Ohio Horsemen Pull Signal

[northerndancer]

The Ohio Horsemen pulled the Thistledown signal from 8 outlets yesterday. The horsemen want more for their signal even though the outlets have a contract with Track Net Media (and approved by the Ohio Horsemen) through the end of the current Thistle meet.

The Horsemen want to increase the rate for the signal. I am told that the following were cutoff RGS, Wembley, Elite, 3 Other Greyhound Tracks, Pocono Downs and The Meadows. The information I received is that the horsemen decided that The Meadows and Pocono have slot revenue therefore they should be paying more. The other 6 pay rebates therefore they can pay more for the signal.

One piece of information that I have yet to verify is that part of the reason is that the horsemen only recieve 33% of the signal fee. That it is not the normal 50/50 split of the signal fee. Can anyone verify that this is correct.

[Premier Turf Club]

The Ohio Horsemen pulled the Thistledown signal from 8 outlets yesterday. The horsemen want more for their signal even though the outlets have a contract with Track Net Media (and approved by the Ohio Horsemen) through the end of the current Thistle meet.

The Horsemen want to increase the rate for the signal. I am told that the following were cutoff RGS, Wembley, Elite, 3 Other Greyhound Tracks, Pocono Downs and The Meadows. The information I received is that the horsemen decided that The Meadows and Pocono have slot revenue therefore they should be paying more. The other 6 pay rebates therefore they can pay more for the signal.

One piece of information that I have yet to verify is that part of the reason is that the horsemen only recieve 33% of the signal fee. That it is not the normal 50/50 split of the signal fee. Can anyone verify that this is correct.

I don't know about the 33% vs the 50% but this is exactly what they told me they were going to do back in February, cut off all the ADWs. Head of the Ohio HPBA told me the horsemen's share of the signal fee should equal 7% of handle. He thought the tracks should get 5% on top of that. I told Beulah's simulcast director he should probably find another job, which he did (seriously) one month later.

[northerndancer]

I also heard that Beulah is attempting to negotiate higher signal fees for their 2008 contracts.

I am ok with the negotiation aspect of the contract since it pertains to an event that will take place in the future. I do not agree with this tactic of pulling access to a signal that you have previously agreed to be part of the deal.

I will support the horsemen's right but only if done in a professional and ethical manner. The Ohio Horsemen are way out of line in relation to this situation.

[highnote]

How does reducing handle on their signal help them?

If no one ever bets on a Thistledown race again, will they be missed?

I'm a native Ohioan, so I wish them luck. But I'm not sure it's the right tactic. Seems to me they need every penny of income they can get.

[NoCal Boy]

Higher host fees work fine as long as source market fees are reduced. This way the track taking the action gets compensated adequately and the horsemen for such track as well. A state like Virginia that I believe has the entire state as a source market is a dinosaur if the model is going to work. If a person wagers on Santa Anita in Phoenix, why should Turf Paradise get much of a piece of the pie from such wager.

[NoCal Boy]

oops...forgot no one in Phoenix can wager through an ADW:confused:

[highnote]

If Thistledown ceased operating would anyone besides the horsemen and employees notice or care?

Do many ADW customers bet seriously on Thistledown?

Would be interested in hearing replies.

[exiles]

If Thistledown ceased operating would anyone besides the horsemen and employees notice or care?

Do many ADW customers bet seriously on Thistledown?

Would be interested in hearing replies.

i don't

[Tom]

People would actually pay money to watch an Ohio race?????
Not exaclty the top of the t-bred list of tracks to bet.
The good old horsemen, once again acting like spoiled little kids.

[cj]

I bet them just like any other track. However, if Tdn and/or Beu disappears from the menu, I think I'll sleep just fine that night.

[prospector]

If Thistledown ceased operating would anyone besides the horsemen and employees notice or care?

Do many ADW customers bet seriously on Thistledown?

Would be interested in hearing replies.
nope...they're not on PTC

[Premier Turf Club]

nope...they're not on PTC

Not for lack of effort. Turned us down on 3 occasions. Said they weren't interested in any more ADWs.

[alydar]

The Ohio horsemen seem to amung the more aggressive out there. Hard to understand in the crowded simulcast market. If it weren't for the Beulah Twins, handle would be many millions lower. Beulah actually is making an effort to raise handle with the Twins and their Fortune Six bet, and the horsemen think they are NY racing or something. They should be selling their signal to anyone that will take it. It is a state in deep doo doo. No slots and surrounded by states with slots or better racing. Thistledown wants fewer race dates, lots of good news huh?


