Presque Isle Surface Analysis

[Premier Turf Club]

We've posted the first part of our analysis of the new Presque Isle surface. tommorow or Sunday we should have the second part up, a list of sires we think whose progeny will excel over the new surface.

Tapeta is a very interesting surface and its installation might make for some very good betting opportunities if the crowd plays the races the way we think they will.

Please check out our site at www.premierturfclub.com to demo our software. You can sign-up now to play Presque Isle or any of the other exciting tracks we've got on our menu. In addition, feel free to contact me at ian@premierturfclub.com with any questions.

[DanG]

Outstanding work as always Ian!!!

Thank you very much. :ThmbUp:

[Pgh. Gere]

Thanks Ian!! Looking forward to the meet and the info should come in handy.

[bigmack]

In the maiden voyage on the tapeta tossed track the Lake trained, pace setting, chalk pulled up after 2.

From appearances a handful looks reminiscent of a clumpy geriatric Tribble from a long forgotten Star Trek episode.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/tapeta_close1.jpg

[stuball]

Fav broke down in the first at PID...gotta be bad for injury stats

Stu

[Premier Turf Club]

Big footed horses have done well in the first 2, and the small footed 2nd fave in the 2nd didn't care for the surface. In the 3rd 1, 2,4,6 look like they'll take to the surface whereas the 5,7, 10 don't look as strong. Later on in the card big footed Museeb 7th would be a play at 3-1+.

[JustRalph]

Big footed horses have done well in the first 2, and the small footed 2nd fave in the 2nd didn't care for the surface. In the 3rd 1, 2,4,6 look like they'll take to the surface whereas the 5,7, 10 don't look as strong. Later on in the card big footed Museeb 7th would be a play at 3-1+.

can you forward me that list of shoe sizes?

:lol:

[njcurveball]

Big footed horses have done well in the first 2,



Do you have someone actually measuring these or just sight checking?

[Premier Turf Club]

Do you have someone actually measuring these or just sight checking?

My partner is actually the confirmation expert. Many of these he's seen before, some he's checking off the video (he can tell pretty easily), some he's going off the bloodlines (e.g., dam & sire were both small-footed so I expect this horse to be small-footed). He's going to put together a list of sires that we think will do well. We're just a day or two behind on that because he had surgery Thursday.

Overall, it's playing sort of in-between Poly & dirt, maybe like the "good" turf course Dickinson talks about. The fractions all seem reasonable and there's no kickback. Pools are a lot smaller than I thought they'd be though.

[Kelso]

He's going to put together a list of sires that we think will do well. We're just a day or two behind on that because he had surgery Thursday.



What ... they don't allow pencils in the recovery room? Tell 'im to get a pen from the nurse. It's Saturday, already! :D

[Premier Turf Club]

What ... they don't allow pencils in the recovery room? Tell 'im to get a pen from the nurse. It's Saturday, already! :D

He's actually out of the hospital but is resting at home.

Slacker.;)

[stuball]

great info....keep it coming

Stuball :ThmbUp:

[shanta]

First impression is that this tapeta stuff plays very fair man. Very fair.

Kudos to PID :ThmbUp: for going with it as their surface.

[Premier Turf Club]

great info....keep it coming

Stuball :ThmbUp:

Thank you. I know the report probably didn't look like much but we put a lot of research into it. I'm looking forward to adding the list of sires.

I like doing this stuff WAY more than I like fighting over signals. :)

[BIG RED]

Who is out of Sasquatch? :D :cool:

I need the inside dope!

[cj]

After one day, I don't see much different from the other synthetic surfaces. Speed seems to do fine in sprints, but will probably really be up against it around two turns.

Again though, it is early, so we will see.

[Premier Turf Club]

Who is out of Sasquatch? :D :cool:


It took me awhile. :lol:

In KY they call my partner Dr. Shoe because he can spend hours and hours talking about shoeing, feet, confirmation. I've seen him come up with some ridiculous longshots based on how he thought a particular confirmation would take to a surface. A number of high profile trainers ask his advice on whether a horse will like a particular surface before they try them on it (turf, mud, shipping out of town, Poly, etc.).

I think he would have been a very successful trainer (he and Shug worked together at one point) but he didn't have the owners and he took to selling horse farms. We're looking forward to him providing real-time paddock insights at some point down the road.

