San Francisco loves the US Military (NOT!)

[PaceAdvantage]

Marines Denied Permission To Film Commercial

New York said "yes," but we said "no." Why were the U.S. Marines denied permission to film a recruiting commercial on the streets of San Francisco?

San Francisco is, once again, the center of a controversy over how city leaders treat the U.S. military. This time, it involves an elite group of Marines who wanted to film a recruitment commercial in San Francisco on the anniversary of 9/11.

The Marines we spoke with also make the point that the city allows street demonstrations, anti-war protests and other events which snarl traffic, such as Critical Mass. They still don't understand why the Marines got turned away.

The rest:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=i_team&id=5673526

[JustRalph]

read about this last week.............. apparently SanFran has its own army..........and don't ever anticipate needing protection in the future.........kind of shortsighted really.........considering they are on the coast

[OTM Al]

I thought before reading the article that it would have been more along the lines of the gays in the military debate. That reason I would buy, given San Fran's record on gay rights. The reasons given in the article seem pretty lame though.

[delayjf]

I believe the issue was the Marines wanting to run across the Golden State Bridge. Who owns the bridge??

[NoDayJob]

Don't knock San Francisco--- It's really a great city, sans all of the idiots and freaks who run the place. The only good supervisor, Ed Jew, has been suspended. The Chinese community needs to get active big time to reverse this injustice. :bang:

[skate]

hey look here!


after we train em in Philly, we rent them to San Fran.:confused:

things are getting too good.

dos this mean, i have to vote in order to laugh?:p

[delayjf]

According to an article I read - the refusal to allow the Marines to run across the bridge came from some official who I guess is in charge of the bridge.

I say the Feds should pull the funding on anything that would go to the bridge - if it is in fact Federal property - then they should thank the person in charge of the bridge for their service and offer admiration for the courage of her convictions - and promply fire her ass.

[Tom]

How about we let the marines take out the bridge!

[BlueShoe]

Is SanFrancisco part of the United States?Have always thought that it was and is part of the Soviet Union.For the 10% of their population that are not Party members life must be rather diffucult.

[NoDayJob]

Who owns the bridge??

Golden Gate Bridge Authority manages it... A private bond issue financed the bridge during the depression. Not sure if there's any Fed funding. Toll is now $5 per car. When I came to California in the '30s the toll was $0.25. So $5 is about right considering inflation.

[Tom]

I'd bitch about the quarter!

[Light]

I grew up in New York and now live in California,15 minutes from S.F. They're both blue states. I'd say S.F is more anti war. No surprise they dont want to accommodate the military. Good for them.

[toetoe]

I don't say the Marines deserve anything special because of war, WTC attacks, God Bless America, blah, blah, blah ... BUT ... BUT... jeez, give them the basic decent treatment you'd give any customer --- say, the Transgender Marxists League. :D

I'll take a wild guess and say Miss Coyote is the daughter of lefty firebrand/sellout (at the SAME TIME !) Peter Coyote.

[delayjf]

No surprise they dont want to accommodate the military. Good for them.

They live under the blanket of freedom the military provides and then spit on them for the manner in which they provide it. If only the military had the option to refuse to defend those with that "San Francisco mentality", every wise guy thug in this world would get a piece of their ass. Then where would they be? Hopefully they’d move to Canada – another country that relies on the US for it’s security.

[Tom]

All things considered, if they do not accomadate our military, they might end up accomadating someone else's at some point.

Sad that California accomodates illegals who are draining our resources and have turned Californina into a joke of a state. One the whole nation would be better off without.

But the all voluteer army, who are ready to give thier lives to protect thier rights are slighted. To say good for them is a slap in the face to those who serve. You are a disgrace.

[46zilzal]

When is denying permission to film the same as spitting on someone?

[delayjf]

BUT ... BUT... jeez, give them the basic decent treatment you'd give any customer
Exactly, I’ll bet they would shut the bridge down if NAMLBA wanted to conduct a snaking bridge long conga-line, reach around – they’d be all for it.

[toetoe]

delay,

Don't fall into that trap. If some were given the choice, they would opt OUT of that protection. It's not a choice. Each entity is stuck with the other. The important point is that a power-mad person of gender managed to publicly flex her boner, and we shouldn't dignify her with a hugely offended response. Let's just be slightly irritated. :ThmbDown:

[delayjf]

Don't fall into that trap. If some were given the choice, they would opt OUT of that protection

I wish, but in the end, your right, that's just a fantasy. Personally, I can't help but laugh at their arrogance. They actually believe that THEY are the reason for America's freedoms - that the world is simply paying homage to THEIR superiority. They need to wake up and smell the burning Twin Towers.

[Light]

There's too much war,death and sadness in the world allready. I cant be sympathetic for a commercial for more of the same .

[Tom]

When is denying permission to film the same as spitting on someone?

I never said it was.

Read slower.

[Tom]

Assumning the next terror attack is certaintly, I certainly hope SF is the target. At least our losses will be minimal.