Once again these guys have it wrong. It is not about fighting for a bigger piece of the existing pie, it is about making the pie bigger.

[highnote]

Maybe they figure they've got nothing to lose at this point?

Without slots, maybe they figure their days are numbered?

[Steve 'StatMan']

Plus Magna has put Thistledowns up for sale.

Maybe new ownership will feel differently. Of course, maybe new ownership might want just the land - don't know much about the property.

If I recall correctly, there are no OTB's in Ohio either. Gambling choices are either live at the track, or the state lottery. (Or cross the state boarder to an OTB or a casino).

[Premier Turf Club]

Maybe they figure they've got nothing to lose at this point?

Without slots, maybe they figure their days are numbered?

How can that strategy ensure anything other than a loss? What other possible outcome is there? It's more than just Ohio. The former head of the Ohio HPBA is a senior member in the national HPBA. He's told my partner that if it were up to him ADWs would pay 10-12% for everything or they could hit the highway.

[highnote]

How can that strategy ensure anything other than a loss?

It probably can't. Sounds like they are going to lose no matter what they do. So maybe they figure doing this is better than doing nothing?

Not a good position to be in.



What other possible outcome is there?

Maybe they're trying to get attention from politicians in hopes they can get pols to pass a slots law?

It's more than just Ohio. The former head of the Ohio HPBA is a senior member in the national HPBA. He's told my partner that if it were up to him ADWs would pay 10-12% for everything or they could hit the highway.

87% of handle comes from simulcasting. If the fee was 10-12% would there be simulcasting?

If the answer is no, then the question would be "What would happen to handle if the fee was 10-12%?"

[DeanT]

From my experience with horseman reps there seems to be this strange idea floating around that if you cut off signals people will come to the track and all will be well again.

I have heard that a couple times here in Ontario, FWIW.

[HorseRun]

Horsemen Everywhere, please come join us in the 21st Century!!!

[JustRalph]

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/09/22/GAMBLERULING.ART_ART_09-22-07_A1_VP7VOJJ.html?sid=101

Judge allows games to stay
Governor, Dann can't ban Tic Tac Fruit on their own
Saturday, September 22, 2007 6:46 AM
By James Nash

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Although a judge handcuffed state officials yesterday in their attempts to banish thousands of slot-machinelike devices from Ohio, Attorney General Marc Dann vowed to keep up the fight.

Judge Michael J. Holbrook of the Franklin County Common Pleas Court ruled that Dann and Gov. Ted Strickland overstepped their authority when they set up rules outlawing "games of skill" that pay cash prizes. A 2003 state law allows the devices.

The judge ordered state officials not to touch two of the games: the popular Tic Tac Fruit, which features reels of fruit icons that players try to arrange into winning combinations, and Nudgemaster, which allows players to "nudge" a reel up or down to line up matching icons.

There are about 4,000 Tic Tac Fruit and Nudgemaster machines in Ohio bars, game parlors and horse tracks, say attorneys for distributors of the two games. Dann and Strickland say there are thousands of other slot-machine clones across Ohio and they intend to forge ahead with efforts to put them out of business.

"The governor is doing everything he can to stop the proliferation of gambling in Ohio," said his spokesman, Keith Dailey. "He will continue to do so."


~more at the link~

[Indulto]

The Ohio horsemen seem to amung the more aggressive out there. Hard to understand in the crowded simulcast market. If it weren't for the Beulah Twins, handle would be many millions lower. Beulah actually is making an effort to raise handle with the Twins and their Fortune Six bet, and the horsemen think they are NY racing or something. They should be selling their signal to anyone that will take it. It is a state in deep doo doo. No slots and surrounded by states with slots or better racing. Thistledown wants fewer race dates, lots of good news huh?

Once again these guys have it wrong. It is not about fighting for a bigger piece of the existing pie, it is about making the pie bigger.What would we do without the "Twins?" Marie Calendar just won't cut it. Shake or bake, boys?

[Tom]

Horsemen Everywhere, please come join us in the 21st Century!!!



psssst......I'd be happy if the horsemen came in into the 20th century!

[northerndancer]

Plus Magna has put Thistledowns up for sale.

Maybe new ownership will feel differently. Of course, maybe new ownership might want just the land - don't know much about the property.

If I recall correctly, there are no OTB's in Ohio either. Gambling choices are either live at the track, or the state lottery. (Or cross the state boarder to an OTB or a casino).

