Why won't the "big boys" do business with PTC?

[ceejay]

In my opinion because doing business with a rebater who rebates all players would be telling their existing ADW customers "we know we're overcharging and screwing you."

[GameTheory]

In my opinion because doing business with a rebater who rebates all players would be telling their existing ADW customers "we know we're overcharging and screwing you."Would some of those tracks give PTC the signal if they did not rebate on their track? Then PTC would at least have a foot in the door...

[Premier Turf Club]

In my opinion because doing business with a rebater who rebates all players would be telling their existing ADW customers "we know we're overcharging and screwing you."

There are a lot of reasons. Way more than meets the eye, and unfortunately, none of them I can talk about in this venue. I apologize, as I said previously we need to be silent on that for now.

[ddog]

There are a lot of reasons. Way more than meets the eye, and unfortunately, none of them I can talk about in this venue. I apologize, as I said previously we need to be silent on that for now.


Stay after 'em Ian.

I appreciate what you are trying to do as I understand it!

They will all come around eventually, with your head start and features I predict you may end up running the whole ADW side for the track some day.

One could only hope anyway.

:jump:

[ceejay]

There are a lot of reasons. Way more than meets the eye, and unfortunately, none of them I can talk about in this venue. I apologize, as I said previously we need to be silent on that for now.
Sorry. just venting! :bang:

[Premier Turf Club]

Sorry. just venting! :bang:

Ceejay, don't apologize. We appreciate the support we've gotten from our customers, we really do.

There's nothing I like more than hanging out talking to horse/dog players. The War Room was fun today. We should bet YAV more often.

[shanta]

In my opinion because doing business with a rebater who rebates all players would be telling their existing ADW customers "we know we're overcharging and screwing you."

Why?

Lemme take a view "guesses" at it ok? Remember these are SOLELY my views and I don't have a master's degree or even 4 yrs.college.

I DO have common sense,intuition and first hand experience dealing with GREED.

1) Old boy network

2) cushy jobs and fat cat salaries/bonuses

3) " us vs. them" attitude and horseplayers are the "them" in this

4) Collusion (includes kickbacks/payoffs to racetrack execs involved in "handing out" decisions regarding whom gets what etc.) Here is that "old boy network in FULL operation man.

5) Criminal elements and actions regarding money laundering including but not limited to crossing state lines.

We need some serious PLANNING to even think of having a chance to change things. Long range planning on a national scale involving THOUSANDS of players and MILLIONS of dollars in OUR control to leverage with.Otherwise it will be business as usual.

Money makes the world go round.
Power corrupts
Absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY
Richie

[Tom]

4 and 5 stand out to me as likely.
Especially 4.
And 5.
And 4.

This much money has to draw in the criminal element, and who, after dealing with many of these "exotic whores" doubts they are criminals?

I would laugh in your face if you told me they were all legit!:D

[Our Boy Chuck]

Why?

Lemme take a view "guesses" at it ok? Remember these are SOLELY my views and I don't have a master's degree or even 4 yrs.college.


5) Criminal elements and actions regarding money laundering including but not limited to crossing state lines.

Money makes the world go round.
Power corrupts
Absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY
Richie

Money Laundering

You got it baby. Lots of bets settled in cold hard cash, saw it all the time. Lots of envelopes stuffed with it.


Good thing Chuckie is fully reformed. Do my old pals listen? Haw-Haw

[Our Boy Chuck]

4 and 5 stand out to me as likely.
Especially 4.
And 5.
And 4.

This much money has to draw in the criminal element, and who, after dealing with many of these "exotic whores" doubts they are criminals?

I would laugh in your face if you told me they were all legit!:D

Legit, haw-haw. Pass the prostitute to me when your done with her.

Chuckie
Now Fully Reformed

[Maji]

4 and 5 stand out to me as likely.
Especially 4.
And 5.
And 4.

This much money has to draw in the criminal element, and who, after dealing with many of these "exotic whores" doubts they are criminals?

I would laugh in your face if you told me they were all legit!:D

THUD.... that was the sound of the nail being hit on the head by Tom... :ThmbUp:

It is sad that the sewers are not being cleaned up.