[JustRalph]

I don't know, considering the Marines have an economic impact of over 5 Billion dollars on the California economy, you would think they would let the damn Marines shoot a commercial................what the hell is this country becoming?

[46zilzal]

I never said it was.

Read slower.
was not referring to you.

[Suff]

The Marines are not "The Marines". They are family/friends and non-active Marines. "The Silent Drill Platoon".

They Were issued a Permit to shoot on The Golden Gate Bridge for September 9th. The bridge was shut down, the film crew was present but the "Silent Drill Platoon" did not show up until Monday, where they asked for another permit to shut the Bridge the very next day.

The city gave Tight Productions a permit that allowed them to film the Marines on Sept. 9. "We had carte blanche on Sunday, but we didn't have the Marines," Donald Block, the executive producer at Tight, tells USA TODAY





"We were wanted a re-shoot Tuesday," Block says, adding that he's sure the police could have handled the traffic problems caused by the production crew. But that's only part of the equation. Because the director didn't choose the locations until a few days before they were scheduled to film, Block says the company didn't have time to get the required approvals from local residents who would have been inconvenienced during the filming.





"We didn't leave there feeling the least bit singled out," Block says. His crew shot generic streetscapes on Sunday, and then moved to a federal park where they filmed the men on Tuesday with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background.




And this from the silent Platoon itself.

"We are grateful for the opportunity to film a portion of the America's Marines commercial and documentary in the Bay Area," the Silent Drill Platoon says in a written statement. "Dozens of former Marines, parents and supporters attended the shoot and we appreciate their support."
http://usmcaccount.typepad.com/photos/san_francisco/index.html




When I think of what is wrong with America I only have to go into one thread at Pace Advantage. Thanks, you saved me the trouble of wading into any further ignorance. My wish for you guys is that sometime in your life you decide to stop being victims.

[toetoe]

The stewards have recommended:

1) Tom, lighten up.

2) Light, tommen up.

Any questions ? :)

[toetoe]

suff,

Thanks for the poop, which I take to be 99% accurate, at least. In light of these new developments, well ... never mind. :blush:

[Tom]

was not referring to you.

Oooops.
Guess I'd better read slower! :blush:

[Tom]

When I think of what is wrong with America I only have to go into one thread at Pace Advantage.

Break your mirror?

[Light]

2) Light, tommen up.


In my neck of the woods,we make Ramen with Tommen, YEE-HAW!

[JustRalph]

Suff, thanks for wading into the ignorant masses to insult us.

How do you account for the earlier stories that said nothing about the traffic problem? or this quote;

Mary Currie, Director of Public Affairs, apparently stated "not on my bridge are you going to put your Marines".

This story from Sept. 24 doesn't mention the missed day etc?

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=i_team&id=5673526

How about this point?

The Marines we spoke with also make the point that the city allows street demonstrations, anti-war protests and other events which snarl traffic, such as Critical Mass.

I think San Fran has made its points about the military lately. As pointed out in this snippet from the article........

"Captain Corrales and several other Marine veterans came to the Film Commission Monday afternoon. They see this as just the latest insult along with the city blocking the USS Iowa from docking here, banning the junior ROTC from high schools, and trying to ban the yearly Blue Angels air show."

[OTM Al]

You read that article carefully though, everyone interviewed is a second or third hand source except for one small snippet where the comissioner says something about traffic problems. Could be a case of making a mountain out of a mole hill......nah, US media would never do that.......

[delayjf]

The article JustRalph posted is the article I read: Regardless of which version is accurate, I stand behind my statements with regards to the lefts hatred of the military.

By the by, all members of the Silent Drill Team are active duty Marines.

[PaceAdvantage]

When is denying permission to film the same as spitting on someone?It was used as a figure of speech. A man of your education ought to be able to make these kinds of distinctions.

[PaceAdvantage]

The Marines are not "The Marines". They are family/friends and non-active Marines. "The Silent Drill Platoon". This is quite possibly the silliest sentence I've read in off-topic in weeks.

If they're filming a commercial for THE MARINES, then it's THE MARINES, no matter if they're using real marines, or 300 washed up actors.

[PaceAdvantage]

When I think of what is wrong with America I only have to go into one thread at Pace Advantage. Thanks, you saved me the trouble of wading into any further ignorance. My wish for you guys is that sometime in your life you decide to stop being victims.Why don't you go back to DailyKos and cast your vote for Ahmadinejad in that poll where they ask who would be a better U.S. President, Ahmadinejad or Bush.

For your information, THIS 31% IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH AMERICA:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/images/Poll.jpg

[toetoe]

PA,

You must admit, that's a hell of a choice. :D You're damning suff by association. Now CUT THAT OUT. :D

suff,

Bless you for pouring out your heart, even though you MUST know how imperious, supercilious even, it sounded. :)

[hcap]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/images/Poll.jpg

Actually you are looking at a photoshopped falsy.




This is the original. Gotta hand it to george, beat Alfred E hands down!

