Arizona Offshore

[betovernetcapper]

I've been toying with TUP's betting the last couple of days and this morning I looked at a couple of off-shores and guess what-two major off-shores are carrying TUP. Now I know they all say they don't co-mingle, but they have to lay off bets somewhere.
Anyway it just doesn't seem right that people in Arizona can't bet, yet off-shores are taking bets on TUP. On Tuesday morning, I'm making a request of the two major off-shores to stop booking bets on TUP until the Arizona law is repealed.

[cj]

I don't see why any offshore book would care if AZ residents can bet onshore. The high takeout rates make this a great track for the offshore books to carry.

[rrbauer]

I looked at a couple of off-shores and guess what-two major off-shores are carrying TUP. Now I know they all say they don't co-mingle, but they have to lay off bets somewhere.

Why do they "have to lay off"? If bookmaking was legal in this country I would be into it in a heartbeat! Look at the margins: TUP 20%+ for WPS and 25%+ (the "+" is the breakage) for exotics and you just don't book the exotics than can ruin you; and, you put either bet limits or payout limits on the others. The whole deal in making book is balance and doing so over time. Look at Vegas making money hand over fist with 10% margins in football. Look at Pinnacle a multi $billion company making tons while giving 7% rebates on horses and charging less-than-dime lines for football.

I doubt that the offshore outfits taking TUP even do $1K a day in handle there. It's a 2nd-rate track with a 2nd-rate product in a state that's evidently being run by people with 2nd-rate mentalities.

Bet a horse, go to jail. Where's Stephen King when we need him!!

[MakinItHappen]

It's a 2nd-rate track with a 2nd-rate product in a state that's evidently being run by people with 2nd-rate mentalities.


Boy, ain't that the truth! Well said Rich! :lol:

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, what is wrong with these people?!?

And they are doing this based upon the angle that Youbet and the other large ADW's are going to sue them? Do these ADW's really care that much about AZ business? Could this type of battle be cost justifiable for the ADW's? Maybe, but don't the ADW's have bigger fish to fry?

I do feel sorry for the players in AZ, but for the tracks that supported this law, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! You've made your bed, now lay in it, you fools!

Whew! I feel better now that I got that off my chest!

Best of Luck to Everyone Today!

MakinItHappen

[betovernetcapper]

I don't see why any offshore book would care if AZ residents can bet onshore. The high takeout rates make this a great track for the offshore books to carry.

I don't think they'd give a damn about it on Tuesday 10-9. I do think that they might care if requests were also made with the Justice Department and Homeland Security on Tuesday 10/16.

[cj]

I would think betting offshore hurts TuP. I don't think there is a lot of laying off of that money going on, as rrbauer noted. Id much rather people, if they must bet TuP, do it offshore than with an ADW in this case.

[jillybeans]

When these nationwide indictments hit and the Feds close the door on these parasitic off shore tax dodging scandulous off shore operators and rogue track operators like Churchill Downs this whole industry will begin to take a change for the better. Lets send Bob Evans, Scott daruty, and Chief Architect Kirk Brooks packing...and hopefully to a regulated environment for a few years.

[bigmack]

When these nationwide indictments hit and the Feds close the door
That's this week right?

[Rook]

I don't think they'd give a damn about it on Tuesday 10-9. I do think that they might care if requests were also made with the Justice Department and Homeland Security on Tuesday 10/16.

Richard, I've been a big fan of everything you have done but please don't direct your anger and energy at the offshores. From a Canadian horseplayer's perspective, other than PTC, they are the only rebaters who will take our business and therefore are our only friends. Keep the heat on those who truly deserve our contempt: WEG, TrackNet, YouBet and the tracks that won't sell their signal to PTC.

[Zman179]

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, what is wrong with these people...I do feel sorry for the players in AZ, but for the tracks that supported this law, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! You've made your bed, now lay in it, you fools!

Sorry, but I cannot see your point. :confused:

If the owner of Turf Paradise makes zero dollars off an at-home horseplayer, and gets the law repealed in order to get that business brought on-track again, how is that cutting your nose off despite your face? Even if only 33% of the Arizona horseplayers resume coming back to Turf Paradise, doesn't that mean that he's getting 1/3rd of the business back that he had originally lost? And in regards to at-home horseplayers betting on the Turf Paradise/Yavapai signal, they'll only need to retain 1 out of 5 of those players at either TuP/Yav or at an OTB in order to break even on the at-home business that was lost. That seems to me like an easily attainable goal.

Sounds to me like a winning situation for Arizona racetracks.