[happy1]

I am very new to this thing and the first thing that comes to mind is, should I take the conditional odds wagering route? or learn to handicap the horses?

Also, do these work against each other, if I am just playing odds via conditional wagering doesn't that "hurt" the people that stright-up handicap?

[BillW]

I am very new to this thing and the first thing that comes to mind is, should I take the conditional odds wagering route? or learn to handicap the horses?



Why do you see these as mutually exclusive, besides if you don't spot play, it probably doesn't matter.


Also, do these work against each other, if I am just playing odds via conditional wagering doesn't that "hurt" the people that stright-up handicap?

Please explain? I get the feeling you really don't understand conditional wagering.

[happy1]

I guess I am new, I do not know what spot-play is... is it picking a very specific race that meets very exacting criteria?

My novice understanding of conditional wagering is; you setup your "conditions" which are many like; pools types, size, num of betting options, etc. and when the conditions are met then inject a calculated wager at the last minute.

I would think this would be counter productive to a "handicapper" who may have played because of the horse "quality" and odds. Injecting at the last minute would skew the odds out of favor for the handicapper who usually can't cancel his wager. Am I way off on this??

[betovernetcapper]

Am I way off on this??

Pretty much.

[BillW]

happy1,

I guess I am new, I do not know what spot-play is... is it picking a very specific race that meets very exacting criteria?


It's more about picking a horse based on exacting criteria and playing that horse without further handicapping criteria.


My novice understanding of conditional wagering is; you setup your "conditions" which are many like; pools types, size, num of betting options, etc. and when the conditions are met then inject a calculated wager at the last minute.

I would think this would be counter productive to a "handicapper" who may have played because of the horse "quality" and odds. Injecting at the last minute would skew the odds out of favor for the handicapper who usually can't cancel his wager. Am I way off on this??

Conditional wagering simply means putting a minimum odds criteria on your wager at x MTP (bet $10 to win on the 7 if the odds are greater than 3-1 at 1 MTP). If the odds are above the level that you specify, the wager is placed, otherwise it is discarded. It's just like sitting at the computer and watching the odds till the last minute only it is done automatically for you. The ADW has probablty less knowledge of when the race is going off than you do by watching TVG or HRTV and seeing gate delays etc., but that is the risk you take. It's no where near as complex as you imagine. :)

Bill

[happy1]

Also, when i wager with PTC do they get the 25% exotic take-out from the track that I wager on? This sounds like a good thing so it can help them pay me rebates!!Do they pay into ND purses, etc??

[BillW]

Also, when i wager with PTC do they get the 25% exotic take-out from the track that I wager on? This sounds like a good thing so it can help them pay me rebates!!Do they pay into ND purses, etc??

Yes, they are "onshore" everything goes into the pools, unlike the "rebaters" you may have heard about that are in Central America etc. They just don't keep as much of the profits that the other ones do. BTW - I don't work for them, nor represent them, so I feel uncomfortable answering for them. I'm sure they will be glad to discuss their ADW with you. They have always been more than forthcoming with me.

BTW welcome to the site!

Bill

[happy1]

happy1,



It's more about picking a horse based on exacting criteria and playing that horse without further handicapping criteria.



Conditional wagering simply means putting a minimum odds criteria on your wager at x MTP (bet $10 to win on the 7 if the odds are greater than 3-1 at 1 MTP). If the odds are above the level that you specify, the wager is placed, otherwise it is discarded. It's just like sitting at the computer and watching the odds till the last minute only it is done automatically for you. The ADW has probablty less knowledge of when the race is going off than you do by watching TVG or HRTV and seeing gate delays etc., but that is the risk you take. It's no where near as complex as you imagine. :)

Bill


I hope you are correct because this looks complicated.
http://batchbetpro.com/BatchBet%20ProProject.pdf

I review this for a while and see if I can figure it out.