[46zilzal]

Actually you are looking at a photoshopped falsy.

This is the original. Gotta hand it to george, beat Alfred E hands down!
Even though genetically identical. They were switched at birth no doubt

[NoDayJob]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/images/Poll.jpg

Actually you are looking at a photoshopped falsy.




This is the original. Gotta hand it to george, beat Alfred E hands down!

Nobody knows who Al Newman is--- They think he's Paul Newman's brother or his son. P.S. he's old enough. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Actually you are looking at a photoshopped falsy.Are you kidding me? Are you whacked?

That poll was taken DIRECTLY from the DailyKos website, and I assure you, there is no Alfred E. in the poll.

Here is the link, oh bright one....go ahead and pump up Ahmadinejad's numbers...I know you will....now he's at 32%:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/23/224950/843

[hcap]

Are you kidding me? Are you whacked?

That poll was taken DIRECTLY from the DailyKos website, and I assure you, there is no Alfred E. in the poll.

Here is the link, oh bright one....go ahead and pump up Ahmadinejad's numbers...I know you will....now he's at 32%:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/23/224950/843

I don't own Photoshop. But occasionally I use Infotran
You can edit internal text of most image files.
Gee I thought I spelled Newman wrong

:lol: Lighten up Alfred E was a friend of mine growing up with Mad mag.

[Tom]

Here is the link, oh bright one....go ahead and pump up Ahmadinejad's numbers...I know you will....now he's at 32%:




And Congress is at 11% :lol::lol::lol:

[robert99]

There is a BBC World Service interview with a US Staff Sargeant who fought at Falluja, 2004. The reality and price exacted of what the military go through is grim.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/meta/tx/nb/interview_au_nb.ram

[Lefty]

When is denying permission to film the same as spitting on someone?
sillyzilly, it's a metaphor!

[Lefty]

There's too much war,death and sadness in the world allready. I cant be sympathetic for a commercial for more of the same .

It's hard to blve there's anyone in this nation as dense and sophomoric as you. But you write and there's the proof!

[Lefty]

I don't know, considering the Marines have an economic impact of over 5 Billion dollars on the California economy, you would think they would let the damn Marines shoot a commercial................what the hell is this country becoming?
If Light and a few others have their way...
A COMMUNIST NATION.

[russowen77]

I see not much has changed. I was spit on literally in the airport in 1970. Just back from Viet Nam. Welcome to America. We were low life baby killers. I am suprised they are giving the heros of today trouble.

[Lefty]

russowen77, thankyou for your service. If I EVER, EVER, see anyone spitting on a miltary person, said spitter will have to deal with me!

[russowen77]

Thanks lefty. However, as a general rule it is not wise for most civilians to attack active duty soldiers. It wasn't for the rather large gentleman who spit on me. Combat sharpens your reflexes like nothing else I know. Thanks again for the kind words.

[boxcar]

Marines Denied Permission To Film Commercial





The rest:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=i_team&id=5673526


The marines got turned away because the Lefty Whackos "forgot" that filmmaking is a form of free speech and that free speech is a protected right.


Boxcar

[Light]

Gee Box,I'm all broken up. The poor military industrial complex.Commercial denied. :(

Gee Lefty,you're right. Death Death,and more Death is the only solution. What was I thinking. :bang:

[Lefty]

light, you're not thinking. If you think our military exists just to kill for no good reason then you as well as that one idiot (forget his name)in S.F. who thinks we should abolish the military, have lost your faculties.
You are able to sit and write the tripe you write PRECISELY because the military, starting with the Revolutionary war, has kept this country free, and you as well as the rest of us, have reaped those benefits.

[Light]

Lefty

Its the abuses of the military that has tarnished the miltary. A tool used by greedy leaders resulting in needless deaths of innocents is not some "necessary evil" as you mindlessly have said. If you or one of your loved ones were one of the "necessary evils" victims, I really doubt you would be singing your star spangled banner.You would either be dead or devasted. Get real old man.

[Tom]

Bullshit.

[Lefty]

Tom, succinct and to the point and true.
light, you just have to get out ofyourdreamworld; your misguided perception that the enemy is the good guy and we're the bad guys. This war has given a whole lot of people a good shot at democracy. Why do you think these peoplewere better off with Saddam? Bush acted not only on worldwide intel but on the words of Clinton and his cabinet, almost all who gave speech after speech of how Saddam was a threat and must be dealt with.
Personally, i'm glad we have the military, I thank them, and we must keep a strong military or we won't be able to have these little debates.

[boxcar]

Gee Box,I'm all broken up.

Most of us have known this for some time now.

Boxcar

[delayjf]

Its the abuses of the military that has tarnished the miltary.
Nobody ever said the military was perfect in it's execution of its job. But neither are the Police, the court system, etc. Do you want to get rid of them as well?