[JustMissed]

Big footed horses have done well in the first 2, and the small footed 2nd fave in the 2nd didn't care for the surface. In the 3rd 1, 2,4,6 look like they'll take to the surface whereas the 5,7, 10 don't look as strong. Later on in the card big footed Museeb 7th would be a play at 3-1+.

I will be working my third consecutive week in Ocala, Florida next week.

I usually finish up at the simulcast bar about 2:00 pm, in time to catch quite a few races, and thought I might print a copy of your post to show the boys(mostly owners, barn managers & workout jockeys).

Knowing that most of the boys are not covered by WorkersCompensation Insurance I decided that would not be a good thing. If they read your comment about "big footed horses" they might very well bust a gut from laughing so hard. I don't believe "bust a gut syndrome" is covered by most insurance.

Maybe you should be more carefull about what you write.

JM :cool:

[Premier Turf Club]

I don't follow? Do you not believe that certain types of confirmation like certain tracks or that big-footed horses don't have an advantage on Tapeta?

The comment on foot size came not from me, but from Michael Dickinson's assistant Henrietta Steele who told us that small footed horses won't be as disadvantaged on Tapeta as they are on Poly but added that there big footed grass horses really seemed to like the surface.

[JustMissed]

I don't follow? Do you not believe that certain types of confirmation like certain tracks or that big-footed horses don't have an advantage on Tapeta?

The comment on foot size came not from me, but from Michael Dickinson's assistant Henrietta Steele who told us that small footed horses won't be as disadvantaged on Tapeta as they are on Poly but added that there big footed grass horses really seemed to like the surface.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'll show your post to the pinhookers. I think they might find it very interesting.

JM :)

[DanG]

Thanks for the clarification.

I'll show your post to the pinhookers. I think they might find it very interesting.

JM :)
JM,

Do you ever make it over to Tampa Bay Downs?

I just have to see who’s on the other end of this trolling… :jump: :jump:

[JustMissed]

JM,

Do you ever make it over to Tampa Bay Downs?

I just have to see who’s on the other end of this trolling… :jump: :jump:
Yes, I live on the Dunedin Causeway, about six miles or so fromTBD. Me and my three sons would be glad to me with you anywhere you choose.

Not sure what you ment about trolling,, but I'm sure you will be happy to clarify that.

[DanG]

Yes, I live on the Dunedin Causeway, about six miles or so fromTBD. Me and my three sons would be glad to me with you anywhere you choose.

Not sure what you ment about trolling,, but I'm sure you will be happy to clarify that.
All right!

Just a few months until Margo is picking winner after winner. Please notify me when it’s a good time for you and we can reminisce about racing, trolling or whatever. :)

Now back to this excellent thread that Ian (PTC) has generously offered. :ThmbUp:

[JustMissed]

All right!

Just a few months until Margo is picking winner after winner. Please notify me when it’s a good time for you and we can reminisce about racing, trolling or whatever. :)

Now back to this excellent thread that Ian (PTC) has generously offered. :ThmbUp:

Thanks, I think is get it. Sorry that I might have steped on some toes.

I willl not post anymore.

Good luck to you guys,

JM :)

[bigmack]

In the maiden voyage on the tapeta tossed track the Lake trained, pace setting chalk pulled up after 2.
Tragically euthanized.

Total attendance: 15737. Number of betting windows open: 14!

[JustRalph]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2007/September/01/Presque-Isle-springs-the-latch-on-inaugural-meet.aspx

Tapeta Footings inventor Michael Dickinson experienced a nightmare come true on Saturday at Presque Isle Downs in Erie, Pennsylvania, when a horse broke down in the first race ever run on the synthetic surface.

The fatal breakdown of Home Team Stables’ and Dennis Johnson’s Cantrel marred an otherwise thrilling beginning to Presque Isle, which began its inaugural 25-day meet with the $100,000 Inaugural Stakes for three-year-old fillies going six furlongs.

more at the link

[speedking]

I don't follow? Do you not believe that certain types of confirmation like certain tracks or that big-footed horses don't have an advantage on Tapeta?

The comment on foot size came not from me, but from Michael Dickinson's assistant Henrietta Steele who told us that small footed horses won't be as disadvantaged on Tapeta as they are on Poly but added that there big footed grass horses really seemed to like the surface.


I spent many years on-track and was at the paddock for every race, weather permitting. Among other things, I always looked at the size of the hoof for grass races and off tracks, along with trying to check for calks.

