the conditions, they mentioned that he was bred by the same people who bred Barbaro

As far as him being in the race, he deserved to be there and was in with a shot, Bertrando also made a comeback after going to the breeding shed and ran decently, it's not like he took years off, he didn't miss any racing time and ran good in his last 3 races, plus his bloodlines suggested he wouldn't have much trouble in the wet, Danzig-Alysheba

U could blame the trainer for not working him in the slop or footing him proper because it did look like he didn't like it out there, it's the trainer's job to know his horse, but u could make a stronger case for Better Talk Now, 8 year old running with a cast on his leg all year, he looked like he was very much opposed to running today, if something happened to him his trainer would've got lynched

I don't wanna bring up another issue over conspiracy but look at the facts...

The connections of GW profited from his death and put him down before the race result was even official, they collected a healthy insurance sum on a horse that was headed down in all likelihood and had no future as a breeder

[point given]

DARK STAR posted- " I don't wanna bring up another issue over conspiracy but look at the facts...

The connections of GW profited from his death and put him down before the race result was even official, they collected a healthy insurance sum on a horse that was headed down in all likelihood and had no future as a breeder "

So glad you decided to NOT bring it up . Leave it be. It was a miserable way to end the day. That and 2 convicts owning part of the classic winner, who sold him to avoid losing him in any settlement with their former Fen Fen clients who they stole millions from.

[Tom]

Seems like the only class in racing is the horses! :mad:

[JPinMaryland]

Just to complete the ESPN thing above: ESPN did in fact state that the horse was put down. Dr Bramalage was there to explain that the injury was basically an impossible one: loss of blood supply, dislocation, injury in dirt, etc. Once again Janine had the difficult task of covering that.

They also decided to push the envelope and ask Bramalage if the track condition had anything to do with it! Which struck me as an odd thing to ask, or maybe not. Bramalage said "no, they've done studies...etc"

What the hell does that mean? "They've done studies." As the comments above point out: there's statistical studies and there's observation of what's going on in a particular case. ESPN really pushing their luck with that one I'ma afraid.

[beertapper]

""He did well to stay up," said an obviously emotional Mick Kinane, who flew in to ride George Washington. "He was brave. He didn't go down. He stayed up on it. He saved me.""

this horse was class, that's for sure.. RIP

Seems like the only class in racing is the horses! :mad:

[mhrussell]

The connections are idiots should be punished. Suspensions, fines and I am so mad now even jail time is not out of the question.

That horse had NO business running in that race. GW was a top turf horse and ran horribly in last years Classic. And with the track conditions as they were today it just makes it even worse. F them!!!

Go for a piece of a $5M purse and to hell with what's best for the horse. :mad:

I hate this aspect of the game.
SOMETHING has to be done in response to this.

[PaceAdvantage]

Some of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves, redboarding his death like this....

"He ran horribly in last year's Classic"

Oh really? He ran sixth in a field of 13 and earned a 104 Beyer....and the comment line reads that he was bumped late.....ran horribly? I think not....

You know who ran horribly in last year's Classic? Lawyer Ron...should he have been prevented from running this year? Based on mhrussel's criteria, I suppose so.....

Also, GW raced in three Grade 1s over in Europe this year, with two thirds and a fourth....hardly the stuff of a horse whose racing career is over.....

I really doubt Magnier and Tabor are hurting for cash so much that they are jumping for joy over whatever insurance money they may receive over this tragedy.

Think about it....

[PaceAdvantage]

What the hell does that mean? "They've done studies."Well, if you would have listened to what the doctor said in the brief time he had to say it, it means they have studied breakdowns, and the studies indicate (according to the Dr.) that breakdowns are distributed evenly over all types of surfaces. Slop or mud does not produce a higher percentage of breakdowns than does fast dirt....according to what Dr. Bramlage said on ESPN.

[DeanT]

Very sage words from the moderator, imo. Well said.

[dutzman]

Some of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves, redboarding his death like this....

"He ran horribly in last year's Classic"

Oh really? He ran sixth in a field of 13 and earned a 104 Beyer....and the comment line reads that he was bumped late.....ran horribly? I think not....

You know who ran horribly in last year's Classic? Lawyer Ron...should he have been prevented from running this year? Based on mhrussel's criteria, I suppose so.....

Also, GW raced in three Grade 1s over in Europe this year, with two thirds and a fourth....hardly the stuff of a horse whose racing career is over.....

I really doubt Magnier and Tabor are hurting for cash so much that they are jumping for joy over whatever insurance money they may receive over this tragedy.

Think about it....


AMEN!!!

[Grits]

There is a lot of conjecture in this thread--conjecture that has no basis, whatsoever, as PA has indicated.

Also, Dark Horse states that Better Talk Now has "run in a cast all year." He/she is totally incorrect. This was his first race first since July, and if watching Jeannine Edwards report, and listening, one would know that BTW has injured his front, in the past due to the fact that his rear hoof grabs his front rear. So for that reason, he WORKS in vet wrap, a padded foam wrap, and a neoprene wrap. THIS is not a cast.

Also, BTW has had gate hesitation many times. I don't think Graham Motion would put a sore, or an unfit horse, on a racecourse.

No one likes to see a horse go down--but Aidan O'Brien is the top trainer in Europe, and I imagine he not only knows his horses well, but he also knows how to shoe them properly also.

I believe several comments here are undeserved, and less educated.

[Dark Star]

First off it's Dark Star and i'm a man, and a damn big one

Now i don't care if Better Talk Now wore a cast for 2 months or 2 minutes, he's 8 years old with very fragile senior horse bones and really had no business in the race, he's run 10 Breeders Cup miles, treat him like the champ that he is

About GW and his connections i will say this and i'm not going to accuse anyone

Magnier and Tabor are 2 very fortunate men, everyone in the world will agree on that, i think Magnier is the prime minister of Ireland in his spare time and recognized as the world's most influencial horseman

They are both very well respected businessmen, and from a business perspective this was a lucky break for them, they rid themselves of dead weight in GW and cashed out what they could

That doesn't mean it was by design, but guys like that who have more money than most didn't get rich with bad luck or engaging in losing business propositions, and keeping GW around was never gonna be profitable for them

That's the difference between the elite rich and the rest of us, those guys manage to profit from tragedy and suffering, now u think about that

[Tee]

http://drf.com/news/article/89884.html

"According to Dr. C. Wayne McIlwraith, the on-call veterinarian for the American Association of Equine Practitioners, George Washington incurred an open fracture of the cannon bone in the right front fetlock joint and also fractured both sesamoids."

"It was a hopeless injury as far as repair is concerned," said McIlwraith. "Trainer Aidan O'Brien was on the racetrack with the horse and requested George Washington be euthanized."

"McIlwraith said he was uncertain whether the condition of the track had anything to do with the injury."

"There have been no comparative studies or work done regarding whether a sloppy track could have been a contributing factor in the injury," said McIlwraith. "All the other races today went off without incident. But at times when you have this type of sloppy surface the horses are running on the base by the end of the day, which is always a concern. It's also possible, since this horse has raced primarily on turf, that there could have been some minor in-coordination, and he might not have been landing as smoothly as a horse more experienced over the surface."

[socantra]

"He ran horribly in last year's Classic"

Oh really? He ran sixth in a field of 13 and earned a 104 Beyer....and the comment line reads that he was bumped late.....ran horribly? I think not....

You know who ran horribly in last year's Classic? Lawyer Ron...should he have been prevented from running this year? Based on mhrussel's criteria, I suppose so.....

Also, GW raced in three Grade 1s over in Europe this year, with two thirds and a fourth....hardly the stuff of a horse whose racing career is over.....



From Nick Mordin's analysis of the BC Classic on this board:

"GEORGE WASHINGTON
Ever since I watched George Washington get outpaced then stay on strongly in the Queen Anne Stakes I've been looking forward to betting him in the Breeders' Cup Classic. In that race and the Eclipse I got the strong impression I was watching a horse that is going to be ideally suited by a mile and a quarter on dirt now that he's matured. His latest run in the Prix du Moulin confirmed my belief.

If you took a top class ten furlong dirt horse and ran it in the Prix du Moulin it would run exactly the way George Washington did - getting left behind as the pace quickened then surging rather than accelerating towards the leaders late with the short choppy stride of a dirt runner.

George Washington clearly needs a searching early pace to be effective. That is the norm on dirt. I've watched all his races repeatedly this year and am convinced that he's every bit as good as he was last year. Only now he wants dirt and a mile and a quarter. He gets it here and I reckon he's going to
win this.

SUMMARY

I've been telling anyone who'd listen all season that George Washington would win the Breeders' Cup Classic. I'm still convinced and love the fact that American pundits don't seem to be taking him seriously for this race. That means he should start at very nice odds indeed on the US Tote.

Recommended bets
4 points win GEORGE WASHINGTON at US Pari-Mutuel odds."

I'm not saying that Mordin was correct, but those that claim that GW had absolutely no business in the race really need to take a deep breath and think a bit before showing their backside in public.

[highnote]

I'm not saying that Mordin was correct, but those that claim that GW had absolutely no business in the race really need to take a deep breath and think a bit before showing their backside in public.

I agree socantra -- and not just because I bet GW on Nick's advice.

He ran a 106 Beyer in last year's Breeders' Cup as a 3 year old. If he improves by 6-8 points, he's a major contender. 7 of his last 8 races were Grade or Group Ones. And as PA pointed out -- he beat Lawyer Ron in last year's BC by 9 lengths.

Not only that, half the field he was facing in this year's BC were younger horses. That was also to his advantage.

There are a lot of horses that can run on turf or dirt. I don't see the problem racing him in the BC Classic.

[Grits]

and i'm a man, and a damn big one
And your point on this one is?
I'm a woman, and a small one. (We've cleared all this up--not that it matters a tinker's damn.):lol:

Now i don't care if Better Talk Now wore a cast for 2 months or 2 minutes, he's 8 years old with very fragile senior horse bones and really had no business in the race, he's run 10 Breeders Cup miles, treat him like the champ that he is
Again, the horse was NOT outfitted with a cast.

Are you familiar with Evening Attire? Or Sir Bear? Or the great John's Call? . . . Matter of fact, Attire is entered today, mto, for the Knickerbocker in New York. He's also been appointed HIGH WEIGHT, weight that's in the trees, actually. He's nine years old and has won a few, to say the least. Still loves what he does, though I doubt his owners are too happy with such a weight assignment.

In mentioning Attire, note that he has more starts than BTN. Maybe,take the examples, the records, of both of these champions, BTN and EA, and be pleased that these horses have done so well, still on the track, instead of using an accusatory tone. Respect their trainers, and owners. Especially since I doubt you've set foot in the barn of either one, and are clearly not in a position to know about their care, or what goes into to keeping them healthy.

About GW and his connections i will say this and i'm not going to accuse anyone.
I think you took care of that one last night.

Magnier and Tabor are 2 very fortunate men, everyone in the world will agree on that, i think Magnier is the prime minister of Ireland in his spare time and recognized as the world's most influencial horseman

They are both very well respected businessmen, and from a business perspective this was a lucky break for them, they rid themselves of dead weight in GW and cashed out what they could

That doesn't mean it was by design, but guys like that who have more money than most didn't get rich with bad luck or engaging in losing business propositions, and keeping GW around was never gonna be profitable for them

That's the difference between the elite rich and the rest of us, those guys manage to profit from tragedy and suffering, now u think about that
No, I don't intend to think regarding any of this, once I finish this post--hopefully. Because again, I think your knowledge is limited.

Do I think they are fortunate? No, they are savvy. The term, Irish Mafia comes to mind. Familiar with that one? THIS is where their fondation came. Bookmaking.

Do I think they are exceedingly respected? No, not particularly. They've done a pretty decent job of buying respect though.

No, I tend to believe they're just "Big and Rich".

And anybody, today, that is such, can buy a seat in a political arena, even in Ireland. One left school at 15--and married up--as in Vincent O'Brien's daughter. He joined hands with a bookie--the biggest. The bookie lives in Monaco.

No, these guys make our "hedge funds" boys look like saints.