The left finds the military / police repugnant and celebrate any single incident that the left can use to demonize the Military. I also find the left's attitude hypocritical as the same “victims” the left holds up as examples of US Military abuses are the same “victims” the left ignores while they suffer under tyrannical rule. It's easy for the left to castigate the military especially when they lack the fortitude to do anything about the larger crimes being perpetrated. The Left can take some solace in that the US AT LEAST prosecutes the abuses / crimes of our soldiers, police, and politicians.

But when is the left going to stand up and take responsibility for those killed by their own inaction. Good intentions never saved anyone. Maybe if that was you or your family being tortured, raped, and killed you might be more grateful.

[boxcar]

Bullshit.

Light gorges himself on it day in, day out.

Boxcar

[NoDayJob]

As imperfect as this republic of ours may be, it's still better than any other country on this planet. As a former guest of the North Koreans and the Chinese Communists, I can assure you our citizens won't be very happy should we become a totalitarian nation, whether it be socialist, communist or a dictatorship. "Salus Populi Suprema Est Lex" -Cicero

[russowen77]

As imperfect as this republic of ours may be, it's still better than any other country on this planet. As a former guest of the North Koreans and the Chinese Communists, I can assure you our citizens won't be very happy should we become a totalitarian nation, whether it be socialist, communist or a dictatorship. "Salus Populi Suprema Est Lex" -Cicero

My hat is off to you. Korea sucks when you are not being incarcirated imo. I do wish Americans would actually get a feel for what it is like. Once changed, loss of freedom, it is exceedingly difficult to get back.

It is what scares me so badly about the patriot act.

[NoDayJob]

Once changed, loss of freedom, it is exceedingly difficult to get back.

"We make war that we may live in peace" -Aristotle

[Light]

Nobody ever said the military was perfect in it's execution of its job.

Its one thing to make mistakes. Its another to lie and use the military intentionally for greed and imperialism and to gut a country out in the name of nobility. If this Iraq mission is so noble then why hasnt the Bush twins signed up? Why hasn't Bush told them to. Cause the jokes on you. You are the only idiots who believe the Bushshit.Bush doesnt believe his own lies. He mocked his own WMD scare in a video tape.He wouldnt have done that if he thought it was true and found himself to be wrong.

You live in a fantasy world where death doesnt happen to "real" American people. "Foreigners" are considered "lower" forms of life and expendable because you are unfamiliar with their cultures.The government siezes on your fear of unknown cultures to indoctronate you of who is good and who is bad according to their interests. It is only because you are on top of the chain of power in this world that you can do what you do. But there is no truth in it. Its a pack of lies that will die in time. The U.S. is getting its ass kicked in Iraq because it lives on such a low level of consciousness. If it had just one smidge of intelligence,all these lives would have been spared and the threats from our neighbors would be half of what it is today.

[delayjf]

Its another to lie and use the military intentionally for greed and imperialism and to gut a country out in the name of nobility.
Your hatred for the US has blinded you. President Bush’s justification for the war was right in line with other foreign Counties, and past administrations. You ignore that fact because it erodes your warped perception that President Bush orchestrated 9/11 to cash in on the Iraq’s oil. Yet through it all, no one has yet to come forward with one iota of proof of the great wealth that you claim he’s amassing.
If this Iraq mission is so noble then why hasnt the Bush twins signed up?
Are you kidding me?? You’re going to base the worthiness of our efforts in Iraq on whether or not the Bush twins enlist? How about Somalia, no oil profits there, was that mission a piece of shit because Chelsea stayed at home? I guess you can forget sending troops to Darfur, wouldn’t be noble, after all, the Bush twins didn’t sign up. If our mission in Iraq is such an affront to you, why haven’t you signed up with Al Qaeda? Would not that be a noble mission. I find you argument here idiotic.
You live in a fantasy world where death doesnt happen to "real" American people.
At first I didn’t know how to react to the above – but I think its safe to say you don’t consider the men and women in the military as “real” American people. I suppose you only bestow that distinction on those that think like you. “Real American people”, is that what you guys call yourselves these days?
"Foreigners" are considered "lower" forms of life and expendable because you are unfamiliar with their cultures.
WTF?? When and where did I ever say all foreigner where low lifes and deserved to die??
The government siezes on your fear of unknown cultures to indoctronate you of who is good and who is bad according to their interests.
Your right, that indoctrination is pretty mind bending stuff – those that bomb our cites – bad. Those that join our fight to vanquish those who bomb our cities - good. Is this the same Government that you now want to run our entire lives from cradle to grave?
It is only because you are on top of the chain of power in this world that you can do what you do. But there is no truth in it. Its a pack of lies that will die in time. The U.S. is getting its ass kicked in Iraq because it lives on such a low level of consciousness.
Now we’re getting to the meat and potatoes – like the rest of the world you resent our power and prestige. But at the same time you live in this country and enjoy the fruits of those who have sacrificed for you, how hypocritical of you – actually they didn’t die for you, you’re just lucky to be here. Getting our asses kicked?? You wish.
If it had just one smidge of intelligence,all these lives would have been spared and the threats from our neighbors would be half of what it is today.
You don’t fool me, you could care less about the Iraqi people. You were more that willing to sit by and do nothing and let Saddam kill them.

