The Cat

[ghostyapper]

Will make an appearance in the vosburgh. Glad he's finally gonna make it back to the track. I know its crazy but something tells me we'll see him in the classic

[classhandicapper]

Will make an appearance in the vosburgh. Glad he's finally gonna make it back to the track. I know its crazy but something tells me we'll see him in the classic

I've been wondering if he was still in training in Dubai because his name didn't show up anywhere else.

[cj]

I've been wondering if he was still in training in Dubai because his name didn't show up anywhere else.

From a Bloodhorse article:

Discreet Cat has been working steadily for his return and has had five works since he first hit the work tab at Saratoga Aug. 27.

[joanied]

I'll sure be interested in how he runs in the V...they never, never, never should have run him in Dubia... he's way better than that!!
If he puts in a good one in the V, I would not be surprised to see him in the Classic also.

[46zilzal]

Will make an appearance in the vosburgh. Glad he's finally gonna make it back to the track. I know its crazy but something tells me we'll see him in the classic
So far, this one says SPRINT and that's all.

[Drift]

Guess again. He won't have enough points to get into the Classic. From the same Bloodhorse article:

"Godolphin will have the option of running Discreet Cat in either the $2-million TVG Breeders’ Cup Sprint (gr. I) at Monmouth Park Oct. 27 or the inaugural $1-million Breeders’ Cup Dirt Mile the day before. Discreet Cat doesn’t possess any Breeders’ Cup points, but he would earn an automatic berth to the Breeders’ Cup Sprint if he won the Vosburgh under the Breeders’ Cup new format of “Win and You’re In” for selected races, such as the Vosburgh. "

[ghostyapper]

Guess again. He won't have enough points to get into the Classic. From the same Bloodhorse article:

"Godolphin will have the option of running Discreet Cat in either the $2-million TVG Breeders’ Cup Sprint (gr. I) at Monmouth Park Oct. 27 or the inaugural $1-million Breeders’ Cup Dirt Mile the day before. Discreet Cat doesn’t possess any Breeders’ Cup points, but he would earn an automatic berth to the Breeders’ Cup Sprint if he won the Vosburgh under the Breeders’ Cup new format of “Win and You’re In” for selected races, such as the Vosburgh. "

That doesn't mean he won't get in. The field would have to max out first.

[gIracing]

He's been training lights out at belmont since the beginning of the month.

[classhandicapper]

From a Bloodhorse article:

That's strange because I just happened to look him up about a week ago using the DRF online WO search and there were no WOs listed. I see there are a bunch listed now.

[gIracing]

interesting, because i've been getting them. he had throat surgery to remove some crap that was hendering him from breathing.

this might, just might be the best race of the year

[DanG]

Godolphin specialty…firing huge off the bench. Should run a hole in the wind as usual and be handled like a fragile egg thereafter.

Hope not…Obviously as talented a sprinter / middle distance runner as there is when right.

BTW: Another Godolphin quirk; they bunch their wins with remarkable consistency. They will tear apart a stakes card one week and then run up the track in bunches. If they enter several on one card (regardless of location) it often pays to follow the “trend” of early performance. Purely antidotal evidence btw, I have no hard facts to back it up.

[joanied]

I agree...he's a sprinter for sure, and trying him at the Classic distance would be a huge mistake...especially with the field we'll have for it...
I do hope he runs that hole in the wind in the V...and they drop him into the BC dirt mile.
But, if they wanted to sup him to the Classic, or any other BC race for that matter...the money is hardly a problem for those guys...pocket change!!!
:)

[gIracing]

take out the World Cup Classic, what has Discreet Cat done to make you think he can't route?

He recieved a freakin 127 Timeform (about a 115 Beyer) in the Cigar Mile

His dam, Pretty Discreet won the Alabama Stakes a Grade 1 mile and an 8th race.

Forestry was more of a shorter distance race horse but did show up in classic type races like the Deyer and the haskell.

His UAE Derby win was a 114 Beyer, or about a 127 Timeform,w hich would have been good enough to win any of the triple crown races this year.

