Rags out for the rest of year

[JPinMaryland]

Hairline fracture, right front pastern. Per Christ blog.

[46zilzal]

Hairline fracture, right front pastern. Per Christ blog.
Noticed her head was looking out away from the rail.

Little girl gives her all every race. NO ONE can deny that.

[joanied]

:( OH-No :eek:

My day was just ruined by that news... watched the race video and I also saw her looking towards the Grandstand and wondered why...not wanting to change leads, then she dug in...all heart, class and courage...I am totally crushed:( by this news....in fact, feel sick to my stomach.
Thank goodness she'll be OK....but, with this happeneing, I'd bet we'll never see her race again...they will not take a chance of loosing her as a broodmare.
What is starnge is that she was pulled up and sent to New Bolten and they didn't find anything wrong....but I'd bet that hairline fracture was there...they just missed it...I could be wrong about that, and guess it really doens't matter now anyway...our Champion is done, you can put your money on that.
Geeze :ThmbDown:

[the_fat_man]

:( OH-No :eek:

.not wanting to change leads, then she dug in...all heart, class and courage...

She actually changed early and quite easily. Just saying.

[joanied]

No, No..... I didn't mean she wouldn't change leads...just that with her head turned like it was it simply LOOKED like she wasn't changing leads...
sorry about that!!
:blush:

[CryingForTheHorses]

She actually changed early and quite easily. Just saying.

Whether she changed leads at the right time or was late doesnt put the blame on her fracture,Could have been there long before this race and who knows she may have even had it in the derby,The good out of all of this she will get a rest and time to grow and mature. Dont count her out as she is young and a very gifted filly..Get well soon

[Maji]

My best wishes for her early recovery. She is indeed a special filly. :)

[DeanT]

This is not that big a deal is it for her health is it? Don't they just cryo it, give some stall rest for a few weeks and then she is pretty much fine?

[PaceAdvantage]

Could have been there long before this race and who knows she may have even had it in the derby,Well, considering she had a full body nuclear scan in late July / early August, I doubt they would have missed such an injury. (And she ran in the Belmont, not the Derby)

[jotb]

I never did like the fact that she missed a work between 8/19 and 9/2. For me that is a neg sign for a GRADE 1 horse running in a GRADE 1 race coming off a 3 month layoff.

Joe

[joanied]

I beleive she would have won the Gazzell if not for the long layoff and giving several pounds to the winner...despite the injury.
And yes, it could have been there...even while she was scanned at New Bolten...a hairline is hard to find sometimes.
I hope they do bring her back...and I feel so bad for her, 6 @@&*%$#@ weeks stall rest is awful hard on them...but, if she can come back as good as she is now, no telling how good she'll be at 4 yrs old.
I am still so depressed :( about this, and the BC Distaff just won't be the same without Rags.

[46zilzal]

Having gone back many times, with a PORTION of a film under re-scrutiny, it is very easy to overlook a small cortical deficit, or harder yet a break that is both recent and within the body of a bone. When there is little soft tissue response, one does not go right to one of these except upon review when you have the benefit of a high index of suspicion.

[joanied]

zilzal,
:confused: HUH?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Well, considering she had a full body nuclear scan in late July / early August, I doubt they would have missed such an injury. (And she ran in the Belmont, not the Derby)


Geeze..yes the Belmont,Thanks...With all her medicial team,Im sure they looked at everything,All is just speculation.Lets hope for a fast recovery :jump:

[gIracing]

I beleive she would have won the Gazzell if not for the long layoff and giving several pounds to the winner...despite the injury.
And yes, it could have been there...even while she was scanned at New Bolten...a hairline is hard to find sometimes.
I hope they do bring her back...and I feel so bad for her, 6 @@&*%$#@ weeks stall rest is awful hard on them...but, if she can come back as good as she is now, no telling how good she'll be at 4 yrs old.
I am still so depressed :( about this, and the BC Distaff just won't be the same without Rags.

the only time you will see rags again is in a pedigree line of her offspring

shewon't race again. think about it.. what would have been the point of coming out now saying she is coming back next year? they have until march of next year, when she's out the limelight and the derby picture starts to unfold, to make it a biline in the papers and the press. it won't take her long to figure out where they are going to bred her to.

thanks pletcher. freaking butcher

[joanied]

gIracing,

I HOPE :ThmbUp: to see her come back, like probably all of us here, but in my first post after hearing the bad news I said that we'd never see her run again...and I'll stick to that.
You are correct in what you say...almost 2 million to buy her, and with all she's done, she's worth as much as....well...the Green Monkey, for cryin' out loud!!!
I can't see them taking a chance on her breaking down, those hairline fractures have a way of coming back.

And you say Pletcher is a butcher :eek: Don't know about that, but I bet he ain't happy to loose this filly for any reason.

[46zilzal]

zilzal,
:confused: HUH?
you can miss small fractures early in their clinical course.

[gIracing]

people don't realize this.... Rags to riches could have been unraced and she woul dhave been worth more than the green monkey.

she has one of the top say...5 female families in the book, up there with the Toussaud (she ALONE sired 5 grade 1 winners including empire maker and chester house... First Defence is if I'm not mistaken a grandson of him) faily, the Classy N Smart (Smart Strike and literarly about 13 other million dollar earners) family, the Set them free family (Giacomo, Tiago, others if you go back father in the book), the Rowdy Angel family (fu peg, pine bluff, countless others). Peeping fawn is a cousin of Rags to Riches and Jazil... (Better than honor's half sister is the dam of peeping fawn)

she's hot property. they produce classic winners. she won't be back

I'm not so much mad taht she wont' be back. I get why.

what pisses me off is how close the filly came to breaking down because of lackluster training. My GF is an assistant trainer and she has been telling me since August.. "something isn't right"... you don't nuc scan a filly for nothing. Then when her workouts came in every morning..."something's not right". we both saw it comin... lackluster training... same thing situtation with Afleet Alex.


And you say Pletcher is a butcher images/UBGX/05.gif Don't know about that, but I bet he ain't happy to loose this filly for any reason.


I can write a book on Pletcher, Baffert and Lukas. and what's sad is.. the guy is actually a good horseman. he's proven that when He has his hands on horse, he can turn it into a grade 1 champion. the problem is.. he isn't a horseman anymore, he's a stable manager. he has over 200 horses in his care. my GF looks over 10 and she barley has time for that.lol, no she isn't slow.

I did a study by myself over the saratoga meet. Pletcher gets about 150 plus 2YO's every year.. in Saratoga, why come only then were I want to say, if you include lawyer ron, 4 of his wins with horses older than 3?

how come his horses only avg 4 starts a year? ALL his horses. not just the highest priced ones. the NY breds and all.

he isn't a trainer, he's a drill sargent.

Saturday, Pletcher had a 2.5 Million dollar 2YO, a 16.4 mIllion dollar 2YO and a 1.9 million dollar yearling (Rags) and manged to loose all 3 races, and 2 of them weren't close by a stretch.

Let me ask you.. why hasn't panty raid had a workout in over a month?

His horses break down because of hte gaunlent they run before they hit the age of 4. He doesn't try to just break them down but he runs them too damn hard and rags wasn't in shape to run in a grade 1. just look at her workout pattern and then after that.. throw in a grade 1.. and you will see what i'm talking about.

[PaceAdvantage]

His horses break down because of hte gaunlent they run before they hit the age of 4. He doesn't try to just break them down but he runs them too damn hard and rags wasn't in shape to run in a grade 1. just look at her workout pattern and then after that.. throw in a grade 1.. and you will see what i'm talking about.You're throwing around the term Grade 1 a little loosely when speaking of the Gazelle field. That was an easy bunch to come back against....seriously....

I love it when folks like you throw around the term "butcher" when speaking of Lukas, Baffert, Pletcher...etc...etc....

Not for one second do you EVER consider the possibility that it is the OWNER calling some of the shots in these "butcher" cases....

And no, I don't subscribe to your theory that Pletcher was a butcher in the case of Rags to Riches, but that's just me....

[JPinMaryland]

WHy was that field so weak anyhow? 5 horses, and 2 of them were way longshots... You figured they could find some fillys to fit there.

[gIracing]

You're throwing around the term Grade 1 a little loosely when speaking of the Gazelle field. That was an easy bunch to come back against....seriously....

I love it when folks like you throw around the term "butcher" when speaking of Lukas, Baffert, Pletcher...etc...etc....

Not for one second do you EVER consider the possibility that it is the OWNER calling some of the shots in these "butcher" cases....

And no, I don't subscribe to your theory that Pletcher was a butcher in the case of Rags to Riches, but that's just me....


1. The fact is.. it was a grade 1 race. How can I throw around the term loosely? That's the classification of the race. Granted, this wasn't a BC Distaff preview or anything but still.. it's a grade 1 race, and grade 1 races run in grade 1 times.

Not for one second do you EVER consider the possibility that it is the OWNER calling some of the shots in these "butcher" cases....

Of course. And just like you"love it" when that happens, I love it when someone like you takes the opposite arugement, that the trainer has absolutly no blame in what goes on.





Revel, Scat Daddy, Deadly Dealer, Panty Raid, Cowtown Cat, Sam P... they are either 1) not racing or 2) aren't anywhere near their former selves.

Todd Plethcer gets 200 2YO's a year. Name 10 graded stakes caluibur 4 YO's that he has had.

I'll give you a head start:

Ashado
English Channel
Fairbanks
Half Ours
Harlington

Please continue. His horses break down by the time they are 4. again.. look at his starters, besides a few, they only run 4 times per year on avg and that's with all caulated in.

Harlingtoin is the best horse he has anything to do with right now and probably ever, yet he can't keep the horse together with enough bandaids or medical supplies ot even work anymore. This is a horse that toyed with premium tap last year and a serena's song offspring. Yes. I'm sure The plans for harlington was to run him in the ground. Yes. I'm sure some of that has to do with the fact the unbridled throws horses about as sound as 3 legged elelphants, but look what a guy like Jerkins did with an unbridled... he won a grade 1 with Political force, with a horse that had to have bone chips removed..twice.. as a 2YO.

guys like baffert and pletcher and lukas? tell me.. when was the last time you hear about flying first class? Was it when he was put in a spot he had no business being in when he ran in the preakness? he hasn't had a workout since.

And baffert..lol, I won't even touch that one.

at the end of the day, I'll give you an example of what it is supposed to be like

Take peter miller out in SoCal. he trains a nice horse by the name of Fast parade. very very nice. He's a turfer and he's 4YO

now, when he showed some signs early of being..you know... pretty good on dirt, short distance, but pretty good, the owners wanted to put him on the TC trail. Peter Miller would have none of it. He told them 1) his best surface is the turf and 2) he can't go that far. They wanted to go to the TC still.. he said look... if you do it, it's going to be without me, I will have none of that decision, and walked.

and after he got his ### handed to him in keeneland by a race future derby also ran showing up won, they came right back to peter miller. He's a Sprint Turf pecailist, just like he always should have been.


And if you are going to argue, you need to come with facts and not off the wall statements or you will get your ass handed to you. I know my stuff.

Ovbiously I'm not the only one that thinks the same about pletcher... Notice how at Saratoga his 2YO stock is nothing like it was in the past... Other people are picking up his stock. Pool Land who finished next to last in the BC Distaff last year came up injuried, are just now getting back into training and have switched trainers from Pletcher to I want to say Contessa.I can look it up but they have definatly switched trainers.


And with Baffert, look closely at what Zayat decides to do. that's his big owner he has left and Zayat already has half his stock with Bill Mott... the other half might be staying in NY with him. I'd be hot if i paid 4.6 Mil for a colt, and got 2 races out of him. What's up with pussycat doll? what happened to Saint Paul? Air Commander? Where are they? Pussycat doll when from grade 1 winning mare in january to dead last polper in a matter of months. Air Commander, although is looking like he's ready to make a combact, won an allowence race in march and we haven't heard from him since. Saint paul hadn't raced or worked since he lost to great hunter.

I don't know about you, but I don't think getting 5 races out of a GELDING is what the owners were thinking when they sent saint paul to Bobby B.

[PaceAdvantage]

And just like you"love it" when that happens, I love it when someone like you takes the opposite arugement, that the trainer has absolutly no blame in what goes on.I never even remotely implied that the trainer has absolutely no blame in what goes on, which makes the rest of your post, while interesting, inapplicable to my reply.

[gIracing]

way to ungracefully bow out ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

way to ungracefully bow out ;)What is there to argue against? You can pick out lots of horses they've had that back your theory. But then again, these guys have LOTS of horses, don't they? They run (or have run) some of the biggest stables in North America. It should be easy to come up with a bunch of horses that will back your theory.

It will be easy to find horses trained by Baffert, Lukas (in the good ol' days) and Pletcher that have gotten hurt, or retired early, or worse yet, have died on the track. How can you argue against it, right? You may be 100% correct for all I know....but that still doesn't change the fact that the Gazelle was an EASY comeback race for a filly like Rags to Riches....

[the little guy]

Harlingtoin is the best horse he has anything to do with right now and probably ever




Come on!

[lilmegahertz]

Ok everyone...I'm new here so please take it easy one me...but I too wondered why she was running a race with so little training. :confused: Grant it she's good but no athlete is so good that they can take a break from training then go out and run a good race. I wonder if the scent of horse of the year was wafting around their heads. Even for that top honor, racing a horse who isn't at the top of their game is wrong.....

[gIracing]

that's the thing about it... horse racing is like no other sport. you ask, very logical questions and you get this closed door canded "Todd pletcher/Dutrow/insert trainer can train better than you in his sleep drunk on blah blah"

.. I am an athlete.. played High school and AAU basketball. was pretty darn good too. Tore my ACL and MCL. anyway..I can't tell you how to train a horse, but I can write a textbook on how I trained.

I can tell you this much. When say... HIgh school basketball ended in what.. March, and AAU started usually in June... although I played street ball.. and I wasn't a couch potato.. it always took me a good 2 or so weeks to get back into "game shape".. in ohter words, being able to play an entire game without subbing if need be. And you did that by running sprints unitl you puked. 5 in 1's. And even then.. the first couple of games I would have my hands on top of my heads in time outs.. it's just a different type of "shape" that practice can't get you in.

What pletcher did to her was like coming in off from playing street ball and throwing her in a game after 2 bad practices. Not only is she not going to win.. she's can hurt herself by over exerting. I can't tell you how many pulled hamstrings I've had becuase of not warming up and pushing myself too hard.

that's that. and it's not even the going back and running a good race. she was a good 2-3 works away from being in race shape. you take a compeitive filly like htat who is going ot give it her all, you are asking for diaster.


Harlington.. I know i know it's an out there statement.. but actually go back and look at his races and look who he beat. He beat 3-4 horses that are going to be low odds in the BC Classic this year. Look at the allowence OC he literarly..toyed with Premium Tap with. no, talent is not his problem. it's staying healthy.

[PaceAdvantage]

What pletcher did to her was like coming in off from playing street ball and throwing her in a game after 2 bad practices. Not only is she not going to win.. she's can hurt herself by over exerting. I can't tell you how many pulled hamstrings I've had becuase of not warming up and pushing myself too hard.

that's that. and it's not even the going back and running a good race. she was a good 2-3 works away from being in race shape. you take a compeitive filly like htat who is going ot give it her all, you are asking for diaster.2 - 3 works away? Not very likely. She had 4 works in a span of less than a month leading up to this race....

She was facing FOUR other fillies, who between them had only ONE graded victory, and that was a GRADE 2! (Granted, Lear's Princess was right there in her last two Grade 1s....but still....big whoop).

This was an EASY field....couldn't have found an easier field to come back against.

Unless you were in the barn, I don't see how you can say she needed 2 or 3 more works to go up against the very suspect Gazelle "fantastic four."

[gIracing]

correction. she had 4 piss poor works and the one time she was asked for anything resembling her old form, she had to miss a work. a sign that something at the very least... isn't right yet.

Unless you were in the barn, I don't see how you can say she needed 2 or 3 more works to go up against the very suspect Gazelle "fantastic four."

because I can read. my GF, who is an assistant trainer told me about a 3 weeks ago....something just isn't right. now.. she thinks tht the filly was NEVER right after the belmont, hence the nuc scan... I don't think that. however we both agree that the poor baby never should have seen the track

[jotb]

correction. she had 4 piss poor works and the one time she was asked for anything resembling her old form, she had to miss a work. a sign that something at the very least... isn't right yet.



because I can read. my GF, who is an assistant trainer told me about a 3 weeks ago....something just isn't right. now.. she thinks tht the filly was NEVER right after the belmont, hence the nuc scan... I don't think that. however we both agree that the poor baby never should have seen the track


Sometimes and I'm probably right that most people don't read the whole thread. I had pointed out on the previous page that RAGS had missed a work going into the race. I also spoke about a Grade 1 so why is this all repeated again.

I have to agree with PACE that the GRADE 1 was not nearly as strong as other GRADE 1's that we will see on CUP day but RAGS should have easily beat the field.

Joe

[Bruddah]

If Curlin can win, should he race in the BC. She certainly could be named HOTY. (JMHO) :confused:

[Ron]

Bruddah, what are your thoughts on her sexual orientation? I hope that she is a successful broodmare because she may not race again.

[Bruddah]

your posts are leaving no doubt about yours. :kiss: :kiss: :D

[PaceAdvantage]

because I can read. my GF, who is an assistant trainer told me about a 3 weeks ago....something just isn't right. now.. she thinks tht the filly was NEVER right after the belmont, hence the nuc scan... I don't think that. however we both agree that the poor baby never should have seen the trackUnless your GF is Pletcher's assistant trainer, her opinion amounts to nothing more than a hill of beans, because as your GF should know, EVERY HORSE is different in the kind of training they need leading up to a race. Your GF can't possibly know what is best for RTR or how she was coming up to this race. No disrespect intended, but that's reality.

In this instance, you and I and your GF are playing Monday Morning Quarterback, and all our opinions amount to nothing compared to those actually in the barn with RTR. Their opinion, and actions, are the only ones that count in the end.

[gIracing]

My GF is an assistant trainer to someone who stables within walking distance to pletcher and has seen rags work personally at least 5-6 times.

with that said, get off your high horse. it's a sport. I never did get that about horse racing. It's my OPINION at the end of the day. just like your thoughts are your OPINION. you can't state anything without being called a horse hater, a person hater or some type of hater. My opinion is taht pletch didn't have her in the right shape. It's no different than me saying say... if USC were to loose saturday and I said PC didn't have USC in the right game shape, no idfferent than if the Lakers got crushed by the Denver Nuggets and I said Phil Jackson screwed up, no different than then me blaiming the San Diego Chargers getting embarassed on National TV on Norv Turner.

Yet in other sports, people come togehter to express their OPINIONS, whereas in horse racing you can't have an opinion other than "(insert trainer/jockey/owner/etc) is the best X sinced sliced bred, they do no wrong and if you have any other thought esides this, you don't know jack becuase you were not htere, and if you were there I want signed documents by the FBI stating you were there)..

that right there is part of the reason is why "hardcore sports fans" dont' "get" horse racing.. it's a different... older... less open..society so to speak. My GF is pretty cool but there are some things I won't even say around her, because she's not a fan.. she's a trainer. I respect the fact that she works iwth some of the people. when I say "this horse sucks" and she worked him and has a bond with the horse and she thinks I actually hate the poor horse... no more than I "hate" Phillip Rivers.. I don't know him as a person.. but as a football QB...

what i'm getting at is.. lighten up .. for the love of god

[DanG]

My GF is an assistant trainer to someone who stables within walking distance to pletcher and has seen rags work personally at least 5-6 times.
Your GF; I'm assuming this a NY barn to view recent works of R2R.

If so, may I ask how she was so well versed with her "unique" figures on catastrophic injuries at Del Mar? :confused:

[Ron]

gIracing lives on the West Coast, gfIracing is in NY -- long distance relationship.

[gIracing]

Long distance relationship but wrong states...

lol

I live in Arkansas and I'm slowly moving my butt to SoCal which is where she is. She was next to pletcher when he was stabled out there in Santa Anita

Remember about 2 months ago in a post I said I was moving to SoCal by the end of the year?.... I fly free so it's not that bad.. i can get there in about 4 4 in a half hours and get back, and i do web design so I don't have to clock in or anything.. but still. I hate arkansas.

I need to move, also because she's trying to branch out and start trianing her self and even now I make more money than she does... if she's going to be branching out I don't want her to have to worry about finances. anyway that's getting too personal. lol, what kinda guy questions something like that? I could tell you a lot of crap if you would actually listen and take your blinders off.. not all bad.. not all good. There is a colt that hasn't raced yet by street cry that is proably SoCal's best shot at the derby. She helps me "see" stuff that I don't normally "see" and why stuff happens.. plus we get along and have like interests.

[PaceAdvantage]

what i'm getting at is.. lighten up .. for the love of godThis coming from the guy who calls Pletcher a BUTCHER and accuses him of throwing Rags to Riches to the wolves (that super-scary Gazelle field), completely unprepared (2-3 works away from RACE SHAPE).....I should lighten up?

Ok. You win.

[JPinMaryland]

Am I to assume from the above exchange that the PA administrator will delete all those threads that deal with after the fact, post race analysis?

That ought to liven up this board for good. :jump:

[PaceAdvantage]

Am I to assume from the above exchange that the PA administrator will delete all those threads that deal with after the fact, post race analysis?Huh? Who said anything about deleting threads.

Anyone can have any opinion they wish. But I also get to offer my opinion. There would be no point in me sustaining this website if I didn't get to participate in the fun and games.

With that said, I would have never gotten into this thread if it weren't for the use of the term Butcher. Extremism such as this always gets my antennae buzzin....

[PaceAdvantage]

I hate to do this, but the frustrated lawyer in me can't let this go without one more piece of evidence.

It has been suggested in this forum that RTR was 2-3 works away from being in race shape. It has also been suggested that RTR's works were piss poor.

Here is RTR's workout line as published in the program:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/images/RTRW.gif

Here is the winner's (Lear's Princess) workout line:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/images/LearW.gif

Not only was the winner's work on Sep 8 quite comparable to RTR's (both were rather ordinary), but the winner only shows one work since her last race (Aug 18).

[gIracing]

you just couldn't leave well enough alone could you?

oh well here we go.

every horse is different. I've been tabbing rag's workouts since she was at Santa Anita and won the LA going 8ish wide the entire trip. I knew she was special then.

A sharp work for her is 1:01ish 1:13ish. give or take, not a monster in the morning but she's not the lazyist horse on earth

1: 14 and 3?


but that's not even the main point

focus in on the Workout on the 19th of August. the one time she was asked for run and worked somewhat near what she usually does, she had to SKIP her next workout.

Hence why I said 2-3 workouts away.. she should be able to run thoose workouts and be primed to hit hte track, not take a week off.

damn, thanks for helping me prove my case.

the posting of another hosres work tabs is inconsequencial, as ever horse is different.

I know how rags works and also Lear's Princess hasn't been off for 98 days, Rags to riches hjas


Please, Please try again

[JPinMaryland]

This entire subject of RtR workout patterns has been done to death on another forum. Bottom line for me is that astute track watchers are onto somethign here. Especially the one where she was asked for run and then had to be taken out of training. I might post some summarized version of the argument, I know it convinced me.

[PaceAdvantage]

you just couldn't leave well enough alone could you?I don't really understand this type of comment. I thought we were having a good, clean debate here....isn't that the purpose of the message board, to hash out and learn things? I am sure I will end up learning something new from you that will help me in my handicapping as we go forward.

every horse is different. I've been tabbing rag's workouts since she was at Santa Anita and won the LA going 8ish wide the entire trip. I knew she was special then.

A sharp work for her is 1:01ish 1:13ish. give or take, not a monster in the morning but she's not the lazyist horse on earth

1: 14 and 3?You know, if you would have typed this from the start, I probably wouldn't have even bothered trying to take the other side of the argument. But then again, that butcher comment really got me riled up....


focus in on the Workout on the 19th of August. the one time she was asked for run and worked somewhat near what she usually does, she had to SKIP her next workout.Perhaps she worked faster than Pletcher had intended her to work, so he decided to not go with an official workout the following week....

the posting of another hosres work tabs is inconsequencial, as ever horse is different.I've been saying this from the start...

I know how rags works and also Lear's Princess hasn't been off for 98 days, Rags to riches hjasWe can go at this forever. Lear's Princess shows two workouts prior to her Aug 18 race, and this time around, with a break of almost 30 days between races, she only shows one work. Does that mean she needed another work? Obviously not, given the result.


Please, Please try againNah....I think we've BUTCHERED this topic to death by now....