A United Front for Arizona and All Horseplayers Against Arizona HB 2694

[ALostTexan]

At this point, everyone is very well aware of what has occured in the past few months in Arizona. If not, let me quickly review. The State Legislature in May passed HB 2694 (http://azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=2694), which in essense makes it not only unlawful for horseplayers in the state to wager on races using ADW's, but makes it a Class 6 Felony, equilivent to indicent exposure, sexual conduct with a minor, or placing a person in iniment danger.

The implications on this are devestating to the entire world of horse racing. To the horsemen all states, this bill will be detrimental to the overall wagering handle, and regardless of how insignificant Arizona may seem now, this is one of the fastest-growing states in the nation, and the impact will only grow into the future. This also sets a very bad precedent, as this move can very well be taken in any other state in the nation. Finally, this move is very bad for the horsemen and live tracks in Arizona itself, as this has already caused an unpleasant rift between horseplayers and all involved parties in Arizona, and a blame-game is occuring as we speak.

The time is now for the horseplayers of Arizona and the rest of the nation to make a stand against this form of legislation. The current battleground is Arizona, and I am asking for a unified front in this state. Tomorrow morning, I plan on requesting a meeting with the Arizona Horsemen's Horseman’s Benevolent & Protective Association’s (AZHBPA) is discuss the current situation. I believe that the best course of action right now is a diplomatic effort to overturn this bill, and I and others very well connected to the situation believe that the horsemen are the best means of achieving diplomacy.

I am asking that the horseplayers and members of Pace Advantage unite to form a single voice.

I am asking that anyone that agrees that HB 2694 is wrong to please reply to this thread with your name, location, and any comments you wish to forward to the AZHBPA. Like Betovernetcapper has done in the past with petitions, if you would like to use your real name and location but not post it, please fee free to PM me and I will write it in.

I am honestly not sure where the AZHBPA stands on this issue, and the meeting I will be requesting is only to share the information that I collect and make them aware that the online community is outraged with the events of HB 2694.

I will update this thread and any others that are important in the next few days. I appreciate any assistance that members give, and if anyone would like to talk over the phone or even in person, please feel free to PM me and I will provide contact information.

This is an important issue to all horseplayers, and we must take a united stand against this and similar legislation.

[betovernetcapper]

R Young (betovernetcapper)
http://boycotttracknet.com/

[njcurveball]

Jim C.
Galloway, NJ


<crossing hands in front of my crotch>

I got TWO words for the Arizona State Legislature.........


SUCK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND you can quote me on that one!

[swetyejohn]

John Swetye, Darien, CT

Why do the supporters of House Bill 2694 think it is OK to treat the citizens of Arizona like children? Do the supporters of the bill really think so little of Arizona citizens?

If so, then I have a new state motto for you... "Arizona... the Nanny State."

Isn't it hypocritical for racetracks in Arizona to accept wagers from out-of-state (most of which comes from account wagering) while at the same time prohibiting Arizona citizens from having Advanced Deposit Wagering accounts? Or have AZ politicians prohibited AZ racetracks from receiving out-of-state wagers on AZ races?

I can only hope that the opponents of House Bill 2694 are many in number and send a strong message to every politician who supported this bill by removing them from their office in the next election.

There are casinos and lotteries in the majority of states in the Union, including Arizona, which take in far greater amounts of betting than the racetracks in our great country. And yet, it is deemed acceptable for an Arizona resident to bet in an Arizona casino or buy an Arizona lottery ticket (which transmits betting information over telecommunications line, by the way), but it is not acceptable for Arizona citizens to bet on a game of skill such as a horse race through an advanced deposit wagering account?

Surely, House Bill 2694 prohibits Arizona citizens from opening an Advanced Deposit Wagering account at Hedgestreet.com where Arizona residents can bet on the price of gasoline or housing prices? By the way, Hedgestreet.com is regulated by the Federal Agency CFTC. Good luck explaining House Bill 2694 to CFTC.

House Bill 2694 is absurd and everyone knows it.

[Froggy]

I can't put into words my anger, resentment and disappointment in the actions of my elected officials.

It was already illegal to bet online any race that took place inside the states boundaries, now they have made it illegal to bet on races outside the states boundaries.

All this is intended to increase the sales of admission, hot dogs and beer at the track, not to mention the small increase in profit buy eliminating the ADW's.

Since very few people can walk to the track this would increase the consumption of oil by driving and revenue of mass transit.

All this does is eliminate us senior citizens on fixed incomes and limited physical mobility and puts barriers in the way to attract new and younger computer literate horseplayers.

Saturday I signed a contract to sell my home at a loss and am going to another state this week to find a place to buy in a more friendly environment.

My name address and number and voting district is available on request.

Froggy

[shanta]

Richie P.
New Rochelle,N.Y.

Arizona Legislature: STOP imposing your morality shit on the residents in your state. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[Premier Turf Club]

Protectionism will kill this game. Every one of these laws is just another victory for the off-shore bookmakers.

Once again, the interests of the players are ignored. Damn shame.

[Ted Craven]

FWIW, sign me in. A damn shame: responsible adults don't need the state babysitting them. And if it that's not the reason, then polititians should fess up re their protectionist or other political motives.

God, Froggy, it makes me boil to hear what you said about selling and moving. (It also says something about your dedication to the sport...) I'd suggest Canada, but I'm trying to get somewhere warm for the wintertime myself.

Ted Craven

[Scav]

Protectionism will kill this game. Every one of these laws is just another victory for the off-shore bookmakers.

Once again, the interests of the players are ignored. Damn shame.

You talk about off-shore but that simply isn't true. They single handly destoryed that industry with many people hesistant to bet with any real money over there now. All that money filtered itself back to sites like yourself (who offer rebates) or back into the actual track pools. There is no trust in that industry like there was with a Pinnacle.

I was a Pinnacle customer, and only a Pinnacle customer because there was trust there, can't trust a single site now because it is impossible to get a withdrawal into this country now for anything over $2500.

[ceejay]

I, for one, will not play any AZ tracks until 2694 is repealed.

Craig P., OK

[rrbauer]

Takeout at Arizona tracks on ALL pools is 20% and HIGHER. They PASS every test: The HIGH-TAKEOUT test. The HIGH-BREAKAGE test. And, the DUMB-SHIT politicians' test. Three for three. Way to go Arizona!!

(Sorry Boomer!)

[shanta]

can we get an email address to blast these officials with our opinion of what went down?

Then we need thousands of concerned folks to speak up in the emails. I will do my part and let EVERY player i know about this effort

???

[Premier Turf Club]

You talk about off-shore but that simply isn't true. They single handly destoryed that industry with many people hesistant to bet with any real money over there now. All that money filtered itself back to sites like yourself (who offer rebates) or back into the actual track pools. There is no trust in that industry like there was with a Pinnacle.

I was a Pinnacle customer, and only a Pinnacle customer because there was trust there, can't trust a single site now because it is impossible to get a withdrawal into this country now for anything over $2500.

ehorse, for one handles hundreds of millions in wagers every year. Yes, it's a helluva lot harder to get money out of the off-shores now, but many other serious bettors I know still have an account with a book to play the tracks they can't play at their favorite ADW (PTC or others). It's probably north of 75% in states like California that forbid rebating.

Outlawing account wagering (or rebating) doesn't do any more to stop the activity than prohibition did to stop the consumption of alcohol.

[betovernetcapper]

Any chance of this thread becoming a sticky?

[csmith]

Cliff Smith, Pinellas Park Florida


I, will not play any Arizona Horse or Greyhound track until 2694 is repealed.

[ALostTexan]

Update

I just spoke to an official with the AZHBPA. He is willing to sit down with me next week, after returning to Arizona, to discuss the results of this bill and the reaction online to the bill. I have stressed that the online community does not want this to have to get to an official boycott of the Arizona tracks, and that so far the bill has created a great deal of negative publicity for live racing in Arizona.

I will give more updates as they occur...

[rrbauer]

Update

I just spoke to an official with the AZHBPA. He is willing to sit down with me next week, after returning to Arizona, to discuss the results of this bill and the reaction online to the bill. I have stressed that the online community does not want this to have to get to an official boycott of the Arizona tracks, and that so far the bill has created a great deal of negative publicity for live racing in Arizona.

I will give more updates as they occur...


Make sure you ask him how much horseplayer input they solicited BEFORE they turned on the legislative spigot. And, make sure that you tell him that Turf Paradise just went to the top of our Thumbs-Down tracks in conjunction with their opening on October 5.

[mhrussell]

M. Russell
Glendora, CA.

And while they're at it.. they had better realize that the WPS takeout for Turf Paradise is obscene! I refuse to play AZ because of that alone not to mention the advent of this ridiculous law. I'm in CA but had often thought about AZ as a place to retire. But not anymore. I can only imagine the outrage that AZ resident horseplayers must be feeling. :mad:

[ALostTexan]

This is your chance to be heard.


I will continue to collect comments throughout the next week, so please be heard, even if you have not played any of the Arizona tracks. This is a golden opportunity for the online horseplayers to be heard, and could set a precedent that could be heard across the country into the future.

Please post your comments, or at least your name and location to show your support...

[stuball]

How can they not know this bill will destroy racing in AZ.....
Boomer did you know about this when we answered your plea
for a Buycott.....now sorry we selected ALB as target....
Not 1 penny for AZ...not 1....the end

Stuball :mad: :mad: :ThmbDown:

[betovernetcapper]

ALB is in New Mexico and Boomer is not a member of the Arizona State Government

[ceejay]

now sorry we selected ALB as target....
Why? :confused: :confused:

[betchatoo]

Scott Urban

Not one cent to Arizona tracks unless and until the law is repealed

[mudcat]

i will not bet Az tracks. mudcat (j oliver )

[michiken]

You can count me in on the Arizona track boycott!

Share you signal with all ADWs and watch your profit grow.