[rrbauer]

Richard, I've been a big fan of everything you have done but please don't direct your anger and energy at the offshores. From a Canadian horseplayer's perspective, other than PTC, they are the only rebaters who will take our business and therefore are our only friends. Keep the heat on those who truly deserve our contempt: WEG, TrackNet, YouBet and the tracks that won't sell their signal to PTC.


Huh?

I'm pissing on high-takeout venues and purveyors of breakage; and, in this instance, at the state of Arizona for their stupidity and disregard of horseplayers. I don't give a rat's ass about offsite anything! Pro or Con. None of my posts suggest otherwise. If Pinnacle opens up to U.S. residents again, I'm first in line!! And, BTW, it is not necessarily other ADW's that are preventing signals from going to PTC.

[chickenhead]

he was talking to the other Richard

[betovernetcapper]

Sorry, but I cannot see your point. :confused:

If the owner of Turf Paradise makes zero dollars off an at-home horseplayer, and gets the law repealed in order to get that business brought on-track again, how is that cutting your nose off despite your face? Even if only 33% of the Arizona horseplayers resume coming back to Turf Paradise, doesn't that mean that he's getting 1/3rd of the business back that he had originally lost? And in regards to at-home horseplayers betting on the Turf Paradise/Yavapai signal, they'll only need to retain 1 out of 5 of those players at either TuP/Yav or at an OTB in order to break even on the at-home business that was lost. That seems to me like an easily attainable goal.

Sounds to me like a winning situation for Arizona racetracks.

TUP get a % of Internet bets that are placed on TUP. That is all they are entitled to.

I've always thought the notion that, if it weren't for the Internet, players would go back to the track seriously flawed. Every week I have a bowl of tom yum soup at a noodle shop about a block from my apartment. I like tom yum soup and it's convenient. If the local noodle shop closed, I would still like tom yum soup, but I'd eat it a lot less, maybe once a year instead of once a week.
Over the last three days I've bet around $700 on a little track called Zia. It's fun and convenient-just a click away. If I were forced to travel 20 miles to a track, my Zia bets , all my bets, would go to zero.

[MakinItHappen]

Sorry, but I cannot see your point. :confused:

If the owner of Turf Paradise makes zero dollars off an at-home horseplayer, and gets the law repealed in order to get that business brought on-track again, how is that cutting your nose off despite your face? Even if only 33% of the Arizona horseplayers resume coming back to Turf Paradise, doesn't that mean that he's getting 1/3rd of the business back that he had originally lost? And in regards to at-home horseplayers betting on the Turf Paradise/Yavapai signal, they'll only need to retain 1 out of 5 of those players at either TuP/Yav or at an OTB in order to break even on the at-home business that was lost. That seems to me like an easily attainable goal.

Sounds to me like a winning situation for Arizona racetracks.

My point was that the AZ tracks were not happy with x $'s under the pre-Sept 19th arrangement and by taking this action, in my opinion, they may very well end up with less than x $'s. Obviously, you feel differently and who knows what the ultimate result will be.

I guess an overriding factor for me is that I despise the way this situation is being handled by the tracks (and I am not an Arizona resident). I resent the way the Arizona horseplayer is being kicked around by the Arizona tracks. If I was a Arizona horseplayer there is no way in Hell I would be forced back to an AZ track or OTB under these circumstances. I would find another way to bet ponies or I would not bet ponies at all! And going forward I sure as HELL would never bet on an AZ track.

In a show of solidarity for our Arizona horseplaying breathren, I feel obligated to NEVER bet on a Arizona horsetrack again! Arizona tracks USE TO RECEIVE a host fee when I played their tracks. This is now gone.

The action taken by the Arizona tracks was very self-serving and showed a complete lack of respect for the Arizona horseplayer. Can they really get away with this? I think they have underestimated the amount of Goodwill that they have lost as a result of these actions and I sincerely hope they have underestimated the power of horseplayers.

Hope that splains it, Z'man and thanks for the assist, BONC!

Best of Luck Everyone!

MakinItHappen

[MIKE D]

Well I finally broke down,couldnt stand not betting,went to my local otb about a mile away from home.four or five people in attendance there.Most of the time split screens showed 2 tracks simultaniously.Odds displayed too small to read for my failing eyes.IT TOOK MANY MINS AFTER FINISH OF RACE TO GET FINAL RESULTS AND PAYOUTS.Not all races from tracks being featured were were available for play.Laurel started at race 4 and Bay meadows race 5.Oaktree race one took forever to get results and thinking back I dont remember seeing the race ran on any of the t.Vs.The monotone music was very distracting and you could not hear the race calls over it.I can only imagine what the weekends are like when the ball games are on.This was not by any stretch a good experience.I disliked it very much and refuse to go back.No matter what the circumstances bring here I will never ever return to a TUP sponsored OTB.I have enjoyed so many wonderful years of horseracing and betting.I never thought at 69 I would be deprived of such a wonderful hobby.Thanks a lot for everyones support for Az horse players with the ADW problem.Hope it can be fixed soon.But I realise the Morons that run Az dont care about the little guys.Wait there is a chance,They cant stop thousands of illegals from crossing the border every day,how in the hell are they gonna catch a $2.00 better on the net