[Lefty]

light, your words are just incredible. If we hate foreigners so much why do we have troops trying to preserve their emerging democracy in Iraq? It's you who don't want them to have the same freedoms we enjoy. It's you who would have them still in the clutches of Saddam. It's you light, it's you.
And our military isn'tgetting their ass kicked in Iraq. They are, metaphorically getting their ass kicked here at home by liberals such as you who display nothing but hate for this country and sympathy for those that kill our troops and us if the troops didn't stand between.

[JustRalph]

delayjf...........perfect post. Right on target.......!!! :ThmbUp:

Light, I know that Americans are better than the rest of the world........results speak for themselves........... Keep on Keeping on in the religion of peace............

[Light]

Yet through it all, no one has yet to come forward with one iota of proof of the great wealth that you claim he’s amassing.

You cant put 1+2 together. Bush is an oil man. Cheney is an oil man. Condi is an oil woman. Bush's father likes to hang out with Saudi Shieks.Knock knock. Anybody home in between your ears?

Are you kidding me?? You’re going to base the worthiness of our efforts in Iraq on whether or not the Bush twins enlist?

No.That wasnt the point. The point is if the war is so important to America,how come he doesnt send his kids to war. How come 95% of Congress dont send their kids to war. You know why? Because when they say sacrifice,they mean YOUR kid's lives should be sacrificed,not theirs.

[WTF?? When and where did I ever say all foreigner where low lifes and deserved to die??

You didnt say it but you support the policy of Iraqi victims paying the price for our mistakes.

like the rest of the world you resent our power and prestige.

I dont resent power,I resent abuse of power.

But at the same time you live in this country and enjoy the fruits of those who have sacrificed for you, how hypocritical of you

Please dont kill in my name. You are defending nothing. You are condoning the deaths and ruination of thousands of people who never threatened you.

You don’t fofol me, you could care less about the Iraqi people. You were more that willing to sit by and do nothing and let Saddam kill them.

How stupid are you? Or how stupid do you think history is. The facts are our government supported Saddam when he murdered and butchered his people and supplied him with the goods to do it. It is people like you who are 2 faced and forgetful. You support murder when its convenient then condemn it when it suits you. Dangerous minds like yours are in the WH.

In all this political game, you miss the main point.The powers in this world will constantly change. You are but a speck in space and time. You should not sell your soul so cheaply in support of war and corruption.

[PaceAdvantage]

You live in a fantasy world where death doesnt happen to "real" American people. "Foreigners" are considered "lower" forms of life and expendable because you are unfamiliar with their cultures.The government siezes on your fear of unknown cultures to indoctronate you of who is good and who is bad according to their interests. It is only because you are on top of the chain of power in this world that you can do what you do. But there is no truth in it. Its a pack of lies that will die in time. The U.S. is getting its ass kicked in Iraq because it lives on such a low level of consciousness. If it had just one smidge of intelligence,all these lives would have been spared and the threats from our neighbors would be half of what it is today.Wow man...you've got it all figured out....groovy....hey man, don't bogart that spliff!

I particularly got a good laugh out of "The U.S. is getting its ass kicked in Iraq...." line. That's a classic.

Let's see....Saddam dead....Iraqi army commandeered....Baghdad taken down in a matter of days....new government elected.....

Yeah, I'd say we got our asses kicked....just like Vietnam, right man?

[Light]

Definition of butt kicking: When Goliath thinks he can kill all the little people he pleases but despite their losses,the little people keep wearing him down,till he eventually crashes to the ground in a loud thud.

[PaceAdvantage]

Definition of butt kicking: When Goliath thinks he can kill all the little people he pleases but despite their losses,the little people keep wearing him down,till he eventually crashes to the ground in a loud thud.Keep rewriting history and I'll still continue to call you out on it....

You paint such a quaint little picture of the big bad US indiscriminately killing innocent women and children. Blackwater can only get you so far. Cherry picking stories where civilians are unfortunately killed will only get you and Bill Maher so far....

The Iraqi people are getting what they are getting because they refused many, many years ago to step up and rid the world of Saddam themselves. Are Iraqis that impotent? No, they aren't, as we have seen during this recent four year+ exchange. There came a point in time when the US could no longer take chances with wackos in the Middle East. It started with Afghanistan and moved into Iraq. Who's next baby?
BTW, I like the name Blackwater. It conjures up images of OIL

[Lefty]

light, how ignorant when you say why doesn't he send his kids to war. You can't SEND your kids to war, they volunteer or they don't but you don't send them. As Jenna told Diane Sawyer, 'there are many ways to serve your country. She will teach. Very commendable.
Why do you rant and rave so about your own country? Would you like it better ifwe lost? It seems so. We never lose wars, only the political rhetoric from libs has ever done us in.
Saddam was the bully, torturing and executing his own people. You are a very naive man light, very naive.