Ken R
Northville, MI

[INFRONT07]

let them know how much money in taxes the are going to lose.that will wake them up.good job texan.im with you.don;t bet turf paradise.send e-mail to the track:mad:

[Steve 'StatMan']

Rarely bet AZ racing before. Won't now, until law repealed. Had planned to visit snowbirding parent there for first time, now reconsidering the trip from Chicago.

Steve Miller, IL

[xtb]

Adios Arizona

[swetyejohn]

I would love it if someone could draw a cartoon of a politician in a nursery of a hospital. The nursery would be like an OTB with the babies laying in their cribs reading Daily Racing Form.

The caption would be the politician saying like "I'd like to welcome all you newborns to Arizona -- the Nanny State."

Maybe even an avatar -- "Arizona -- the Nanny State."

etc.

[Turntime]

Count me in. Arizona took a big step backward with the passage of this bill. I also believe it may be unlawful based on the following:

1. Many of the ADW’s offer incentives to wager in the form of gifts or cash rebates. HB 2964 forces AZ residents to effectively pay a higher price for the same product.

2. The threat of being prosecuted as a felon creates a “Coercive Monopoly”. Class 6 felonies are usually reserved for serious and often violent crimes. This overly harsh penalty for wagering on a horse race can only be interpreted as a government sanctioned “coercive threat”, designed to eliminate any unwanted competition.

3. Forcing AZ residents to wager at brick and mortar facilities eliminates the technological benefits and advances that online wagering provides.

Horseplayers everywhere are fed up with the disregard shown to us by the racing community. We're fed up with the petty bickering and protectionist mentality. Although we love the game, we don't need horseracing to survive, horseracing needs us.

I urge the people responsible for the passage of this bill to reconsider their decision.

TH
Phoenix, AZ

[TomC]

TomC, Arizona resident

I will not put 1 nickle through the Arizona betting windows until this is repealed. It just more money that TUP/YAV will now lose. And less tax for the state.

Another law that just passed: TEXT messaging while DRIVING is now illegal, as if we needed a law for this! The fine for this crime, which can KILL innocent people, (and innocent people have been killed already by dummies text messaging while driving) is a $200 fine!!! Oh, and the penalty for putting $50 to win on a horse through a legal internet ADW? 1 year in jail and $100,000 fine.

Yeah, these people will get my vote when election time comes around! Sure.

[swetyejohn]

You should start writing letters to the editors of various AZ newspapers. That's an excellent point about how stupid this new anti-betting law is.

The fine for killing someone is less than the fine for placing a bet.

[NateBracey]

I have absolutely no way of wagering on the
tracks I play (Philly & MNR) short of driving
from N. Scottsdale to Turf Paradise in Phoenix.
Let me explain the logistics of actually trying to do this.
I must get up early, drive to TUP, get the late scratches
and place my bets on Philly. Now I have a choice.
Stay there until I can get late scratches at MNR and
place my MNR wagers OR go home, come back at 3:30
or so, get the late scratches and return home. :bang:
Sure I can place my MNR wagers early too, but I am sure
you guys are aware that late scratches can change or add
selections, SO....it's not really feasable.
Count me in on the boycott! NO SOUP FOR YOU - TUP!!!!

[BillW]

Protectionism is absolutely crazy. One more state to scratch off my list!

Bill - Tx.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not that I played much in Arizona anyway, but now it's an easy toss.

[alydar]

ALB is in New Mexico and Boomer is not a member of the Arizona State Government

I beleive he was referring to Yavapai

[alydar]

Not that I played much in Arizona anyway, but now it's an easy toss.

Agreed!!!

What with their high takeout and quality racing!!

Once again we see a struggling segment of the industry that dosen;t really get it.

[stuball]

Sorry about that comment about ALB --- don't know what made me think it
was in AZ (senior moment) still not a penny for AZ tracks (when I look them up).....LOL (sorry Boomer)

Stuball :confused:

[wes]

Arizona
Placed in the no bet file for me!!!

wes

[GMB@BP]

Count me in. Arizona took a big step backward with the passage of this bill. I also believe it may be unlawful based on the following:

1. Many of the ADW’s offer incentives to wager in the form of gifts or cash rebates. HB 2964 forces AZ residents to effectively pay a higher price for the same product.

2. The threat of being prosecuted as a felon creates a “Coercive Monopoly”. Class 6 felonies are usually reserved for serious and often violent crimes. This overly harsh penalty for wagering on a horse race can only be interpreted as a government sanctioned “coercive threat”, designed to eliminate any unwanted competition.

3. Forcing AZ residents to wager at brick and mortar facilities eliminates the technological benefits and advances that online wagering provides.

Horseplayers everywhere are fed up with the disregard shown to us by the racing community. We're fed up with the petty bickering and protectionist mentality. Although we love the game, we don't need horseracing to survive, horseracing needs us.

I urge the people responsible for the passage of this bill to reconsider their decision.

TH
Phoenix, AZ

solid post.....it definately seems like the punishment does not fit the "crime"....5 years in jail for making a wager on a horse race.

[swetyejohn]

solid post.....it definately seems like the punishment does not fit the "crime"....5 years in jail for making a wager on a horse race.


Isn't there something in the U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights about being protected from "cruel and unusual punishment"?

[GMB@BP]

Isn't there something in the U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights about being protected from "cruel and unusual punishment"?

That was my feeling, and honestly its somthing to consider, of course you can only fight that after being convicted, no thanks.

[betovernetcapper]

(senior moment)

There are a lot of seniors in Arizona and I don't mean to be ageist here but as you get older, moving around is harder. There have got to seniors that live to click on Bris or YouBET in the morning. Some guy works his entire life and finally
scraps enough money together to survive his remaining few years, and they threaten him with prison for making a $2 bet at home as opposed to their track.

If anyone knows anyone at AARP or the Senior's lobby in Arizona, please give them a call.

[dutchboy]

dns az trks

[Turntime]

You've got it right, GMB@BP. I have the feeling that it would be difficult to prosecute based on the "cruel and unusual punishment" angle, but who wants to be the guinea pig?

[rrbauer]

Count me in. Arizona took a big step backward with the passage of this bill. I also believe it may be unlawful based on the following:

1. Many of the ADW’s offer incentives to wager in the form of gifts or cash rebates. HB 2964 forces AZ residents to effectively pay a higher price for the same product.

3. Forcing AZ residents to wager at brick and mortar facilities eliminates the technological benefits and advances that online wagering provides.

TH
Phoenix, AZ

As #1 indicates, the players who bet on Arizona tracks from other states get the benefit of reduced takeout (a definite necessity in that state) from rebating ADW's while the AZ residents get to pay full price.

And the AZ residents enjoy the added expense in money and time to travel to a track or simulcast facility to play the horses when the same amount of money (arguably more) could've gone into the pools conveniently and efficiently with the click of a mouse button at their house (as it happens with out-of-state horseplayers).

AZ residents get to pony up $3 a gallon for gas plus the other travel expenses, pay whatever it costs to park and gain admission, deal with the
teller and tote situation at that facility and look forward to the drive home in rush-hour traffic while the out-of-state horseplayer gets to start Miller-time on time!

[Master Shake]

Anyone else find it amusingly ironic that the University of Arizona has a "Race Track Management" program?

[tulsated]

Big Government little minds a formula for a disaster, I boycott any thing from Arizona from there A to there Z :ThmbDown:

[swetyejohn]

You've got it right, GMB@BP. I have the feeling that it would be difficult to prosecute based on the "cruel and unusual punishment" angle, but who wants to be the guinea pig?

They're probably not interested in prosecuting players. They're probably interested in prosecuting companies who sign up AZ residents.

I mean really, how are they ever going to find out someone from AZ is betting online -- except through a tax return or whistleblower.

I'd recommend finding a friend or family member who will open an account for you out-of-state. If you happen to hit a big one, give your friend or family member more than enough money to pay the taxes.

I suppose if you are a part-time resident of another state you might be able to register in that state.

If no one beats me to it, I'll see if I can get my artist friend to design a t-shirt: "Arizona -- The Nanny State"

[prospector]

I can't put into words my anger, resentment and disappointment in the actions of my elected officials.

It was already illegal to bet online any race that took place inside the states boundaries, now they have made it illegal to bet on races outside the states boundaries.

All this is intended to increase the sales of admission, hot dogs and beer at the track, not to mention the small increase in profit buy eliminating the ADW's.

Since very few people can walk to the track this would increase the consumption of oil by driving and revenue of mass transit.

All this does is eliminate us senior citizens on fixed incomes and limited physical mobility and puts barriers in the way to attract new and younger computer literate horseplayers.

Saturday I signed a contract to sell my home at a loss and am going to another state this week to find a place to buy in a more friendly environment.

My name address and number and voting district is available on request.

Froggy





froggy, next year i may have been the one buying your house..bullhead city is the perfect city for me...its 75 miles from dolan city, where i go gold prospecting and across the river from my favorite city, laughlin, nv...
this was to be my last winter in the midwest..
i planned to buy a winter home there...thanks Arizona! now i'll buy a rv and spend winters parked in laughlin..
jerks....:mad:

[BillW]

.thanks Arizona! now i'll buy a rv and spend winters parked in laughlin..
jerks....:mad:

Aren't ADW's illegal in NV also?

[DeanT]

I often bet TUP in the winter time here, because it is minus 8 gazillion and things looked so nice out that way.

Not this year tho. This is a terrible piece of legislation for the "land of the free".

Add me to the list please.

[swetyejohn]

Whatever happened to the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

I guess when the nanny says no, that means no.

[ALostTexan]

Update

So far I have a list of 66 names, which is an exact even split 33-33 from Pace Advantage and DerbyTrail, to take to the AZHBPA next week. In speaking with the head of the group, I really think he underestimated how powerful the online group could be, so I simply want to show him the list and the comments posted by everyone on here.