[happy1]

Yes, they are "onshore" everything goes into the pools, unlike the "rebaters" you may have heard about that are in Central America etc. They just don't keep as much of the profits that the other ones do. BTW - I don't work for them, nor represent them, so I feel uncomfortable answering for them. I'm sure they will be glad to discuss their ADW with you. They have always been more than forthcoming with me.

BTW welcome to the site!

Bill

I appreciate the info. This entire industry seems very complicated; bettors, jockeys, owners, trainers, horses, race types, race venue operators, simulcasting, totes, TV, state regulations, intra-state gaming, etc. Its amazing anything works....:)

[happy1]

Oh and thanks billW for taking time with a newbie...

[BillW]

I hope you are correct because this looks complicated.
http://batchbetpro.com/BatchBet%20ProProject.pdf

I review this for a while and see if I can figure it out.

I'm not familiar with Batchbetpro. Maybe Ian (CEO of PTC) is and can chime in? This isn't the "conditional betting" we are discussing here. The confusion may be that the company that does the batchbet stuff also markets the web interface software that PTC uses (Note the "Powered by ... " at the bottom of their home page) As far as I know, there is no other association.

[betovernetcapper]

BillW-congratulations on yesterdays Silky Sullivan win-need your address for prizes :)
.
Numbers 1 through 5 sure. Let me add #6. My sense is that a major component of the TrackNet business plan involves becoming an ADW monopoly. The TrackNet vision was to become the next TVG and PTC is clearly a roadblock.

[Premier Turf Club]

Also, when i wager with PTC do they get the 25% exotic take-out from the track that I wager on? This sounds like a good thing so it can help them pay me rebates!!Do they pay into ND purses, etc??

Yes, we pay into the ND purse & breed fund. It's one of the things that separates us from IRG, Elite & RGS, we support live racing. We also pay a tax to the state of ND and a percentage to North Dakota Horse Park.

The cash rewards you receive on each wager come out of our profits, the takeout rate.


I hope you are correct because this looks complicated.
http://batchbetpro.com/BatchBet%20ProProject.pdf


I am not only the CEO of PTC, but the CTO and a 30+ year horseplayer to boot. The development of new features and troubleshooting of the old ones is a whole lot easier when the CEO is a customer as well. The software we use was designed by me, and Jimmy McCoy from Kanati. His very capable technology team coded it for us. Jimmy also wrote Batch Bet Pro, a sophisticated bet optimization program. Jimmy and I worked together previously; that's how I knew who to choose to build our site.

Conditional wagering is something I came up with last December when we were sketching out the site. It is actually quite different from Batch Bet Pro, and is more akin to placing equity limit trades (I was a trader in a previous life so that's how I approach playing horses).


I hope this long-winded response helped. ;)

[JustRalph]

I appreciate the info. This entire industry seems very complicated; bettors, jockeys, owners, trainers, horses, race types, race venue operators, simulcasting, totes, TV, state regulations, intra-state gaming, etc. Its amazing anything works....:)

have you met polytrack yet......... :lol: Get ready for complicated.

[PaceAdvantage]

Also, when i wager with PTC do they get the 25% exotic take-out from the track that I wager on? This sounds like a good thing so it can help them pay me rebates!!Do they pay into ND purses, etc??

Odd question from a newbie.

[PaceAdvantage]

I hope you are correct because this looks complicated.
http://batchbetpro.com/BatchBet%20ProProject.pdf

I review this for a while and see if I can figure it out.

Where did you get that link from? When I go to batchbetpro, I get redirected to PTC....:confused:

Pretty smooth, for a newbie....

[Premier Turf Club]

Odd question from a newbie.

My thoughts exactly. You picked up on Batch Bet Pro. My tipoff was "paying ND purses." I've been playing for 30 years and until I started PTC I never even knew there WAS live racing in ND because the tracks are small.

I PM'd some on the board about it last night. They had the same response you did.

[happy1]

First start with a PhD in Mathematics, then get a job for a start up RFID company, then when a customer from the horse racing industry takes a look at your product for use on a horse for tracking purposes, then do your homework about the industry which begins to spark an interest in the facets of how it works, then try to work up how you can monetize your product decide to look how a tote works, decide that that was a poor choice but it did expose how things work and how the money flows in the industry, then as a good Engineer does; try to understand everything thinking it will bring you the holy-grail answer (no luck yet).