This is not a track owner caused situation. The horsemen are the ones who pulled the signal. TNM has exposure as they signed guarantees with RGS's of the world in exchange for the 1.5% TV fee that signal access would not be in jeapordy. Since those agreements went into effect there has been two interuptions for the RGS's of the world (Laurel's 10 day 10% takeout experiment and Thistledowns).

I also think that TNM is getting a free look at how this approach will work with the major ADW's in the industry. What will the players from the RGS's of the world do with Thistledowns..... will they look to renogiate now or sit on the sidelines.

I found out that one of the other outlest cutoff was Cordelain (sorry for the spelling).

The other interesting point here is that Thistledowns shut off 2 tracks The Meadows and Pocono. These tracks are also members of the Mid Atlantic consortium of tracks (I believe it is called the Mid Atlantic 15). In cutting off members of the consortium I would expect that the rest of the consortium will cease to take the signal (Philadelphia Park has the power position in the Mid Atlantic consortium).

[Steve 'StatMan']

I guess I'm thinking it's bad enough Thistledowns is for sale, Magana isn't making money on the place in the seemingly unchangeable environment, and who knows what'll happen to it in the future. Now the horsemen's decision to shut out the ADW's and raise the price on their local product that, sadly, few are interested in as it is, will help drive more nails into their coffin.

Perhaps they are forgetting that the people who ARE still willing to make the drive to TDN & elsewhere are betting a lot more money on tracks other than TDN, RD & BEU.

Too bad - I tend to pick just as many winners there as I pick elsewhere (my betting, any track, lately, is a whole 'nother issue.)

Hate to see them fail. Yes, I do hope it works for them, though I sadly don't expect it to.

[Kelso]

The other 6 pay rebates therefore they can pay more for the signal.


Are Ohio schools really this bad? Is the concept of a bigger pie lost to these idiots? :mad:

If they sufficiently reduce the rebaters' competitive edge ... and if anyone can understand the importance of an edge it should be racing folk ... they eventually put them out of business. And no, fellas, customers of those defunct ADWs won't be flocking back to tracks they never attended in the first place. They'll find a local slot machine, instead.

[JustRalph]

Are Ohio schools really this bad? Is the concept of a bigger pie lost to these idiots? :mad:

If they sufficiently reduce the rebaters' competitive edge ... and if anyone can understand the importance of an edge it should be racing folk ... they eventually put them out of business. And no, fellas, customers of those defunct ADWs won't be flocking back to tracks they never attended in the first place. They'll find a local slot machine, instead.

16% of Cleveland Seniors passed the state test to be officially graduated...............84% got "Diploma Completion Certificates"

[rrbauer]

If Thistledown ceased operating would anyone besides the horsemen and employees notice or care?

Do many ADW customers bet seriously on Thistledown?

Would be interested in hearing replies.

ThistleWHOcares? Isn't Ohio the state that gave us the US Rep who slipped the rider/amendment into the Ports' legislation that put all the financial outfits in trouble if they transferred our money to gambling sites? If the Ohio horse owners want more money they should go to their state legislature and get a subsidy from the state. Put it on the ballot and let's find out how important the voters think that giving more money to horse owners is.

[Premier Turf Club]

As everyone on this board knows, we don't have all the content we would like. Then again, these days most ADWs don't.

What most horsemen / tracks fail to realize is that by denying us (and others) the signal ALL they do is push players to open up accounts off-shore. Based upon an informal polling and analysis of our customers' play, my guess is PTC players alone wager $3,000,000 a month off-shore on the tracks we don't have. That's $150,000 a month just from the PTC client base that's not going toward purses, track expenses, etc. Nor will it ever come back to the pools without a rebate. I'm not going to single anyone out. There are some horsemen's groups and tracks that "get-it". Many, many others don't. Yet a lot of them want to bitch about the fall-off in handle.

It's like the little boy who kills both his parents and then asks the judge to show mercy toward him because he is an orphan.

[JustRalph]

If the Ohio horse owners want more money they should go to their state legislature and get a subsidy from the state.

They have already done this twice in the form of gambling/slots legislation. Failed both times by wide margins.

A subsidy for horse racing would just go down even worse...........