[betovernetcapper]

Wait there is a chance,They cant stop thousands of illegals from crossing the border every day,how in the hell are they gonna catch a $2.00 better on the net

This reminds me of something I saw on a Dateline-60 Minutes type of show. There was this border town in which Mexicans could just walk across to an American town. A major industry in the American town was a little store that rented mail boxes. There were hundreds of people that lived in Mexico-had somehow gotten a US green card and then qualified for welfare. On the 1st of the month they just walked over and pick up their checks.


A hundred years ago most people never ventured more than a few miles from their birthplace. Today people have multiple phone numbers-email addresses-summer & winter homes. Some people even have time share homes in other states. Believe it or not there are time share properties in the state of Arizona so the state must be OK with the concept of people having multiple addresses. It wouldn't surprise me if some Arizona residents asked a close friend or relative in another state if they could get some mail there. ;)

[rrbauer]

he was talking to the other Richard

Oops! Sorry if I jumped into the wrong pool!!

:blush:

[GMB@BP]

Believe it or not there are time share properties in the state of Arizona so the state must be OK with the concept of people having multiple addresses. It wouldn't surprise me if some Arizona residents asked a close friend or relative in another state if they could get some mail there. ;)

What does this have to do with anything, House Bill 2694 clearly states that you are breaking the law based on where the bet "originates", not where you live.

[ALostTexan]

What does this have to do with anything, House Bill 2694 clearly states that you are breaking the law based on where the bet "originates", not where you live.

Very true. If you are a resident of China, in Arizona for business, and place a bet over the internet, you are in violation of the law, and in the same class as a sicko child molester. That is the way the law sees it now that 2694 is in effect.

Granted, there is next to no way that the transaction is going to be tracked, but that is how it is seen.

ALostTexan

[GMB@BP]

Very true. If you are a resident of China, in Arizona for business, and place a bet over the internet, you are in violation of the law, and in the same class as a sicko child molester. That is the way the law sees it now that 2694 is in effect.

Granted, there is next to no way that the transaction is going to be tracked, but that is how it is seen.

ALostTexan


you dont think the track is sophisticated enough to track the ip address and transaction location? that would surprise me.

[ALostTexan]

Damn, didn't even think about that. Guess they really did screw all bettors in this...

[betovernetcapper]

you dont think the track is sophisticated enough to track the ip address and transaction location? that would surprise me.

I think the state of Nevada is working on some type of Internet monitoring system, but I'm pretty sure this is beyond the scope of TUP and my guess it will be for the foreseeable future.

[MIKE D]

As far as tracking an IP address goes I am by no means a nerd or computer wizard,however it is my belief that an IP address will only show up at the facility taking the wager.If this were an offshore AWD why in the hell would they share that with any other entity?Anyone out there can confirm or have thoughts about this

[Pace Cap'n]

IP addresses are not the be-all and end-all of internet identification. There are a number of work-arounds. This is kind of a hot topic in the poker world.

For example, one can access a remote computer. And, some ISP's will show the same IP for any number of users on a single server. One can obtain a commercial internet account (I am told, don't understand it) that will provide hundreds of distinct IP addresses.

So, for legal purposes, it would be hard to base a case on an IP address

[Hosshead]

IP addresses are not the be-all and end-all of internet identification. There are a number of work-arounds. This is kind of a hot topic in the poker world.

For example, one can access a remote computer. And, some ISP's will show the same IP for any number of users on a single server. One can obtain a commercial internet account (I am told, don't understand it) that will provide hundreds of distinct IP addresses.

So, for legal purposes, it would be hard to base a case on an IP addressThere may be "work-arounds" BUT, I think a woman was just convicted, based largely on her IP address, (in a well publicized case) for downloading music.
If your real IP address is obtained, it can be used.

[betovernetcapper]

Even though the law seems wrong on every level I can think of and even

though a discreet person with an IQ slightly higher than a plant would run

virtually no risk of being caught, it's important to remember that this is a law

and laws must be obeyed.

[Zman179]

My point was that the AZ tracks were not happy with x $'s under the pre-Sept 19th arrangement and by taking this action, in my opinion, they may very well end up with less than x $'s. Obviously, you feel differently and who knows what the ultimate result will be.