[46zilzal]

Why do you rant and rave so about your own country? Would you like it better ifwe lost? It seems so.
I believe the Constitution allows him to do just that ANYTIME he wants to.

[Lefty]

46, did i say he didn't have the right? I asked him why? That's my right also. Once again that big education has failed you.
And, don't you find it ironic that the Constitution that allows him to make such an ass of himself is in place because of the military that he rants against?

[46zilzal]

46, did i say he didn't have the right? I asked him why? That's my right also. Once again that big education has failed you.
Because there are hundreds of examples of CRAP being forced down peoples' throat that need to be questioned. They are the elected government, not royalty. Dissent based upon an examination of performance is a REQUIREMENT of the population.

[Lefty]

Wow, zilly, a new record. You responded to my last post in about 2 secs. So, after all this analysis you guys' conclusion is we should criticise the military? And the ansswer is to keep them from recruiting?
A brain is a terrible thing to waste... on a liberal...

[Light]

The Iraqi people are getting what they are getting because they refused many, many years ago to step up and rid the world of Saddam themselves.

Umm,that isn't the reason. It's this weird guy in the WH.

[46zilzal]

Wow, zilly, a new record. You responded to my last post in about 2 secs. So, after all this analysis you guys' conclusion is we should criticise the military? And the ansswer is to keep them from recruiting?
A brain is a terrible thing to waste... on a liberal...
Keep wasting lives. Given their track record it is hard to believe anyone would sign up. "Be the first ones on your block to have your boy come home in a box." Old song lyric fits.

[Lefty]

light, that so called "weird" guy in the WH has given the Iraqui people the ONLY chance they ever HAD at a Democracy. He also has kept us safe from other attacks with all the policies he has instituted that the Dems have tried to tear down. During all this, he has cut taxes, kept the economy humming and more money has come into the coffers as a result. Yeah, pretty friggin "weird" eh?

[Light]

they volunteer or they don't

Irrelevant. Presidents and Congressmen pull strings to keep their kids OUT of the military. Example: Mr.Bush. Daddy's boy.

[Light]

light, that so called "weird" guy in the WH has given the Iraqui people the ONLY chance they ever HAD at a Democracy.

Maybe they dont care enough about Democracy to see their love ones killed,their limbs blown off,their homes destroyed,their water poisoned,their land occupied,and their lives in ruin. Dont you think it would have been polite to ask them if this abuse would be O.K. with them, BEFORE America decided what's good for them.

[Lefty]

zilly, yeah i know you libs hate Bush and the military. It's not a waste to stand up to terrorists.

light, no, it's not irrelevent it's the facts. No one goes to the military that doesn't want to. It's ALL Volunteer.
Now you want to digress. Ok, we'll play your game. GW was in the Guard. And Clinton was speaking against this country on foreign soil while dodging the draft. But that was then this is now. You can't send your kids to the military and that's the bottom line.

[Light]

You know,there have been drafts and other wars and by golly,them president and congressmen's kids still did not show up. Amazing.

[Lefty]

light, you have no argument, so you digress in orderto obfuskate. That doesn't make war unnecessary because powerful people's kids don' t participate. Nothing to do with anything. And I suspect, if they did, some liberals would call them fools, just like they have done before with others that have volunteered.
Try again.

[46zilzal]

If they had the facts, the would be no vote for the wasteful war.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Politics/story?id=2771519&page=1

[Tom]

To suggestion that people only sign up fo rthe military for financial reasons or to get out of a bad situation is an insult to those who knowingly put thier lives on the line for something they believe in. You light weight mental midgets should be ashamed. Is this how you support our troops?

[delayjf]

The facts are our government supported Saddam when he murdered and butchered his people and supplied him with the goods to do it.
So basically the problem, as you see it, is the US should have invaded Iraq back in the 80's. If you did not support military action back in 1986 - then, by you're own inaction, you are responsible for all the murders committed by Saddam moving forward.

I am on the record on this board with my personal objections to the US contribution to Iraq's chemical warfare programs. I have also documented ad nausem just what the US contribution was (less than 10%). Whatever we did or did not do in the past does not preclude the US from acting in it's best interest in the future. Can you imagine any President tell the American people that "due to US support of a ruthless dictator during the 80's - The United States will now impose economic sanctions on ourselves." That might make you happy, but not me.

You cant put 1+2 together. Bush is an oil man. Cheney is an oil man. Condi is an oil woman. Bush's father likes to hang out with Saudi Shieks.Knock knock. Anybody home in between your ears?
Do you have any proof, other than you suspicions based on wacko guilt by association, 10 degrees of separation, conspiracy theories??

I use oil, you use oil, This is a nation who's economy is dependant on oil for transportation, oil for plastics etc. If that supply is disrupted this country suffers. Just ask Jimmy Carter. We may not like that fact, but that is reality. And the people who will suffer the most will be the ones who lose their jobs in the oil / oil related industry.