[betovernetcapper]

There have been a few times in my life I've experienced awe. Once I was reading Henry Miller and suddenly was dumbstruck by how he could use very ordinary words and describe an ordinary event so perfectly.
Another time I was in the Chicago Art Institute about 5 o'clock and looking at an old stained glass window and the light shifted and for some reason I was kind of blown away.
When I read about the Ohio horseman, I had a similar experience.
Everyday I see things I think are kind of stupid, but amusing-"wow-that's stupid". Britney Spears recent MTV appearance was like that.
Sometimes I see things that are stupid and annoying "NOW THAT'S JUST STUPID".
The Ohio horsemen have taken stupidity to a ground breaking-envelope tearing new level. The P in the Ohio HBPA must stand for protective because these guys are too stupid to handle sharp objects. If stupidity were a race, than the Ohio horseman are Secretariat in the Belmont. A thousand years from now when children are asked to define stupidity, they will reference TDN.

TDN horseman, I stand in total awe.

[rrbauer]

Overheard on the backstretch at TDN:
Owner1: "Let's show those sumsabitches. Turn off our signal. Let 'em find something else to bet on."
Owner2: "Damn right! No signal - no rebates. They'll learn."

[MikeDee]

I wonder if I can put this in perspective. If I sold a product that was very adaptable to the world wide web. How would I market it?

1. Would I put it on world wide web and make make it available to any one in the entire world right from the comfort and convenience and their own home.

Or

2. Would restrict my sales to only those that are in convenient driving distance to N. Randall Oh. And then expect my customers to spend 4 or 5 hours a day inside a building with a ugly steel beamed interior that looks like the insides of a factory, painted a in dark colors and gun metal gray.

Why if I'm and Ohio horseman I'd opt for no. 2 of course. Do these guys have enough sense to poor urine out of their riding boots?

[john del riccio]

I wonder if I can put this in perspective. If I sold a product that was very adaptable to the world wide web. How would I market it?

1. Would I put it on world wide web and make make it available to any one in the entire world right from the comfort and convenience and their own home.

Or

2. Would restrict my sales to only those that are in convenient driving distance to N. Randall Oh. And then expect my customers to spend 4 or 5 hours a day inside a building with a ugly steel beamed interior that looks like the insides of a factory, painted a in dark colors and gun metal gray.

Why if I'm and Ohio horseman I'd opt for no. 2 of course. Do these guys have enough sense to poor urine out of their riding boots?


Uh....without the pools, there are no purses.....it sounds like someone needs a nap.

John

[highnote]

I haven't heard one positive comment yet about the Ohio horsemen's position.

I'm just not getting thier stance. What do they expect to gain?

Can someone play devil's advocate here so we can understand?

[betovernetcapper]

Why if I'm and Ohio horseman I'd opt for no. 2 of course. Do these guys have enough sense to poor urine out of their riding boots?

Great post :lol:

[highnote]

Well, here's the answer to why Ohio horsemen pulled their signal:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40953&source=rss

Maybe they figure Tic Tac Fruit is going to be their salvation. :D

[NoCal Boy]

Not to sound like I support what the Oho horsemen did, but they did not shut off any of the major ADW's licensed in this country. How much handle actually went through the sites that were shut off? Are we making a mountain out of a mole hill here?

[MikeDee]

In response to: john del riccioUh....without the pools, there are no purses.....it sounds like someone needs a nap.Last time I checked, money from the ADW's goes into the pools.
I don't know you well enough to insult you John, so I'll just ignore your "nap" comment.

In response to:NoCal Boy In a earlier post Ian posted the following:
I don't know about the 33% vs the 50% but this is exactly what they told me they were going to do back in February, cut off all the ADWs.If the ultimate intent of the horsemen is to cut off all ADW's then I don't think to much is being made of this. Especially when you consider this statement along with the recent legislation in AZ.

[garyoz]

In response to:NoCal Boy In a earlier post Ian posted the following:
If the ultimate intent of the horsemen is to cut off all ADW's then I don't think to much is being made of this. Especially when you consider this statement along with the recent legislation in AZ.

Ohio is a complicated place for ADW's, remember that although being sold to Churchill, AmericaTab is still an Ohio company, paying taxes and employing people. Also, Beulah and River have not joined Thistle (they used to own AmericaTab). The harness tracks also have political clout. While the current administration is anti-casino gambling--they don't appear to be anti-horse racing. Maybe Magna Stupidity is contagious and that's behind the Thistle horsemen.

[JustRalph]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917837

Horse Farms: Gambling Policy Destroying Industry

NBC 4
updated 17 minutes ago
XENIA, Ohio -- A decline in betting at Ohio racetracks over the past few years has meant smaller purses for winning horses and their breeders, many of whom are under pressure to scale back their farms or sell them to developers.

"I'd love to keep this as a horse farm," said Tom McCann, co-owner of Golden Glen Farm near this southwest Ohio city. "But I'm afraid I'll be joining the growing list of people who have shut their farms down."