If you have anything at all to say to the horsemen or anyone else in Arizona regarding this law, please post in the thread. I think we can make a statement with our words and apparantely our wallets on this new law.

Thanks to everyone who has shown support on this.

ALostTexan

[ezrabrooks]

They're probably not interested in prosecuting players. They're probably interested in prosecuting companies who sign up AZ residents.

I mean really, how are they ever going to find out someone from AZ is betting online -- except through a tax return or whistleblower.

I'd recommend finding a friend or family member who will open an account for you out-of-state. If you happen to hit a big one, give your friend or family member more than enough money to pay the taxes.

I suppose if you are a part-time resident of another state you might be able to register in that state.

If no one beats me to it, I'll see if I can get my artist friend to design a t-shirt: "Arizona -- The Nanny State"

How to find out if a ADW is taking bets from a State where account wagering is illegal? Put a little legal pressure on them, and they would give their players up..and then, fall back on their Terms of Service Agreement (who knows what problems for the player that would bring on). ADW's are in business to garner handle, not to be saviors to the business.

Ez

[prospector]

Aren't ADW's illegal in NV also?
yes, but i'm not from nevada...so i can still hook up and get whatever info i want and either bet in the casinos for comps and cash (riverside lets you use your slot card in the racebook and cashes back for cash or meals) or on days i go prospecting i can bet on line...best of both worlds..

[Trijack]

Put me on the list.
Jack K
San Juan Capistrano, Ca

[stacystark]

There's right and there's right and never the twain shall meet. Hi!

[rrbauer]

Update

So far I have a list of 66 names, which is an exact even split 33-33 from Pace Advantage and DerbyTrail, to take to the AZHBPA next week. In speaking with the head of the group, I really think he underestimated how powerful the online group could be, so I simply want to show him the list and the comments posted by everyone on here.

If you have anything at all to say to the horsemen or anyone else in Arizona regarding this law, please post in the thread. I think we can make a statement with our words and apparantely our wallets on this new law.

Thanks to everyone who has shown support on this.

ALostTexan

Turf Paradise opens next Friday, October 5. A great meet to thumb our collective noses at. Frankly, I can't imagine any horseplayer, any where supporting Arizona racing (onsite or offsite) at this juncture. You tell the guy that you're meeting with that nothing short of repeal and an apology will get this situation turned around.

[GMB@BP]

Did anyone read the Blood Horse article?? Arizona definately wont be the last state to go this route.

[GMB@BP]

The bottom line is Arizona is just taking advantage of the weak system that has been negotiated by the horse racing industry. This easily could be rectified at the national level.

[whipsaw]

add two more to the list

Dale P., Janet M.
Tucson

[rrbauer]

Did anyone read the Blood Horse article?? Arizona definately wont be the last state to go this route.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40980

I didn't see any other state mentioned except those that already have ADW agreements with the tracks and horsemen. What do you know that I don't know?

[swetyejohn]

...Fozzard said. “There’s an 800-pound gorilla in Arizona--the Indian tribes--whose interests the legislature will protect. We had absolutely zero hope of passing the ADW bill. What can’t happen is where (ADW companies accept wagers) but aren’t allowed to pay us.”

I am sure the Indian tribes have a lot of say. And I'm sure Senator Kyle is protecting the Indians.

If Arizona tracks spent as much money on lobbying as Indian casino do, then I'm sure Kyle would change his tune.

It's all about the Benjamins.

Same old horse shit.

[BillW]

I am sure the Indian tribes have a lot of say. And I'm sure Senator Kyle is protecting the Indians.

If Arizona tracks spent as much money on lobbying as Indian casino do, then I'm sure Kyle would change his tune.

It's all about the Benjamins.

Same old horse shit.

This is a state law. Kyl is a US senator. Two different things.

[swetyejohn]

Thanks for pointing that out.

Do you think Kyle is involved with this at all?

Do you think the Indians lobby state politicians?

[rrbauer]

Here are the sponsors of the legislation HB 2694
Rep Lucy Mason (R), Dist 1
Rep Andrew Tobin (R), Dist 1
Rep Michele Reagan (R), Dist 8
Rep Jerry Weiers (R), Dist 12
Rep Bill Konopnicki (R), Dist 5
Rep John McComish (R), Dist 20
Sen Tom O'Halleran (R), Dist 1
Sen Robert Blendu (R), Dist 12

Here is a complete list of the legislature including email addresses and phone numbers.
http://www.azleg.gov/MemberRoster.asp?Body=&SortBy=1
If you live in Arizona these are the people that the track owners, racing associations and horse owners have in their pockets. These are the people that made this happen purely to satisfy some very narrow special interests. And, these are the people that have to be turned around if you are going to change the situation. Those of us that live outside Arizona can refuse to bet on Arizona tracks, but we have no power there at the ballot box.

[swetyejohn]

Thanks RR.

Is anyone writing letters to the editor of various AZ newspapers voicing their opinion?

[ALostTexan]

Don't worry. Those letters are on their way. I am gathering info right now, with a great deal of help from an ADW or two, to really go all-out on this. This isn't just a bitch-fest, this is a battle we are fighting...

[whipsaw]

thanks, ALostTexan

[ALostTexan]

I appreciate the interest and help from everyone involved in this. I still have plans to meet with the horsemens group in Arizona next week to discuss what has transpired since the enactment of the new law, and explain the outrage of the horseplayers across the country, and that the horsemen will be the ones to lose in the end.

Again, any input is appreciated, as this is a great chance to have your voice heard in Arizona and for any future legislation such as this.

ALostTexan

[Imriledup]

Texan,

Applaud your efforts to fight this pretty insane new 'law'. I will be boycotting Arizona racing from now on and will let everyone i know not to patronize anything from Az. Good Luck!

[Hammerhead]

Personally being able to come and go and have only myself and the boys to please. I will diffently not wager a meager dime on a AZ track. Hope you folks make progress with this idiotic child like drivil. Holyer then thou's seem to be in charge. Getum!

[Spiderman]

Boycott, not only the racetracks, but all intended business in Arizona.


email available on request.

[ALostTexan]

I honestly wouldn't be as pissed if there was a decent OTB situation in the state, but right now it sucks. We have simulcasting back in the Tucson area, but I have heard that it still sucks. Races 2-5 here, races 1-6 there, races 3-7 at the other place, a bunch of crap like that.

The system in Arizona is not completely broken, but badly damaged, and needs to be fixed, and I don't feel that the tracks here are making an honest effort to fix it. I also don't know that they are really concerned with the horseplayers, who, oh yeah, pay the bills for racing...

[DarrenClarke]

Count me in. There are plenty of other signals to play. Also, no more golf trips to AZ. I will also do everything I can to encourage other players not to wager on races from TUP. Mike H

[trying2win]

Has anyone sent an email of protest to the management of Turf Paradise, telling them that you won't be betting on their race meet starting Fri. Oct. 5/07, because of this ridiculous new state law there regarding ADWS? I won't be betting Turf Paradise until this Arizona ADW situation is resolved.


T2W

[TomC]

They got an e-mail, from me. I hope many of you go to TurfParadise.com and send them an e-mail too. Be clear and to the point. Serious players will not be wagering TUP races until this is over-turned.

[trying2win]

I just sent an email to Turf Paradise to tell them I won't be betting their track, until that outrageous, Arizona anti-ADW bill is repealed. Who else is going to take a stand and speak out to the management at Turf Paradise?


T2W

~“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
- Edmund Burke

[alydar]

Between their ridiculous takeout and their stand on ADW's I do not why anyone should consider playing their races.

[shanta]

I just sent an email to Turf Paradise to tell them I won't be betting their track, until that outrageous, Arizona anti-ADW bill is repealed. Who else is going to take a stand and speak out to the management at Turf Paradise?

T2W
~“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
- Edmund Burke

Just emailed them T2W.

[shanta]

also posted the Tup email addy on my bud's site and asked for help with this. That should hopefully throw another 75-100 emails at them man.
ok

[rrbauer]

email address:

tp@turfparadise.net

[shanta]

Just emailed them T2W.

Just received this reply to my rather harsh email. I also noticed that this reply and my original email were "carbon copied" to the heads of the track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Richard,

We are sorry you feel that way. Regarding the legislation, we agree with you. I would like to point out some things and hopefully change your opinion of our racetrack. First, we tried to get account wagering approved in the state but couldn’t even get the Bill heard in the legislature because of the Indian tribes. The legislature feared that it was an expansion of gambling and would trigger the poison pill which would allow the tribes unlimited gaming. Also, we tried working with the account wagering companies. When that happened the state stepped in and wouldn’t allow us. They even threatened to take our license away if we did. Before HB 2694 ADW companies were costing Arizona racetracks millions of dollars and the horsemen and dogmen as well because they were coming in and taking wagers without having any responsibility to the industry like they do in every other state. We have a responsibility to make this track better and improve racing in this state. That is hard to do when you are watching millions of wagering dollars sucked out of the state and all you can do is stand by and watch it happen. We have no problem with ADW’s, all we’re asking for is to allow us to benefit from it like every other racetrack does in the US. We tried to make it legal we tried to participate in it but were forbidden.

With that said let me tell you what we believe will happen. With the passing HB 2694 we are moving forward. The law will be challenged by the ADW companies and if they win (which is highly likely) the state will be forced to make it legal. Then account wagering will be allowed to come back in and we will all benefit. How long that takes I am not sure but we are looking forward to the day it happens.

Feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss this over the phone.

Sincerely,

Dave Johnson



David Johnson
Vice President\ Assistant General Manager
Turf Paradise
1501 W. Bell Road
Phoenix, AZ 85023
602-375-6431
djohnson@turfparadise.net

[trying2win]

Richie:

That's the same reply I got too from Turf Paradse.


Thanks,

T2W

[csmith]

Has anyone sent an email of protest to the management of Turf Paradise, telling them that you won't be betting on their race meet starting Fri. Oct. 5/07, because of this ridiculous new state law there regarding ADWS? I won't be betting Turf Paradise until this Arizona ADW situation is resolved.