Still I don't think these men were wrong in entering their horse in the Classic, not anymore than I think they were wrong in entering their filly in the Belmont Stakes, against colts. And we both know all about that one.

This is it for me--regarding your observations and accusations. We simply disagree, and that's ok.

[jma]

First off it's Dark Star and i'm a man, and a damn big one

Now i don't care if Better Talk Now wore a cast for 2 months or 2 minutes, he's 8 years old with very fragile senior horse bones and really had no business in the race, he's run 10 Breeders Cup miles, treat him like the champ that he is

About GW and his connections i will say this and i'm not going to accuse anyone

Magnier and Tabor are 2 very fortunate men, everyone in the world will agree on that, i think Magnier is the prime minister of Ireland in his spare time and recognized as the world's most influencial horseman

They are both very well respected businessmen, and from a business perspective this was a lucky break for them, they rid themselves of dead weight in GW and cashed out what they could

That doesn't mean it was by design, but guys like that who have more money than most didn't get rich with bad luck or engaging in losing business propositions, and keeping GW around was never gonna be profitable for them

That's the difference between the elite rich and the rest of us, those guys manage to profit from tragedy and suffering, now u think about that

What I guess you're not grasping, or choosing not to, is how wealthy these men are. You're saying they "cashed out" over an event they had no possible way of forseeing or expecting---how is that evil? Also, the money they made is insignificant to their operation. Magnier is one of the richest men in Europe (not a prime minister or whatever you claimed, but whatever). Do you think they couldn't have afforded to feed George Washington for the next 25 years and keep him as a tourist attraction? It's like saying Bill Gates is lucky that his favorite Value Meal was on sale---that amount of money means nothing to them. They wanted the glory, went for it, and tragedy occurred.

With that said, I was there on the track apron. I had George Washington being euthanized 150 feet to my left and the Curlin winners' circle celebration 50 feet to my right. It definitely was a strange, downbeat ending to the day, and hushed the crowd. Seeing George Washington's broken leg was not something I need to see again, but if you are a horse racing fan, you know you will. So I don't condemn those who were bothered by it because I was, but it's ridiculous to look for conspiracy theories in everything that occurs.

[JPinMaryland]

Well, if you would have listened to what the doctor said in the brief time he had to say it, it means they have studied breakdowns, and the studies indicate (according to the Dr.) that breakdowns are distributed evenly over all types of surfaces. Slop or mud does not produce a higher percentage of breakdowns than does fast dirt....according to what Dr. Bramlage said on ESPN.

My pt. is that some statistical study does not carry much weight when you are dealing with an individual situation. As it was ponted out earlier in the thread, there were observers who noticed the horse did not look right.

Also Tee's article says that there have been no comparative studies and also indicates that there can be particular conditions at the end of the day, that might make any generalized conclusions meaningless.

So I did listen to what Bramalage said and I dont see how anyone can make a snap conclusion like the surface didnt matter without doing any research or observation on this particular situation. To say "they did a study" doesnt answer anything in an individual case. So screw ESPN and Bramalage. :ThmbDown:

[racko]

I noticed that the connections of Curlin did not acknowledge the demise of GW in their acceptance speeches, how rude.

[Grits]

I noticed that the connections of Curlin did not acknowledge the demise of GW in their acceptance speeches, how rude.

If your spouse was sitting in a county jail in Central Kentucky, for having lifted millions upon millions from a class action lawsuit that he represented-- this might have slipped your mind as well.:lol:

[racko]

I noticed that the connections of Curlin did not acknowledge the demise of GW in their acceptance speeches, how rude.

[ryesteve]

I noticed that the connections of Curlin did not acknowledge the demise of GW in their acceptance speeches, how rude.
I hope you're not going to continue to post this every 15 minutes...

Perhaps they didn't know? Not that you can put much emphasis on the lacking ESPN coverage, but I didn't realize what'd happened to GW until much later...

[DJofSD]

Now i don't care if Better Talk Now wore a cast for 2 months or 2 minutes, he's 8 years old with very fragile senior horse bones and really had no business in the race...

On the face of it, this is a completely rediculous statement.

Better Talk Now has raced three times this year and shows sufficent works to make me think he's fit. In other words, he's got enough bone density.

Fagile senior horse my ass.

[ghostyapper]

Well, if you would have listened to what the doctor said in the brief time he had to say it, it means they have studied breakdowns, and the studies indicate (according to the Dr.) that breakdowns are distributed evenly over all types of surfaces. Slop or mud does not produce a higher percentage of breakdowns than does fast dirt....according to what Dr. Bramlage said on ESPN.

But that was not the question. The question was whether the condition of the track had anything to do with THIS breakdown. No matter how many "studies" they've done the vet was completely clueless regarding the question. He should have just been honest and say that it was a possibility.

[point given]

On the face of it, this is a completely rediculous statement.

Better Talk Now has raced three times this year and shows sufficent works to make me think he's fit. In other words, he's got enough bone density.

Fagile senior horse my ass.

Sir - I take exception for my friend Better Talk Now, he is no " fagile senior horse ". A duel at dawn ! :lol:

[Marshall Bennett]

....and for the second year in a row in a Breeder's Cup race , its not until the race is well over with that we even hear of the break-down !! Last year it was Pine Island ... ya know , its like " Hey where's my horse .. what happened ? "

[cj]

....and for the second year in a row in a Breeder's Cup race , its not until the race is well over with that we even hear of the break-down !! Last year it was Pine Island ... ya know , its like " Hey where's my horse .. what happened ? "

He broke down right at the finish and it was mentioned pretty soon after on ESPN.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Dr. Bramlage was asked a very stupid question about the breakdown caused by the track and tried to answer based on his memory of some study.
It is easy to opine later on what he should have said. IMO he should have said "That is a stupid question because the necropsy is not done yet".
IMO the racing media is stupid for trying to demand answers of this type with immediacy and responses immediately (within minutes) after a fatality like that is not helpful.
The fact is that studies I have seen have not shown much difference based on the weather effect and breakdowns, but there has never been any sufficiant studies in the USA on breakdowns in the first place. There are enough variables just in this incident so that eventual conclusions as to what caused the breakdown would be suspect anyway. This because of the career of GW and difference in type of racing, and because my understanding is that the track condition may not have been steady all during the day.
IMO the new gathering of Thoroughbred injuries may not be very telling because the info may be kept secret from all but the individual vet and track; So I do not expect this kind on specualtion after a fatality to decrese.
All I know is, chances of George Washington dying from an injury like this would be much less if he were able to stay retired.

[Grits]

It was mentioned as CJ indicates, and they also showed the equine ambulance begin its move immediately, and came then back, wide angling to show four tarps surrounding the scene in order to protect the animal in crisis, and the fans on hand.

The announcers spoke of it--and ESPN did an excellent job. When the winners circle ceremony took place--it was shot close in, so that viewers would, again, not be subjected to a horrific situation.

Why are individuals finding fault still? Maybe we didn't all watch the same coverage......maybe I'm wrong.

[ghostyapper]

And how about the dopes at espn deciding to do a segment on jockey injuries, showing footage of some horrific spills in which the horses obviously had to be put down.

Very tasteful

[racko]

gee ryesteve i guess im not as smart as you

[Grits]

And how about the dopes at espn deciding to do a segment on jockey injuries, showing footage of some horrific spills in which the horses obviously had to be put down.

Very tasteful

They interviewed several jockeys; Mike Smith, in particular. All of whom spoke of the dangers they face each day in the profession.

Every piece of previous film they used, showed the horse getting up. Not a one remained on the track surface. Were they badly hurt, I don't know, ... you don't know either, I suspect. They got up. The jockeys, no they didn't; not each time.

Think of both--not only the horse, the human on their back too.

[highnote]

They interviewed several jockeys; Mike Smith, in particular. All of whom spoke of the dangers they face each day in the profession.

Every piece of previous film they used, showed the horse getting up. Not a one remained on the track surface. Were they badly hurt, I don't know, ... you don't know either, I suspect. They got up. The jockeys, no they didn't; not each time.

Think of both--not only the horse, the human on their back too.


It's even dangerous for the handlers. Take Jeff Lukas for example -- D. Wayne's son.

Exercise riders get killed on occasion.

I read recently of a young college woman who was kicked in the neck by a horse she was working with at the university. She died on the way to the hospital.

There is a lot of risk from working with horses. But the risks are far outweighed by the benefits.

[ghostyapper]

They interviewed several jockeys; Mike Smith, in particular. All of whom spoke of the dangers they face each day in the profession.

Every piece of previous film they used, showed the horse getting up. Not a one remained on the track surface. Were they badly hurt, I don't know, ... you don't know either, I suspect. They got up. The jockeys, no they didn't; not each time.

Think of both--not only the horse, the human on their back too.

Horses always try to get up no matter how hurt they are. It is pretty obvious that the clips showed horses who suffered catastrophic leg injuries and had to be put down. Terrible idea.

[DJofSD]

Sir - I take exception for my friend Better Talk Now, he is no " fagile senior horse ". A duel at dawn !

That's the point -- he is not fagile and while 8 years old is up there for most T'breds to be competitive racers on the flat, I don't consider him senior.

However, if we must dual, the gauntlet sits on the ground before you.

Who is you better, sir?

[Grits]

Horses always try to get up no matter how hurt they are. It is pretty obvious that the clips showed horses who suffered catastrophic leg injuries and had to be put down. Terrible idea.

We don't agree and again, that's ok.

I've seen horses go down managing nothing beyond slight movement of their head and neck. I've also seen them collapse from heat with no movement. I've seen them get up too, after being attended on track with cooling measures.

Spook Express didn't move a muscle when she took a bad step on soft turf, a few days after running 2nd on BC Day.

The flight instinct is there; but no, it is not always forthcoming, no matter how hurt they are.

[ghostyapper]

We don't agree and again, that's ok.

I've seen horses go down managing nothing beyond slight movement of their head and neck. I've also seen them collapse from heat with no movement. I've seen them get up too, after being attended on track with cooling measures.

Spook Express didn't move a muscle when she took a bad step on soft turf, a few days after running 2nd on BC Day.

The flight instinct is there; but no, it is not always forthcoming, no matter how hurt they are.

I thought it was pretty obvious those were fatal flaws but I'm not going to get hung up in an argument about that. The bottomline is it was poor taste to show that footage.

[highnote]

I've seen horses go down managing nothing beyond slight movement of their head and neck. I've also seen them collapse from heat with no movement. I've seen them get up too, after being attended on track with cooling measures.

Lewis and Clark describe one of their pack horses tumbling down a steep mountainside. They thought for sure it would have killed it. Yet it got up and walked away.

They also rode their horses 100 miles overnight to escape Indians.

Pretty amazing animals.

[Suff]

I noticed that the connections of Curlin did not acknowledge the demise of GW in their acceptance speeches, how rude.

That may have been a little tough considering Curlins owners are sitting in Prison. They're accused of wire fraud in a multi-million dollar phen-phen scam.

By all rights Curlin should not have been allowed to run. His ownership is in question as the Cunninhams lost a $64 million dollar civil suit, and as an asset Curlin should have been liquidated by now.

[Grits]

Lewis and Clark describe one of their pack horses tumbling down a steep mountainside. They thought for sure it would have killed it. Yet it got up and walked away.

They also rode their horses 100 miles overnight to escape Indians.

Pretty amazing animals.

Often, I believe animals, and children too--are far, far, more resilient than us adults.

The obvious difference may be in the fact that adults and animals--dig in their heels with unyielding stubborness and determination.

Whereas children, we are still modeling and if we talk to them gently, giving them confidence they can achieve wonderous things, before the aforementioned kicks in. ;)

[Grits]

That may have been a little tough considering Curlins owners are sitting in Prison. They're accused of wire fraud in a multi-million dollar phen-phen scam.

By all rights Curlin should not have been allowed to run. His ownership is in question as the Cunninhams lost a $64 million dollar civil suit, and as an asset Curlin should have been liquidated by now.

Mrs.Cunningham, yesterday though, was most gracious, while her husband sits, as I noted earlier in the thread in a Central Kentucky jail.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070503/SPORTS0801/705030444

[PaceAdvantage]

My pt. is that some statistical study does not carry much weight when you are dealing with an individual situation. As it was ponted out earlier in the thread, there were observers who noticed the horse did not look right.