The research started from the simple search pari-mutuel regulations; which brings up every State's regulations. This seems to explain the playing field but it doesn’t specifically describe each player’s interaction (thus many of my questions.) Also, you can read various meeting minutes from State’s meetings (especially California) and the industry oversight committees like NTRA and the papers that describe the 2003(?) pick-6 wagering scandal; this explained how the infrastructure works in the industry.



The algorithmic wagering device looked intriguing but it seems counter intuitive if it was used en-masse. And it seemed to take the fun out of the game. But I did have an idea of making it better with a close-loop method.



This is interesting but I am frozen on where to start; keep it fun or just try to make a profit.



What I am struggling with now is as recently mentioned stock-trade-like but, in my stock trades I can put in programmed BUYS and SELLS. There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent of a SELL in wagering, what to do, what to do… hmmmmm



Coming completely clean the questions I asked where more for me, the answers really don’t matter one way or another. It really would not make any difference I my quest, except maybe in the future I could come up with a new aspect, like why don’t they have races inside races eg. at the mid-point in the race (win, place, show) wouldn’t this create a new twist on the whole handicapping thing like speed vs. stamina but both in the same race?



Thanks again for the help.

[happy1]

I figured out what you meant by going to the www. of batchbetpro. I am looking up my browsing history to see how I got this link

http://batchbetpro.com/batchbetpro.html

[happy1]

this was the link into North Dakota.

http://www.ndracingcommission.com/Index.htm

reading all of the meeting minutes I know what you mean these tracks must be tiny the dollars they talk about are small compared to other states.

I couldn't find the paramutuel tax for ND, and I promise not to ask. I do know that Oregon is really low which is why most of the ADWs have their servers in that state.

The other cool newbie thing I know is source-market-fees, however my friend at the tote clued me in on that one.

BTW - I have done a lot of research on the industry if anyone has a question they would like to know, let me know, and I will try to find out.

[highnote]

I like the idea of betting on a race within the race.

[betovernetcapper]

Occasionally there seems to be an inference that if someone bets through PTC somehow the horseman are hurt. Recently we had an event at YAV and Yav is carried by Brisbet-YouBet and PTC. I'm sure you can also bet it at various racetracks throughout the country.
So the question is ,if $100 is bet through the following-how much do the YAV horsemen get?

PTC $__________
Brisbet $_______
YouBet $________
another racetrack $__________
IRG $_________
RGS $__________
eHorse $__________

The reason I ask is that even though I want rebates and the best interface possible, I'd like to know that when I place a bet, the guys that are putting on the show are taken care of.

[DJofSD]

I'm sure you can also bet it at various racetracks throughout the country.

CA does not carry very many tracks. There is a limit to the number of out of state races they'll allow. Something like a total of 22 races. Why this number and who decides is a mystery to me.

[betovernetcapper]

CA does not carry very many tracks. There is a limit to the number of out of state races they'll allow. Something like a total of 22 races. Why this number and who decides is a mystery to me.

That is crazy. Ok, let's say someone bets $100 on YAV, through another racetrack or racetrack OTB in some other state, not CA, what would the YAV horsemen get?

[cj]

I would think the track is getting about the same amount assuming they are selling for about the same price to everyone.

[betovernetcapper]

I would think the track is getting about the same amount assuming they are selling for about the same price to everyone.

You'd think that, but tracks sell their signals at various rates, with rebate shops being charged the highest. If I understand it correctly, the structure goes from 0 for eHorse to 2.5% for another track to 7% for someone like PTC.

[DeanT]

Hey Bonc,

They would get what the signal price is. Maybe 4% or 5% or something. As a guess, a couple percent goes to the track, and a couple percent is earmarked for purses. Of the remaining cut, taxes etc take a bit, some goes to the ADW itself for profit/op expenses, and in PTC's case some is returned to the player.

If people bet the Del Mar pick 6 at YAV, for example, then 12%-15% or so goes directly to the YAV and/or purses. Tracks themselves are an ADW in terms of simulcasting.

I think you are correct that PTC and others like them would pay the highest rates and contribute the most per dollar wagered than other tracks.

[Premier Turf Club]

I think you are correct that PTC and others like them would pay the highest rates and contribute the most per dollar wagered than other tracks.

Rebate shops typically pay the highest rates. In fact simulcast directors will often quote us a rate and then bump it up a point or two when we tell them we rebate. Having an economics background, I can't quite figure out that logic. Maybe Happy1 can explain it to us.

Here's one for you to chew on.

Last year NYC OTB refused to take the GP signal because Magna had the temerity to try and up the rate from 2.25% to 2.75%. Meanwhile, the off-shore rebaters paid 7% or more for it.

NYC OTB eventually compromised and agreed to pay 2.55%. But you never hear about those things, just how rebaters are contributing to the game's demise.

[highnote]

The thing that drives simulcasting is that the cost of distributing a signal to multiple outlets is very small. Like any business, lowering distribution costs is key. That is why the internet is such a great innovation.

I don't think the potential of the internet has been fully recognized by racetracks, yet.

Simulcasting is the future. International simulcasting seems to me to be the biggest area for growth.

As they say in the consumer electronics business -- "Stack 'em high. Sell 'em cheap."

So racetracks need to card lots of races and distribute their signal as far and wide as possible.

For the life of me, I don't know why they can't sell their feature race of the day to convenience stores as is done in France. People buy tickets on the feature race like it's a lottery. The race is broadcast on TV. The whole country can participate.

A larger wagering menu is needed. Someone mentioned that tracks could offer a bet for the race within the race -- whose going to win the first quarter or half. Great idea.

There is tremendous room for improvement and innovation.

[DeanT]

But you never hear about those things, just how rebaters are contributing to the game's demise.

I think that is a reaction to price pressure, filled with demagoguery. If I thought like a monopoly and charged average cost pricing for 100 years, and word filtered out to players that all these years the cost of taking a $1000 wager is the same as taking a $2 wager, I think I would scream foul too. You attack their slice, and they don't like it.

JMO on that, but from reading industry conference transcripts and the comments of "higher ups", I get the feeling they just wish you would all go away, and shut the hell up. Which to me, like you, I find very odd. If someone wants to sell my shoes, has a distribution network set up from sea to shining sea, advertises my shoes, puts them on shelves and supplies customer service unparalled to make sure my shoes have a good name, and does so with no cost to me at all, while giving me an ROI positive fee for my shoes ......... well, that is the way business is supposed to work, and I am one happy businessman.

[happy1]

alot of wagering $$ comes from NY OTBs so they dictate a rate which is backwards to the event holder dictating.

from what I have gathered ADWs pay the highest and rebate ADW pays even more.

and some how it looks like CA has the ability to charge any out of state wager an extra fee. Wow now that's power "we have such great tracks we, as a state, demand extra beyond what the track will charge you..."
it looks like, in general, the venue's take (from any source) is split 50/50 with the state's horseman but I'll look into this more.

[northerndancer]

alot of wagering $$ comes from NY OTBs so they dictate a rate which is backwards to the event holder dictating.

from what I have gathered ADWs pay the highest and rebate ADW pays even more.

and some how it looks like CA has the ability to charge any out of state wager an extra fee. Wow now that's power "we have such great tracks we, as a state, demand extra beyond what the track will charge you..."
it looks like, in general, the venue's take (from any source) is split 50/50 with the state's horseman but I'll look into this more.

Happy the horsemen's group must sign off on all contracts for simulcasting purposes...... this means both simulcasting out of their own product as well as what the players within their home territory can wager on via the simulcast. In most instances the split is 50/50 with the track of the net revenue from the wagering dollar..... after all agreed upon expenses (state taxes, breeder fees, simulcast fees, reward programs)...... if the horsemen do not agree with the contract they can exercise their right to veto the access of the signal to that particular outlet.

The key thing to remember is the horsemen make the most when a punter wagers at the track..... they make cosiderably less when the wager takes place away from the track.

[northerndancer]

NYC OTB is an interesting character....... Tampa Bay Downs likes to shout from the mountain tops how by eliminating the scummy rebate operators they demonstrated how by doing so their handle increased because that allowed the little guy to be more competitive...... never once did Tampa Bay Downs mention to the public that at the same point in time that they were limiting access to their signal from the scummy rebaters they entered into an agreement with NYC OTB to carry the signal..... obviously this market had more to do with the increase in handle than the average punter not having to compete with the rebate operators punters...... now you know more of the story.

[highnote]

And if you have a NYRA 1 account you can now get a rebate. Does that mean Tampa Bay will shut out NYRA?

[northerndancer]

Tampa will not shut out NYRA as they will not deny access to another track. Since NYRA operates Saratoga, Belmont and Aqueduct the horsemen at Tampa would cry foul if track management said no to NYRA.

Tampa and the rest who grandstand against the scummy rebators are not against the rebates but against the fact that an ADW can offer rebates without having the costs associated with running a racetrack. There are many tracks that offer rebates to their customers in various forms but one track will not deny access to another track for any type of rebate program. If they were to deny access to that track the horsemen's groups around the country would ban together to support the track being harshly treated.

I would love to see a current ADW own a racetrack and then see how they would be treated by the fraternity.

[highnote]

I would love to see a current ADW own a racetrack and then see how they would be treated by the fraternity.


I think Thistledown in Cleveland can be bought at a reasonable price.

Why don't all of us here at PA put up some money and buy the joint?

I'm sure if we can come up with a good down payment, we can get financing for the rest.

Whaddya say, PA members? Here's your chance.

[DJofSD]

The key thing to remember is the horsemen make the most when a punter wagers at the track..... they make cosiderably less when the wager takes place away from the track.

And why is that? Maybe purses should be stuctured to take into account the source of the revenues.

I don't know the particulars but I have always been under the impression that satellite wagering and importing of races from other circuits was a good thing, all around. But now, what used to be a good thing is now considered to be a problem and it is being treated as such, with restrictions and limits. What truely, on the face of it, appears to be bad for racing are the indian casinos. The ability for race track operators to compete with casinos seems to be lacking. Why fight the battles with the ADW companies and the subscribers when the real war is with the other venues available for the gambling dollar? Do race tracks lose money when they sell their product? Do they lose money when an ADW company makes a deal with them? It's almost certain that if satellite wagering was not around, a lot of tracks would now be closed due to the competition from the casinos.

As a pissed off punter, my wagering is not biased one way or the other on whether the race is in state or out of state. For me, I don't care where the track is located. I probably wagered on just as many SAR races this last summer as I did DMR -- and I was on track at DMR.

What I don't like is being subjected to the whims of the horse owning groups like the CA TOC. By all means, they have a legitimate and valid function. But when the TOC apparently has veto power over PTC being able to do business with the tracks in CA, I think they have too much power.

[Kelso]

The key thing to remember is the horsemen make the most when a punter wagers at the track..... they make cosiderably less when the wager takes place away from the track.


But they make enormously more than they would if the off-track bettor wasn't betting into their pools at all. I'll make book that at most tracks (probably all) the vast majority of off-track handle would not come on-track in the absense of ADWs.

As to rebaters ... onshore rebates have never cost the tracks so much as a penny. The rebates come out of the ADWs' hides, not the tracks'.

Someday, the big tracks will learn what the small tracks are starting to teach them. A rapidly increasing portion of people who bet on horse races will bet where their potential net is maximized; i.e., where they get rebates. The efforts of several leaders on this website are hastening the advent of that day.

[spilparc]

Why?

2) cushy jobs and fat cat salaries/bonuses

Richie

Back when the whole Woodbine (WEG) debate was going on someone provided this link to the Woodbine Management Team (http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/corporate/management_team.html)in case you wanted to send them an e-mail.

When I looked at that page the first thing that stuck me was the list of 14 Vice-Presidents.

Can you say, "There's lots of room at the top."