If he is HEALTHY.. he might be the best horse in the world right now on dirt.

[DanG]

take out the World Cup Classic, what has Discreet Cat done to make you think he can't route?

He recieved a freakin 127 Timeform (about a 115 Beyer) in the Cigar Mile

His dam, Pretty Discreet won the Alabama Stakes a Grade 1 mile and an 8th race.

Forestry was more of a shorter distance race horse but did show up in classic type races like the Deyer and the haskell.

His UAE Derby win was a 114 Beyer, or about a 127 Timeform,w hich would have been good enough to win any of the triple crown races this year.

If he is HEALTHY.. he might be the best horse in the world right now on dirt.
He will be 5 in a few months and has made a grand total of 6 starts. Zero two turn American tries, much less a win. One UAE distance attempt followed by excuse # 467 in the trainer’s handbook.

At some point…if it walks like a duck…well, you know the rest.

PS: It’s no disgrace to be “only” a brilliant sprinter / miler. I wish more trainers / owners would recognize this fact and place horses where their lung capacity can excel. Part of the issue why our breed has weakened in pushing animals beyond their distance limitations. (BTW: This is in regard to grade-1 company of course with the ‘Cat. The old racing axiom of “he can’t get X dist” never applies if a field is weak enough imo.)

[ghostyapper]

He will be 5 in a few months and has made a grand total of 6 starts. Zero two turn American tries, much less a win. One UAE distance attempt followed by excuse # 467 in the trainer’s handbook.

At some point…if it walks like a duck…well, you know the rest.


You could end up being right about his distance limitations but I don't see any evidence to suggest he can't get 10 furlongs against top competition. He had a valid excuse in dubai. He was not healthy enough to get in a prep before the race and hasn't raced since. He clearly was never in the race, had nothing to do with the distance.

Now you can say that picking the jerome and cigar over route races might be proof but I prefer to have the horse show me on the track he can't get the distance rather than the races his trainer picks out for him.

[gIracing]

You could end up being right about his distance limitations but I don't see any evidence to suggest he can't get 10 furlongs against top competition. He had a valid excuse in dubai. He was not healthy enough to get in a prep before the race and hasn't raced since. He clearly was never in the race, had nothing to do with the distance.

Now you can say that picking the jerome and cigar over route races might be proof but I prefer to have the horse show me on the track he can't get the distance rather than the races his trainer picks out for him.

GREAT points.. I could not believe it when he was still entered in the Dubai world cup. he was scratched from his prep race because he wasn't right.


Try running full speed for say... 2 mintues... and you can't take a deep breath. that's your excuse 467.


Also, some of the best horses of all time used Sprints to prep. Seattle Slew. Ghostzapper used the Vosbrough to prep for the Classic. so it's not unheard of.

also..7 starts... don't cut my boy short

[Tee]

I'm thinking Ghostzapper was being pointed toward the BC Sprint in 2003 after his Vosburgh win.


Ghostzapper used the Vosbrough to prep for the Classic. so it's not unheard of.

[ezrabrooks]

Do you really think he could go to the Classic off a 6F Vosburgh prep? I hope he does come back and run well, no matter where he ends up.

Ez

[samyn on the green]

Ghostzapper used the Vosbrough to prep for the Classic. so it's not unheard of.

also..7 starts... don't cut my boy shortGhostzapper prepped for the BC classic in the Woodward. That was the race where St. Liam carried Gzap out wide and it was a nip and ruck duel to the wire.

Ghostzappers Vosburgh smasher was in 2003, he did not run in the BC classic that year.

[gIracing]

you are right, becaues Saint Liam came back and won the Classic next year.


RIP my friend

[Cratos]

He will be 5 in a few months and has made a grand total of 6 starts. Zero two turn American tries, much less a win. One UAE distance attempt followed by excuse # 467 in the trainer’s handbook.

At some point…if it walks like a duck…well, you know the rest.