Also Tee's article says that there have been no comparative studies and also indicates that there can be particular conditions at the end of the day, that might make any generalized conclusions meaningless.

So I did listen to what Bramalage said and I dont see how anyone can make a snap conclusion like the surface didnt matter without doing any research or observation on this particular situation. To say "they did a study" doesnt answer anything in an individual case. So screw ESPN and Bramalage. :ThmbDown:

I don't think Bramlage was saying with certainty that the surface had nothing to do with GW's demise. What he was doing was citing whatever he had running around in his head. Now we have a DRF article stating "There have been no comparative studies or work done regarding whether a sloppy track could have been a contributing factor in the injury".

I find this hard to believe, as we've all heard of studies done of breakdowns, so somebody must have some stats regarding breakdowns over fast, muddy, sloppy, etc...When Polytrack was being pimped all over, weren't there folks quoting breakdown studies?

With all that said, given Saturday's unique track conditions, I believe we were ALL holding our collective breaths, hoping something like this wouldn't happen. But if you are going to operate under the assumption that something like that WOULD happen, then you have no choice but to cancel racing whenever the track comes up other than fast.....but then again, lots of horses break down and die on fast tracks as well.....

Horses also die over Polytrack, as we saw a few weeks ago at Keeneland....

[PaceAdvantage]

But that was not the question. The question was whether the condition of the track had anything to do with THIS breakdown. No matter how many "studies" they've done the vet was completely clueless regarding the question. He should have just been honest and say that it was a possibility.I agree 100%. My reply was based entirely on Bramlage's words, not my own personal beliefs. Going into Saturday I knew things were going to be quite unique, to say the least, track-condition-wise.....racing days have been cancelled over less mess.....

[Dark Star]

And who are u supposed to be Grits

This is a handicapping forum for players, not a donkey riding forum for little girls, so u might wanna put a lid on your think i know it all Julie Krone worshipping ass

One thing has been proven here, and that is that some of u here, along with others in the industry, are complete savages who have nothing other than a slavedriver mentality, how do u support the idea of running Better Talk Now 4 straight years in the Turf after he already won it, there is no excuse for that and shows a complete lack of class on your part, i guess u just think it's cool to run your horses into the ground

Do yourselves a favor and learn proper horse management from winners with class like Frank Stronach, who treats his animals with complete respect, which is why they perform so well and win in the Breeders Cup year after year

And somebody here went putting words in my mouth, i never said Magnier and Tabor were evil, i said they were lucky, and they are, it's u guys who think running Better Talk Now 17 more times after winning the Breeders Cup, including shipping his poor ass to Japan who are evil, i bet after they do retire him(if he doesn't die on the track first)they will strap a cart to his ass and make him do chores on the farm

[Tom]

Better Talk Now.....

5 starts last year, 4 this year. That is a pretty light campaign - I would not call his owners savages over that.

He missed the BC Turf by a half length last year, won the Gr1 Manhattan this year. Still a competitive horse at this level. Why the hell not tun him? Nothing wrong with his bones.

[Pace Cap'n]

And who are u supposed to be Grits

This is a handicapping forum for players, not a donkey riding forum for little girls, so u might wanna put a lid on your think i know it all Julie Krone worshipping ass

I think it's funny that after 300+ replies to this thread some people still don't know what class, i guess if u have no class you wouldn't know what it is.

Post #338--www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=437627#post437627 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=437627#post437627)


Well, DS, you certainly showed us what class is--NOT.

[Greyfox]

Interesting.
People complain when young winners are retired to stud.
People complain when old winners still race.
People complain seems to be the common denominator.

[Dark Star]

Better Talk Now.....

5 starts last year, 4 this year. That is a pretty light campaign - I would not call his owners savages over that.

He missed the BC Turf by a half length last year, won the Gr1 Manhattan this year. Still a competitive horse at this level. Why the hell not tun him? Nothing wrong with his bones.

With all due respect i can't believe u said that

This guy has run from Toronto to New York with over 5000 lbs on his back, 35+ races going over 1 1/8 miles, 25+ Graded stakes at 15+ tracks, give me a break, you're rolling the dice with each run, i guess they wanna find out how much he can run until he drops dead

Pure quality horse originally from Kinghaven Farms in Ontario, producers of Play The King, among others

They won a Breeders Cup with him, what more do they want, they want another and another, more, more, bunch of filthy greedy bastards, after he got hammered by 10 lengths in the 2005 Breeders Cup, did they give him a rest and take care of him, no, they shipped his ass straight to Japan where he got destroyed finishing 12th

Anybody with an ounce of class would've retired this horse after his Breeders Cup win in 2004, they didn't even give him a rest after that, they shipped him straight to Hollywood for the Turf Cup where he pulled up

So what if he can still run good, Awesome Again could've run 20+ more races, what does that have to do with anything

These people get no respect, i dare them to run him just one more time

[Dark Star]

Well, DS, you certainly showed us what class is--NOT.

$2 moocher says what

Taking a break from your normal Stronach bashing routine ?

Ya buddy, u are all about class

[jma]

$2 moocher says what

Taking a break from your normal Stronach bashing routine ?

Ya buddy, u are all about class

This board is really increasing in quality lately...

Okay, you've established your routine---you worship Stronach and you think every horse should be retired after it wins a big race. Anyone who doesn't do that is greedy, heartless and evil (and I "put the words in your mouth" little man---you said they profited off tragedy, which is pretty evil). Got it. Now you don't have to post anymore.

[highnote]

Why wait until a horse wins its first big race to retire it? Why risk a breakdown at all by training horses to run?

Why are horses even bred for running? Wouldn't they all be better off if they were left to run wild and uninhibited as nature intended?

The whole business is kind of cruel to horses from the methods of conception right down to their training regimen right through to retirement.

At the breeding farms the mare is held in place with a snitch on her nose. If she starts acting up and doesn't want the stallion to cover her, the handlers will tighten the snitch so that the pain she feels in her nose will distract her from what's going on behind her.

Or they will raise one of her front legs in the air so she can't kick the stallion.

Not exactly natural selection.

Then when the babies are old enough they are taken away from the mother. This causes a lot of anxiety in the dam and the babies. What normal mother or child wouldn't be distressed?

Then the yearlings (or whatever age they are then) begin their training careers -- whether they like it or not. The ones that don't like it might be gelded. That's about as cruel as it gets.

So while the grooms and trainers may love their horses and cry when they die, there is not a racehorse in the world that would voluntarily train itself up to a race, walk to the starting gate, load, break when the gate opens and go into an all out drive to the wire. So what does the trainer do? He/she hires a jockey to sit on the horse's back and whip it down the lane. Is that not cruel?

So while thoroughbreds may be bred to run, this does not mean humans are required to run them. You can try to sugar coat the racing business all you want, but when you come right down to it, there are a lot of things about the sport that are cruel.

I think most of us accept all of this. But maybe we should take a moment and think about it a little more.

[Grits]

And who are u supposed to be Grits

This is a handicapping forum for players, not a donkey riding forum for little girls, so u might wanna put a lid on your think i know it all Julie Krone worshipping ass

And you're a big one of those.

Players.

Many here know a great deal about this sport having followed it for decades. With each additional post you type, it becomes more clear that you may not be one of the many. Even someone small like myself, who doesn't know it all--just some, can discern this because I figure anyone coming to a horseracing forum stating that Frank Stronach has done anything ....and I DO MEAN ANYTHING.... from buying, to closing, to razing, to rebuilding racetracks, to throwing in slot parlors for props, and finally to breeding; that can be termed as beneficial to anyone other than Stronach, himself--doesn't warrant my attention on this, or any other subject.

Enjoy posting.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Funny, that is the argument I made concerning Tabor's other runner, TGM!
Snitch- do they sell those for wives?LOL:!!

[JPinMaryland]

....there is not a racehorse in the world that would voluntarily train itself up to a race, walk to the starting gate, load, break when the gate opens and go into an all out drive to the wire.

You have conveniently forgotten Secretariat who would do three somesaults to warm up and then win a 12f in NTR before cleaning out the stalls himself.

[JPinMaryland]

Getting back to GW; and of course it was a shame to see him done in like that, he was one of the most noble and brilliant horses of all the ones running yesterday although not the same.

SOme observers noticed he seemed to be not running very well very early on, perhaps in the first turn. I know Trevor mentioned it at one pt. but cant recall if that was on the backstretch. Now according to Bramalage the injury was one of those multiple traumatic ones where first one bone goes then another then the dislocation. It's probably likely that the horse was ridden for a time on the broken sesamoid and it's also possible that the jock didnt realize that and simply was hoping for GW to level out or otherwise run better.

So even if it's only a possibility it's one reason why the surface may have played a role. Thats why I said that the individual case needs to be looked at irrespective of the survey...


That really sucked at the end like that, just like last year.

[highnote]

You have conveniently forgotten Secretariat who would do three somesaults to warm up and then win a 12f in NTR before cleaning out the stalls himself.

There is an exception to every rule.

[Indulto]

... So while the grooms and trainers may love their horses and cry when they die, there is not a racehorse in the world that would voluntarily train itself up to a race, walk to the starting gate, load, break when the gate opens and go into an all out drive to the wire.

... So while thoroughbreds may be bred to run, this does not mean humans are required to run them. You can try to sugar coat the racing business all you want, but when you come right down to it, there are a lot of things about the sport that are cruel.

I think most of us accept all of this. But maybe we should take a moment and think about it a little more.Well done. SJ.

There's another h-word for horseplayers articulating alleged animal abuse.

Ironically, if GW had won the race, his connections would not only have been awarded an Eclipse, but possibly Sportsman of the Year as well. Obviously, there's even more at risk in a horse race than life, limb, and Lira. ;)

[highnote]

SOme observers noticed he seemed to be not running very well very early on, perhaps in the first turn. I know Trevor mentioned it at one pt. but cant recall if that was on the backstretch.

I was watching GW the whole way... because he was my main bet of the day. I noticed the same thing and my first thought was that he wasn't handling the slop.

My second thought was that he was injured and that the jock knew he wasn't quite right so was just letting him gallop at his own pace without pushing him.

So when I read on PA that he broke down I wasn't surprised -- hugely disappointed, but not surprised.


So even if it's only a possibility it's one reason why the surface may have played a role. Thats why I said that the individual case needs to be looked at irrespective of the survey...

I agree.

[highnote]

Well done. SJ.

There's another h-word for horseplayers articulating alleged animal abuse.

What is an "h-word"?

Ironically, if GW had won the race, his connections would not only have been awarded an Eclipse, but possibly Sportsman of the Year as well. Obviously, there's even more at risk in a horse race than life, limb, and Lira. ;)

Good point. The horse doesn't give a shit about awards. As you imply, it's all about the people who race the horse and how they get to feel before, during and after the race.

By the way, I don't think Arcangues ever raced on dirt when he won his first Breeders' Cup. Guess who tipped him in his column because he figured Arcangue would like a firm surface -- none other than Nick Mordin.

Of course, it didn't hurt that Jerry Bailey got the mount.

[DJofSD]

What is an "h-word"?

The "h" word for a horse player that alleges abuse: hypocrit.

[highnote]

The "h" word for a horse player that alleges abuse: hypocrit.


That's me. I admit it. :(

It's an interesting (unfortunate?) dichotomy.

I spent many summer on my grandfather's farm and learned about livestock from the way he treated them. You didn't get attached to them.

I've heard D. Wayne Lukas make a statement about race horses that echoed my grandfather's sentiment. "You can't get too close to them."

You have to treat them like livestock if you're going to grow your business to the size of the stable he had.

It's kind of like chosing between being a vegetarian or a carnivore. I like steak, but I know a cow has to be slaughtered in the most brutal manner in order for me to eat steak.

I'd be a vegetarian if it was convenient to do so. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to do so. I have found it incredibly difficult. I've tried. I used to always pack my own food for work. Problem is, I had to eat constantly. Then everytime I got out my bag of carrots everyone at work wanted them. So I ended up having to pack food for 10 people or else be hungry until meal time. If you walk around hungry all day it's hard to be effective at work and it sure makes being a vegetarian painful. If something is painful then humans will avoid it.

My point is, I know I'm a hypocrit for betting on horse races. But at the same time I am awed at what horses can do.

[Indulto]

That's me. I admit it. :(

It's an interesting (unfortunate?) dichotomy.

I spent many summer on my grandfather's farm and learned about livestock from the way he treated them. You didn't get attached to them.

I've heard D. Wayne Lukas make a statement about race horses that echoed my grandfather's sentiment. "You can't get too close to them."

You have to treat them like livestock if you're going to grow your business to the size of the stable he had.

It's kind of like chosing between being a vegetarian or a carnivore. I like steak, but I know a cow has to be slaughtered in the most brutal manner in order for me to eat steak.

I'd be a vegetarian if it was convenient to do so. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to do so. I have found it incredibly difficult. I've tried. I used to always pack my own food for work. Problem is, I had to eat constantly. Then everytime I got out my bag of carrots everyone at work wanted them. So I ended up having to pack food for 10 people or else be hungry until meal time. If you walk around hungry all day it's hard to be effective at work and it sure makes being a vegetarian painful. If something is painful then humans will avoid it.

My point is, I know I'm a hypocrit for betting on horse races. But at the same time I am awed at what horses can do.SJ,
I was NOT suggesting that YOU are a hypocrite. Obviously you weren’t alleging abuse of GW, but appeared to be establishing the criteria for that credential for anyone supporting racing (especially IMO by placing a wager) and then complaining about the treatment and/or manipulation of horses either generally or specifically. If you still wish to assume the mantle, you’re on your own. :D

[highnote]

SJ,
I was NOT suggesting that YOU are a hypocrite. Obviously you weren’t alleging abuse of GW, but appeared to be establishing the criteria for that credential for anyone supporting racing (especially IMO by placing a wager) and then complaining about the treatment and/or manipulation of horses either generally or specifically. If you still wish to assume the mantle, you’re on your own. :D


In a fundamental way, GW was abused. The fact that he was trained to be a race horse when he had no say in the matter is abuse on a certain level. And on a certain level I'm a hypocrite for betting him.

A lot of dressage people think racing is barbaric. But when you think about it, even dressage is abuse. Do you really think horses like being trained to walk in a funny manner?

Except for Secretariat -- who trained himself as DJ pointed out ;) -- most other race horses probably would prefer standing in a field eating grass.

[PaceAdvantage]

And who are u supposed to be Grits

This is a handicapping forum for players, not a donkey riding forum for little girls, so u might wanna put a lid on your think i know it all Julie Krone worshipping ass

One thing has been proven here, and that is that some of u here, along with others in the industry, are complete savages who have nothing other than a slavedriver mentality, how do u support the idea of running Better Talk Now 4 straight years in the Turf after he already won it, there is no excuse for that and shows a complete lack of class on your part, i guess u just think it's cool to run your horses into the groundAnother thing that has been proven here is that you don't deserve the privilege of posting in this forum any longer....it's a good thing the connections of Tiznow didn't take to heart your dumb-ass mentality of retiring a horse after he wins a big one....(yeah, we better not run Better Talk Now 4 years in a row....that's just insanity!!! :rolleyes: )

[highnote]

Another thing that has been proven here is that you don't deserve the privilege of posting in this forum any longer....it's a good thing the connections of Tiznow didn't take to heart your dumb-ass mentality of retiring a horse after he wins a big one....(yeah, we better not run Better Talk Now 4 years in a row....that's just insanity!!! :rolleyes: )

Not to mention Da Hoss.

[russowen77]

MY two cents.

It is a buisness. One that requires a lot of people and horses to support. It is also one that I love.

I would also like to point out that the throughbreds would not be here except for racing. The idea of a throughbred running free on the parie is not one of reality. The breed was developed to run.

GW came back to raising because he had reported fertility problems.

I like seeing the older horses get to run. They love it. The idea that an 8 year old is getting abused is ludicruos. This is the one part of his life that he is absolutely being pampered.Groomed, massaged, pampered. They have all the hustle and bustle of the track to entertain them. Plus they get to race. That is what they were bred for and they love it. Who doesn't love doing something you are good at. If they don't love it they won't do it folks.

GW was known to be a handful. Doubtful he would ever make a good riding horse. What he proabally had waiting for him was getting cut and being a pasture horse somewhere. Coping with flys and bad weather dreaming of the glory days.

He was a damn fine racehorse who saved his jockeys health by staying up and died doing what he loved to do.

We have a fine industry imo. I really like the people in it for the most part. Tragedy does strike but it does everywhere. Ours just get on National TV.

We could go to Mule racing I guess. I doubt there would be any breakdowns and you would have time to see the start of a "race" and grab a beer to watch the finish.

The breakdown problem is being attacked at another end. Bloodhorse recently published reports on stallions based on things like starters per foal. It will be hard to get away from the obvious human need for speed.

[mhrussell]

Some of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves, redboarding his death like this....

"He ran horribly in last year's Classic"

Oh really? He ran sixth in a field of 13 and earned a 104 Beyer....and the comment line reads that he was bumped late.....ran horribly? I think not....

You know who ran horribly in last year's Classic? Lawyer Ron...should he have been prevented from running this year? Based on mhrussel's criteria, I suppose so.....

Also, GW raced in three Grade 1s over in Europe this year, with two thirds and a fourth....hardly the stuff of a horse whose racing career is over.....

I really doubt Magnier and Tabor are hurting for cash so much that they are jumping for joy over whatever insurance money they may receive over this tragedy.

Think about it....

Lawyer Ron has no proven, championship form established on the turf. GW's race in last years Classic was 'horrible' by comparison to his lifetime turf efforts.. by far.
My objection is based on the obvious choice of the connections to "go for the $" regardless of what's in the best interest of the horse.

I stand by what I said and indeed "thought about it".
As far as 'redboarding'.. that comment of yours was out of line. I sure as heck am not going to post a 'prediction' that this horse or that will break down in such and such a race. But that does not mean that I, and many others, were not concerned about it.. not only for GW specifically because of his situation but for all the other horses as well.. especially in the turf events.

[highnote]

Lawyer Ron has no proven, championship form established on the turf. GW's race in last years Classic was 'horrible' by comparison to his lifetime turf efforts.. by far.

GW ran 106 Beyer in last year's BC Classic (on dirt) as a 3 year old. As he matured, it wouldn't have been a big surprise to see him run a 114 Beyer on dirt.

Do you keep European speed figures for turf? If not, then how do you know his Classic effort last year was below his turf efforts?

I suggest you go back and read Nick Mordin's analysis of GW. Nick is an expert on Eurpean form.


My objection is based on the obvious choice of the connections to "go for the $" regardless of what's in the best interest of the horse.

That is true for any owner who enters any horse in any race -- regardless of the level. It's all about the money. See my earlier post in this thread for my opinion on that.

And as you said yourself -- you would not make a prediction that a horse would break down. Well, neither would the owners of GW. Who knows the ability of the GW better than the owners and grooms? Do you honestly think they would put him in the race if they thought his chances of breaking down were unreasonably high?

Any horse, in any race, on any given day can break down. Take Barbaro, for instance. It happens. Who could have predicted it?

[ceejay]

http://www.racingpost.co.uk/news/master.sd?psection=racingpost.co.uk&page=News&category=George%20Washington&story_id=936673

Dr McIlwraith, who has performed surgery on more than 10,000 horses, thought fatigue could have played a part.


"Typically, these injuries occur in the last part of the race," he said. "Horses are more fatigued so they have got less support to the joint. And that's when the injuries normally occur."

Dr McIlwraith pointed out that the predominantly turf-raced George Washington might have experienced greater physical stress by switching to dirt.

"He could have had trouble with being less coordinated on that, as he's used to racing on grass - those are possibilities," he added.

"We generally consider these fractures to start as associated with earlier damage, so they can sustain a small degree of damage and then it can escalate into a fracture.

"So it is quite possible, especially when you have a horse that's relatively inexperienced at that surface and racing on a different surface."

[DJofSD]

A lot of dressage people think racing is barbaric. But when you think about it, even dressage is abuse. Do you really think horses like being trained to walk in a funny manner?

All movements that are taught to dressage horses are natural movements. Any of them can be witnessed by observing horses in a natural state.

[mudnturf]

Just throwing in my two cents on two subjects.

George Washington - His trainer, the highly respected Aidan O'Brien said this horse was coming into this year's Breeder's Cup "fresher and better than he was last year". And his race in the B.C. last year was not all that bad. As PA said, he finished sixth of thirteen, beaten a total of seven lengths by Horse of the Year Invasor and Bernardini. It was his first race on dirt, hiis first race on a left handed track, and his first race longer than one mile. It was also his first and only time on Lasix which he would certainly benefit from this go round. In that race he was never far off the leaders, and when turning for home looking more like he was accelerating, not decelerating, he was squeezed and bumped.
Regarding his failure at stud earlier this year, rumor has it (I have no proof) that he was able to impregnate a few test mares rekindling the hopes of his connections that perhaps he wasn't done yet.
Throw in a five million dollar purse, and I'd say his owners had good reasons to "give it a go" in the Classic.

Older Horses - Yes, Better Talk Now is considered a senior citizen among our race horses today, especially among those of Stakes caliber. But is he really too old to compete?
Not if you have a look at the jumpers...here, but more so in the U.K.
The vast majority are geldings whose average age is around 9-10.
The average age of the last ten winners of the Grand National at Aintree is ten years old. I have seen a hurdler or a chaser run 2.5 miles on Saturday, and come right back on Monday to do it again. Their trainers say "they love what they do".

[highnote]

All movements that are taught to dressage horses are natural movements. Any of them can be witnessed by observing horses in a natural state.


That might be true, but they are still being taught. Do you really think they like being taught?

I shot a video with a highly respected dressage instructor. Believe me, the horses were not always cooperative.

And it is the trainer that benefits -- not the horse. The horse would prefer to stand in a field eating grass.

[ArlJim78]

last year George Washington came to the BC fresh off of a huge race at Ascot which I think got him the highest timeform number of the year, or one of the highest anyway, something like 132. He then ran in the Classic and finished a non threatening sixth, BEHIND such big guns as Giacomo and Brother Derek.

after coming out of retirement this year, he was winless in Europe at his distance and on his surface. he did have a couple of thirds in GR1 company and while not horrible efforts, certainly he wasn't near his peak form of last year.

His record in races 7 furlongs and shorter was 5, 4-0-1
his record in races 8 furlongs and greater was 8, 2-1-3
his only two attempts at 10f resulted in a third on turf and the sixth place finish on dirt.

off of this record I was one who questioned why they would bring this miler over here for another crack at a very tough 10 furlong dirt race. I know they say he was doing great and that they are top connections, it just seemed like a really optimistic placement if you ask me.

[highnote]

I can see why they brought him here.

Curlin, Street Sense, et al, ain't exactly in the same class as Invasor.

[PaceAdvantage]

last year George Washington came to the BC fresh off of a huge race at Ascot which I think got him the highest timeform number of the year, or one of the highest anyway, something like 132. He then ran in the Classic and finished a non threatening sixth, BEHIND such big guns as Giacomo and Brother Derek.Ahhh...but you fail to mention that three of the five horses who finished in front of him last year were none other than INVASOR, BERNARDINI & PREMIUM TAP, three very, very heavy hitters.

[DJofSD]

Do you really think they like being taught?

In a word, yes. But I would imagine what you've been exposed to are horses owned by people with more money than sense and an even larger portion of ego. They never are willing to let a horses natural limitations dictate when the training ends.

I shot a video with a highly respected dressage instructor. Believe me, the horses were not always cooperative.

Respected by whom? Has this person successfully trained a horse to Grand Prix Special?

Don't mistake the appearance of lack of cooperation with poor abilities of the rider and instructor.

[ArlJim78]

I can see why they brought him here.

Curlin, Street Sense, et al, ain't exactly in the same class as Invasor.

before the BC, I agree.
but even though sloppy track beyers are I guess always subject to inflation for the winner, Curlins 118 was Invasor-like.

I just don't see any races in George Washingtons past performance lines that indicated that he wanted a route of ground like 10 furlongs.

[robert99]

before the BC, I agree.
but even though sloppy track beyers are I guess always subject to inflation for the winner, Curlins 118 was Invasor-like.

I just don't see any races in George Washingtons past performance lines that indicated that he wanted a route of ground like 10 furlongs.

I agree on that.
GW was only at top performer at 8 furlongs and on wide open straightish turf tracks such as Newmarket and Ascot and that was as a 3yo - this year he has gone backwards. If he had improved this year and added stamina to his speed then had, with a good early position an outside chance on a tight dirt track - in the slop no chance.
O'Brien is regarded as a great horse trainer at the stables but the operation is incredibly poor at race planning, pace and tactics.

[onefast99]

Monmouths new dirt racing surface has claimed a lot of horses lives this year. I have been there to see at least 5 go down. Numerous babies have been hurt on this surface also. The clay bottom negates the draining effect. It may be time for a poly surface.

[alysheba88]

3 year old Curlin is certainly more than comparable to 3 year old Invasor. Anyone saying otherwise is deluding themselves.

Polytrack for Monmouth? Please. The cry from the never hold a horseman accountable.

[alysheba88]

Ahhh...but you fail to mention that three of the five horses who finished in front of him last year were none other than INVASOR, BERNARDINI & PREMIUM TAP, three very, very heavy hitters.

And you fail to mention his form this year was far inferior to last years.

Winning Colors once ran a bang up BC race in defeat.

Did that mean running her the next year when she was clearly overmatched was right? Her last race was humiliating- but at least she lived

[mudnturf]

[QUOTE=alysheba88]And you fail to mention his form this year was far inferior to last years.

I don't consider losing three G1 races by a total of 4 1/2 lengths to be "far inferior" to last year's form. His Racing Post ratings for those three races were 120,120,121+.
True, his Ascot effort last year was brilliant, earning him a Racing Post rating of 131. But, his four races prior to that were rated 117,115,127,113.
That all said, most important (to me anyway) were the words of Aidan O'Brien that he was coming here "better and fresher" than he was last year. I have always found him to be extremely up front with the press when discussing his horses.
Was he lying? Was he saying that because his owners wanted him to say that? I don't believe we'll ever know. I personally refuse to believe that to be the case. I think they all felt G.W. had a legitimate case to be here, and to run in the Classic.

[highnote]

Respected by whom? Has this person successfully trained a horse to Grand Prix Special?

Don't mistake the appearance of lack of cooperation with poor abilities of the rider and instructor.

Her name is Bettina Drummond

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu_LVOSdHHecAgwhXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5YWptMzZ 1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0Y4MjRfMTE3B GwDV1Mx/SIG=12p9aiivr/EXP=1193839445/**http%3a//cvm.msu.edu/DRESSAGE/events/Bettina%2520Drummond%2520Flyer.pdf

http://www.ialha.org/new/features/bdrummond2.htm

[alysheba88]

I am not saying anyone is "lying". I am saying blaming the track for his breakdown is nonsense

[highnote]

before the BC, I agree.
but even though sloppy track beyers are I guess always subject to inflation for the winner, Curlins 118 was Invasor-like.

I just don't see any races in George Washingtons past performance lines that indicated that he wanted a route of ground like 10 furlongs.


Nick Mordin is one of the best paddock/visual handicappers I know. If he says the horse would do well on dirt, then I believe him.

I'm sure you've been around enough to know that the past performances printed on paper don't tell whole story.

Here's what Nick wrote:

"GEORGE WASHINGTON
Ever since I watched George Washington get outpaced then stay on strongly in the Queen Anne Stakes I've been looking forward to betting him in the Breeders' Cup Classic. In that race and the Eclipse I got the strong impression I was watching a horse that is going to be ideally suited by a mile and a quarter on dirt now that he's matured. His latest run in the Prix du Moulin confirmed my belief.

If you took a top class ten furlong dirt horse and ran it in the Prix du Moulin it would run exactly the way George Washington did - getting left behind as the pace quickened then surging rather than accelerating towards the leaders late with the short choppy stride of a dirt runner.

George Washington clearly needs a searching early pace to be effective. That is the norm on dirt. I've watched all his races repeatedly this year and am convinced that he's every bit as good as he was last year. Only now he wants dirt and a mile and a quarter. He gets it here and I reckon he's going to win this."

[ArlJim78]

[QUOTE=alysheba88]And you fail to mention his form this year was far inferior to last years.

I don't consider losing three G1 races by a total of 4 1/2 lengths to be "far inferior" to last year's form. His Racing Post ratings for those three races were 120,120,121+.
True, his Ascot effort last year was brilliant, earning him a Racing Post rating of 131. But, his four races prior to that were rated 117,115,127,113.
That all said, most important (to me anyway) were the words of Aidan O'Brien that he was coming here "better and fresher" than he was last year. I have always found him to be extremely up front with the press when discussing his horses.
Was he lying? Was he saying that because his owners wanted him to say that? I don't believe we'll ever know. I personally refuse to believe that to be the case. I think they all felt G.W. had a legitimate case to be here, and to run in the Classic.
no he wasn't lying, but what is he going to say? the point is whether or not he felt the horse was better and fresher than last year his performances didn't reflect it. in four races he wasn't able to crack through to the peak levels he was at last year. and that is important because 120's in turf miles are not going to get the job done in the BC classic. I don't know why they attempted it. To me it looked like a miscalculation. The margins are often not telling in those races either. often much the best is only a length or two.

[ArlJim78]

Nick Mordin is one of the best paddock/visual handicappers I know. If he says the horse would do well on dirt, then I believe him.

I'm sure you've been around enough to know that the past performances printed on paper don't tell whole story.

Here's what Nick wrote:

"GEORGE WASHINGTON
Ever since I watched George Washington get outpaced then stay on strongly in the Queen Anne Stakes I've been looking forward to betting him in the Breeders' Cup Classic. In that race and the Eclipse I got the strong impression I was watching a horse that is going to be ideally suited by a mile and a quarter on dirt now that he's matured. His latest run in the Prix du Moulin confirmed my belief.

If you took a top class ten furlong dirt horse and ran it in the Prix du Moulin it would run exactly the way George Washington did - getting left behind as the pace quickened then surging rather than accelerating towards the leaders late with the short choppy stride of a dirt runner.

George Washington clearly needs a searching early pace to be effective. That is the norm on dirt. I've watched all his races repeatedly this year and am convinced that he's every bit as good as he was last year. Only now he wants dirt and a mile and a quarter. He gets it here and I reckon he's going to win this."
This is one persons opinion, I don't know him, maybe he is the best at what he does however that doesn't mean he is correct 100% of the time. Frankly I am suspect of this type of claim that by merely watching a mile turf race in Europe he can conclude that the horse now wants dirt and is likely to win a top flight 10 furlong dirt race in the US when he hadn't even won a race this year, just a couple of thirds. It doesn't appear that he even took into account any of the domestic opponents. What type of handicapping is that?
I simply disagree with anyone who thinks this horse had a real chance of winning this race.

[highnote]

This is one persons opinion, I don't know him, maybe he is the best at what he does however that doesn't mean he is correct 100% of the time. Frankly I am suspect of this type of claim that by merely watching a mile turf race in Europe he can conclude that the horse now wants dirt and is likely to win a top flight 10 furlong dirt race in the US when he hadn't even won a race this year, just a couple of thirds. It doesn't appear that he even took into account any of the domestic opponents. What type of handicapping is that?
I simply disagree with anyone who thinks this horse had a real chance of winning this race.


Do you want me to post the rest of his analysis of the BC Classic so that you can see what account he took of the domestic opponents? Or maybe you can just search on PA and find the entire post of Nick's analysis of the entire 2 day BC card?

You're right that it is just one person's opinion. But that is what makes a horse race!

[Tom]

Mark Cramer was very high on GW as well.

[highnote]

Mark Cramer was very high on GW as well.

Me too, based on his printed past performances. I saw none of his races.

So that makes at least 3 people who liked him.

His odds were only about 10-1, so there must have been a lot of people who liked him. I was hoping he'd be 30-1.

[Humph]

[QUOTE=alysheba88]And you fail to mention his form this year was far inferior to last years.



Just because George Washington didn't win in ' 07, I don't buy into this argument that he deteriorated this season, and it is my firm belief that GW was pretty much the same horse this year as he was last year.

The two bits of form he was generally praised for last season came in the 2000 Guineas at Newmarket and the QEII at Ascot. In the first of the aforementioned races he was visually impressive, but I 've always asked myself what did he actually beat. The second was 12 furlong horse who was running over the wrong distance ; the third is way off top class ; and the vast majority of the rest of the field have turned out to be 6 furlong sprinters or horses who had no right contesting Gr1 races. At Ascot - the second event mentioned above - the race had no depth and GW's victims were by no means a vintage group.

At the end of last year, the official assessor gave 'George' a handicap rating of 129,which is the mark of a better-than-average Gr1 horse . I always thought that that mark was a little too high, on account of what he actually achieved, and that officialdum - and the racing public in general across the water -got a little carried away with the visually impressive manner of his victories without properly taking into account the substance of his successes.

George Washington went on to prove this year that he was roughly the same horse as Ramonti - a very good horse but no superstar - who will , imho, be given a handicap mark of around 124 at the end of this season, which is roughly what I'd have given GW last season.

It is also worth noting GW's speed figures - as quoted by the Racing Post's Topspeed collator . There isn't one that mirrors his lofty handicap mark.

RIP George.

[46zilzal]

How many VERY GOOD turfers have tried the classic and not translated turf form to dirt? The majority of them. Why is this any surprise since the same thing happens here all the time?

It is a given that most animals (save the immortals like John Henry) cannot flip a switch that says 'dirt today, turf off," or vice versa.

[ArlJim78]

Do you want me to post the rest of his analysis of the BC Classic so that you can see what account he took of the domestic opponents? Or maybe you can just search on PA and find the entire post of Nick's analysis of the entire 2 day BC card?

You're right that it is just one person's opinion. But that is what makes a horse race!
no thanks, i'll look it up later when I have some time.

yes, there are plenty of ways of viewing the same event, that's one thing that makes this stuff so interesting.

[46zilzal]

How can one RATIONALLY evaluate a horse based upon a single dirt line? He chased a very fast pace in that one putting him almost a complete odds with the typical running style on the turf and failed. That MIGHT make one believe dirt was NOT his surface.

[highnote]

How can one RATIONALLY evaluate a horse based upon a single dirt line? He chased a very fast pace in that one putting him almost a complete odds with the typical running style on the turf and failed. That MIGHT make one believe dirt was NOT his surface.


Using that logic, should we believe that Concern's surface should have been Turf? Of course not. He would have been killed on turf. Why? Because the slow early pace of turf favors a horse with a turn of foot -- a horse with quick acceleration who can also stay a distance.

While on a dirt, a plodder like Concern can benefit from a pace collapse. Same with GW.

Nick Mordin's point is exactly what you're saying. If GW gets the expected strong pace in the Classic it will set up perfectly for his running style.

Also, almost everytime a top class turf horse switches to dirt it has to be assumed he has some chance.

I handicap a lot of pick-6's at Santa Anita. I see good turf horses win dirt races all the time. Deauville in France has a lot of turf horses switching to dirt. They win all the time. Turf horses who do well at San Isidro in Argentina regularly switch to dirt at Palermo or San Isidro and do well.

The same thing can be seen in England and Germany, too.

Wasn't it Balto Star who made a successful transition?

It is much more common for horses to run well on both Turf and Dirt then many people seem to realize.

[46zilzal]

Balto went the other way and did it by way of surprise: NO one wants the lead on the green, he got it and held on often. That one didn't change style at all.

Concern, like Cefis, Editor's Note, Strke the Gold only won when the rest quit. You can have a horse like that all day and HOPE that the pace falls apart, by my guest. There is an old gray one running in New York like this today and his name escapes me......Evening Attire.

[alysheba88]

Anyone who bet GW at 10-1 should find another hobby :)

[highnote]

Balto went the other way and did it by way of surprise: NO one wants the lead on the green, he got it and held on often.

Same with Buck's Boy -- got the lead early and won the BC Turf Classic at Churchill.


Concern, like Cefis, Editor's Note, Strke the Gold only won when the rest quit. You can have a horse like that all day and HOPE that the pace falls apart, by my guest.

I think I would usually pass on those types. As you know those are low percentage plays.

However, in the case of Concern, I made an exception. I was lucky enough to be at the Breeders' Cup the year Concern won the Classic. I watched Bailey on all his mounts for two days. He would hold back his horses and then make one big run at the top of the long Churchill stretch. It looked like he was practicing the timing of his move for his race in the Classic aboard Concern. I thought it might have been unfair to the owner's of the other horses he was riding. He kept coming up short because he wasn't getting the pace scenario in those races that he would get in the Classic.

So jockey's don't always do the right thing in all the races. On the other hand, one could argue that that is the way you have to ride at Churchill if you want to win -- think Pat "Wait All" Day.

In any event, I cashed on Concern, but only at 3-1. Thinking back, 3-1 on a deep closer who needs the pace to collapse did not justify the risk --- but I was young and foolish. :D

Buck's Boy was a better bet -- lone speed.

[highnote]

Anyone who bet GW at 10-1 should find another hobby :)


Anyone who didn't bet GW at 10-1 doesn't understand the concept of value. :p :D

[alysheba88]

On the contrary, value players were all over Curlin at 9-2 and Hard Spun at 8-1.

GW should have been double his odds at least.

[46zilzal]

In any event, I cashed on Concern, but only at 3-1. Thinking back, 3-1 on a deep closer who needs the pace to collapse did not justify the risk --- but I was young and foolish.

Buck's Boy was a better bet -- lone speed.
As Dr. William Quirin corrected notes in Winning at the Races, closers have three distinct problems:
1) the horse has nothing to do with the pace and is a passive partner to it. Whatever the horse does, it will not alter the pace.
2) the rider must access the pace correctly and move at EXACTLY the correct time, which is still an educated guess.
3) there can be no traffic problems or he is not going to get there.

[highnote]

As Dr. William Quirin corrected notes in Winning at the Races, closers have three distinct problems:
1) the horse has nothing to do with the pace and is a passive partner to it. Whatever the horse does, it will not alter the pace.
2) the rider must access the pace correctly and move at EXACTLY the correct time, which is still an educated guess.
3) there can be no traffic problems or he is not going to get there.


I think #2 is what made Bailey one of the great jockeys. Like that saying goes, "The more I practice, the luckier I get." I watched Bailey practice on every mount for 2 days. There was some luck, but it was also practice that got him to the winner's circle on Concern.

[46zilzal]

I think #2 is what made Bailey one of the great jockeys. Like that saying goes, "The more I practice, the luckier I get." I watched Bailey practice on every mount for 2 days. There was some luck, but it was also practice that got him to the winner's circle on Concern.
The better ones do that.

After Arcagnes won he was asked what he did. His response? "I didn't try to impose MY will on the horse. I just let him run."

[highnote]

On the contrary, value players were all over Curlin at 9-2 and Hard Spun at 8-1.

GW should have been double his odds at least.


If GW was the best horse in the race, as I believed he was, then any payoff over $2.00 was value. 10-1 was a bargain. 20-1 would have been outstanding.

I'm not taking anything away from Curlin. He proved that he was the second best horse in the race. That's still pretty damn good.

[46zilzal]

I couldn't find anything DIRT WISE to make GW a wager. The off going made that even less a bet.

[racefinder2]

Question to Tom
Where do I (did you)find Mark Cramers opinions on the BC?
I have always liked his take on racing in general, thanks.

I was sickened by the breakdown of GW, all I want to say about it.

Concern-didnt he win at 7-1 or so>?
I liked him too, what a move he had at the longer trips, on the tracks
he could find his stride...

[alysheba88]

If GW was the best horse in the race, as I believed he was, then any payoff over $2.00 was value. 10-1 was a bargain. 20-1 would have been outstanding.

I'm not taking anything away from Curlin. He proved that he was the second best horse in the race. That's still pretty damn good.

If you think any payoff over $2 is value then simply you are not a value player but a "picking winners" player. Because a value player does not think like that.

[highnote]

The better ones do that.

After Arcagnes won he was asked what he did. His response? "I didn't try to impose MY will on the horse. I just let him run."


What was Andre Fabre thinking by entering a Turf horse with no dirt form into one of the toughest Dirt races in the world?

Did I mention that Nick Mordin tipped Arcangue? Nick said his style was suited to dirt because when he ran on turf he looked like a horse who needed a firmer surface. Kind of like GW.

I have to laugh every time I think of Arcangue. I bet every Andre Fabre horse on the card that day -- except Arcangue. You want to know why? Because Arcangue was number #11 or #12 or #13 -- can't remember which. But because his number was so high, he was on a page of the program all by himself. I was betting at Bridgeport, CT OTB that day. I didn't see him!!!! He was the only one of Fabre's horses to win that day.

I'm still kicking myself in the ass for missing him. At the time, I would have only had a few dollars on him, so no great loss monetarily. However, I would have had eternal bragging rights. :bang: :D I

[46zilzal]

Fellow in front of us that day had lost every way imaginable and was down to his last few dollars. His wife wanted to be this long priced French horse because of his connections and he tried to talk her out of it. They went 10 across and were very pleased.

[highnote]

If you think any payoff over $2 is value then simply you are not a value player but a "picking winners" player. Because a value player does not think like that.


Actually, anything over $2.10 would be value when you're betting a sure thing. You have to factor in that there is a 5% chance of some random event occuring that could stop him from winning -- like breaking down.


Then again, you have to factor in a rebate, so you can lower that back down to closer to $2.00 again.

[highnote]

Question to Tom
Where do I (did you)find Mark Cramers opinions on the BC?
I have always liked his take on racing in general, thanks.

I was sickened by the breakdown of GW, all I want to say about it.

Concern-didnt he win at 7-1 or so>?
I liked him too, what a move he had at the longer trips, on the tracks
he could find his stride...


Concern paid 3-1.

[highnote]

I couldn't find anything DIRT WISE to make GW a wager. The off going made that even less a bet.


GW was a 3 year old last year. His '06 BC race had a Beyer 106. He had every right to improve to 114 as a 4 year old. Nick Mordin says he has the action of a dirt runner. Andre Fabre entered a Turf runner in the BC Classic and won.

There were lots of reasons to like GW. 10-1 was about as low a price as I'd want to take on him. I was hoping for 20s. At 10-1 he was only a small win bet. At 20-1 I would have made a much bigger win bet.

[tholl]

Concern paid 3-1.

Paid $17.00 (7.5/1)

[Semipro]

First let me say it was a terrible tragedy but will someone please make a valid case for GW to win this race.Know guy from Monroe,La. who's opinion I respect alot(spends alot of time filling out IRS form)said he really liked George and was going to play him heavy therefore I looked long and hard at PPs read upside down and sideways but still he was my first cull.Value this value that but there's no value in a horse that has no chance to win.I'm not alone in my thinking out of 19 cappers on page 24 of daily racing 1 third by Dan Illman.

[tholl]

Actually, anything over $2.10 would be value when you're betting a sure thing. You have to factor in that there is a 5% chance of some random event occuring that could stop him from winning -- like breaking down.


Then again, you have to factor in a rebate, so you can lower that back down to closer to $2.00 again.

So you are saying that you would have bet him at 1/5 ??

[alysheba88]

Actually, anything over $2.10 would be value when you're betting a sure thing. You have to factor in that there is a 5% chance of some random event occuring that could stop him from winning -- like breaking down.


Then again, you have to factor in a rebate, so you can lower that back down to closer to $2.00 again.

Utter nonsense. Thats the picking winners mentality.

By the way did you even look at what the expected trips for Hard Spun and Curlin would be in your pre race analysis. Or were they irrelevant

[mudnturf]

Anyone who bet GW at 10-1 should find another hobby :)


Anyone who redboards, and criticizes at the same time, should find another forum.

[alysheba88]

Anyone who redboards, and criticizes at the same time, should find another forum.

I could post you a link to a thread at another forum where I made my prediction before the race if you are serious about the redboarding thing, lol. Dont see where I was redboarding here

Seriously, when someone says GW was "value at any price" I am not allowed to refute that thinking?

Was I little rougher than I could have been. Sure. Even willing to apologize for that. But not for the point itself. Hard to see how someone can say GW was value at any price and call themself a value handicapper.

Connections send their horse into a race where clearly not comfortable with the surface, fans bet down the horse, ignoring the quality of horses running and I am the bad guy when the horse dies?

[mudnturf]

[ Dont see where I was redboarding here


Forgot to include that little smiley face on my post.
Sorry about that!

My part of this George Washington discussion is over.
I've been writing ten times more than I normally do, here and elsewhere.
Bad weekend for me. My friend's horse was euthanised on track on Sunday.
Tough game!!!

[ghostyapper]

MSNBC had a horrific picture of the horse right after the injury. They wisely removed it within the last hour. A part of me wanted to post it here to put the whole situation into perspective for those still hung up on arguing the horses pre race odds and whether he was good enough

An animal lost his life for the sport. Can we try and have some dignity?

[njcurveball]

Can we try and have some dignity?

Spot on call! Many horses go off at 99-1 or higher and make it around the track safely.

Also, many times the horse breaking down is well liked (Barbaro, Go For Wand, Charismatic).

Time to move on!

[ArlJim78]

MSNBC had a horrific picture of the horse right after the injury. They wisely removed it within the last hour. A part of me wanted to post it here to put the whole situation into perspective for those still hung up on arguing the horses pre race odds and whether he was good enough

An animal lost his life for the sport. Can we try and have some dignity?
isn't it possible to do both? to show respect and dignity, while at the same time debating his chances in the race. i think the discussion here has been respectful, and at the same time illuminating widely disparate views on how he was likely to perform.

[46zilzal]

EVERYTHING from breeding on said Blade Runner.

Energy distribution said Blade Runner.

Competed well only as a modified sprinter/miler never having won at 10 furlongs. Ran on right handed or straight courses in the last 6 of 7.

Grass shorter. Not a good bet on a sloppy dirt track vs the best dirt routers going

No wins or places in 2007. Trip notes say unruly at gate, rank, missed break, rank......so it goes,...... more negatives the deeper one looks.

[46zilzal]

To be honest, really honest, how many horses EVER have done as well on the turf as the dirt and vice versa? John Henry, Cougar II, Ibn Bey, Go and Go, Sakhee, Arcangues, Johanesberg and a few others...NOT too many and usually at the top.

[tholl]

I think there are more than you give credit for; without doing much research-- Almutawakel, Moon Ballad, Nayef, Electrocutionist, Dayjur, Arazi, Sheikh Albadou, Giant's Causeway, Swain, Jolypha, Singspeil and Dubai Millenium also all hit the board in grade/group one races on both turf and dirt.

[Indulto]

I could post you a link to a thread at another forum where I made my prediction before the race if you are serious about the redboarding thing, lol. Dont see where I was redboarding here

Seriously, when someone says GW was "value at any price" I am not allowed to refute that thinking?

Was I little rougher than I could have been. Sure. Even willing to apologize for that. But not for the point itself. Hard to see how someone can say GW was value at any price and call themself a value handicapper.

Connections send their horse into a race where clearly not comfortable with the surface, fans bet down the horse, ignoring the quality of horses running and I am the bad guy when the horse dies?A8,
There are no bad guys in this unfortunate circumstance.

How could anybody predict GW wouldn't be comfortable with the surface?

I ignored him other than in my ALL exotic slots, but based on his previous BC Classic participation, he wasn't a total toss for me.

GW's connections are no fools and have been extremely succesful at the game. The timing was as terrible as the luck, but there's nothing that justifies second-guessing like Barbaro's hasty re-loading in the Preakness horror show.

In both cases, the riders survived the tragedy intact, and that's something to be positive about. Did GW's rider have any pre-race qualms?

[alysheba88]

A8,
There are no bad guys in this unfortunate circumstance.

How could anybody predict GW wouldn't be comfortable with the surface?

I ignored him other than in my ALL exotic slots, but based on his previous BC Classic participation, he wasn't a total toss for me.

GW's connections are no fools and have been extremely succesful at the game. The timing was as terrible as the luck, but there's nothing that justifies second-guessing like Barbaro's hasty re-loading in the Preakness horror show.

In both cases, the riders survived the tragedy intact, and that's something to be positive about. Did GW's rider have any pre-race qualms?

Watch the replay and listen to what Trevor had to say about the horse right after the start

The only reason the horse was even running and brought out of retirement is because couldnt reproduce. Thats not my opinion, thats a fact.

[Indulto]

Watch the replay and listen to what Trevor had to say about the horse right after the start

The only reason the horse was even running and brought out of retirement is because couldnt reproduce. Thats not my opinion, thats a fact.I guess I missed the point. What is so nefarious about a reproductively-challenged, but otherwise fit horse running in an event in which he had previously shown promise? :confused:

[Zaf]

I was there and had the late DD multiple times. But for reasons PA , Swetyejohn, MudnTurf , Nick Mordin, Steve Haskin & others stated , I was concerned and hedged a $20 win bet on GW. He definately had a chance in the classic. I was very distraught after the race :(

Z

[highnote]

So you are saying that you would have bet him at 1/5 ??


No. That would be ridiculous. I am not saying I would have bet him at 1/5. I was busting Aly's balls.

What I also said was:

Actually, anything over $2.10 would be value when you're betting a sure thing. You have to factor in that there is a 5% chance of some random event occuring that could stop him from winning -- like breaking down.

Then again, you have to factor in a rebate, so you can lower that back down to closer to $2.00 again.

So if you have a sure thing then $2.10 is value.

Aly seems to know how a value handicapper thinks.

He wrote:

If you think any payoff over $2 is value then simply you are not a value player but a "picking winners" player. Because a value player does not think like that.

So Aly knows how a value handicapper should think? That's funny.

I guess he thinks that value handicappers should have been all over Curlin.

Well, what if you made Curlin 7-1. If you bet him at 9/2 then you're not a value handicapper.

He gets one race right and thinks he's a genius and everyone else is a moron. :D

My other point, was based on something Sartin said, but I didn't make it clearly. He said that after the race every winner was an overlay. If you can bet the winner after the race then 2.10 is a huge overlay. I'll make that bet all day long.

[highnote]

Paid $17.00 (7.5/1)


You're absolutely right.

Maybe I was thinking of Cherokee Run. Same year -- 1994.

[highnote]

MSNBC had a horrific picture of the horse right after the injury. They wisely removed it within the last hour. A part of me wanted to post it here to put the whole situation into perspective for those still hung up on arguing the horses pre race odds and whether he was good enough

An animal lost his life for the sport. Can we try and have some dignity?


I've already said earlier in this thread that this sport is fundamentally cruel to the horse and I admit I'm a hypocrite for betting on them.

We've discussed breakdowns ad infinitum on this forum. I absolutely do not see any lack of dignity or disrespect in any of the comments so far.

In fact, by discussing these issues we will hopefully better understand situations that give rise to breakdowns so that in the future we might actually prevent breakdowns.

[highnote]

Watch the replay and listen to what Trevor had to say about the horse right after the start

The only reason the horse was even running and brought out of retirement is because couldnt reproduce. Thats not my opinion, thats a fact.


Like Indulto, I don't get your point.

Geldings don't reproduce and they still race.

Da Hoss was given a 2 year break -- kind of like retirement. He came back and won the BC mile for a second time. I don't remember anyone criticizing Dickinson.

Of course, if Da Hoss breaks down Dickinson would have never heard the end of it.

[Kelso]

Monmouths new dirt racing surface has claimed a lot of horses lives this year. I have been there to see at least 5 go down. Numerous babies have been hurt on this surface also. The clay bottom negates the draining effect. It may be time for a poly surface.


A couple of lead-pony riders with whom I spoke over the summer felt the maintenance supervisor didn't have his act together. Fewer horses were put down, at least on-track from racing, in 2006.

[Kelso]

I watched Bailey practice on every mount for 2 days.


SJ,

How did Bailey do that? Are you writing of workouts, or perhaps visualizing upcoming races?

Thank you.

[highnote]

SJ,

How did Bailey do that? Are you writing of workouts, or perhaps visualizing upcoming races?

Thank you.

What I meant is that I focused my attention on how he rode his horses on all his mounts leading up to Breeders' Cup Classic.

Actually, here's the way it happened. The guys I went to the 1994 Breeders' Cup with and I knew we were going to play a big Pick 6 or Pick 7 ticket.

I knew that you always had to consider any mount of Bailey or Day.

I knew that Concern was a deep closer.

So the day before the BC (and this is 13 years ago -- so my memory may be a little foggy) I noticed that Bailey seemed to be waiting until the top of the stretch to make one big final move. Then on BC day he kept doing the same thing -- taking a hold of his mounts early and then waiting to make a big stretch run.

To my eye, he looked like he was practicing on his lessor mounts for his big ride aboard Concern in the Classic. I could be wrong, but that was how I interpreted his rides.

Sure enought, in the big dance, he timed his move perfectly and won the Classic.

If I ever see him hanging around Belmont I may just ask him about that. It would be interesting to hear his reply.

Maybe I'm way off. Maybe that's the way you have to ride at CD. They didn't call Pat Day "Pat Wait All Day" for nothing.

[Kelso]

noticed that Bailey seemed to be waiting until the top of the stretch to make one big final move. Then on BC day he kept doing the same thing -- taking a hold of his mounts early and then waiting to make a big stretch run.

To my eye, he looked like he was practicing on his lessor mounts for his big ride aboard Concern in the Classic.

<snip>

If I ever see him hanging around Belmont I may just ask him about that. It would be interesting to hear his reply.


Understood. Thanks very much.
(And if you do get to ask him about it, I hope you'll post his response.)

[Indulto]

http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41750 (http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41750)
Commentary: Bye George
By Esther Marr

… Dave Johnson, the emcee of the post-Breeders’ Cup breakfast, didn’t mention George’s fate when he remarked on what a “great Classic” it had been. Don’t get me wrong—Curlin was terrific. But to me, a race where a horse’s life was claimed can’t be called “great.”

I think we (again, I mean Americans) dropped the ball on this one. Just because George didn’t win our Kentucky Derby or our Classic, should he receive any less respect? We were hanging on every piece of news when it came to our beloved Derby winner Barbaro after his devastating injury.

… I was told how reverent Churchill Downs officials were at last year’s post-race breakfast toward Pine Island and Fleet Indian, who were euthanized and injured, respectively, during the 2006 … Breeders’ Cup Distaff …

But the same respect for George never came.The above editorial demonstrates the concept that “things are never so bad they can’t get worse.”

Ms. Marr’s maudlin monologue misinterprets the mass misery manufactured by the mud-stained massacre of Monmouth’s majesty as monumental minimization of a magnificent competitor’s misfortune. Moreover, her misguided mourning over Magnier’s misplaced miler, and manipulation of Barbaro’s tragic memory, misused an opportunity for meaningful commentary.

Portraying New Jersey personnel as Philistines compared to their Kentucky counterparts, IMO diverted responsibility from Breeders’ Cup planners for mistakes that truly marred the moment that should have been racing’s finest.

[depalma13]

I've already said earlier in this thread that this sport is fundamentally cruel to the horse and I admit I'm a hypocrite for betting on them.

We've discussed breakdowns ad infinitum on this forum. I absolutely do not see any lack of dignity or disrespect in any of the comments so far.

In fact, by discussing these issues we will hopefully better understand situations that give rise to breakdowns so that in the future we might actually prevent breakdowns.

Willingly inflicting pain that causes injury is the definition of cruelty. There is nothing that is done to a thoroughbred in it's life where the horse is inflicted with pain for the sole purpose of causing injury to the animal. So the sport is not fundamentaly cruel.

Now there are bad people who may be abusive to their animals and may cause harm for insurance money, but they are the exception.

These animals are treated better than most human beings on the planet.

[alysheba88]

No. That would be ridiculous. I am not saying I would have bet him at 1/5. I was busting Aly's balls.

What I also said was:



So if you have a sure thing then $2.10 is value.

Aly seems to know how a value handicapper thinks.

He wrote:



So Aly knows how a value handicapper should think? That's funny.

I guess he thinks that value handicappers should have been all over Curlin.

Well, what if you made Curlin 7-1. If you bet him at 9/2 then you're not a value handicapper.

He gets one race right and thinks he's a genius and everyone else is a moron. :D

My other point, was based on something Sartin said, but I didn't make it clearly. He said that after the race every winner was an overlay. If you can bet the winner after the race then 2.10 is a huge overlay. I'll make that bet all day long.


Would appreciate you not lying in the future about my posts. Okay?

I never said everyone should have been on Curlin, nor did i call anyone a moron for not betting him.

I said based on your comments (the anything over $2) that you are a picking winners player and not a value handicapper because a value handicapper does not think that way. Forget anything I have to say on the subject and read what others have written about value handicapping- Cramer- Fierro, etc.

Sartin was not a value handicapper- a Picking Winners handicapper.

[alysheba88]

I guess I missed the point. What is so nefarious about a reproductively-challenged, but otherwise fit horse running in an event in which he had previously shown promise? :confused:

No comment on the first part of my post? About not handling the track?

Where did I say anything was nefarious?

All I have said in this thread from the begining was it was shame considering he was "out" of the game and then got brought back in.

Just like a shame Izvestia (sp) broke down in his last race.

Also have said that any payoff over $2 is not value handicapping and that track surface was not to blame.

Also that GW's form did not appear as good this year as last year and didnt seem to like the surface.

Thats about it I think

[highnote]

Willingly inflicting pain that causes injury is the definition of cruelty. There is nothing that is done to a thoroughbred in it's life where the horse is inflicted with pain for the sole purpose of causing injury to the animal. So the sport is not fundamentaly cruel.

Now there are bad people who may be abusive to their animals and may cause harm for insurance money, but they are the exception.

These animals are treated better than most human beings on the planet.


When a jockey whips a horse with the intent to inflict pain to make it run faster what else can it be called but cruel? The jock can make the horse try to run faster than it wants to, to the point that it's lungs bleed.

Some jocks just wave the whip in front of the horses eyes to scare the horse to make it run faster. The message the horse is "supposed" to get is that if I don't run faster I'm going to get whipped. That is intentionally inflicting emotional pain.

So isn't it cruel for a jock to use a whip to intentionally inflict pain to make a horse run faster than it wants to?

[highnote]

Would appreciate you not lying in the future about my posts. Okay?

Well, I would appreciate it if you would take time to actually read and interpret my posts before you go calling me a liar. Then you would realize I do not lie about what you say. You might want to relax a bit, too.

I never said everyone should have been on Curlin, nor did i call anyone a moron for not betting him.

Nor did I say you said that.

You said "Because a value player does not think like that."

You implied that you know how value players think and that anyone who does not think like that is somehow intellectually challenged. Now read that carefully. I did not say you said it -- I say you implied it. You implied that I did not think like a value player and that only value players know how to bet. The implication is that other types of bettors are not as smart as you -- they're morons.

Please read it again. I did not say you said. I said you implied it. That's my interpretion of what you said. If you don't like the way people interpret what you say, then say it more clearly and concisely.

Then you said "value players were all over Curlin at 9-2."

So I said "I guess he thinks that value handicappers should have been all over Curlin".

Show me how that is lying. You said it. And you said you know how value players think. I rephrased and combined an earlier point of yours. The meaning is the same.

To summarize: You have said you know how value players think. And you've said value players were all over Curlin.

To which I replied, I guess he thinks value handicappers should have been all over Curlin.


Sartin was not a value handicapper- a Picking Winners handicapper.


That's just plain false.

[highnote]

And as a follow up...

I do not lie. I may unintentionally misquote or misunderstand or misinterpret. But I do not lie.

You should make sure you have your facts straight before calling someone a liar. That is a very serious accusation.

[alysheba88]

Here is what you said:

"My other point, was based on something Sartin said, but I didn't make it clearly. He said that after the race every winner was an overlay. If you can bet the winner after the race then 2.10 is a huge overlay. I'll make that bet all day long".


That is utter nonsense and NO value player thinks like that. That is a picking winners mentality. Go read Barry Meadow and Mark Cramer and look for that kind of "logic"

Not saying one is a despicable human being for using that logic, inferior and unworthy. I am saying there are not a value player. Because that is contrary to what a value player does and think. There is a belief factor. Its like saying a rabid communist believes in free markets. Its not. Its contradictory.

A value player never thinks in those terms. They think in terms of good bets. Not focusing on the result of any one race and not ever saying that because a horse won it was a "good bet". Again its against the very foundation of what value handicapping is based on.

[46zilzal]

Just like a shame Izvestia (sp) broke down in his last race.

I used to keep all the tapes from the old Budweiser Thoroughbred Digest. Izvestia ran in New England earlier in the summer and I wondered why he went off stride deep in the stretch. I went frame to frame and noticed that he was struck in the hind leg. He was then off for several months and heard he was heading for Gainesway for stud duty and the BloodHorse even had him listed as one of their stallions. Much to my surprise I heard they were going to run him one more time and it sounded foolish.

I was really dismayed after looking up that old tape and found that he broke THE SAME LEG that had been injured earlier in the summer. STUPID MOVE.

[alysheba88]

"He gets one race right and thinks he's a genius and everyone else is a moron"

That is a lie.

Now lets move on a back to the subject at hand. Value handicapping :)

I think its hard to have a debate on something when people dont even agree what the topic is. What is your definition of value handicapping? What is a value handicapper and what principles does a value handicapper have?

By the way I agree with you about the whip. I think they should ban it

[highnote]

Here is what you said:

"My other point, was based on something Sartin said, but I didn't make it clearly. He said that after the race every winner was an overlay. If you can bet the winner after the race then 2.10 is a huge overlay. I'll make that bet all day long".


You're not getting it. I didn't say you should bet on a $2.10 horse. I said, Sartin said that after the race every winner is an overlay.

Earlier I said that it's OK to bet on a $2.10 if it's a sure thing. And it's a sure thing if after the race, when you know the result, you can bet the winner.

Before the race no one can know which horse will win. But after the race the winner is an overlay. If I can bet after the race when I know the winner then I'll gladly take $2.10 on a sure thing. In fact, this concept is the same idea Kelly uses in his classic paper on optimal betting.



That is utter nonsense and NO value player thinks like that.

There you go again. You say, "NO value player thinks like that." That is an absurd statement. How can you possibly know that NO value players think like that.


That is a picking winners mentality.

It has nothing to do with picking winners. It has to do with betting after the race is over.



Not saying one is a despicable human being for using that logic, inferior and unworthy. I am saying there are not a value player.

We are definately not on the same page. I think that any bettor who bets when there is a positive expectation is a value player.

Please tell me your definition of a value player.




Because that is contrary to what a value player does and think. There is a belief factor. Its like saying a rabid communist believes in free markets. Its not. Its contradictory.

What is contrary to the way a value player does and think?

A value player never thinks in those terms.

You speak in a lot of absolutes. "NO player", "never thinks".

They think in terms of good bets. Not focusing on the result of any one race and not ever saying that because a horse won it was a "good bet". Again its against the very foundation of what value handicapping is based on.

And just what is the foundation of what value handicapping is based on?

[alysheba88]

"You're not getting it. I didn't say you should bet on a $2.10 horse. I said, Sartin said that after the race every winner is an overlay"

I am getting it, I am just disagreeing. I know that is what you are saying.

I am saying I dont agree with you or Sartin and again no value player thinks like that. I know you hate absolutes so how about no one who practices value betting thinks like that.

Its clear we disagree on the definition of value betting so not surprising that we would disagree on the rest.

Because its contradictory.

Again dont listen to me, go back to Meadow, Cramer and Fiero, read what they say on the subject. Not saying their word is gospel, just saying that is the traditional way value players approach things.

There is a whole completely different approach that others believe in which is the picking winners approach. That its just about picking winners and a winner is better than a loser and price doesnt matter.

[highnote]

"He gets one race right and thinks he's a genius and everyone else is a moron"

That is a lie.


That's not a lie. It's my interpretation of what you wrote. It may be not be what you meant. And maybe I misinterpreted what you wrote.

But I did not intentionally make a false statement. That would be lying.



Now lets move on a back to the subject at hand. Value handicapping :)

OK. But I'm still waiting to hear your definition of value player.

My definition of a value player is one who makes positive expectation bets.

What is your definition?

[northerndancer]

When a jockey whips a horse with the intent to inflict pain to make it run faster what else can it be called but cruel? The jock can make the horse try to run faster than it wants to, to the point that it's lungs bleed.

Some jocks just wave the whip in front of the horses eyes to scare the horse to make it run faster. The message the horse is "supposed" to get is that if I don't run faster I'm going to get whipped. That is intentionally inflicting emotional pain.

So isn't it cruel for a jock to use a whip to intentionally inflict pain to make a horse run faster than it wants to?

Are you a thoroughbred horse psychologist? What was the name of the last horse that gave you your information. Have you spoken to any specific jockeys that provided you first hand information as to whip use during a race.

Bleeding into the lungs happens with barrell, dressage, hunter jumpers and recreational horses. Therefore do not connect cause of bleeding with whip use.

The art of 'Flagging a horse' by a jock is mainly used on a horse that has already extended themselves and additional whipping would not produce any additional benefit. At this time the jock will resort to flagging the horse with the whip (if you watch this procedure is usually performed inside the 1/16th pole). Pay attention to the tail and ear action of the horse when the jockey uses the whip this will tell you alot about the horse and whip use.

I hope you do realize that every racing commission has systems in place that monitor whip usage by the jockeys. If a jock is suspected of a whip infraction they face disciplinary charges (can include fines & suspensions).

[alysheba88]

I will provide more info later, but yes positive expectations bet is a big part of it.


And again that philosophy is completly contradictory to a winner is a winner no matter what the price is thinking. Completely.

Because betting GW at 3-5 is not a positive expecation bet.

Value in the eye of the beholder I realize, but find it hard to believe that anyone seriously thought 3-5 on GW was a positive expecation bet. And that 9-2 on Curlin was a negative expectation bet.

Again understand my thoughts on a horses true odds will always be different from others. Neither is right or wrong. But again people who say and think any winner was a good bet and that proof of a good bet is having the winner is not a value player and cant be one. Because its contrary to the approach.

Value players do not look at the outcome of any one race to say whether they made a good bet or not.

[highnote]

Are you a thoroughbred horse psychologist?

It doesn't take a degree in horse psychology. Common sense should tell you that no animal likes a whipping.

Have you spoken to any specific jockeys that provided you first hand information as to whip use during a race.

That would be like talking to Biancone about cobra venom.

Bleeding into the lungs happens with barrell, dressage, hunter jumpers and recreational horses. Therefore do not connect cause of bleeding with whip use.

So are you saying whipping a horse to run faster does not contribute to bleeding in race horses?

The art of 'Flagging a horse' by a jock is mainly used on a horse that has already extended themselves and additional whipping would not produce any additional benefit.

If the horse is already extended then why employ the "art of Flagging".


I hope you do realize that every racing commission has systems in place that monitor whip usage by the jockeys. If a jock is suspected of a whip infraction they face disciplinary charges (can include fines & suspensions).

Yes. And Kentucky does have the strictest drug policies in racing.

Just because a system is in place does not mean it is an effective system.

How about the abolition of whips?

[northerndancer]

The whip is also used to keep a horse in its appropriate path. Therefore abolishment of the whip would now put the horse and rider at greater risk for leaving its path. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

You must also come from the same schoo that all riders are cheating. Your simplistic view point and lack of desire just to flippantly comment on the use of a whip without gathering more evidence is tatamount to taking a knife to a gun fight.

You demonstrate the lack of information in regard to flagging a horse. Just because the horse is extended does not mean flagging is performed to get the horse to extend further but to keep the horse mindful of what he should be doing and to stay the course.

Abolishment of the whip would create chaos on the track. I bet you do not scream when you cash a bet on a horse ridden by Jorge Chavez (Chop Chop).

Again your retort to the bleeding is another example of your lack of information. Your implication was that the whipping is a root cause of bleeding. That is simply not the case as environmental, pedigree, bedding, nutrition, lack of fitness are greater causes than whipping of a horse. If you are going to state a point please have facts to back it up not just opinion.

It is your mindset and non factual banter that cause the industry to continually suffer the negative stigmatism in the publics eye.

[highnote]

The whip is also used to keep a horse in its appropriate path. Therefore abolishment of the whip would now put the horse and rider at greater risk for leaving its path. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

It seems like you have not read the entire thread. I know that the whip has many uses and not all of them are necessarily cruel.

My argument was more of a philosophical one. Racing, in general, is an unnatural act for a horse. I know they are bred for racing and they can run fast. But they are not bred to train themselves how to race. Given a choice, they would rather stand in a field eating grass.




You must also come from the same schoo that all riders are cheating.

That's just silly.


Your simplistic view point and lack of desire just to flippantly comment on the use of a whip without gathering more evidence is tatamount to taking a knife to a gun fight.

How much evidence does it take to convince yourself that no animal likes to be whipped?



You demonstrate the lack of information in regard to flagging a horse. Just because the horse is extended does not mean flagging is performed to get the horse to extend further but to keep the horse mindful of what he should be doing and to stay the course.

You're the one who brought up flagging. You say, "to keep the horse mindful of what he should be doing..."

What you really mean is what a horse should be mindful of doing to please the owner, trainer and jockey.

What a horse should be doing is grazing in the wild, imho.


Abolishment of the whip would create chaos on the track.

That is correct. Perhaps that is why there should not be horse races in the first place.


I bet you do not scream when you cash a bet on a horse ridden by Jorge Chavez (Chop Chop).

You're absolutely right about that. I never scream when I win a bet. But I do love cashing bets on Chop Chop -- especially in the nightcap.

Again your retort to the bleeding is another example of your lack of information. Your implication was that the whipping is a root cause of bleeding.

My implication was that whipping can cause bleeding to occur because it can cause the horse to run faster than it wants to.



That is simply not the case as environmental, pedigree, bedding, nutrition, lack of fitness are greater causes than whipping of a horse.

Just because I did not state every reason does not mean I do not know some of the reasons. I'm sure I don't know all the reasons -- I'm not a vet, a trainer or a researcher. Just as I'm sure you haven't listed all the reasons.

If you are going to state a point please have facts to back it up not just opinion.

The day I stop stating my opinion will be the day I die. Stating opinions and getting feedback is one of the ways we can get to the truth.

It is your mindset and non factual banter that cause the industry to continually suffer the negative stigmatism in the publics eye.

I don't think anything I said is non-factual. All I said is that whipping can contribute to bleeding. Do you disagree that whipping a horse never contributes to bleeding?
--------------------------------------------------

The thing is, racing is not going to stop. I know that. You know that. The use of the whip is not going to stop. I know that. You know that.

We overlook all these negative aspects of the sport and try to forget that they exist. We overlook them because there are economic issues involved. Horse races are staged because it generates income for lots of people.

We are at the point, and have been for some time, where racing is an important revenue generator. So the economic gains of racing causes us to look the other way and whitewash the negative aspects of the sport.

I'm not saying using the whips must be banned tomorrow. As you say, it would cause chaos putting the riders and horses in danger. If the riders and horses are in danger that would cause economic loss. Races are here to stay. So no point in putting jocks and horses at risk.

The point is, the horse is an unwilling victim in all of this. But they are so vital to economy that any change is going to come slowly.

That said, I have been at the races in NY when the announcer informs everyone over the PA system that such and such rider will not be carrying a whip. I have seen those horses then go on to win the race.

It can be done. And that's a fact, Jack -- or whatever your name is.

[PaceAdvantage]

Now lets move on a back to the subject at hand. Value handicapping :)Actually, the subject at hand is/was George Washington....

[highnote]

Originally Posted by alysheba88
Now lets move on a back to the subject at hand. Value handicapping

Actually, the subject at hand is/was George Washington....


Thanks, PA. That was classic. :D