T2W

Yes, I did

[csmith]

Just received this reply to my rather harsh email. I also noticed that this reply and my original email were "carbon copied" to the heads of the track.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Richard,

We are sorry you feel that way. Regarding the legislation, we agree with you. I would like to point out some things and hopefully change your opinion of our racetrack. First, we tried to get account wagering approved in the state but couldn’t even get the Bill heard in the legislature because of the Indian tribes. The legislature feared that it was an expansion of gambling and would trigger the poison pill which would allow the tribes unlimited gaming. Also, we tried working with the account wagering companies. When that happened the state stepped in and wouldn’t allow us. They even threatened to take our license away if we did. Before HB 2694 ADW companies were costing Arizona racetracks millions of dollars and the horsemen and dogmen as well because they were coming in and taking wagers without having any responsibility to the industry like they do in every other state. We have a responsibility to make this track better and improve racing in this state. That is hard to do when you are watching millions of wagering dollars sucked out of the state and all you can do is stand by and watch it happen. We have no problem with ADW’s, all we’re asking for is to allow us to benefit from it like every other racetrack does in the US. We tried to make it legal we tried to participate in it but were forbidden.

With that said let me tell you what we believe will happen. With the passing HB 2694 we are moving forward. The law will be challenged by the ADW companies and if they win (which is highly likely) the state will be forced to make it legal. Then account wagering will be allowed to come back in and we will all benefit. How long that takes I am not sure but we are looking forward to the day it happens.

Feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss this over the phone.

Sincerely,

Dave Johnson



David Johnson
Vice President\ Assistant General Manager
Turf Paradise
1501 W. Bell Road
Phoenix, AZ 85023
602-375-6431
djohnson@turfparadise.net


I also got the same exact response to the e-mail I sent to them

[trying2win]

Richie:

I just reread that Turf Paradise reply email that you and I both received. It seems to have some contradictions in it. First they say negative comments about ADWS...then they say positive things about them. Makes it difficult for me to gauge where Turf Paradise stands on the issue of ADWS, with that kind of bafflegab.

By the way, in my email to Turf Paradise I also criitcized their track for the outrageous 20 % takeout on STRAIGHT BETS, and suggested that they lower it. They didn't make any comment on that in their return email.


T2W

[shanta]

Richie:

I just reread that Turf Paradise reply email that you and I both received. It seems to have some contradictions in it. First they say negative comments about ADWS...then they say positive things about them. Makes it difficult for me to gauge where Turf Paradise stands on the issue of ADWS, with that kind of bafflegab.

By the way, in my email to Turf Paradise I also criitcized their track for the outrageous 20 % takeout on STRAIGHT BETS, and suggested that they lower it. They didn't make any comment on that in their return email.


T2W

I did the same thing T2W regarding the high takeout. As you see they also chose to ignore that part.

FWIW several members on my buddies site have emailed and gotten the EXACT reply so we are being "form lettered". Imagine that man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Gledda,

We are sorry you feel that way. Regarding the legislation, we agree with you. I would like to point out some things and hopefully change your opinion of our racetrack. First, we tried to get account wagering approved in the state but couldn’t even get the Bill heard in the legislature because of the Indian tribes. The legislature feared that it was an expansion of gambling and would trigger the poison pill which would allow the tribes unlimited gaming. Also, we tried working with the account wagering companies. When that happened the state stepped in and wouldn’t allow us. They even threatened to take our license away if we did. Before HB 2694 ADW companies were costing Arizona racetracks millions of dollars and the horsemen and dogmen as well because they were coming in and taking wagers without having any responsibility to the industry like they do in every other state. We have a responsibility to make this track better and improve racing in this state. That is hard to do when you are watching millions of wagering dollars sucked out of the state and all you can do is stand by and watch it happen. We have no problem with ADW’s, all we’re asking for is to allow us to benefit from it like every other racetrack does in the US. We tried to make it legal we tried to participate in it but were forbidden.

With that said let me tell you what we believe will happen. With the passing HB 2694 we are moving forward. The law will be challenged by the ADW companies and if they win (which is highly likely) the state will be forced to make it legal. Then account wagering will be allowed to come back in and we will all benefit. How long that takes I am not sure but we are looking forward to the day it happens.

Feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss this over the phone.

Sincerely,

Dave Johnson



David Johnson
Vice President\ Assistant General Manager
Turf Paradise
1501 W. Bell Road
Phoenix, AZ 85023
602-375-6431
djohnson@turfparadise.net

[NoCal Boy]

I think the AZ tracks strongly want (and need) ADW handle, but they also want to receive some source market fees as well. Apparently Arizona tracks did not receive any source market fees from wagers made in-state through the ADW's. Of course, they did receive a 3% host fee (more or less) from each ADW dollar wagered into their tracks. I guess it is okay for Turf Paradise to receive ADW handle from CA, NY, etc., but not allow their own residents to use ADW!! Ridiculous.

I can easily envision someone from AZ hooking up with some reliable and trusted friend/relative in another state, and simply having that person place wagers for him. An Arizona resident can still access the websites of each ADW, but can not wager. A simple phone call or e-mail to an out of state accountholder is all it takes to get a wager in.

[betovernetcapper]

That is hard to do when you are watching millions of wagering dollars sucked out of the state and all you can do is stand by and watch it happen. We have no problem with ADW’s, all we’re asking for is to allow us to benefit from it like every other racetrack does in the US.


If someone wants to bet TUP through an ADW, like PTC or You BET, the ADW pays TUP around 5%. This is a fabulous deal for TUP. It's free money. Think about it, you don't have to provide any security, washrooms, electricity, seats, heat or air conditioning. Just shut up and take the 5%.

If you live in Arizona however, 5% is not enough, they want 20% and somehow because you reside there they are also owed a percentage of what you bet elsewhere. Not only that, but you can't do it from the convenience of your home , you have to go to them. If you live in Tucson and want to bet Saratoga over the Internet why do you owe TUP anything?

[swetyejohn]

If TUP could generate $100 million in tax revenue per year for the state they would have a lot more clout.

But it's the Indian casino money that is doing all the talking.

The politicians say they fear an expansion of gambling.

Fearful of expansion of gambling my ass.

It's all about the money.

If you pay enough money you can expand your gambling empire all you want.

Ask the Connecticut legislature how they feel about expansion of gambling now that they've got the largest casino in the Northern Hemisphere filling the state coffers. Same scenario as AZ. Indians can take in billions in bets at their casinos and I can't even bet a horse race online because our legislature fears expansion of gambling, too.

If every horse player in CT was able to bet online their total handle generated would not be 1/1,000,000 of Foxwood and Mohegan Sun's daily handle.

And the states of CT and AZ fear that allowing horse players to legally bet online will expand gambling. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL :lol: :D lol: :lol: :D :lol:

Do any elected officials understand basic math?

[TomC]

Shanta:
And here I was, thinking TUP took time to send me a personal response to my e-mail! I got the exact same e-mail. They must just be copying and pasting it to everyone. Hopefully they are being sincere.
Maybe we can offer the Indians some more beads for their casinos.
Tom

[rrbauer]

I got the same response that everyone else is getting. Pissing on the ADW's and Horseplayers with threats of felony prosecution is really the way to get support for your position. How stupid are these people?

[shanta]

Followup letter from Mr. Johnson after a return letter from me. He has been made aware of this site/area and of the growing nationwide disgust with what is going on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Richard,

I understand that our takeout is high but what does that have to do with the ADW’s? They are the ones that keep it not Turf Paradise. All they do is give us a small return anywhere from 3% - 4.5% (which is split with the horsemen) on wagers placed on Turf Paradise races only, not the 20% -25% that we would get if the person wagered here at the track which we then split with our horsemen. On top of that we get nothing if the person wagers on a different track where as we would normally be getting around 15% which is also split with the Horsemen.

I do not deny that Turf Paradise helped push the legislation through. All of the racetracks in Arizona did. All I am asking you to do is understand why. It is no exaggeration that it is costing the Arizona Racing Industry millions of dollars. In any other state, if Youbet or TVG or any of the other ADW’s take a wager from a patron in the vicinity of their track (whether it be on their track or any other track) that ADW pays them what is called a source market fee. In Arizona, since it is illegal, we are not allowed to accept that fee. When we tried to work with the ADW’s to find a way around it we were told that we could lose our license if we did because we would be participating in an illegal act. Something had to be done. We then tried to legalize it. That project went up in flames almost as soon as it was thought up. What other course of action would you suggest? This is the best alternative. This will force the state to have to decide whether or not it is legal, and as I said before they will probably lose, then we will be able to get past this and everyone becomes a winner. But how can you expect us to just stand by and watch money leave the state that should be helping this industry.

Last, if I offended you by sending you the same letter that I sent most everyone else then I apologize. But I replied to the first e-mail I had and since almost all the other complaints were the same I sent the same letter because it addressed all the issues.

Again, I invite you to call me personally if you want.

Sincerely,

Dave Johnson


David Johnson
Vice President\ Assistant General Manager
Turf Paradise
1501 W. Bell Road
Phoenix, AZ 85023
602-375-6431
djohnson@turfparadise.net

[betovernetcapper]

All they do is give us a small return anywhere from 3% - 4.5% (which is split with the horsemen) on wagers placed on Turf Paradise races only, not the 20% -25% that we would get if the person wagered here at the track which we then split with our horsemen. On top of that we get nothing if the person wagers on a different track where as we would normally be getting around 15% which is also split with the Horsemen.



What is amazing is this guy says this stuff openly-without the slightest embarrassment. Somehow if a person lives in the state of Arizona and chooses to make a bet on Keeneland, Turf Paradise is entitled to 15% of his action. Turf Paradise is entitled to the 15% even if the bet is made on YouBet or PTC. They are entitled to it even though, they don't provide the website for Keeneland-pay for the signal-run the races-hot walk the horses after the race-or have even the remotest connection to the person placing the bet or the event. None-zip-nada. They deserve to be paid the same zero-zip-nada.

