Federal Intervention-Signal Wars

[betovernetcapper]

I think the current state of affairs is bad for the sport and I'm not seeing very much that I find encouraging.
There is a basis in which the Fed's could review the situation and establish guidelines-procedures and some type of oversight.
I know this is distasteful but anyone have any thoughts?

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg

[njcurveball]

Who is the guy in the pic? Is that you?

[betovernetcapper]

Who is the guy in the pic? Is that you?

Hell no-That's Senator Jon Kyl from Arizona

[njcurveball]

Hell no-That's Senator Jon Kyl from Arizona


HOW was anyone supposed to figure that one out?

[betovernetcapper]

Sorry NJ-just never thought I looked like Senator Kyl :)

[DJofSD]

You're going to have to show how it is a federal issue and how it is not something the individual states have a legal right control.

[betovernetcapper]

If the Feds can regulate alcohol, tobacco and firearms, then they can regulate this too.

[Scav]

Do you really want the federal governmnet involved in this? They screw everything up. We could end up with no online wagering if they get involved.

As I said when this first started, the only way things will get accomplished is by taking money out of their pocket. When they see a 10% handle decline because people refuse to use four ADW's or a 30% handle decrease on one day, their eyes will become as wide as eyes can. Until then, these efforts, while nobel, have minimal effect. Actually, I should reword this. This have been effective, but for the turnaround that you are asking for, hurting them is the only answer (financially obviously). I will be pleasantly surprised if anything is straighten out by the end of the year, let alone the end of 2008.

All Daruty was doing with that conference call was calming you down, when he actually had his putter in his hand trying to work on draining his 12 foot putts.

[betovernetcapper]

Do you really want the federal governmnet involved in this? They screw everything up. We could end up with no online wagering if they get involv ed
I think that is a real possibility. No matter how it comes out it's going to hurt TrackNet and TVG millions.
Dave and Scott can end this thing in an hour-but if they won't fix it, should the feds step in?

I don't know for sure-what do you guys think?
If they can't deal with each other maybe they can deal with this guy
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg

[Scav]

I think you get the feds involved and they will see a weak industry that they can figure out a way to get even more taxes thus hurting us more. They will probably want a federal takeout for all tracks when said and done. For all I know they already have it.

[SignUpKing]

You're going to have to show how it is a federal issue and how it is not something the individual states have a legal right control.

The issue involves "interstate commerce", so if the Feds want to get involved, they can.

[betovernetcapper]

I think you get the feds involved and they will see a weak industry that they can figure out a way to get even more taxes thus hurting us more. They will probably want a federal takeout for all tracks when said and done. For all I know they already have it.
Yeah-but it's not just money if the Feds become involved every little detail of the sport may be subject to oversight.
************************************************** *****
On the other side if we do nothing signal wars will destroy the industry
************************************************** *****
Should action be taken and when?

[SignUpKing]

I'd be happy if gambling taxes were ELIMINATED, just like in Canada. As if the "take out" isn't enough.

[PaceAdvantage]

I just don't see why anyone would want Kyl involved in anything that pertains to online wagering. The man has tried many times to SHUT DOWN Internet wagering, and only strong lobbying allowed exemptions for horse racing to be written into his (and other similar) bills.

What you need to do, in my opinion (and I told you this privately) is if you want to involve some higher ups, get someone from a state where income from horse racing comprises a pretty nice chunk of change. Arizona is not such a state. Kentucky is....for starters....

[Kelso]

You're going to have to show how it is a federal issue and how it is not something the individual states have a legal right control.


Signals crossing state lines via wire and/or using federally-licensed spectrum with the satellites?

[MNslappy]

Betovernetcapper, I think this is a brilliant strategy. I think people need to think about this poker game a little bit deeper before they dismiss the idea of getting Kyl involved. If the horseplayers group is looking for an even bigger stick to wield in this fight than showing their ability to affect handle, the prospects of getting Congress involved is about as big a stick as one could hope to swing. And Kyl is perfect, what better way to force the parties into figuring this out on their own--and quickly--than the looming prospect of Mr. Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act himself getting into the mix.

[PaceAdvantage]

Be careful what you wish for.

[alydar]

I just don't see why anyone would want Kyl involved in anything that pertains to online wagering. The man has tried many times to SHUT DOWN Internet wagering, and only strong lobbying allowed exemptions for horse racing to be written into his (and other similar) bills.

What you need to do, in my opinion (and I told you this privately) is if you want to involve some higher ups, get someone from a state where income from horse racing comprises a pretty nice chunk of change. Arizona is not such a state. Kentucky is....for starters....

Finally someone talking common sense. Kyl is not a friend of on-line wagering. He is probably the worst choice of anyone to get involved in this mess. I have been watching this thread and just cannot believe that this man is being brought up at all. Just go look up his history with on line wagering.

As for future actions Pace is right, Kentucky is a great place to start. Continued player actions as a group would be good too. How about another procott.

[Tom]

The LAST thing we need is the feds getting involved.
In case you haven't noticed, they are more inept and corrupt than OTB!

Nothing good can come from fed intervention.

For that matter, what laws are being violated that would require state intervention?

[speedking]

I am 100% against any type of federal, or state; intervention, mediation or regulation.

They are not on our side and would only pursue their own agenda.

speedking

[BillW]

They are not on our side and would only pursue their own agenda.

speedking

Unfortunately, that's the exact problem we have with Tracknet and TVG.

[cj]

Unfortunately, that's the exact problem we have with Tracknet and TVG.

While I agree, government intervention would only make it worse. The takeout on the lottery is 50%!

[BillW]

While I agree, government intervention would only make it worse. The takeout on the lottery is 50%!

I think these clowns are envious of that rake :eek:

[betovernetcapper]

I agree with everyone that getting the Federal government and Senator Kyl involved with this is a terrible idea. It would really hurt the sport, but the current state of affairs is hurting the sport also.
I reluctantly spoke with a very low level person at Senator Kyl's office yesterday. He assured me that if I submitted a report on various online horse wagering problems, it wouldn't get buried. The scary part was how quickly it might be addressed.
TrackNet and TVG might want to consider this.

[stuball]

If we suck the Feds into this we may be sorry they will tax the signal...tax tax tax I don't know about you but I pay enuff now....

Stuball :mad: :ThmbDown:

[Indulto]

IMO a Racing Commissioner's Office is the way to go. Give somebody the authority to deal not only with signal pricing, but uniform regulations as well. The NTRA's failure to accomplish this suggests that some other body representing tracks, horsemen, and (gasp) players needs to be established to fund such an office.

Off the top of my head, potential commissioner candidates might include Bennett Liebman, Steven Crist, Alan Greenspan, and Bill Clinton.

[DJofSD]

BONC, I wonder if you told the parties you've been talking to that the next move is to involve Kyl, etc., what they would say.

[betovernetcapper]

BONC, I wonder if you told the parties you've been talking to that the next move is to involve Kyl, etc., what they would say.

I mentioned it on my webpage-If they don't know already I'm sure they'll know in a few hours.

[HorseRun]

be careful what you wish for (or what you do) getting Kyl involved is a VERY BAD thing.....we dont need any more moral police, telling us how to live our lives and spend our hard earned dollars, why they do other things in mens bathrooms around the country

[ceejay]

I think that if Kyl got his way there'd be no internet horse wagering. I suppose that would make him a good mediator, hating all parties' positions equally.....

[betovernetcapper]

I think that if Kyl got his way there'd be no internet horse wagering. I suppose that would make him a good mediator, hating all parties' positions equally.....

I can't speak for Senator Kyl, but my guess is if the Senator had his way there would be very little wagering of any kind.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg

[Scav]

I can't speak for Senator Kyl, but my guess is if the Senator had his way there would be very little wagering of any kind.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg

Exactly, why would you want to involve someone or give them an 'in' on this? I think patience and a well planned and organized movement with the LA horseman gets it done.

[dylbert]

You're going to have to show how it is a federal issue and how it is not something the individual states have a legal right control.On lunch break, so this is semi-knee jerk response...

Interstate commerce occurs as betting action moves across state lines as track signal and intertrack mutuel betting pools. This permits possible federal action as this would constitute interstate commerce.

It is time for gumbo of rules, regulations and commissions to become standardized. NFL, NBA, and MLB are not governed by multiple sanctioning bodies. Horse racing is not much different from boxing with its multiple organizations.

Gotta run... but this is very, very interesting subject.

[DJofSD]

Interstate commerce occurs as betting action moves across state lines as track signal and intertrack mutuel betting pools. This permits possible federal action as this would constitute interstate commerce.

Are multi-state power ball lotteries federally regulated (just asking, I don't know)?

[Tom]

Good point Dylbert....the Feds use that old state line thing to thier advantage whenever they smell a buck.

[njcurveball]

If the Feds can regulate alcohol, tobacco and firearms, then they can regulate this too.

PLEASE! NO! :mad:

[betovernetcapper]

Betovernetcapper, I think this is a brilliant strategy. I think people need to think about this poker game a little bit deeper before they dismiss the idea of getting Kyl involved. If the horseplayers group is looking for an even bigger stick to wield in this fight than showing their ability to affect handle, the prospects of getting Congress involved is about as big a stick as one could hope to swing. And Kyl is perfect, what better way to force the parties into figuring this out on their own--and quickly--than the looming prospect of Mr. Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act himself getting into the mix.

MNslappy-There is much in what you say :)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg

[njcurveball]

the prospects of getting Congress involved is about as big a stick as one could hope to swing


Well perhaps then you could tell them that a $600 win on a $200 ticket shouldn't have to be a signer?

[betovernetcapper]

NJ-you HTR guys are never satisfied :)

[njcurveball]

NJ-you HTR guys are never satisfied :)

I have great foresight here! I can see a day where I sign for as much money at the track as I put in the tank on the way home! :faint:

That is how much faith I have in congress doing one thing for the horseplayers of this country.

[Scav]

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NO THANKS. The second this guy gets involved is the second that ADW's ALL OVER go away.

[Pace Cap'n]

So, multiple respected posters counseled against involving the Feds, especially Mr. Kyl, and yet BONC did just that. Makes you wonder.

If there was any way to redact my petition signature, I would. Had I known this was to be the outcome, I would have never signed.

I believe Mr. BONC has his own agenda, and it is not necessarily with our best interests at heart.

[MNslappy]

MNslappy-There is much in what you say :)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg


The good cop bad cop in this thread is perfect too by the way. When this is settled go ahead and take credit for it, even if it wasn't entirely intentional. :cool: I see what you're up to and like I said, I think it's sheer genius.

Have you started on the report Kyl's office requested yet? I'm entirely confident that the size and power of the horseplayers group is going to ellicit some quick action on their part and you've already gotten a promise that it won't be buried. Once they see what's going on they won't have any choice but to act.

It's really too bad Daruty and TVG can't get together and hammer this out like men. Well, in lieu of that let's see how they like a game of chicken with the family values wing of the US Senate.

[Indulto]

So, multiple respected posters counseled against involving the Feds, especially Mr. Kyl, and yet BONC did just that. Makes you wonder.

If there was any way to redact my petition signature, I would. Had I known this was to be the outcome, I would have never signed.

I believe Mr. BONC has his own agenda, and it is not necessarily with our best interests at heart.Hey, BONC, I think the adult supervision you requested has finally arrived. ;)

[betovernetcapper]

Guys-any reports that I may or may not create and may or may not submit to any government agency will be submitted under my name only.
Being a sort of slothful person I've not gotten much further than a basic outline and hopefully by the time I complete it this situation will have resolved itself.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg

[Pace Cap'n]

The good cop bad cop in this thread is perfect too by the way. When this is settled go ahead and take credit for it, even if it wasn't entirely intentional. :cool: I see what you're up to and like I said, I think it's sheer genius.

Have you started on the report Kyl's office requested yet? I'm entirely confident that the size and power of the horseplayers group is going to ellicit some quick action on their part and you've already gotten a promise that it won't be buried. Once they see what's going on they won't have any choice but to act.

It's really too bad Daruty and TVG can't get together and hammer this out like men. Well, in lieu of that let's see how they like a game of chicken with the family values wing of the US Senate.

Yeah, I'd put that first paragraph in samll print too. What "good cop" are you referring to?

After this is over, you and BONC will be lucky to be wagering by carrier pigeon.

[Indulto]

The good cop bad cop in this thread is perfect too by the way. When this is settled go ahead and take credit for it, even if it wasn't entirely intentional. :cool: I see what you're up to and like I said, I think it's sheer genius.

Have you started on the report Kyl's office requested yet? I'm entirely confident that the size and power of the horseplayers group is going to ellicit some quick action on their part and you've already gotten a promise that it won't be buried. Once they see what's going on they won't have any choice but to act.

It's really too bad Daruty and TVG can't get together and hammer this out like men. Well, in lieu of that let's see how they like a game of chicken with the family values wing of the US Senate.:lol: :lol:
Very good, MNS.

I don't know about strategy, but it may be a brilliant analogy to treat DragNet and TVG as vampires and use a picture of Kyl as a cross. :ThmbUp:

[betovernetcapper]

Hey, BONC, I think the adult supervision you requested has finally arrived. ;)

Maybe this what people mean when they say "be careful what you wish for" :lol:\ http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg

[Indulto]

Maybe this what people mean when they say "be careful what you wish for" :lol:Better late than never.

It didn't sound to me like Kyl-as-ally is what PA signed on for either and he deserves no small credit for the petition's success as well.

[NoCal Boy]

In as simple as erms as I can say it....Anyone having horse racing's best interests in mind will never involve Jon Kyl in any manner. Keep the Feds away from the Interstate Horse Racing Act.

TVG and TrackNet will eventually cooperate as it is in their best interests to cooperate. The new CA ADW Bill waiting to be signed by Gov. Arnold will help bring them together, as will the superb leadership of Sean Alfortish on this matter. It might be next month or 2008, but it will happen.

Now that Arlington is over, the next premier track for Tracknet is not until Churchill starts up in early November. Hollywood is a ???, but this weekend Roger Stein intimated a track (or 2) would be signing up as TVG exclusive in CA and Hollywood Park and Bay Meadows fit the bill. This does NOT mean ful exclusivity. The devil is in the details if this occurs and it would not surprise me to find out that sub-license fees were different than at present making it ecoomically feasible for all to take it. Then the quid pro quo starts with Tracknet.

Maybe a pipe dream, but it makes sense. Especially now that twinspires.com wants in to CA ADW.

[HorseRun]

i am telling you this Pandoras box was opened once before when Kyl was looking to put his morals onto others, and i am no liberal by the way...we were lucky enough to get horse racing to skate thru by a thin thread last time....if you open that box again, it will not be controllable or end up the way you may like the outcome to be....perhaps a big stick crashing over everyones head would be poetic justice if TVG, Tracknet, Magna, UBET, etc. would lose all access to ADW and 21st technology, i would probably crack up laughing ,but other than perhaps UBET i cant think of a bigger loser in that scenario than us , the wagering public and then i would cry....let KYL worry about illegal immigrants crossing his border and/or which republican senator is in hot water this month, but believe me we do NOT want his input

[Indulto]

In as simple as erms as I can say it....Anyone having horse racing's best interests in mind will never involve Jon Kyl in any manner. Keep the Feds away from the Interstate Horse Racing Act.

TVG and TrackNet will eventually cooperate as it is in their best interests to cooperate. The new CA ADW Bill waiting to be signed by Gov. Arnold will help bring them together, as will the superb leadership of Sean Alfortish on this matter. It might be next month or 2008, but it will happen.

Now that Arlington is over, the next premier track for Tracknet is not until Churchill starts up in early November. Hollywood is a ???, but this weekend Roger Stein intimated a track (or 2) would be signing up as TVG exclusive in CA and Hollywood Park and Bay Meadows fit the bill. This does NOT mean ful exclusivity. The devil is in the details if this occurs and it would not surprise me to find out that sub-license fees were different than at present making it ecoomically feasible for all to take it. Then the quid pro quo starts with Tracknet.

Maybe a pipe dream, but it makes sense. Especially now that twinspires.com wants in to CA ADW.It will be up to the horsemen to prevent the tracks from making such agreements. Why shouldn't they -- rather than TVG or DragNet -- pocket the difference in signal fee?

BM is done after 2008 and HOL may be also. What long-term interest does Fancher have to protect? Meanwhile he will prolong TVG's recalcitrance in the process.

Waiting on "The Terminator" for a good result, are you? ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

You guys do get what BONC is trying to do, right? He's trying to put a scare into the Signal War participants in order to get them to resolve this on their own. He's hanging the prospect of Kyl over their heads.

I have to be honest and tell you that I'd be shocked if Kyl expressed any interest in this issue whatsoever. But that's just me.

[jillybeans]

Scott Daruty, Kirk Brooks, Bob Evans, Frank Stronach, through their incompetence, ignorance, and unwarranted arrogance, will probably have the Feds drive the final nail into horse racings coffin. To bet a track owned or operated by either Churchill Downs or Magna Entertainment is to support greed, corruption, defiance, etc.

[Indulto]

You guys do get what BONC is trying to do, right? He's trying to put a scare into the Signal War participants in order to get them to resolve this on their own. He's hanging the prospect of Kyl over their heads.

I have to be honest and tell you that I'd be shocked if Kyl expressed any interest in this issue whatsoever. But that's just me.I’m sure the signal hoarders are shaking in their boots. It would be like putting someone else’s pit bull in your yard to scare off prowlers and then not being able to leave the house or let the kids play in the yard.

It wouldn't surprise me if Daruty now reads this board for relaxation and laughs at what is in danger of becoming the headless horseplayer movement; losing momentum rather than siezing the moment. Heads-up, horsplayers. This isn't the Legend of Sheepy Follow.

Does anybody know if TVG's agreement with NYRA automatically renews if they keep the franchise? NYRA needed TVG's money to pay back the horsemen. Does Fancher want/need similar incentives for BM and HOL? Is TVG willing and able to provide them? Does CDI's relationship with HOL imply DragNet has to get in there somehow?

How could Fancher be influenced to fight exclusivity at HOL and BM? Since he only plans to run one more year, he's got little to lose by experimenting with open access to his signals and lots to gain if we're right that more ADWs contributing at a fair price would increase handle.

Wouldn't Sen Yee's district be rewarded for his efforts by a substantial increase in BM's handle? Would we be willing to procott BM (and/or HOL) if they did open up their signal? Wouldn't increased handle translate into higher purses and better fields there? Could BM actually go out in a blaze of glory? :cool:

I think it's time to hit the hay. ;)

[Kelso]

Begin by firing this jerk:

(Thoroughbred Racing Associations executive vice president Chris Scherf) “It’s a slow progression,” Scherf said. “We’re not going to solve the problem this year, and we’re not going to solve the problem next year.”

An industry that has no interest in guaranteeing transparently honest pools is just begging for Kyl to show them how it's done. He'll probably begin by telling 'em they can't accept any more off-track wagers into their on-track pools.

[betovernetcapper]

(Thoroughbred Racing Associations executive vice president Chris Scherf) “It’s a slow progression,” Scherf said. “We’re not going to solve the problem this year, and we’re not going to solve the problem next year.”

For an industry that's depends so much on speed, these ___-_____ seem to have a a lot of reasons for moving slowly. I'm not saying Senator Kyl doesn't have his flaws, but we would have industry transparency rapidly.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/beherethen/jk_official.jpg