PS: It’s no disgrace to be “only” a brilliant sprinter / miler. I wish more trainers / owners would recognize this fact and place horses where their lung capacity can excel. Part of the issue why our breed has weakened in pushing animals beyond their distance limitations. (BTW: This is in regard to grade-1 company of course with the ‘Cat. The old racing axiom of “he can’t get X dist” never applies if a field is weak enough imo.)

Discreet Cat is a 4yo this year. Also whether he can get a distance beyond the mile might be debatable, but in the Cigar Mile he went 1:07.75 for the 6f, 1:32.46 for the mile with 124 Lbs on his back and was drawing away at the end after stern challenges early in the race from both Badge of Silver and Silver Train, two pretty good horses.

[DanG]

Discreet Cat is a 4yo this year. Also whether he can get a distance beyond the mile might be debatable, but in the Cigar Mile he went 1:07.75 for the 6f, 1:32.46 for the mile with 124 Lbs on his back and was drawing away at the end after stern challenges early in the race from both Badge of Silver and Silver Train, two pretty good horses.
As I said…he will be 5 in a few months.

All I’m saying is you can count the animals on one hand who at this stage of their life begin winning 10f / 2-turn / grade-1 races. Taking nothing away from his brilliance, I would book serious wagers to the contrary and give odds. Even over a Monmouth strip that should favor his style.

[Cratos]

As I said…he will be 5 in a few months.

All I’m saying is you can count the animals on one hand who at this stage of their life begin winning 10f / 2-turn / grade-1 races. Taking nothing away from his brilliance, I would book serious wagers to the contrary and give odds. Even over a Monmouth strip that should favor his style.

You are correct to say that in general a horse late in its career might not be able to do something it has never done.

However Discreet Cat appears not be just a horse which follows the “general rules”, but an exceptional animal that can do exceptional things. But I will agree with you that at this time (Sep07) I don’t think that Discreet Cat’s conditioning has prepared him for a tough G1 race at 1 ¼ miles.

If he comes back to the races (and I hope he does) in 2008 I believe with the proper training and conditioning he will get the 1 ¼ mile distance in winning fashion.

[joanied]

:) We can debate Discreet Cat all we want....but I'll wait to see how he runs in the V. I beleive his "being the best horse in the World" is for sure a matter of opinion...but I can't see how you can put that tag on him since he hasn't done anything so far this year. I agree...toss the Dubia race...never should have run.
But as for a pure speed horse, he still may :ThmbUp: be the fastest horse in the World.
I hope he kicks butt in the V and that they run him in one of the BC Sprint races, or the Dirt Mile.

Time will tell.....

[ceejay]

You are correct to say that in general a horse late in its career might not be able to do something it has never done.

Like run in a field > 8 ;).

[Cratos]

:) We can debate Discreet Cat all we want....but I'll wait to see how he runs in the V. I beleive his "being the best horse in the World" is for sure a matter of opinion...but I can't see how you can put that tag on him since he hasn't done anything so far this year. I agree...toss the Dubia race...never should have run.
But as for a pure speed horse, he still may :ThmbUp: be the fastest horse in the World.
I hope he kicks butt in the V and that they run him in one of the BC Sprint races, or the Dirt Mile.

Time will tell.....

I didn't say or imply that Discreet Cat was " the best horse in the World." However I did say that he was an exceptional animal and I will stick by that.

[Cratos]

Like run in a field > 8 ;).

I suppose size matters

[gIracing]

you can all but gurantee Discreet Cat will be back next year. He's Godolphin's best chance at winning the Dubai World Cup.

Not the fastest horse in the world.. damn fast and I don't think he has stanima issues that others think.. he has BREATHING issues.

[ceejay]

"Disappointed with the result but the horse he needed the race," trainer Saeed bin Suroor said. "He'll improve from the race and six furlongs looks like it's a little too short for him. I think we'll take him now to the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile." Fabulous Strike impresses in Vosburgh (http://www.drf.com/news/article/89013.html)

[Cratos]

Fabulous Strike impresses in Vosburgh (http://www.drf.com/news/article/89013.html)


With the following comment: " but did not punch when jockey Garrett Gomez asked him in the stretch." I think David Grening of the DRF and me was watching two different races because Gomez realized in the stretch that he could not catch the leader, Fabulous Strike and just rode the ‘Cat to the finish for a very good workout. It should be noted that the ‘Cat got the 5f in :57 flat and closed out the 6f in 1:10.22 while not losing any ground to the winner from the 5/8 mark to the finish; and this should be a very good “tightener” for him if his connections should decide to run the ‘Cat in the inaugural BC Mile on the dirt at Monmouth..

[JustRalph]

I thought he looked done in the lane. I will go back and watch the tape.......but I bet there are more people looking down his throat tonight than attended a marlins game last week.............

[OTM Al]

I've been to a Marlins game this year. That's no bet! I wish I would have been playing today. This was the juiciest race of the lot. 5-1 on Fab Strike. Making a horse coming off that long a layoff the fav is crazy, but it happens time and time again.

[Tom]

Discreet Monkey. :D

[Cratos]

I've been to a Marlins game this year. That's no bet! I wish I would have been playing today. This was the juiciest race of the lot. 5-1 on Fab Strike. Making a horse coming off that long a layoff the fav is crazy, but it happens time and time again.

Although I am a fan of the 'Cat I agree with you that the odds were wacko for a horse coming off a long layoff into a G1 race. Having said that I would not bet against the 'Cat in his next outing.

[gIracing]

if this were an allowence race and discreet cat wasn't discreet cat, he'd be the fav next out. my gosh he just came off a what.. a 6 month layoff with really only 5 works, and you want him to win a grade 1.

[OTM Al]

Depends on the race. If its the mile, then you might be right.

[lilmegahertz]

This time I couldn't play him until I saw how he would do but next time out he just might be on my tri.

[Tom]

This has more failures in the last year than good races. I see no reason to consider him any kind of contender in a Graded race until he proves he is till a race horse. He has been a failure longer than he has been a copntender. the fact that his connections were totally amazed that he did not win yesterday
tells me his connections don't know thier horse, or are milking the noteriety as long as they can. :ThmbDown:

[cj]

Hard to imagine him even getting into a BC race, isn't it?

[Tom]

I hear they're looking for filler on the Friday card - BC Jr. :lol:

[gIracing]

This has more failures in the last year than good races. I see no reason to consider him any kind of contender in a Graded race until he proves he is till a race horse. He has been a failure longer than he has been a copntender. the fact that his connections were totally amazed that he did not win yesterday
tells me his connections don't know thier horse, or are milking the noteriety as long as they can. :ThmbDown:

I know you just didnt' accuse Godolphin of "milking the noteriety" as long as they can.

When the previous day, they caputred the Queen Elizabeth II at Ascot with Ramonti

here is a list of all the graded stakes winners they have in training around the world

http://www.godolphin.com/HorseCategory.aspx?id=3

it's 56 in all. Discreet Cat running well is an afterthought. if he does he does, if not, he's gone to stud where he can be of use.

Godolphin isn't Todd Pletcher. if they tell you he needed a race.. he needed a race. if they didnt' think he would be back in form, they'd put him in the shed and call up the next horse to take his place.

[freddymo]

They spend 500mil a year to win 30mil in purses. Thank Ahlah oil is 75 a barrel.

[ghostyapper]

I see no reason to consider him any kind of contender in a Graded race until he proves he is till a race horse.

Wow thats harsh. So you would toss him in a G3 at aqueduct in December?

[lilmegahertz]

Oops...it looks like I accidentally opened a can of worms with the I would put a couple bucks on D. Cat comment...:blush:

[Tom]

Wow thats harsh. So you would toss him in a G3 at aqueduct in December?

Now you're nitpicking. Talking about G1 races here, maybe G2. G3's are a joke in most cases. But off current fomr the last 12 months, I would not bet him in a claimer, until he shows shows something. My guess is he will never run as good as he did yesterday, if he ever runs again.

[GaryG]

Now you're nitpicking. Talking about G1 races here, maybe G2. G3's are a joke in most cases. But off current fomr the last 12 months, I would not bet him in a claimer, until he shows shows something. My guess is he will never run as good as he did yesterday, if he ever runs again.I agree....looks like he is done, at just about any level.

[OTM Al]

Think Cigar Mile Tom. How long you think it either 1) stays in November or 2) stays a Grade 1, after the BC Mile adoption? There won't be much good left running for that one this year unless you got a couple out there that are not BC eligible and the owner doesn't feel like ponying up.

[ceejay]

Now you're nitpicking. Talking about G1 races here, maybe G2. G3's are a joke in most cases. But off current fomr the last 12 months, I would not bet him in a claimer, until he shows shows something. My guess is he will never run as good as he did yesterday, if he ever runs again.
5K clm N2Y?

[Tom]

Hmmmmmm. Probably half the horses at Finger Lakes are not eligible for races DC is.:lol:

How about a match race - DC vx Green Monkey?

[gIracing]

They spend 500mil a year to win 30mil in purses. Thank Ahlah oil is 75 a barrel.

and how much does the stallion operation make them?

[DanG]

and how much does the stallion operation make them?
Not close to Coolmore for example…

“Make” is not the operative word with Godolphin. Their racing / breeding operation is in the red in massive proportions and they could care less. They have plans laid out over the next century’s in an attempt to return the dominance of the breed back to the Arabian stallion named Godolphin some 300 years ago. As Tom said; at some $80 a barrel, with extreme dedication and X # of years of oil reserves ahead…they may do just that.

PS: If anyone wants a break from straight handicapping and wants to read a fascinating high stakes showdown. Check out the war between Coolmore and Godolphin, not to mention their facilities which are beyond belief. :eek:

[OTM Al]

Besides spending on horses, you see pictures of the new race course and "horse city" they are building? Absolutely mind blowing. It really must be good to be the king.....

[DanG]

Besides spending on horses, you see pictures of the new race course and "horse city" they are building? Absolutely mind blowing. It really must be good to be the king.....
Well put Al;

Bloodhorse article on the multi-BILLION dollar project…

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=38239

http://www.swinleytravel.co.uk/Dubai%207.jpg
(http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=38239)

[OTM Al]

I got to see that someday. Better start saving my nickles......

[gIracing]

I was lucky enough to go to Dubai earlier this year to see the Dubai world cup. hell, the current track is heads and sholders better than anything we have for the most part. the city is a very beautiful city, but 5 years from now, there might not be another like it on earth

[gIracing]

Not close to Coolmore for example…

“Make” is not the operative word with Godolphin. Their racing / breeding operation is in the red in massive proportions and they could care less. They have plans laid out over the next century’s in an attempt to return the dominance of the breed back to the Arabian stallion named Godolphin some 300 years ago. As Tom said; at some $80 a barrel, with extreme dedication and X # of years of oil reserves ahead…they may do just that.

PS: If anyone wants a break from straight handicapping and wants to read a fascinating high stakes showdown. Check out the war between Coolmore and Godolphin, not to mention their facilities which are beyond belief. :eek:

you are correct. However I wuld venture to say they aren't in the red as one might think.. their breeding operation.. although it's not on coolmore's level of course... they don't do half bad.

[DanG]

you are correct. However I wuld venture to say they aren't in the red as one might think.. their breeding operation.. although it's not on coolmore's level of course... they don't do half bad.
True GI, no one is crying poverty at Godolphin;

The provincial question remains; where will the North American breed be for our children in terms of quality? Just how many years in a row have we lost many of our finest pedigrees, conformations and runners to overseas interests? Our breeders are the obvious benefactor, but it’s highly debatable that our population as a whole is improving even with our excellent homebreds.

[gIracing]

well considering Darley has a stud operation in kentucky now... I don't see it being a problem


no.. the problem I see is not enough northern dancer (outside of storm cat).. in our stallions. we need more turf stallions damnit! when coolmore ireland cand line up it's top 5 stallions and it's 10x better than our entire country has to offer, that's sad.

what's even sadder...their foundation stallion, sadler's wells.. was stolen right from under kentucky.