Today TUP had an attendance of 2596 and they bet $142,008 or an average of about $55 each.

Today TUP took in $829,949 in simulcast wagers from other states.

To be consistent Turf Paradise should withdraw its signal from the rest of the nation and live on the on track handle.

[prospector]

To be consistent Turf Paradise should withdraw its signal from the rest of the nation and live on the on track handle.
well said...they won't get any money from me till this is fixed..

[rrbauer]

Hey Tex,
Did we have the big meeting with the Arizona guy?

[bob77713]

TUP just doesn't get it. I don't think they realize how much they disrupted my lifestyle. But they don't care, they have a history of pissing people off.

They wouldn't work with the Indian casinos. FT Mcdowell casinso had a million dollar racebook that was taking their signal. Harrahs AK-Chin had a brand new racebook ready to open, but TUP didn't want to pay them 4%. They wanted them to be an OTB like the sports bars in the state, just taking their signal for free for the additional foot trafic. When they got word that the tribes were negotiating a deal with a Nevada signal co. for 4%, they passed a law that no establishment can accept siganals whithin 55 miles of TUP. So the casinos closed the racebooks and added more slots.

I only have one thing to say to Jerry Simms, "What goes around, comes around". When you want us to vote for slots at Turf, I'm voting 'no', and asking everyone that I know, to do so also.

What we need to do is stop wasting time send emails to Dave Jonson at TUP, and start an email campaign to the ADW's like Youbet and TVG, asking them to remove TUP from their available tracks for the entire U.S.

There is no way this isssue is going to be resolved soon. In the meeting meetings from the 2004 AZ racing commision, Turf's management expressed concerns regarding ADW's. IF it took them 3 years to get this bill passed, I'm sure it will take them just as long to get it resolved.

:mad: :bang: :ThmbDown:

[betovernetcapper]

What we need to do is stop wasting time send emails to Dave Jonson at TUP, and start an email campaign to the ADW's like Youbet and TVG, asking them to remove TUP from their available tracks for the entire U.S.


:mad: :bang: :ThmbDown:

That sir is a brilliant idea-to piggy back on that thought does anyone know what section of the country the bulk of TUP simulcast money comes from?

[rrbauer]

I own the domain www.boycott-az-racing.com

It's baseball playoffs, college football and Keeneland but I can have something up next week.

What do you want this site to be?

If someone wants to orchestrate this let me know because I can just be the "web master" and manage the site and you can manage the content.

Three kinds of people in this world:
1. Those that make things happen.
2. Those that watch things happen.
3. Those that scratch their heads and say, "What happened"/

Where do you fit?????

[betovernetcapper]

Richard-that is awesome.

[shanta]

Just got off the phone with someone I know at Brisbet. Bottom line is since Churchill took it over THEY are the ones calling the shots at Brisbet.

The C.E.O. of Churchill Downs is Bob Evans and his email is
askbob@kyderby.com

I am going to begin emailing him to remove Tup from their wagering calendar in lieu of issues in Arizona. I will also spread the word on my bud's site which numbers 400+ members.

askbob@kyderby.com

[shanta]

copy of my post over at my friend's racing website. I am also going to private message the entire board to reach those that might not tune in on a regular basis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put pressure on Arizona tracks
I am helping a push to have Adw's like Brisbet remove Turf Paradise from their wagering menu in lieu of Tup's effort in pushing through the bill banning internet wagering in Arizona.

Brisbet is controlled now by Churchill Downs. They call the shots.

The CEO of Churchill Downs Inc is Bob Evans. His email is
askbob@kyderby.com

I am going to begin emailing him asking to remove Tup from the Brisbet wagering calendar until the law in Arizona is repealed.Turf Paradise WAS instrumental in pushing the bill through. I was told this by a top dog at Tup so we are dealing in facts and not speculation.

I ask you to consider doing the same to help restore online betting in Arizona. Other states could follow man. We NEED to shut this thing down

Thank you for your consideration
askbob@kyderby.com

[betovernetcapper]

Shanta-music to my ears-YES

[shanta]

It was also brought to my attention by Jim G that there may be contracts existing with Arizona horsemen and Brisbet that would make removal an impossibility. Jim is sharp.

I am going to call and speak with Mr. Evans and see if he will lay some things out for me which i can report back on here ok? This will be done early next week.

While I have him on the line I will bring up some other things too :)

going racing now
Richie

[JimG]

Set a picket line up outside of TUP on opening day. That will grab some headlines and shed some light on the stupid bill. The horse player's of AZ should be livid, so finding some volunteers should not be hard.

[rrbauer]

Set a picket line up outside of TUP on opening day. That will grab some headlines and shed some light on the stupid bill. The horse player's of AZ should be livid, so finding some volunteers should not be hard.

TUP opened yesterday.

[shanta]

This from a good friend "Socantra":

From the Bloodhorse 9/27;

"Many representatives of the Arizona horse racing industry offered their support for HB2694 during a Feb. 15 state Committee on Water and Agriculture meeting. Among the supporters were representatives of Turf Paradise, Yavapai Downs, the Yavapai Downs County Fair Association, the Arizona Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, and the Arizona Thoroughbred Breeders Association."

Personally, my first action will be to place no bets at Turf Paradise or Yavapai Downs til they get this straightened out. I encourage others to do the same. I also intend to notify possibly interested parties in Arizona of my personal decision. I'll see if I can dig up some contact addresses and update this in a while.

Dick

[JimG]

TUP opened yesterday.

Oops, I never bet the track anyhow. I should have looked closer.:blush:

I still think an on-track boycott by Az bettors would be a good way to get their attention.

[betovernetcapper]

Shanta, even if they are bound by contract to sell the signal, the contract probably doesn't mandate they have to book every type of bet. They might be able to meet their obligation by just booking the show pools. :)

[shanta]

This list of contacts in Arizona courtesy of "Socantra" on my buddies site. We need to hammer these people with calls and emails voicing displeasure.
Thanks Dick :ThmbUp:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's some further contact information:

Turf Paradise
1501 Bell Rd.
Phoenix, AZ 85023
tp@turfparadise.net

Jerry Simms - owner
Eugene Joyce - General Manager
Dave Johnson - Vice Pres. & Assist. Gen Mgr.

------------
Yavapai Downs
Yavapai County Fairgrounds

Facility Address:
10401 Highway 89A
Prescott Valley, AZ 86314

Mailing Address:
P.O. Box 26557
Prescott Valley, AZ 86312

CORPORATE INFORMATION


Board of Directors

Tom Oppelt President
Kathleen Finayson Vice President
Jim Grundy General Manager (928)775-8000

If you have any questions contact the
Yavapai Downs Racing Office at
(928) 775-8071
or email at
raceoffice@cableone.net

----------------------

Arizona Thoroughbred Breeders Association
P.O Box 41774, Phoenix, Arizona 85050-1774
(602) 942-1310 Fax: (602) 942-8225

atba@worldnet.att.net

Mike Lester - President
Gene Fleming - Vice President
Peggy Hopwood - Secretary/Treasurer

------------------------

Arizona Horseman's Benevolent and Protective Association

President: Michael Napier
Interim Executive Director: Tom Metzen
Secretary/Treasurer: Sarah Struck

Owner Directors
Terri Ferguson
Gary Miller
Linda Parker
Reeves Quinton


Address
P.O. Box 43636
Phoenix, AZ 85080

Phone602) 942-3336
Phone2:877-942-HBPA
Fax602) 866-3790
Email:azhbpa@qwest.net

Owner/Trainer Directors
George Bango, Vice-President
Tom Bartol, Vice-President for Yavapai Downs
Bart Hone
Ray Odom Sr
Larry Wells
Trainer Alternates
Bill Harris
Debi Ferguson

[Kelso]

I
Do any elected officials understand basic math?


Well, they're up on the simple stuff, anyway ... such as:

1(for the party) + 1(for me) = $2(from you before I'll even consider listening to you.)

[trying2win]

Does anyone have the opening two day parimutuel handles for the
start of the 2006 Turf Paradise meet? It would be interesting to compare those with the opening two days this year.

If you go to the DRF site, check out Turf Paradise's ITW and ISW totals for the Oct. 5 and Oct. 6/07 cards. Especially check out the ISW totals.

[shanta]

YES I would like to send Tup file to recycle bin. Will NOT be needing you!

[betovernetcapper]

Saturday TUP had 4548 in attendance and they bet $152,897 or an average of -drum roll please-$34 each. If they lose the out of state simulcast money, they're toast.

[betovernetcapper]

Today they had 2564 guests and they bet $83,511 for an average of $33 each. As I said before, without the simulcast money they are

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/toast3.jpg

[stuball]

Do you see purse cuts coming with this handle? Horsemen should be
irate.....don't ya think....

Stuball :confused:

[rrbauer]

It would be interesting to know how much of the simulcast money is "in state" versus out-of-state.

[trying2win]

It would be interesting to know how much of the simulcast money is "in state" versus out-of-state.

Richard:

One place they list all the Turf Paradise ON TRACK, ITW and ISW parimutuel totals, is at the www.drf.com (http://www.drf.com/) website for each day of racing. It's in the RESULTS section.


T2W

[rrbauer]

Richard:

One place they list all the Turf Paradise ON TRACK, ITW and ISW parimutuel totals, is at the www.drf.com (http://www.drf.com/) website for each day of racing. It's in the RESULTS section.


T2W

So, is ITW the in-state simulcast amount, and ISW the out-of-state simulcast amount? Because, if that is the case, then we're staring up a goat's ass trying to influence Arizona residents....it's the TVG and Youbet and PhoneBet, and track-related simulcasts around the country, yada, yada, that are getting Arizona all of the money. It looks to me like the Arizona residents are speaking loud and clear: Arizona racing SUCKS! That's why they aren't betting on it! Their handle is coming from out of state.