Two years ago, Golden Glen was home to 32 thoroughbred race horses. Today, the 157-acre farm has just 13 horses, and its financial hopes ride on a promising yearling bay stud named Cowboy.

Breeders and owners say Ohioans' objections to legalized gambling are in part responsible for the uncertain future of horse farms. When voters said no to slot machines at racetracks in 2006, they also said no to millions of dollars in state revenues and no to Ohio's increasingly hard-pressed horse farms, industry advocates say. Ohio voters also rejected casino gambling issues in 1990 and 1996.

~more at the link~

[Premier Turf Club]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917837

Horse Farms: Gambling Policy Destroying Industry

NBC 4
updated 17 minutes ago
XENIA, Ohio -- A decline in betting at Ohio racetracks over the past few years has meant smaller purses for winning horses and their breeders, many of whom are under pressure to scale back their farms or sell them to developers.

Reminds me of the story about the little boy that killed both his parents and then asked the court for mercy because he was an orphan...

[melman]

Ian at least the s-bred horse people are with you on PTC. IMHO the t-bred people in OHIO just don't get it.

[betovernetcapper]

I loved this line

McCann said he and his wife, Judy, will tough it out - not only for themselves and their five employees, but for the sake of the environment as well. :lol:

If the horsemen were serious about making Ohio racing work (and feel free to substitute another sate like Illinois or La), they'd sell the damned signal.

[boomman]

Reminds me of the story about the little boy that killed both his parents and then asked the court for mercy because he was an orphan...

Ian: Right on the button! They keep cutting off signals or refusing to sign new contracts (via their lack of dealing with PTC), yet they then have the audacity to "cry in their milk" after behaving in this manner. I cannot help but think the rank and file have little idea what is really going on with the Ohio Horsemen leadership (Dave Basler, et all) who are ENTIRELY out of control. I know for a FACT that River Downs does not support the horsemen's position on this, and their actions are endangering their very existence!:mad:

Boomer

[Bruddah]

in the end, is cause other tracks to realize they didn't need their (Ohio) signal anyway. The horsemen backing this action have taken a sh_t in their mess kits. ( an old Marine Corp saying) Meaning you don't take a crap where you eat.

As others have said, someone is not playing from a full deck. :confused:

[alydar]

You see this type of thing happennow and adgain. Leadership of a group has no grip on realty and leads the whole ship down. The siutationin Ohio is bad and getting worse. Eventually the this group of misguided leaders will be thrown out. The question is how much damage will have been done by then.


In the croweded worls of simulcasting the Ohio signal is already a tough sell. Hard to understand their mentality. The should take a lesson from Mountaineer. I know Ohio does not have slots, but Mountaineer has aggresively pushed their signal, with great success, and it has paid off.

[Premier Turf Club]

For the record:

We were offered the signal by the Ohio tracks, well at least Beulah which is where we started. The horsemen wouldn't sign the contract Beulah gave us.

Water under the bridge, I'd be delighted to sign a contract with the Ohio horsemen. If any of their managment read the board please feel free to contact me.

[BillW]

For the record:

We were offered the signal by the Ohio tracks, well at least Beulah which is where we started. The horsemen wouldn't sign the contract Beulah gave us.

Water under the bridge, I'd be delighted to sign a contract with the Ohio horsemen. If any of their managment read the board please feel free to contact me.

Aren't they (TDN/BEU) part of the Tracknet monopoly now?

[Premier Turf Club]

Aren't they (TDN/BEU) part of the Tracknet monopoly now?

TDN yes, BEU & RD I don't think so.

[alydar]

You see this type of thing happennow and adgain. Leadership of a group has no grip on realty and leads the whole ship down. The siutationin Ohio is bad and getting worse. Eventually the this group of misguided leaders will be thrown out. The question is how much damage will have been done by then.


In the croweded worls of simulcasting the Ohio signal is already a tough sell. Hard to understand their mentality. The should take a lesson from Mountaineer. I know Ohio does not have slots, but Mountaineer has aggresively pushed their signal, with great success, and it has paid off.

Wow, that will teach me to wake up before typing.

I do not think that River and Beulah are Tracknet. They sold Winticket to Churchill but I think that the track status remains the same as before.

[Premier Turf Club]

I do not think that River and Beulah are Tracknet. They sold Winticket to Churchill but I think that the track status remains the same as before.

Just checked my notes. They are not.

[BillW]

Just checked my notes. They are not.

Good to hear that BEU didn't have an "Ellis Park" clause in their deal. :ThmbUp: