Old Programs / Support

[richrosa]

I've been thinking about starting this thread for a while.

If you notice the posts in this section, maybe about 50% of them are about old programs that no one supports anymore, or aren't fit to run on the PC's that most people have today.

I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would want to utilize an old program that hasn't been updated (maybe never) when besides HOS, there are so many great programs out there that their authors support with their heart and soul. Just to name a few, but not totally inclusive, you have HTR, HSH, Synergism, JCapper, RDSS, Master Magician, Netcapper, All-Ways, and many others that I'm not leaving out on purpose.

Of course I don't recommend buying new software every year, but some of these programs that are mentioned here came out on 5 1.4" floppies.

I'm very interested to understand what makes the older programs work for you rather than picking up a program like HOS that I have updated over 100 times in the past year alone to either add features, fix bugs, or to make adjustments to our changing game. Like some others out here, I'm not just a programmer, but a horseplayer too, which makes the development process even more interesting.

I have an open mind, but there are software vendors out here busting their butts to make great software and make a huge effort to support great customers, yet some of use the same software that Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble used at the dinosaur races. I remain baffled. Please help me get a clue.

[Tom]

Because they work.
Because you don't have to make a huge monetarty outlay to use them.

I still use K Gen for BC and triple crown races. It is still, IMHO the best thing out there bar none for selecting the right contenders and pacelines.

I use MPH frequently. Very good program and versitle.

Just because they are old doesn't mean they don't work.

[banacek]

yet some of use the same software that Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble used at the dinosaur races. I remain baffled. Please help me get a clue.

Name one current program that picked Sabre Tooth:)

[DJofSD]

When the only tool you have is a hammer, it's not a surprise when the world seems to be full of nails.

[Gibbon]

Rich,

I thought RDSS is still in beta?
Contractual commitment screams bloody murder.
Developers seemed to have repackage Microsoft's EULA
and superimposed their own. As I keep repeating; data downloads,
where the real money is made.

[shoelessjoe]

I was talking to Bob Purdy and was thinking of upgrading from Synergism 4 to Synergism 6.His response was if your doing well with 4 why do you want to spend the extra money for files just for a newer version.Tom was right in his post if your doing well with an older program why shell out big bucks for a newer one.Shoeless

[JimG]

I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would want to utilize an old program that hasn't been updated (maybe never) when besides HOS, there are so many great programs out there that their authors support with their heart and soul. Just to name a few, but not totally inclusive, you have HTR, HSH, Synergism, JCapper, RDSS, Master Magician, Netcapper, All-Ways, and many others that I'm not leaving out on purpose.



Because they are winning with the old program?

[shoelessjoe]

Im basically a weekend player why would I want to shell out 129.00 month for your program.I feel this is a problem with most of the newer software out there it's not geared financially towards the weekend warrior.Shoeless

[ryesteve]

Im basically a weekend player why would I want to shell out 129.00 month for your program.I feel this is a problem with most of the newer software out there it's not geared financially towards the weekend warrior.Shoeless
Not all software requires monthly subscriptions. And I recall Rich had a deal where you'd end up getting the data for free.

Anyway, my assumption concerning the original question is that people are resistant to change. They're generally content to persist in routine behavior, whether it's constructive or not.

[jandrus]

Only if you bet $3000+ per mth.

[shoelessjoe]

3000 month betting thats peanuts for us weekend players.Shoeless

[richrosa]

I can totally understand using a program forever if you are winning with it. Certainly you should stick with that.

Shoeless, I'd like to convince you that I'm not complaining that you are not buying my program. I know in my heart that I've done everything imaginable to produce a program that is at the lowest price point possible, where I make less money on a user per month that my two kids allowances combined (they're 8 and 6 for perspective).

Please don't take this as bitterness, but at the same time we have the ADW showdown going on, I could make a point that the software providers are not supported nearly enough to encourage innovation and support. I have no illusions of grandeur. I make all my income elsewhere and don't depend on HOS for a nickel. Anyone who knows me I do it for the passion and the fun. I'm not the norm. If the software guys aren't supported, you'll have even older programs to play with.

[shoelessjoe]

Rich,I wonder why the software providers cant make seperate plans for people that play mostly on the weekends like myself.Shoeless

[richrosa]

Rich,I wonder why the software providers cant make seperate plans for people that play mostly on the weekends like myself.Shoeless

Honestly, what would you pay per racecard that would make it worthwhile for a software vendor to provide you documentation and support to aid you in using the software?

[DJofSD]

Hey, Ford, I only plan on driving your vehicle 5,000 miles a year. How about a discount?

[jhilden]

Hey, Ford, I only plan on driving your vehicle 5,000 miles a year. How about a discount?

No, but most insurance companies will give you a substantial discount :)

For using old software - If it aint broke, why fix it? But I myself did stop using a fossil program for two reasons. A - I was tired of manual entry and B, I wanted a program that enables me to do my own research.

[shoelessjoe]

DJofSD,They do it's called leasing.

[banacek]

I don't have a problem with those with a free or low cost program (e.g. HTR) not being able to afford to sell the data files on a per card basis - their cut on the data files are their source of income. But if I am going to fork over $500 + for the program, it would be nice to be able to have a per card (or moderate usage)deal.

[Dave Schwartz]

I don't have a problem with those with a free or low cost program (e.g. HTR) not being able to afford to sell the data files on a per card basis - their cut on the data files are their source of income. But if I am going to fork over $500 + for the program, it would be nice to be able to have a per card (or moderate usage)deal.

That is not up to the vendor of the software (for that matter the data vendor).

The data vendor has a contract with EqB which limits their ability to sell other than subscription or individual files.

If one builds a product that works with the "daily" pricing model, the software developer gets no cut of the downloads. The only exception to that (that I am aware of) is the Allways program with their "special" data files.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[DJofSD]

DJofSD,They do it's called leasing.

Yes, and when you lease a vehicle, there are specific terms. How long is the lease term, the monthly rate, total miles allowed to be driven during the terms of the lease, fees owed if you exceed the total mileage -- a likely others that I don't know about.

OK, if you want an equivalent deal to be able to use software are you willing to have the same kind of restrictions and penalties? Since the comment regarded usage by a weekend player, I'm sure Rich could fashion a system to allow you to only log on during the weekend. And then limit you to so many races per day. For software installed on your own computer, I'm sure there'd be a way to validate usage in a similar manner through a sophisticated scheme via the internet.

I'm sure with enough effort it could be made to work. But what's in it for the software developer? Seems like a lot of hassle with nothing but on going headaches to administer it.

[shoelessjoe]

I was just responding to Rich's statement and this could be ONE of the reasons people stick to older programs.People like myself who dont feel like shelling out $129 a month for just weekends or who just play 1 or 2 tracks .Shoeless

[richrosa]

Shoeless,

I understand your position totally, however like DJofSD said, its difficult to support users both in cost and time who are in this position. IMHOO BRIS and Trackmaster do that better supporting with lesser data quality for mostly less capable programs.

[Tom]

Doesn't that answer your original question? Those you will support will support you, Those you won't support won't support you.

[kitts]

Shoeless-

There is software out there that does not cost $129 per month for download. Even better, there is software that allows manually entering the data-just like the old days.

[richrosa]

Doesn't that answer your original question? Those you will support will support you, Those you won't support won't support you.

Not exactly. I'm always looking for a way to support more.

Through this kind of thread I've learned that some people are loyal to their unsupported software because they win with it, and others are loyal because it fits their price point. Those are both tough markets to crack.

What I didn't learn from this thread is what the motivates the many in-between to seek out, and stick with these older programs. I can't help them if they are looking for the $1 file, that just doesn't work. If they are looking to modernize, and ditch the DOS program, I'm here.

[banacek]

What I didn't learn from this thread is what the motivates the many in-between to seek out, and stick with these older programs. I can't help them if they are looking for the $1 file, that just doesn't work. If they are looking to modernize, and ditch the DOS program, I'm here.

Well, I use a DOS program, as well as my home-grown one. I'd love to try out some of these other programs. And I'm not looking for the $1 file, but that's all I can get.

I am not interested in all the files for North America. There are many on this board that bet almost any track that is running. I am the type of bettor that needs to know the trainers, jocks, and track better than that - not that you can't necessarily be successful otherwise. And Dave says the HDW model doesn't allow for moderate usage - with the exception of Cynthia, but I think Dave said they were grandfathered in - so I can't really rationalize spending $129/month for 8 files.

Part of my problem (which I had a long thread about before on this board), is that I wanted archive files for the last year for the tracks I am interested in and would have paid for them, while HDW only supplies 45 days of everything and apparently I can't seem to get anything further back. Before I try out new software, I need to test it on a year or so of data. That's the scientist in me, I guess. So I made the decision to stick with my homegrown program and a DOS program.

So I am using my old DOS program which works pretty well for my purposes, paying $1 a file for the BRIS files which apparently aren't as good. Now if I could get a high level software that suits my purposes for $500-$800 and files for $4-5 a card of which the software developer could get a couple bucks a file, I'd be interested.

[headhawg]

I think another advantage of the $1 Bris or like files is the versatility -- they can be used in more than one program. If you go with a program that uses HDW data you can't use it in other programs.

That said, using multiple programs is a double-edged sword. It lessens the likelihood that one will master one program. It is certainly possible that the lack of mastery is what is preventing people from doing a better job of handicapping and, ultimately, winning.

[shanta]

People like myself who dont feel like shelling out $129 a month for just weekends or who just play 1 or 2 tracks .Shoeless

Shoe,
Fortunately for you "warriors" there are crack programmers like Jeff Platt (Jcapper) and Ted Craven (RDSS) who make a quality product available on a per card basis.

Jcapper is an awesome piece of software with proprietary ratings and Jeff's support of it is top notch.

RDSS is almost ready for prime time and will have features none of others have. Ted is rocking and rolling after just finishing up a live webinar!

Richie :)

[Big Bill]

I would love it if you guys would chime in with your opinions of the following program and the support that its developer offers:

Sartin Method Pro Calculator

It is offered, and has been for quite awhile, at this site:

http://sports-bet-advantage.com/sartpro2.htm

My gut feeling is that at the price it is offered for, it may not be all that it is claimed to be.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Big Bill

[bigmack]

In looking at the offerings for the $100-$130/mo range you have the HDW family of products, all of which are excellent. I've heard that JCapper is equally as strong though don't know his price structure.

So some of you loons are going to say that for some of the best data out there for every track running you can't justify a bit over $100/mo? What is your handle: $50/mo? If you wager any real money wouldn't you want the best there is even if you only play weedends and 2-3 tracks?

Some are manually entering data! What is your time worth?

The cost of a top notch program will pay for itself in 2-3 wagers. Many of them are month to month. Strap one on and see 4 yourself. If it doesn't yield you're out a hun & you can go back to finding the least expensive, questionable quality offering out there.

[JustRalph]

In looking at the offerings for the $100-$130/mo range you have the HDW family of products, all of which are excellent. I've heard that JCapper is equally as strong though don't know his price structure.

So some of you loons are going to say that for some of the best data out there for every track running you can't justify a bit over $100/mo? What is your handle: $50/mo? If you wager any real money wouldn't you want the best there is even if you only play weedends and 2-3 tracks?

Some are manually entering data! What is your time worth?

The cost of a top notch program will pay for itself in 2-3 wagers. Many of them are month to month. Strap one on and see 4 yourself. If it doesn't yield you're out a hun & you can go back to finding the least expensive, questionable quality offering out there.

Great post!.............right on.................

I don't play but one weekend a month or so anymore. But I am working on getting back to being able to play every day if I want.

I tried out HTR/HDW stuff and loved it. I will go back and am salivating over Jcapper as we speak............the future looks bright............

getting back to the thread topic.............

If you have some old stuff you want to run.........never forget that old computers can be had for a song and can be networked with very little work..............so instead of trying to make something old work on a new platform.........it is really easy and inexpensive to add an old box to your setup..........fyi

[shoelessjoe]

Bigmack,I really dont see why you have to resort to calling people names just because they have a difference of opinion.If you cant do so then why post a response at all.It must make you really feel like a big man to do so on a horse racing bulletin board.If that's the case I really feel sorry for you.Shoeless

[bigmack]

In hindsight I retract loons and should have opted for extremely misguided & penny pinching.

[shoelessjoe]

Editor's Note: Sorry Shoeless, but posts like these are only appropriate in off-topic....

[JimG]

If one builds a product that works with the "daily" pricing model, the software developer gets no cut of the downloads. The only exception to that (that I am aware of) is the Allways program with their "special" data files.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

As I understand it, when RDSS is sold later this year, it will use specialized Trackmaster files which can be bought on a per card basis or monthly basis, including results files. I believe the author of the program, Ted Craven, will receive some compensation regardless of whether a user occasionally plays or downloads everyday.

[shoelessjoe]

Just because you spend a lot of money for data doesnt make it a good program,putting in the right pacelines is what counts.Shoeless

[Dave Schwartz]

As I understand it, when RDSS is sold later this year, it will use specialized Trackmaster files which can be bought on a per card basis or monthly basis, including results files. I believe the author of the program, Ted Craven, will receive some compensation regardless of whether a user occasionally plays or downloads everyday.

That may well be true. If that is the case, then that makes two data vendors that handle daily files and pay commissions.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[jfurgie]

I only joined this forum a few days ago & just read this thread for the 1st time.


I cant believe that nobody here has ever tried Quick Horse.

They have a free 30 day trial offer & it's $49.00/yr if you decide to keep it.

The initial download consists of charts of every horse in every race race at every track from 2004-present. The data is stored in a file not to be accessed, but holding for statistical data. Every day you get a free download of yesterday's results & all entries available.

The way it works is that you can build your own data columns & incorporate them in a method you can create.

For example you can build one column to record the horses finish position in his last race, 2 races back or 3 or you can take the average of as many races as you wish. The data available includes fractional times, beaten lengths, distance, racing positions at different calls, pace ratings and on & on too many to mention. You create your own system. Build 10, 15, 20, whatever columns. Each method you create can use up to 8 of you columns. Put a bunch of methods together & test them.
For example, You create a method using 8 columns that you created. You select a track & go to the feature called SUPERTUNE. You select win % & $2 win on selection 1 & 2.
Then you select the number of back races you want to analyze for that track, say 50. Using your system the software starts looking at results(starting from the most recent) & calculating & displaying win% roi & profit. At the end of the analysis, say the win % is 47, the super tune feature kicks in & weights your columns for the best possible results. when the analysis is done, the new weighted averages of your columns may show a win % of 58%.

You build, create & test & every morning you get the free download to keep data current.

Lets say you come up with a method that back tests a win % of 75 & an roi of 30% at Philadelphia Park. After you do your free download, you select Philadelpha & then click todays race. Then select the method you want to use. Race 1 entries pop up & are sorted from top pick down, and so on as you click forward to every race on the day's card.

Like any other software it's not perfect, but check out the late DD last night @ MNR. One of my methods picked both horses on top. I didnt play the double, but at least I had the winners. It only picked one other winner from the 1st choice, but 7 of the 9 races were won by a top 3 choice

ITS A FREE TRIAL & FREE DOWNLOADS. Why not give it a try. You be the creator.
P.S. I have no affiliation with them or any other Company. I'm retired & just passing on info

[Kelso]

I cant believe that nobody here has ever tried Quick Horse.

They have a free 30 day trial offer & it's $49.00/yr if you decide to keep it.

The initial download consists of charts of every horse in every race race at every track from 2004-present. The data is stored in a file not to be accessed, but holding for statistical data. Every day you get a free download of yesterday's results & all entries available.


jfurgie,
Thank you for sharing your experience and opinion ... but my "too good to be true" antenna is percolating from it. Will appreciate your answers to some questions that arose as I read your post:

How long have you used Quick Horse?

How much of your decision-making process is influenced/controlled by the program?

How many bets do you typically place from it monthly. (Don't care about $ size.)

Have you found it to be especially strong with any particular types of tracks/horses/races/pools/etc?

What do you not like about the program?

Has the program been consistantly profitable for you?

What is the program's data source? (This is the tender part. $49/year? :eek: )

Can you manually input data, if you choose?

If you miss a day (or more) of downloads, can you retrieve them later?

How far in advance are "today's" entries available for downloading?


Thank you, again, for sharing. I am looking forward to your responses.

[shoelessjoe]

Jfurgie,More posts are needed such as yours sharing info not just trying to call people names who have a difference in opinion.Shoeless

[Sailwolf]

Shoeless-

There is software out there that does not cost $129 per month for download. Even better, there is software that allows manually entering the data-just like the old days.

And what do you do?

[jfurgie]

Shoeless Joe.............thank you

Kelso.. I've been using Quick Horse for 3 years. The data base on the initial download comes from their data base which contains the running lines of every horse in every race at every track in North America from 2004 till the day you do the download.

The program, in & of itself, is only a tool for YOU to create your own system with the ability to test it over past results for any track you use. REMEMBER.. the 1st download creates a 2.5gig data base of every race thats been run for the last 46 months. So there is nothing inherent in the software to influence anybody.

Right now, being retired, I bet about 50 races per day, that would be 350/week, roughly 1400/month.

The software is as good as your ability to figure out what handicapping angles you think are important, build data columns with specific elements, then combine your data columns into a method that you can test over and over at any & every track in america. YOU ARE THE PROGRAMMER !
QUICK HORSE is the tool & the data base.

I have spent 100's if not 1000's of hours creating columns & methods & running tests. I finally hit on a combination that can narrow 85% of all races down to 4 contenders & then I can just consentrate on those 4 horses. But that's me. Many people out there are much brighter than myself and could use this tool to create a super system.

There is no need to manually input data. The data is an accumulation of charts provided by TSN. The daily free download goes to the TSN website, pulls the racing lines of all races run that are not already in you data base & all entries that would be visable if you went to their site.

So lets say you miss downloading for 4 or 5 days. Since the data comes from TSN, you will pick up as many of the past days results as you can see if you go to their site & click results. Typically, TSN holds 8-10 days of results that are accessable.

When y'all (result of a Bronx boy living in GA) talk about software, what better software than one that lets YOU be the creator of the system & provides all the data & tools necessary to do it.
DOES IT WORK ? NO..if you cant put together handicapping elements that provide selections that win, but YES if your reasonably savy & can come up with a method that can narrow races down to 2,3 or 4 contenders 75%-85% of the time.

I've had some monster long shots come up in my top 4.
For example, Hawthorn has run 29 races this current meet. The method I built & use has shown 27 of the winning horses in the top 4. NOW--- I didn't catch 27 winners because I'm not bright enough to pick the 1 horse out of the 4 100% of the time. But I did catch 12 winners in the 29 races (5 of them yesterday). Friday at MEA MarysDixieTune @35-1 was the top pick.
BUT YOU SEE, that's MY method. It's unique because it is the result of hours of research & something I built.
Quick Horse is the tool that lets you put your brain to work & create YOUR THING.
Hope I answered your questions. OH, and yes, it is $49.95/year if you decide to keep it after the 30 day trial period.

[jfurgie]

P.S- I know my post sounds like an ad, but, believe me, I have no connection with the owners of this software. Its from a company called Quick Reckoning out of Oregon or Washington State. I was a Materials Manager before retiering, not a software geek. I've always been a track bum.

It could be a bit confusing to navigate at first, but I have a lot of time on my hands & would be willing to provide help. If you download the software, send me a private message & I'll reply.

[socantra]

I looked at Quickhorse several years ago, and it was the beginnings of a fairly impressive piece of work. Mike Groves (I believe) had a fairly successful program for dog racing called QuickDog and decided to move into the horse racing market. He knew little about horse racing and I suspect has found it a much more difficult transition than he thought.

Subscription to the program of $50 a year. Uses Bris or TSN data files and originally set up to use free data off entries and charts. I don't know how well that has worked out since the charts went pdf.

He is a competent programmer and very responsive, and I rhought it showed some promise. i was into other projects and decided that at that time, it required too much of a commitment and learning curve for both me and the programmer.

I bailed. Apparently the programmer and jfurgie didn't

[jfurgie]

YES.. it does take a big time comitment because the 5 or 6 methods that come with the software are not very useful.

Everyone has their own strategy. Mine was to create a slew of columns representing mid fractions, finish positions, beaten lengths, times adjusted to 8f, 2nd & 3rd call running positions & a few others. I did it individually for last race, 2nd race back, 3rd race back, average of 2 races, average of 3 races, etc..

I then started to create methods using a random set of 8 columns. Tested them, altered them, went from track to track, spent hours, days, weeks.

Finally I came up with 3 methods that I Supertune for each of the tracks I will play today. I select the best result of the 3 for that particular track looking for the 4 top contenders.

Example: today @ PHA one of my methods had produced a winner 84% of the time in the last 3 days considering the top 4. At CRC 90.91% of the time, at DEL 87.8% & at KD 85%.

So I list the 4 horses for each race & then look for value considering only those 4. Not every day is a winning day. Sometimes I let one slide because I'm stupid. BUT I know that I have the percentages in my favor, I just need to make the right choices. I've hit some monster long shots.

It's a game & we're all on an ego trip looking to hit the big one. Where else could you have so much fun.

YES, the data on the daily free downloads comes from TSN & it works fine. Mike is a great guy & very helpful in guiding you through some of the procedures if you get stuck. He responds to e-mails pretty fast.

[jfurgie]

my best value in the 1st @ PHA is #8

[jfurgie]

Good start...a winner

[ryesteve]

A new user who immediately begins by touting a piece of software sometimes raises suspicions... which you may have sensed yourself by your unprompted post assuring us that you have nothing to do with the publishers of this software.

However, following that up with a "winning" selection that was posted after the race in question went off, certainly isn't going to help matters in the least.

[njcurveball]

my best value in the 1st @ PHA is #8

You have a great set-up if you can bet after the race is run. If this program allows you do that, then deal me in! :ThmbUp:

[harnesslover]

In looking at the offerings for the $100-$130/mo range you have the HDW family of products, all of which are excellent. I've heard that JCapper is equally as strong though don't know his price structure.

So some of you loons are going to say that for some of the best data out there for every track running you can't justify a bit over $100/mo? What is your handle: $50/mo? If you wager any real money wouldn't you want the best there is even if you only play weedends and 2-3 tracks?

Some are manually entering data! What is your time worth?

The cost of a top notch program will pay for itself in 2-3 wagers. Many of them are month to month. Strap one on and see 4 yourself. If it doesn't yield you're out a hun & you can go back to finding the least expensive, questionable quality offering out there.

More expensive doesn't always mean better. There are plenty of high priced pieces of software out there that are trash. I don't think if someone wants to use cheaper data files, they are a 'loon'.

[richrosa]

A new user who immediately begins by touting a piece of software sometimes raises suspicions... which you may have sensed yourself by your unprompted post assuring us that you have nothing to do with the publishers of this software.

However, following that up with a "winning" selection that was posted after the race in question went off, certainly isn't going to help matters in the least.

The fact that the software being touted "might" be using unlicensed copyrighted past performances as part of its database, as another poster mentioned, doesn't help either.

[shanta]

A new user who immediately begins by touting a piece of software sometimes raises suspicions... which you may have sensed yourself by your unprompted post assuring us that you have nothing to do with the publishers of this software.

However, following that up with a "winning" selection that was posted after the race in question went off, certainly isn't going to help matters in the least.

how bout a 70 dollar winner(see selections area) along with another nice one posted hours before the card ran by same poster?

New "shooter" comes in throwing haymakers that connect. RESPECT

Quickhorse has been out for over 6 years man. If they were doing something illegal(regarding data) you think they would still be around?? Come on.

Color me convinced that both the software and "Furgie" are the real deal. Believe he also stated that HARD work and MONTHS of examination of various couplings of factors were involved to get him on the plus side of the ledger.

Welcome Furgie :ThmbUp:

[njcurveball]

New "shooter" comes in throwing haymakers that connect. RESPECT

:ThmbUp:

Totally agree and also you would agree there is no reason to post a winner after the race is run.

[jfurgie]

My good friend who is so suspicious--I posted that when the horses were loading the gate. Look at the time of the post & go to TSN & look at the off time.


I have no motive other that to make people aware of a data base that they can use to create their own system . Quick Horse is NOT a SYSTEM. IT'S A TOOL.

I live in GA a retired 70 year old with no agendas.

[jfurgie]

Thanks shanta. Everyone is a sceptic. I would never pull a stunt like that.

[harnesslover]

My good friend who is so suspicious--I posted that when the horses were loading the gate. Look at the time of the post & go to TSN & look at the off time.


I have no motive other that to make people aware of a data base that they can use to create their own system . Quick Horse is NOT a SYSTEM. IT'S A TOOL.

I live in GA a retired 70 year old with no agendas.

Don't mind that 'guy'. He rarely seems to have anything positive to say about anything or anyone.

[jfurgie]

well, i see what you mean. TSN erroneously shows off time as 12:25 It actually went off about 12:26:30. When did you ever see a race at Philly go off exactly at post time????

[jfurgie]

Delaware Race 1$-3.40$129.98https://www.ehorsex.com/media/pendplus.gif (javascript: void(0);) 2007-09-24 12:33:50Philadelphia Race 1$8.87$133.38

[shanta]

Totally agree and also you would agree there is no reason to post a winner after the race is run.

absolutely

[46zilzal]

Totally agree and also you would agree there is no reason to post a winner after the race is run.

Bull, that is like saying you didn't learn a thing or two by watching Boise State beat Oklahoma on that last trick play. Anything, absolutely anything, is learned by a review. Why is history a REQUIRED subject at all levels of school? Because understanding a principle takes multiple examples in RETROSPECT. ONLY a review garners those principles worth learning.

Go to ANY software support and how do they teach you? HISTORY.

Put your ego in a sock for a minute and come to learn.

[jfurgie]

Zilzal, I wish I understood what you just said.

There is no way I can prove that my post came as the gate was loading, so believe whatever you want. I copied & pasted an $8.87 profit in the 1st at PHA. I'm penney ante. I bet $1.60 to win on the e-horse exchange & they take a small commission. Things haven't gone as well until now in the 6th I did hit the 7 for another $1.60.

I totally enjoy this game & not in it to get rich. Just a way for an old man to pass the time away.

[46zilzal]

Zilzal, I wish I understood what you just said.


When you LEARN something it is done by a review of what you did. Ride a bike for the first time, fall off, learn by that, so the 2nd time you don't fall off as fast, until, BY REVIEWING what you did (right and wrong), you LEARN what you are doing.

Handicapping and wagering are done THE SAME WAY. Present a situation which created an instructive logic, review how that logic was synthesized, UNDERSTAND how to approach similar situations as they are confronted. Don't review, and that instructive situation has no worth and becomes lost.

When egos interfere with learning I just laugh at the wasted time and effort. People come here to EXCHANGE ideas. That has to be done by constructing a logical based explanation used to arrive at a conclusion. THAT is how logic works, by review.

[njcurveball]

Bull, that is like saying you didn't learn a thing or two by watching Boise State beat Oklahoma on that last trick play. Anything, absolutely anything, is learned by a review. .

I like #5 in the 5th at Delaware. Time to learn my friend! :jump:

[njcurveball]

#7 in the 6th at Phila looks like a good one too! :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

Put your ego in a sock for a minute and come to learn.

:lol:

[46zilzal]

I like #5 in the 5th at Delaware. Time to learn my friend!
Presenting NO logic ranks this information the same as reading tea leaves or reading the horoscope for the day.

A FLAT EMPTY statement which teaches NOTHING other than your ability to read results.

[njcurveball]

Presenting NO logic ranks this information the same as reading tea leaves or reading the horoscope for the day.

A FLAT EMPTY statement.

Ok, MY BEST VALUE was that horse. NOW do you understand? :jump:

[46zilzal]

A FLAT EMPTY statement which teaches NOTHING other than your ability to read results.

[46zilzal]

Years ago, I posted an angle I discovered in a REVIEW of hundreds of races at Philly park and posted same on the musterbator's board (a.k.a. V/DC Messenger).

The moderator, stuck in the dogma that you MUST only do things this way and that, went on and on how it would not work without so much as a week's worth of objective evaluation, UNTIL an enterprising fellow tried what I had proposed and came up with the following results on an angle ONLY DISCOVERED BY REVIEW.


"re: Wed Jun 16, 2004 Subject: Findings on Top 5 EPR @ Philly

The last 2 days I have went back & reworked some of the Philly cards using T's guidelines for the boxing top 5 EPR in the trifecta. I don't have all the Philly cards, but these are the ones I had so I am not picking & choosing.

As most everyone agreed, it does take a hefty bankroll and veins with ice water sometimes, but the angle did show profitable in my testing. I am not near as savy as T & he may have been able to turn a couple of my losers into winners or passes. I used only sprints, babies, claiming & dirt. I pass on Allowances as better horses are running there (not the cheap speed):

Total for 8 racing days
Profit of $2391.20"

[ryesteve]

Don't mind that 'guy'. He rarely seems to have anything positive to say about anything or anyone.
Why the quotes around 'guy'? Is my gender subject to question because I pointed out the obvious: that people will be suspicious of brand-new posters who past-post winners? You're a new poster as well (despite claiming overly-familiar knowledge of my posting patterns) so perhaps you haven't been down this road before.

And to jfurgie, nothing personal intended. I'm not even saying you didn't have the horse legitimately. All I meant is exactly what I said: posting after the off-time is not helpful.

[shanta]

Years ago, I posted an angle I discovered in a REVIEW of hundreds of races at Philly park and posted same on the musterbator's board (a.k.a. V/DC Messenger).


Just out of curiosity Tim.

Is this the same "musterbator board" that you BEGGED to get back on a month or so back after he shut it down to any new members?

NUMEROUS emails to same admin by you wanting back in? Is this the same person ??????

You should author a book sometime soon. For real

take care
Richie

[46zilzal]

If you could find a single BEGGING post I would like to see it.

I find it extremely instructive that dissent is so dangerous even in the handicapping arena. Partner that with the logic of hundreds of examples to substantiate that dissent makes the musterbators look a bit, well, silly.

Have to get rid of that dangerous force!!

[harnesslover]

Why the quotes around 'guy'? .

I was referring to a different post, one that is accusing him as posting his pick after the race went off, not you. Sorry for the confusion.

I didn't want to have to get specific, as this person seems to get into it with everyone.

[jfurgie]

Talk about posting picks after the race was wun, njcurveball picks when those winners were back in the barn & being watered down.

[shanta]

If you could find a single BEGGING post I would like to see it.

I find it extremely instructive that dissent is so dangerous even in the handicapping arena. Partner that with the logic of hundreds of examples to substantiate that dissent makes the musterbators look a bit, well, silly.

Have to get rid of that dangerous force!!

email not post Tim. How many did you send to the admin of your self described "musterbator board" wanting back in? 5??

Write a book on how we all should think about things and you know best because you "work in the industry". Seriously i will advance order ok? you can cover such topics as
1) Early is the ONLY way to go. Fools bet other than early
2) Why pros are ALL quiet and to themselves

Make sure to write it in your "know it all" style and include your condescending attitude too ok?

Otherwise we might mistake it for a book written by a Fotias or Caroll.

Remember when you point a finger at someone there are 4 pointing right back at you "brother".

[ryesteve]

I was referring to a different post, one that is accusing him as posting his pick after the race went off, not you. Sorry for the confusion.
gotcha... no prob...

[njcurveball]

Talk about posting picks after the race was wun, njcurveball picks when those winners were back in the barn & being watered down.


When you LEARN something it is done by a review of what you did.

[richrosa]

Just out of curiosity Tim.

Is this the same "musterbator board" that you BEGGED to get back on a month or so back after he shut it down to any new members?

NUMEROUS emails to same admin by you wanting back in? Is this the same person ??????

You should author a book sometime soon. For real

take care
Richie

Is that the "slap on the back" / "attaboy" board?

Why would Tim even need to "get back" on the board? Did he possibly disagree with the Gods on that forum and was tossed?

Like I always say, the conversation on PA is much better than reading 6,000 posts thanking the moderators for being alive.

[46zilzal]

Like I always say, the conversation on PA is much better than reading 6,000 posts thanking the moderators for being alive.
Bravo Rich!!

I always admired the way you think. Folks, this fellow and I are kindred spirits of thinking OUTSIDE of the box.

[shanta]

Is that the "slap on the back" / "attaboy" board?

Why would Tim even need to "get back" on the board?

Not sure thats why I ask why over 5 emails were sent to the admin BEGGING to get back on. Sure seems strange man.

Very very strange. But heck what do i know. maybe 4 years of college is needed to understand motives of a doctor! :)

Very strange set of events man.

[46zilzal]

email not post Tim. How many did you send to the admin of your self described "musterbator board" wanting back in? 5??


ZERO.

I have always enjoyed dissenting against dogma. Seeing others getting their 'knickers in a twist" as to things only being ONE way, was the challenge. An entertaining one at that.

There never is one way to tie your shoes, drive a car, report on astronomy, but when dissent, logically based and with multiple objective examples, is censored, that is when the musterbator (thanks Dr. Wayne Dyer for that definition) was brought into use.

Denying the reality of reproducible data is the very definition of the closed mind. Let's see, I was bounced the last time for posting about 5 to 6 examples of horses winning after being beaten several times greater than the golden rule 7.5 lengths which the DOGMA said was the UNDISPUTED RULE. Well, example upon example quite literally said otherwise. To deny that data, which anyone could review, qualified the musterbator title.

Rules, and their overt application, limit innovation. If that message was missed, I'll state it again. We are only limited by imagination and the enlightened among us are always open to challenge since nothing is without change and modification.

[richrosa]

Not sure thats why I ask why over 5 emails were sent to the admin BEGGING to get back on. Sure seems strange man.

Very very strange. But heck what do i know. maybe 4 years of college is needed to understand motives of a doctor! :)

Very strange set of events man.


You know, man. Was he kicked off? Why?

In the arena of ideas, he sure has you beat. From the looks of it, it seems he didn't agree with you and your friends, and you got him bounced. Is that true, man?

[shanta]

ZERO.

I have always enjoyed dissenting against dogma. Seeing others getting their 'knickers in a twist" as to things only being ONE way, was the challenge. An entertaining one at that.

There never is one way to tie your shoes, drive a car, report on astronomy, but when dissent, logically based and with multiple objective examples, is censored, that is when the musterbator (thanks Dr. Wayne Dyer for that definition) was brought into use.

Denying the reality of reproducible data is the very definition of the closed mind. Let's see, I was bounced the last time for posting about 5 to 6 examples of horses winning after being beaten several times greater than the golden rule 7.5 lengths which the DOGMA said was the UNDISPUTED RULE. Well, example upon example quite literally said otherwise. To deny that data, which anyone could review, qualified the musterbator title.

Rules, and their overt application, limit innovation. If that message was missed, I'll state it again. We are only limited by imagination and the enlightened among us are always open to challenge since nothing is without change and modification.


Bullshit.
You made a cheap ass shot at a close friend who had NOTHING to do with this thread in any way shape or form Tim.

It was a fucking low blow at one of the kindest men there is and who has NEVER uttered a bad word about anyone. Yet you felt the need to show your superiority and throw your wise ass remarks in also.

You and anyone else can say whatever you want about me man. I could care less.

When you bring good folks in like my friend Bill I am calling you out for what you are. A low life troll and all the money and education in the world won't change that.

Ciao
Richie

[46zilzal]

This, and all the other boards out here, are about IDEAS. Ideas have authors, no doubt, but to limit their exposure, here on anywhere else, just because they don't fit some pre-conceived image of an unchanging dogmatic "the Gods has spoken" reality is very intellectually dishonest. Always has, always will be.

[shoelessjoe]

Richie no sense arguing with Rosa and 46 Zigzal it accomplishes nothing ,most of us know that you have more knowledge then both of them put together.Shoeless

[richrosa]

I think Richie knows more then the both of you put together.Shoeless

"Attaboy!!" Do you know me?

[shoelessjoe]

No and Im glad I dont.By the way you are really doing one heck of a public relations job for your software.Shoeless

[shoelessjoe]

Jfurgie thanks for sharing and dont let the people here intimidate you,some of them dont have anything else better to do.Shoeless

[richrosa]

No and Im glad I dont.By the way you are really doing one heck of a public relations job for your software.Shoeless

Shoeless,

You miss the point. Richie has a habit of lashing out against anyone he disagrees with, especially on his board. He's rudely attacked me personally on more than one occasion, for no apparent reason, as he's done to many others including Tim. I personally don't appreciate it, and I'm glad that it doesn't happen here.

Thankfully Richie showed his true colors in his response to Tim.

I'm a fine ambassador for my software. If you knew me better, which you don't, you would understand that.

[njcurveball]

Jfurgie,

I want to publicly apologize to you. I feel now you posted in all good will and my sarcasm with other people should have been taken somewhere else.

Keep up the good job! :ThmbUp:

Jim

[jfurgie]

Thanks for the kind words. If you knew me, you would know that I'm a straight shooter with not a deceptive bone in his body. I just happen to be a 25 year old stuck in a 70 year old body who has loved this game since 1955. Always a $2 bettor. Just love the game for the game.


46zilzal sounds like an intillectual snob that I would run from in any setting. Blah, blah, blah ! Mr. TOTAL BORING !

[JimG]

I just happen to be a 25 year old stuck in a 70 year old body who has loved this game since 1955. Always a $2 bettor. Just love the game for the game.


Stay that way and hopefully you will live to be 100. Welcome to the board.

Jim

[shoelessjoe]

Rich,I happen to know Richie very well and he's like a brother to me ,if he lashed out at you he must have had a good resaon.He has really been kind to me and I have learned a lot from him about handicapping.Shoeless

[shoelessjoe]

Jfurgie Im 56 years old and feel like Im 70 .Shoeless

[richrosa]

Rich,I happen to know Richie very well and he's like a brother to me ,if he lashed out at you he must have had a good resaon.He has really been kind to me and I have learned a lot from him about handicapping.Shoeless


Shoeless,

I'm sure he's a great guy. We all need more friends. However, to assume he had a great reason would be your omission. Since you trust Binder, ask him, he'll tell you what Richie did. Obviously, I haven't forgotten about it.

I might suspect that the reason you and he get along so well because you agree with him. I hope you always do so that you don't lose a friend.

[46zilzal]

In most arenas, ideas stand or fall on their merits (substantiated or repudiated by objective data analysis) not via being "colored" by knowing from whom they originated. That is the reality that makes up the majority of the world not in the sequestered shallows of the closed minded. A good idea has a life of it's own no matter the author.

Ideas are only as good as our current state of knowledge BUT they all change over time. Hereclitus said it best; "You can never step in the same river twice." Any new discovery that directly negates yesterday's state of understanding prompts the natural evolution of an idea. Having a scientific background makes one understand that all too well.

[SCSAYS]

Are you the same canadien moron that posts on the 3 memeber sartin alums board under tim dyspegia ?

[46zilzal]

posted membership there is right in this screen capture. If I am not mistaken, doesn't that list almost 450?

[SCSAYS]

admit it you have the same 3 posters.

[Indulto]

Thanks for the kind words. If you knew me, you would know that I'm a straight shooter with not a deceptive bone in his body. I just happen to be a 25 year old stuck in a 70 year old body who has loved this game since 1955. Always a $2 bettor. Just love the game for the game.JF,
Since I've been waiting for more than half a century to find out what I'll be when I grow up, I appreciate your enthusiasm for a game which has changed considerably since we started. ;) 46zilzal sounds like an intillectual snob that I would run from in any setting. Blah, blah, blah ! Mr. TOTAL BORING !I think your assessment of 46 is premature. I don't get to meet the posters here in person, so I can only draw conclusions about them from what they post. I think if you bother to check out some of 46's prior posts, you might find some of them informative and his opinions consistently based on reason, though as SignUpKing pointed out, different people may draw different conclusions from the same data. 46 speaks his mind freely on racing as well as non-racing topics, and consequently takes a lot of heat, yet I haven't seen him descend to the name-calling employed by some who disagree with him for reasons they can't or won't articulate.

I don't doubt your software or your intentions, but there's no need to accumulate detractors faster than the average bear ... or than you want to. :cool:

[jfurgie]

good point. wont do it any more !

[shoelessjoe]

Indulto,46 Zilzal has done plenty of name calling on the other site I was on.Shoeless

[46zilzal]

Indulto,46 Zilzal has done plenty of name calling on the other site I was on.
Irrelevant conjecture without substantiation.

[jfurgie]

You gotta admit, he has a way with words.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow, did this thread deteriorate....we have ways of dealing with this....

Damn....