[trying2win]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe ITW is short for INTERTRACK WAGERING...i.e. Wagering between tracks located in the same state. And I believe ISW is short for INTERSTATE WAGERING...i.e. Wagering that takes place at tracks across state lines.


T2W

[betovernetcapper]

Today, Columbus Day, 1203 fans visited TUP and bet $63,380 or an average of $53 each.

Off topic-I'm doing a crossword-does anyone know a five letter word for a piece of sliced bread that has been heated and browned?

[rrbauer]

What happened to the Texan and the meeting with the Arizona rep that was supposed to happen last week?

Uh, these indictments that will shake the world this week....should I stop holding my breath or will they just appear at some random time?

[alydar]

I am anxiously waiting too!!

[ALostTexan]

I spoke with the head of the Arizona HBPA this morning, and I am planning on meeting with him on Monday morning, October 15, to discuss everything. Their office is located at Turf Paradise, so I explained that if anyone from the track wants to attend the meeting then they are more than welcome.

This meeting was delayed because their leadership has been out of the state, and after returning has had a very full schedule, as well as my schedule.

If anyone else from the forum wants to attend the meeting, you are also welcome to attend. I simply want the powers that be in Arizona to understand the full implications of this bill, and how they are only set to lose in the end.

Any additional comments are welcome, and will be relayed to the horsemen in Arizona as well as Turf Paradise.

[betovernetcapper]

ALT, When your speaking with them, could you get them to explain the strategy behind this law because if it's getting people to visit TUP and bet money it's just not quite cutting it.
Today, Tuesday, Tup had 1041 in attendance and they bet $49,817 for a total of $48 each.

[Kelso]

Any additional comments are welcome, and will be relayed to the horsemen in Arizona as well as Turf Paradise.


Since you're meeting with horsmen, you might start them off with "no bettors means no purses." Then just sit back and see if they show any sign at all of understanding the concept.

[Hosshead]

Unless the boycott Az. movement really takes hold outside Az., I don't think they care, as long as they have all the other ADW's taking their action.
They couldn't care less about Ariz. residents.
I know that I won't be sending any Az. tracks ANY of my business.

[chrismc]

The AZ statutes previous to this bill's passage had ADW listed as illegal. This bill just made it a Class 6 Felony.

My background included Management of a Pari-Mutuel facility in AZ and the trials and tribulations of dealing with Turf Paradise regarding ADW.

My previous track opposed a bill floated by Turf PAradise to allow ADW wagering only IF CONDUCTED BY AN OUTSIDE AZ ADW PROVIDER. They wanted this because Youbet had in escrow $1.4 million dollars owed to AZ tracks from source market fees, accumulated over five years.

My track would have liked the four pari-mutuel entities in AZ to conduct or licensed ADW in AZ but the owner of TP refused, so we proposed legislation to stop OUSTISDE VENDORS from CONDUCTING ADW in AZ.

This year, the same proponents asking for ADW wagering (Turf PAradise) got hammered by the state horsmens groups and made it a felony for ADW wagering.

Don't blame the legislators...remember TP had a bill enacted by a legislator from their district. Also many of the AZ State Republicans are Mormon and we used them in 2006 to "Stop" outside the ADW companies monoply by having them vote against the expansion of gambling...this year, 2007, Turf Paradise used the same group to pass this legislation.

BTW...Turf Owner Jerry Simms appears to be selling off land around TP and possibly looking to sell...his application for a Gaming License was denied in late 2006 and his Racing license was questioned...the Department of Gaming asked the Department of Racing to remove his racing license...however snce no one or group could take financial control of TP the D of racing commission allowed him to keep it.

SUMMARY: Don't think legislators are always the cause of retrictive gaming.

I am a proponent of all online wagering and for open content for all ADW's.

[chrismc]

NV does not allow out of state ADW's...The laws of the state specifically make it illegal for a Nevada resident to place a wager outside of the state using the telephone, television, mail, computer or any other similar means. Furthermore, while residents can bet as much as they like within the confines of a casino or licensed establishment, they are guilty of a misdemeanor if they wager among themselves outside of those establishments. The state is also very tough with casinos which try to set up outside of Nevada and take wagers from Americans

Looking at the gambling statutes of Louisiana, one has to wonder if Jon Kyl wrote the laws for the state. The statutes of the state do not prohibit recreational or social gambling with the exception of internet wagering. In fact, gambling by computer was given a special section within the Louisiana statutes under RS 14:90.3. Aside from just mentioning that gambling by computer or accepting wagers on the internet is illegal, the legislators found it necessary to go into a long diatribe as to why the activity is illegal. One can just hear the southern twang and moral chest thumping as this was written:

[ezrabrooks]

NV does not allow out of state ADW's...The laws of the state specifically make it illegal for a Nevada resident to place a wager outside of the state using the telephone, television, mail, computer or any other similar means. Furthermore, while residents can bet as much as they like within the confines of a casino or licensed establishment, they are guilty of a misdemeanor if they wager among themselves outside of those establishments. The state is also very tough with casinos which try to set up outside of Nevada and take wagers from Americans

Looking at the gambling statutes of Louisiana, one has to wonder if Jon Kyl wrote the laws for the state. The statutes of the state do not prohibit recreational or social gambling with the exception of internet wagering. In fact, gambling by computer was given a special section within the Louisiana statutes under RS 14:90.3. Aside from just mentioning that gambling by computer or accepting wagers on the internet is illegal, the legislators found it necessary to go into a long diatribe as to why the activity is illegal. One can just hear the southern twang and moral chest thumping as this was written:

chrismc, do you know how many states have statues against internet wagering..but, have their enforcement agencies just look the other way (like LA, TX and AZ prior to the new statue)?

Ez

[betovernetcapper]

997 on track fans and they wagered $47540 for an average of $48 each.

[rrbauer]

The AZ statutes previous to this bill's passage had ADW listed as illegal. This bill just made it a Class 6 Felony.



Comment: Can you identify the statute referenced or provide a link to it? I would like to read it.



Don't blame the legislators...remember TP had a bill enacted by a legislator from their district. Also many of the AZ State Republicans are Mormon and we used them in 2006 to "Stop" outside the ADW companies monoply by having them vote against the expansion of gambling...this year, 2007, Turf Paradise used the same group to pass this legislation.



Comment: There was more than one legislator (list provided in another post here) from more than one district involved in sponsoring this bill and there was virtually no opposition to the bill. Admittedly, there never seems to be an advocate for horseplayers (or even non-horseplayers) when special interests push their self-serving agendas' into the political arena. However, the facts remain: Legislators crafted, sponsored and voted for this bill. So let the blame start there and if they choose to deflect it to other institutions and individuals then we have a trail to follow. Meanwhile, just say NO to Arizona racing.

[prospector]

anybody in arizona belong to aarp? or is a disabled vet?

there's where to do effective complaining..

[betovernetcapper]

Prospector-funny you mention that-There is a member of this board that has all those qualities. I spoke with him last night and he has agreed to file a complaint re age discrimination.

This is a letter that has just been sent to the AARP's legal dept'
******************************************************

Recently the state of Arizona passed HB 2694 which makes legal Internet horse race betting with services like YouBet-Bris-PTC a felony. Horse & dog racing is still legal in Arizona at tracks like Turf Paradise or OTBs. Industry representatives have bragged that they will force people to bet at their sites.The racing industry actively solicits Internet bets from players in other states.
This bill places an unfair burden on seniors in that they must travel great distances, pay additional expenses (sometimes from a fixed income), an spend time in smoke filled environments that cannot help their physical condition.
An AARP member, 69 years young and a retired Air Force officer seeks your assistance in filling a protest with the Federal government regarding this injustice.
BTW this big time gambler and potential felon was betting $2 on selected races, sometimes betting as much as $12 a day.
thank you,

*********************************************************
There are a couple of different ways this can be filed.

[swetyejohn]

That is an excellent point. Funny how the disabled, the elderly, etc. are neglected.

[GMB@BP]

Prospector-funny you mention that-There is a member of this board that has all those qualities. I spoke with him last night and he has agreed to file a complaint re age discrimination.

This is a letter that has just been sent to the AARP's legal dept'
******************************************************

Recently the state of Arizona passed HB 2694 which makes legal Internet horse race betting with services like YouBet-Bris-PTC a felony. Horse & dog racing is still legal in Arizona at tracks like Turf Paradise or OTBs. Industry representatives have bragged that they will force people to bet at their sites.The racing industry actively solicits Internet bets from players in other states.
This bill places an unfair burden on seniors in that they must travel great distances, pay additional expenses (sometimes from a fixed income), an spend time in smoke filled environments that cannot help their physical condition.
An AARP member, 69 years young and a retired Air Force officer seeks your assistance in filling a protest with the Federal government regarding this injustice.
BTW this big time gambler and potential felon was betting $2 on selected races, sometimes betting as much as $12 a day.
thank you,

*********************************************************
There are a couple of different ways this can be filed.

you know, if turf paradise wants to make my life miserable I am sure I can help them out and return the favor, I should take a trip over there, and being an expert in the laws of the Americans with Disabilities Act I bet their 50 year old facility may have some not so minor violations.

Though I am not sure how much anyone wants to mess with Jerry Simms and his "family" if you know what I mean.

[Indulto]

Prospector-funny you mention that-There is a member of this board that has all those qualities. I spoke with him last night and he has agreed to file a complaint re age discrimination.