I guess an overriding factor for me is that I despise the way this situation is being handled by the tracks (and I am not an Arizona resident). I resent the way the Arizona horseplayer is being kicked around by the Arizona tracks. If I was a Arizona horseplayer there is no way in Hell I would be forced back to an AZ track or OTB under these circumstances. I would find another way to bet ponies or I would not bet ponies at all! And going forward I sure as HELL would never bet on an AZ track.

In a show of solidarity for our Arizona horseplaying breathren, I feel obligated to NEVER bet on a Arizona horsetrack again! Arizona tracks USE TO RECEIVE a host fee when I played their tracks. This is now gone.

The action taken by the Arizona tracks was very self-serving and showed a complete lack of respect for the Arizona horseplayer. Can they really get away with this? I think they have underestimated the amount of Goodwill that they have lost as a result of these actions and I sincerely hope they have underestimated the power of horseplayers.

Hope that splains it, Z'man and thanks for the assist, BONC!

Best of Luck Everyone!

MakinItHappen

Don't get me wrong, I don't approve TuP's actions. However, looking strictly at the numbers, I believe that this new law, while totally anti-horseplayer in every sense of the word, will indeed increase business. The amount of players that will return to a track or an Arizona OTB should easily surpass any monies lost that were wagered on TuP/Yav via a third entity.

Personally, I do underestimate the power of horseplayers simply because we generally are not unified; I cannot underestimate something that is currently at zero. I've never heard even once of bettors as a whole coming together and boycotting the races for even one single day to protest how they are treated by track management. The PA procotts were admirable, but didn't prove that the vast majority of bettors were willing to try radically different tactics in order to improve amenities.

[betovernetcapper]

Friday TUP attracted 1169 guests and they bet $73168 with an average of $44 each or a profit of $8.80

These kinds of business plans work very well in Narnia, but don't do much in the real world.

[Zman179]

These kinds of business plans work very well in Narnia, but don't do much in the real world.

We're not talking about regular people here, we're talking about horseplayers. If horseracing were any other business in the real world, they wouldn't get even eleven people a day. There have been many threads on how bettors get pooped on but keep coming back for more.

BTW, how do you come up with a profit figure? That figure doesn't take into account monies earned on bettors playing simulcasts, admissions, valet parking, programs, and monies gained via concessions.

[betovernetcapper]

The $8.80 is the take out from $44 (44*.2) which is split between the track-the horseman and the state. I shouldn't have used the word profit.

[Kelso]

The amount of players that will return to a track or an Arizona OTB should easily surpass any monies lost that were wagered on TuP/Yav via a third entity.


All the more reason, of course, for horseplayers around the country to back up the Arizona players by increasing the pain at TUP/YAV. Our challenge is to make the state treasurer notice a sufficiently lower tax take from the tracks that he'll tell both management and lawmakers that this idea is al loser.




The PA procotts were admirable, but didn't prove that the vast majority of bettors were willing to try radically different tactics in order to improve amenities.


You're absolutely correct.

Procotts get nice publicity, but they don't do a damnd thing to change poor attitudes by idiots running tracks. Only lost business can do that ... and I think AZ is a sufficiently managable target, due to small size and minor-league status, to hurt with a boycott.

[betovernetcapper]

Today 2360 people visited and bet $85415 or an average of $36 each. The track's cut was some percentage of $7.20. I paid more than that for a slice of pizza today. This is just getting kind of sad.

[Zman179]

Today 2360 people visited and bet $85415 or an average of $36 each. The track's cut was some percentage of $7.20. I paid more than that for a slice of pizza today. This is just getting kind of sad.

I think it's quite obvious that the on-track crowd is more interested in the simulcasts (especially Santa Anita) than their own races.

[betovernetcapper]

I think it's quite obvious that the on-track crowd is more interested in the simulcasts (especially Santa Anita) than their own races.

We've heard this line all year. In this case the people putting on the show are in Santa Anita and Santa Anita would make more if these bets were being made with an ADW.
The more I look at this law, the more I think it's extortion.

[betovernetcapper]

So today 2568 people visited TUP and they bet $61,540 on TUP or an average of $24 per victim.

[ALostTexan]

Trust me, these issues will be brought up in the morning. If they keep on crapping on the bettors, and this is what they will get...

[Mil Mascaras]

Didn't New Mexico basically do the same thing a year or so ago?

[cj]

So today 2568 people visited TUP and they bet $61,540 on TUP or an average of $24 per victim.

That is just pathetic.

[Zman179]

I know. $24 a card, you'd think that TuP was located in Utah or something..

Ooooh yeah! I LOOOOVE that 4 horse in the next race! I might take the band off the bankroll and step up to the window with both fists and put $4 on him!