[46zilzal]

Hmmm, let's go out and INVADE a country, appropriate their resources under the guise of democratizing them. The end justifies the means. How Machiavellian!!

Sure as hell would not be the first nor last time it is going to happen.

[GaryG]

I would vote for Machiavelli if he was running for pres. The ends justify the means.

[46zilzal]

http://www.halexandria.org/dward818.htm
Ms. Rice is saying that if the goal -- the ends -- is to reduce the risk of attack by terrorists, then the process -- the means -- by which one does that is inherently okay. If, for example,
this means violating International Law and invading a country (such as Iraq) purely on the basis of what Iraq under Saddam Hussein might do, then according to the Rice/Bush doctrine, it's okay to violate the law and any inconvenient moral principles encountered along the way.

[skate]

http://www.halexandria.org/dward818.htm
Ms. Rice is saying that if the goal -- the ends -- is to reduce the risk of attack by terrorists, then the process -- the means -- by which one does that is inherently okay. If, for example,
this means violating International Law and invading a country (such as Iraq) purely on the basis of what Iraq under Saddam Hussein might do, then according to the Rice/Bush doctrine, it's okay to violate the law and any inconvenient moral principles encountered along the way.


was that another error. should you really want to sat "DID DO" and not "might do".

since they did, right up till March 2003 and now the Suddamy Doctine is no more of a worry.


and and and, we Now have N. Korea giving way to Uncle George.


whose Next, Iran or Zill-the-filly?

[hcap]

delayjfI am on the record on this board with my personal objections to the US contribution to Iraq's chemical warfare programs. I have also documented ad nausem just what the US contribution was (less than 10%).Ad nauseum? Not quite. Although your case of American exceptionalism is quite nauseating. Your 10% grossly underestimates our overall involvement . It ignores the dual use equipment, financial, and military intelligence the US provided and that helped Saddam fight Iran.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm

" Iraq started the war with a large Soviet-supplied arsenal, but needed additional weaponry as the conflict wore on.

Initially, Iraq advanced far into Iranian territory, but was driven back within months. By mid-1982, Iraq was on the defensive against Iranian human-wave attacks. The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war

"U.S. support for Iraq was not secret and was frequently discussed in open session of the Senate and House of Representatives, although the public and news media paid little attention. On 9 June 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline, "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into [an aggressive power]" and "Reagan/Bush administrations permitted — and frequently encouraged — the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq.”

"Much of what Iraq received from the US, however, were not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology— mainframe computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications. It is now known that a vast network of companies, based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring capabilities right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait. [8]

The "Iraq-gate" scandal revealed that an Atlanta branch of Italy's largest bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partially on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled US$ 5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. In August 1989, when FBI agents finally raided the Atlanta branch of BNL, the branch manager, Christopher Drogoul, was charged with making unauthorized, clandestine, and illegal loans to Iraq—some of which, according to his indictment, were used to purchase arms and weapons technology.

Beginning in September, 1989, the Financial Times laid out the first charges that BNL, relying heavily on U.S. government-guaranteed loans, was funding Iraqi chemical and nuclear weapons work. For the next two and a half years, the Financial Times provided the only continuous newspaper reportage (over 300 articles) on the subject. Among the companies shipping militarily useful technology to Iraq under the eye of the U.S. government, according to the Financial Times, were Hewlett-Packard, Tektronix, and Matrix Churchill, through its Ohio branch. [9]"

[46zilzal]

Hdcp don't waste too many facts on the great unwashed, they cannot comprehend them.

[delayjf]

Thanks for the link and proving my point.

"Much of what Iraq received from the US, however, were not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology— mainframe computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications.
It was my understanding that Iraq repulsed the human waves by throwing main frames at the Iranians.
In December 2002, Iraq's 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries—as well as individuals—that exported chemical and biological materials to Iraq in the past two decades. By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm of Singapore supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq. [12]
The sources of Iraqi arms purchases between 1970 and 1990 (10% of the world market during this period) are estimated to be:
Suppliers in Billions (1985 $US) % of total
Soviet Union 19.2 61
France 5.5 18
People's Republic of China 1.7 5
Brazil 1.1 4
Egypt 1.1 4
Other countries 2.9 6
Total 31.5 98.0

The U.S. sold Iraq $200 million in helicopters, which were used by the Iraqi military in the war. These were the only direct U.S.-Iraqi military sales and were valued to be about 0.6% of Iraq's conventional weapons imports during the war.[36]

[hcap]

I said Your 10% grossly underestimates our overall involvement . It ignores the dual use equipment, financial, and military intelligence the US provided and that helped Saddam fight Iran.So you think tanks and howitzers and such are a true measure of overall aid? Which is more important, the number of tanks or US superior tactical battlefield intel?

How much does this do in opening up opportunities for Saddam?
The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism.And more importantly this?On 9 June 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline, "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into [an aggressive power]" and "Reagan/Bush administrations permitted — and frequently encouraged — the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq.”

[delayjf]

So you think tanks and howitzers and such are a true measure of overall aid? Which is more important, the number of tanks or US superior tactical battlefield intel?
The tanks and howitzers of course, intel only allows you to deploy your forces in the most efficient manner. Your bias against the US has deluded you to the point that no matter how significate US support of Iraq was or was not, you find a way to elevate it to unsubstantiated level of importance.
The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism.
Yeah, that's right we made a choice between the lesser of two evils. That's life in the fast lane of Foreign Policy. Tell us something we don't know.
On 9 June 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline, "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into [an aggressive power]" and "Reagan/Bush administrations permitted — and frequently encouraged — the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq.”
So, what's your point? The US policy decision was to support Iraq over Iran. Let me guess, H Bush was setting the stage of the first Gulf War. And that became increasingly clear to who... Ted Koppel the camera man??

[hcap]

ABC's Nightline, "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into [an aggressive power]" and "Reagan/Bush administrations permitted — and frequently encouraged — the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq.”
If the US gave intel, financial aid and helped Iran instead of Iraq who would have won? Instead we helped Saddam. You may think financing Iraq and intel was not important, but without US support Iraq would have lost very early into the war. Our involvement increased in various ways as Iraq began to loose

Your 10% figure covers only military equip. Wars are also won or lost on who knows what. Here is an example. Read it and tell me that if Saddam had 5x the number of howitzers it would have meant more then this vital intel supplied by US satellites. This changed US p[olicy and helped Iraq.

Also you may be correct in our aid with military equipment early on in the war, but that changed as Iraq was up shits creek later on.

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article1413.htm
The Teicher Affidavit: Iraq-Gate


2. While a Staff Member to the National Security Council, I was
responsible for the Middle East and for Political-Military Affairs.
During my five year tenure on the National security Council, I had
regular contact with both CIA Director William Casey and Deputy Director
Robert Gates.

3. In the Spring of 1982, Iraq teetered on the brink of losing its
war with Iran. In May and June, 1982, the Iranians discovered a gap in
the Iraqi defenses along the Iran-Iraq border between Baghdad to the north
and Basra to the south. Iran positioned a massive invasion force directly
across from the gap in the Iraqi defenses. An Iranian breakthrough at the
spot would have cutoff Baghdad from Basra and would have resulted in
Iraq's defeat.

4. United States Intelligence, including satellite imagery, had
detected both the gap in the Iraqi defenses and the Iranian massing of
troops across from the gap. At the time, the United States was officially
neutral in the Iran-Iraq conflict.

5. President Reagan was forced to choose between (a) maintaining
strict neutrality and allowing Iran to defeat Iraq, or (b) intervening and
providing assistance to Iraq.

6. In June, 1982, President Reagan decided that the United States
could not afford to allow Iraq to lose the war to Iran. President Reagan
decided that the United States would do whatever was necessary and legal
to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran. President Reagan formalized
this policy by issuing a National Security Decision Directive ("NSDD") to
this effect in June, 1982. I have personal knowledge of this NSDD because
I co-authored the NSDD with another NSC Staff Member, Geoff Kemp. The
NSDD, including even its indentifying number, is classified.


7. CIA Director Casey personally spearheaded the effort to ensure
that Iraq had sufficient military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to
avoid losing the Iran-Iraq war. Pursuant to the secred NSDD, the United
States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis
with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military
intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third
country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military
weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational
advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat. For example,
in 1986, President Reagan sent a secret message to Saddam Hussein telling
him that Iraq should step up its air war and bombing of Iran. This
message was delivered by Vice President Bush who communicated it to
Egyptian President Mubarak, who in turn passed the message to Saddam
Hussein. Similar strategic operational military advice was passed to
Saddam Hussein through various meetings with European and Middle Eastern
heads of state. I authored Bush's talking points for the 1986 meeting
with Mubarak and personally attended numerous meetings with European and
Middle East heads of state where the strategic operational advice was
communicated.

8. I personally attended meetings in which CIA Director Casey or
CIA Deputy Director Gates noted the need for Iraq to have certain weapons
such as cluster bombs and anti-armor penetrators in order to stave off the
Iranian attacks. When I joined the NSC staff in early 1982, CIA Director
Casey was adamant that cluster bombs were a perfect "force multiplier"
that would allow the Iraqis to defend against the "human waves" of Iranian
attackers. I recorded those comments in the minutes of National Security
Planning Group ("NSPG") meetings in which Casey or Gates participated.

9. The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director
Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin
military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda
and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew
of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military
weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.

[delayjf]

Hcap,

No doubt the intel we provided helped the Iraqis, but unless you have the ability to exploit the intel what good is it? Without the tanks, artillery, etc all the intel in the world will not win a battle.

By the way, the US did not provide cluster bombs to Iraq - a Chilean company made those weapons. The US (CIA) assisted in the sale. We also provided any spare parts for the eastern block equipment that we had in our possession.

But again, you are insinuating the the US was THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR to the Iraqi Army and it was just not the case.