This is a letter that has just been sent to the AARP's legal dept'
******************************************************

Recently the state of Arizona passed HB 2694 which makes legal Internet horse race betting with services like YouBet-Bris-PTC a felony. Horse & dog racing is still legal in Arizona at tracks like Turf Paradise or OTBs. Industry representatives have bragged that they will force people to bet at their sites.The racing industry actively solicits Internet bets from players in other states.
This bill places an unfair burden on seniors in that they must travel great distances, pay additional expenses (sometimes from a fixed income), an spend time in smoke filled environments that cannot help their physical condition.
An AARP member, 69 years young and a retired Air Force officer seeks your assistance in filling a protest with the Federal government regarding this injustice.
BTW this big time gambler and potential felon was betting $2 on selected races, sometimes betting as much as $12 a day.
thank you,

*********************************************************
There are a couple of different ways this can be filed.BONC,
Thanks for sharing this ... Prospector, also, for your input. I often wonder how severely my enjoyment of horseplaying will be impacted when I am no longer able to drive as opposed to merely being daunted by traffic.

Of course any arguments in favor of helping the disabled will surely be countered by claims of expanding gambling and enabling misdirection of public assistance. :bang:

[betovernetcapper]

Though I am not sure how much anyone wants to mess with Jerry Simms and his "family" if you know what I mean.

Is this the Jerry Simms your talking about?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0924simms0924.html

[ALostTexan]

Update on Arizona HB 2694

Tomorrow morning (Monday October 16), I will be making the trip to Phoenix to meet with the head of the Arizona HBPA to share with him the names of the online horseplayers who are upset with the new law, and a number of the comments by the members of DerbyTrail.com and PaceAdvantage.com that have spoken out about this law. I have 95 names of people who have commented about the new law, and I will be emphasizing the potential and probable impact that this will have on the horsemen of Arizona. I show that the online community is serious about uniting against a wrong.

I appreciate all of the input from everyone on here, and will post updates tomorrow.

[trying2win]

To A Lost Texan:

Thank you for your efforts. :ThmbUp:


T2W

[betovernetcapper]

Checked out the Boycott Arizona site today and found



Retired Cancer Victim Denied Favorite Activity

Mike D. who lives in Arizona had looked forward to his retirement and enjoying his occasional $2 bet on the horse races. Mike, a former Air Force NCO, had an account with a legal Advance-Deposit-Wagering (ADW) firm that enabled him to enjoy the races and place an occasional $2 bet over the Internet. Now that HB 2694 has been enacted, Mike's ADW account was closed because the bill made it a felony for the ADW firm to take bets from anyone within the state. Indeed, if Mike was able to place a bet on the Internet that too would be a felony.

Mike suffers from cancer, lives on a fixed income and finds it difficult and expensive to travel the distances required; and, to gain admission to a racetrack in order to pursue what he used to enjoy from his home and that required no travel or other expense other than his occasional $2 wager. Mike is an AARP member and hopes that other seniors caught in this same mean-spirited trap will join him in boycotting all Arizona racing until such time that the HB 2694 is repealed.

One of the ironies of this debacle is that while Arizona denies its own citizens the privilege of enjoying and betting on horse (and dog) racing via the Internet, the Arizona racing industry actively solicits bets via ADW providers from citizens of other states.

[Premier Turf Club]

As soon as the rules are changed, we would be happy to open up an account for Mike and give him a $100 wagering voucher free to seed his account.

Please keep me posted on your efforts.

Ian

[boomman]

As soon as the rules are changed, we would be happy to open up an account for Mike and give him a $100 wagering voucher free to seed his account.

Please keep me posted on your efforts.

Ian

Just another classy offer from a man I'm proud to call a friend: Ian Meyers
By the way if Mike D. needs some reading material, let him know that Boomer will throw in a couple of complimentary copies of his handicapping and wagering guides "into the kitty"!

All the best!

Boomer

[ALostTexan]

Update


This morning I made the trip up to Phoenix to meet with the Interim Executive Director of the Arizona Horsemen's Benevolent Protection Agency, Tom Metzen, and with Eugene Joyce, General Manage of Turf Paradise. I walked away from the meeting with as much confusion and more frustration as I entered.

Presentation------------------------------------------------------------
To begin, I copied the Jon Forbes article from The Bloodhorse (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40980), and explained that regardless if these men were interested or not the rest of the industry is listening to members of the online forums, which didn't seem interest either of them. I then presented each with the list of 95 members of DerbyTrail.com and PaceAdvantage.com that have shown displeasure with the new law. After I tried to explain on somewhat deaf ears how many people across the country are unhappy with Arizona racing, I showed them 5 pages of comments left by everyone on the forums, pointing out how many were totally through with Arizona racing. Finally I showed them the front page of http://www.boycott-az-racing.com/, which got a bit of a laugh.

Discussion--------------------------------------------------------------
This entire law boils down to Source Market Fees, and the belief that the tracks in Phoenix and Prescott Valley should receive money on any and all wagers placed from the state, regarless of the track (such as Belmont) or location of the bettor (Douglas or St. Johns, for example). This is a very debatable topic, and one that I am not going to pursue. But the fact is millions of dollars are sitting in escrow accounts to be paid to Source Market Fees, but the current plan worked out by the horsemen of Arizona will not take the money.

I was quite irritated by the stance that ADW's contribute "nothing to live racing", and had to point out that money is comingled to the pools in the state, as well as license fees (according to one ADW), so money is pouring into live racing in the state. Both wanted to argue with me on this but were unable to, and both tried the stance that people were betting over the phone on Arizona races, which is total BS. If you were an Arizona resident, you couldn't place a bet through an ADW on Arizona races, and I have a difficult time seeing someone coming from out of the state to Yavapai Downs. Again, it comes back to Source Market Fees that would be gladly paid by the ADW's if the tracks would accept it.

I discussed the fact that OTB's in the state basically suck. If you want a very limited number of races from certain tracks, such as races 1-3 at Belmont or Races 3-6 at Santa Anita, then the OTB's in the state, especially in Southern Arizona, are fine, but who can handicap a card not being sure what is going to be covered that day. The product that the tracks provide is suboptimal, which is one reason that so many horseplayers were forced to bet online.

The three of us discussed the Indian situation in the state, and that under the current political leadership, nothing is likely to change anytime soon, meaning that this bill will only be overturned by the courts and not counter legislation.

Conclusion--------------------------------------------------------------
To be honest, I actually believe Mr. Joyce in that Turf Paradise wants ADW's in the state, and that in order to get a clear judgement on ADW's in the state a stiff law such as that had to be passed. I honestly believe that they hope the law is challenged in court and is shown to be unlawful, so that ADW's can reopen to the state.

I have a belief that the horseplayers will be included in future drives to change legislation in the state, which has obviously not be case in the past. I have the feeling that Mr. Joyce is on the side of the horseplayers in the end.

As for Mr. Metzen of the Arizona HBPA, I honestly felt I was wasting his time. He didn't seem to care one bit about what the horseplayers felt about this, and didn't seem to care of the impact that online horseplayers make on the game. From the moment that this meeting was scheduled, he seemed to be only be paying lip service to me and all of us I tried to represent.

Comments--------------------------------------------------------------
I am now up to comments on the meeting, and the suspected outcome of this meeting. Does anyone actually feel that anything will come of this, because I honestly do not. I hope that isn't the case, but what do you think?

I appreciate everyone's comments and support in this, and hopefully our voice will be heard in the end. Too often the one group that honestly supports racing is screwed, and that is the bettors.

[DeanT]

Man alive, you are on fire. That is amazing.

I doubt you will get anywhere with horseman's reps. There are very few who understand betting, imo.

I think you did a hell of a job and should be commended. I wish I had some wise words, but after numerous calls, I am still in the dark on why my track upped the pick 4 take 10%. Understanding what is going on in Arizona is something that I think we don't want to understand. It would make so little sense to most of us who work and live and breathe the free market.

[GMB@BP]

It certainly is no surprise that the horsemen dont care about the player, especially an internet player. I mean for goodness sakes AZ has the highest take in the country.

I never thought the punishment fit the crime and seems ripe for a challenge, but as I pointed out who wants to be the guinny pig, you have to convicted and win on appeal to overturn a harsh penalty constitutional argument.

I had not realized that they would not accept adw fees, why wouldnt they?

In the end very frustrating but no surprise. My question is when Turf Paradise folds up, and its coming, what are the options then?

[Zman179]

I mean for goodness sakes AZ has the highest take in the country.

Actually, Pennsylvania holds that dubious distinction.

Trifecta takeout rates
Philadelphia Park - 30%
Penn National - 31%
Pocono Downs & The Meadows - 35%

[betovernetcapper]

ALostTexan-nice work--With the horsemen it always comes back to source market fees. There is nothing good about source market fees.

[betovernetcapper]

On Monday 1101 people, with nothing else to do, wandered in Tup and bet $46,770 or an average of $42 each on Tup.

On average TUP victims bet $34 a day Saturday-Sunday and Monday.

The average not so grand total for Saturday-Sunday and Monday was $102.

That means if you started Saturday with $110 and bet the same amounts as the Ariziona victims, on and lost every single race Saturday-Sunday and Monday, you'd still have enough money left to buy a slice of pizza.

[rrbauer]

Conclusion--------------------------------------------------------------
To be honest, I actually believe Mr. Joyce in that Turf Paradise wants ADW's in the state, and that in order to get a clear judgement on ADW's in the state a stiff law such as that had to be passed. I honestly believe that they hope the law is challenged in court and is shown to be unlawful, so that ADW's can reopen to the state.



First, thanks for going out of your way and representing a whole lot of people who are either too lazy or too dumb or too selfish to represent anything but themselves (Hello out there: If the shoe fits, wear it!).

And speaking of being narrow-minded it would appear from both your meeting and from what has transpired to date with regard to the Arizona ADW debacle that some very small minds rule the roost in Arizona racing.
For example, if Turf Paradise wants ADW's in the state and thinks that the existing law can be challenged in the courts WHY DON'T THEY CHALLENGE IT?

Clearly, HB2694 is bad law. I believe that and anybody else that believes that should not be supporting racing in Arizona in any form. Let the hammering continue!

[MakinItHappen]

That means if you started Saturday with $110 and bet the same amounts as the Ariziona victims, on and lost every single race Saturday-Sunday and Monday, you'd still have enough money left to buy a slice of pizza.

If I prefer a old shriveled up weiner and a bucket of stale popcorn, am I still good? :lol:

Thanks for the updates on the sad state of affairs in the Grand Canyon state! I understand that Arizona is derived from an Indian word meaning "small spring". I wonder if this could be losely interpretted to me "small brain"?

While it appears obvious from the numbers that the Arizona horseplayers are speaking loudly in regards to their dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs, I am a little concerned with the out of state betting handle...

WAKE UP PEOPLE! SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW HORSEPLAYER'S!! DO NOT WAGER ON TURF PARADISE or YOUR STATE COULD BE NEXT!!!

Best of Luck Everyone!

MakinItHappen

[shanta]

As a followup Mr.Johnson at Turf Paradise has stopped responding to my emails when I brought up the subject of his track wanting a piece of all internet wagers on other tracks outside the state.

Richie

[trying2win]

If Santa Anita indeed will conduct racing regularly on Mondays on their upcoming meet, will anyone shed a tear for Turf Paradise? It might cut into TUP's Monday pari-mutuel handle quite a bit. I suspect Arizona-based bettors are smiling a bit at this Santa Anita talk on another forum here at PACE ADVANTAGE. It might give these bettors a boost of hope in getting their ADW choices back.

T2W

[rrbauer]

SA and GP on Monday and Tampa on Tuesday and a flip of the old bird to TUP every day.

[Hosshead]

I don't know..
If SA is open on Mon. won't it create a larger audience playing at home , not only SA but TuP too ?
Does SA/GP take TuP bets from the "on track" crowd as well ?
Monday is normally a day that a lot of players just write off.
Now there will be more of a monday audience in general.
TuP might be happy about this change?

[BDHPlayer]

I sent the following e-mail to the sponsoprs of HB 2694 which makes it a felony for me to use my ADW account to wager on horse racing.

Fortunately I still use an out of state office address and Arizona can take that and stuff it.

I'll probably be out at Turf Paradise to watch the Breeders Cup. I guarantee you that I won't be wagering on the Breeders Cup there. Until the law is changed, I'm boycotting wagering on horses anywhere in the great nanny state of Arizona.

Here's that e-mail:


It has come to my attention that you were sponsors of HB 2694. This bill prevents hard working tax payers, such as myself, from wagering on the horses that I own throughout the country from the comfort of my home.

As you may or may not be aware, Arizona's laws regarding simulcasting of thoroughbred races horses are archaic. Even if I wanted to go to Turf Paradise or an off track betting facility, the likelihood is that I won't be able to watch my out of state horses compete since many races are not simulcast to Arizona.

Since Arizona has decided that it should be illegal for me to wager on out of state horse races through an advanced deposit wagering company, I believe that we need to have legislation to make it illegal for an out of state resident to wager on Arizona race tracks and for it to be illegal for Arizona race tracks to accept that wager.

While we're at it, I lost $60 at the Casino Arizona poker room on Sunday. I believe that we need legislation to make it illegal to gamble at Indian casinos throughout the state. After all, I know that you don't want families out on the street because money that they spent in casinos could have bought milk for the children.

Also, the last few months have been tough for an investor in the stock market. I believe that we will also need a law to make investing in the stock market illegal. Since you all have gone so far as making Arizona a nanny state, I'm sure that we should make charity gambling and charity raffles illegal. I just might need protection from the state government to prevent me from losing my hard earned dollars on these activities.

I look forward to your help in making Arizona, the nanny state, a better place to live.

By the way, could you guys pass legislation to prevent God, if there is one, from making the summers so hot. July temperatures of 100 degrees maximum would sure be great. Maybe the state could provide sun screen to protect the citizenry against melanomas.

Looking forward to your response. Keep up the good work.

[trigger]

"Through the first 20 days of the meet, field size has averaged 8.50 horses per race, according to The Jockey Club. For the first 19 days of the meet last year, field size averaged 7.59 horses per race. That’s an increase of almost one horse per race so far this season.
The track has used its extensive off-track betting network to stay competitive despite an increase in American Indian gaming in the state and the allure of slots-enriched races in neighboring New Mexico.Arizona is second to New York in the number of off-track betting facilities with 66 outlets in the state. All except 10 are controlled by Turf Paradise; the 10 locations in Tucson are managed by Tucson Greyhound Park.
Turf Paradise receives all revenue generated by its 56 OTB facilities, but the restaurant or bar conducting the wagering retains the food and beverage income. The economic model is beneficial to the racetrack and the OTB parlor, Turf Paradise manager Eugene Joyce said."
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41752

[DeanT]

The economic model is beneficial to the racetrack and the OTB parlor, Turf Paradise manager Eugene Joyce said."
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41752

Protect us and make people bet with us, we'll make more money. To hell with our customers choice, convenience and freedoms.

RRbauer, what is your url again? ;)

[swetyejohn]

I sent the following e-mail to the sponsoprs of HB 2694 which makes it a felony for me to use my ADW account to wager on horse racing.

Fortunately I still use an out of state office address and Arizona can take that and stuff it.

I'll probably be out at Turf Paradise to watch the Breeders Cup. I guarantee you that I won't be wagering on the Breeders Cup there. Until the law is changed, I'm boycotting wagering on horses anywhere in the great nanny state of Arizona.

BDH -- loved the letter.

Glad to see calling Arizona "the Nanny State" is catching on.

[rrbauer]

Protect us and make people bet with us, we'll make more money. To hell with our customers choice, convenience and freedoms.

RRbauer, what is your url again? ;)

Check it out...

http://www.boycott-az-racing.com/Suppose.html

[DeanT]

Seeing that alcohol is heavily licensed and regulated it worked perfectly.

[MIKE D]

It has came to my attention,from good friends that Turf Paradise betters who use the Players Club at the track are given large wine glasses when ordering sodas.Oh how elegant you may say,well the catch to that one is NO FREE REFILLS, with your overpriced sandwich.Thats the tip of the iceberg.If you are a backstretch worker your beer is not allowed to be consumed unless A reciept showing purchase at the track can be produced.We have insane politicos,Insane track management,can anyone say anything good about horseracing in this state.

[ezrabrooks]

Check it out...

http://www.boycott-az-racing.com/Suppose.html


Jeez..

Ez

[swetyejohn]

We have insane politicos,Insane track management,can anyone say anything good about horseracing in this state.


The IRS will soon be trying to collect back taxes from Turf Paradise probably resulting in their closure.

Is that a good thing to say about horseracing the state?

[MIKE D]

No thats not a good thing,It hurts horsemen and other hard working people at the track.I dont think that it would help us to get our ADW accounts back.We need an influential group to come to the rescue and buy out the present owner and then negotiate with the political regime.Get slot machines back on the ballot,for both Horse and dog tracks,pay the indian casinos the 4% to carry the signals,try to bring some sense to the present situation

[parshooter]

Not sure what ADW is. However i have wagered at turf paradise and teletheatres in ths state - it would seem there is very little support for horse racing in AZ financially. Also casino monies belong to first nations. AZ needs to be aggressive - :confused:

adw

[parshooter]

Just determined what ADW is. It seems archaic to not allow that in AZ

[cardinalsfan]

First, let me be clear that this is all speculation but I know the kind of people we are dealing with in our fines state so here goes............

Whenever Jerry Simms (the principal owner of Turf Paradise) and the horseman are on the same side of legislation, I have to wonder what is going on. I'm not saying the horseman were sold a bill of goods but....I really think the horsemen agreed to this new legislation thinking that it would increase the handle at the IN-STATE tracks.

Truth be told, it is my suspicion that Simms actual goal of such legislation is that it would help his handle on the OUT-OF-STATE tracks he simulcasts and got the horsemen to go along selling them on the thought that the IN-STATE handle would increase. You see, Turf Paradise carries a full selection of OUT OF STATE simulcasts (probably 15 to 20 tracks at Turf Paradise Race Track and 4-8 at the off track sites).

Folow me now. Who benefits the most from this legislation? Basically only the owners of Turf Paradise and possilby Yavapai Downs. There has alway been very slight loss of revenues from bettors within Arizona on betting at Turf Paradise that went throught the ADW systems because all but one of the ADW sites banned betting on Turf Paradise even when you were able to use their services. BUT, Turf Paradise, through this legislation has now forced all IN-STATE residents to place their bets on OUT-OF-STATE tracks through Turf Paradise's wagering system.

Wake up horsemen! You might be getting a small benefit from all this but the big winners are the race track owners! The right solution is to do what is right for the bettors, yes, the people that enable you to win purses. Reverse this law and get somebody competent to negotiate fair deals with the ADW sites so you can share equitably in the simulcast wagering revenue. Angering more and more fans is NOT the answer!

How much more of this unbelivable self serving garbage can we take. We love this sport of horse racing but there really will be a time that enough IS enough! That time is getting closer and closer and when it comes the party will be over for everyone.

What if, just what if ALL racing fans boycotted all race tracks for just one day? Would they finally stop treating us like garbage and start treating us like the people that fuel their ENTIRE industry. When are we as fans finally going to say we are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore? When?

[rrbauer]

What if, just what if ALL racing fans boycotted all race tracks for just one day? Would they finally stop treating us like garbage and start treating us like the people that fuel their ENTIRE industry. When are we as fans finally going to say we are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore? When?


Try a year! A day wouldn't mean beans....can't you see them sitting around and dissing us and our stupidity and making a line on whether we would be back tonight, tomorrow or the next day? I started my year on October29 and I can't believe the other things that I'm already into.

[cardinalsfan]

You're right. One day would not get these knuclehead track owners/management and horse owners to take notice. Apparently they are not the brightest! They have the absolutely best wagering and entertainment thing going and yet they insist on treating their customers like pond scum. Here in Arizona, especially at the off-track betting sites (which one is now FORCED to use if