A large, flat hoof is beneficial on the turf and some say it helps on synthetics also. A smaller hoof does well on off tracks. Taught this by PG Johnson, who knew a thing or 2 about turf horses:)

speedking

[DanG]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2007/September/01/Presque-Isle-springs-the-latch-on-inaugural-meet.aspx

Tapeta Footings inventor Michael Dickinson experienced a nightmare come true on Saturday at Presque Isle Downs in Erie, Pennsylvania, when a horse broke down in the first race ever run on the synthetic surface.

The fatal breakdown of Home Team Stables’ and Dennis Johnson’s Cantrel marred an otherwise thrilling beginning to Presque Isle, which began its inaugural 25-day meet with the $100,000 Inaugural Stakes for three-year-old fillies going six furlongs.

more at the link
Lake’s quote from the article;

“I breezed five horses over [Tapeta on Saturday morning], and they all went great,” said Lake, who has 24 horses stabled at Presque Isle. “I brought horses here who haven’t trained well [on dirt] who have really found their stride here. [Cantrel] just took a bad step; there’s nothing wrong with the track.”
IMHO: Tapeta along with “Cushion track” will prove to be the best of the new surfaces for American racing. :ThmbUp:

[rrbauer]

I spent many years on-track and was at the paddock for every race, weather permitting. Among other things, I always looked at the size of the hoof for grass races and off tracks, along with trying to check for calks.

A large, flat hoof is beneficial on the turf and some say it helps on synthetics also. A smaller hoof does well on off tracks. Taught this by PG Johnson, who knew a thing or 2 about turf horses:)

speedking

The big pancake-hoof doing well on grass is older than I am (which makes it ancient). It's a very good indicator IMO. PI was getting ripped at another board because speed horses were dying on the vine. Yet from what I'm reading here that's not the case?

[Premier Turf Club]

I didn't think speed was all that bad. Look at the running styles of the winners:

Race 1 Sprint: Presser
Race 2 Sprint: Sustained
Race 3 Sprint: Wire to Wire
Race 4 Sprint Presser/Sustained
Race 5 Route: Sustained
Race 6 Route: Sustained
Race 7 Sprint: Wire to Wire
Race 8 Sprint: Presser

It's not Turf Paradise, but it's not all 3rd fraction either. My guess is using the HTR scale of (+5 intense speed to -5 all 3rd fraction horses) that sprints will run about 0/-1 and routes -1/-2. I don't think we'll see some of the crazy Polytrack races where GR1 types run 6F in 116 and all finish within 2 lengths of each other.

[JustRalph]

it reminded me of true speed horses that have run at Del Mar.......the cheap ones end up in the back........the nicer ones stayed on to hit the board.....with only one card to look at.......who knows?

[Red Knave]

... certain types of confirmation ... Um, Ian, I only mention this since you spelled it this way twice, I believe you mean conformation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_conformation

(DictionaryMan strikes again:) )

[Premier Turf Club]

Um, Ian, I only mention this since you spelled it this way twice, I believe you mean conformation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_conformation

(DictionaryMan strikes again:) )

Thanks. You mean it's not like communion? Sorry, that's what happens sometimes when you use spell check.

My wife (who was a writer and copy editor for many years)my is my proof reader so I guess I'll have to fire her. :)

[Kelso]

My wife (who was a writer and copy editor for many years)my is my proof reader so I guess I'll have to fire her. :)


Perhaps you should consider trying to recover some of her back pay, as well? :bang:

[rusrious]

Hey guys, this is a very nice track.. I live in Erie, and plan on making the 5 mile trip every race.. I love it, and couldn't wait for this to happen..

[rusrious]

Pretty interesting.. ( PDF ), Thanks for the info.. I have looked in the thread, but I need the second part, for info on the blodlines, which MIGHT excel on this surface.. I will be attending the rest of the season often, as this will be my home track.. I love the sport.. I'm really starting to " get good " at picking the BETTER horses, usually always the place pick atleast.. If i can use the info I know, and the visual aspect, I might be able to peice this game together, LOL..

By the way, the track and atmosphere is beautiful.. Parking is free, admission is free, nice large homey feel.. The casino attached is cool too.. ( slots )

Ok, see ya.. I will let ya know the experiance..

Good Luck Today

[Fred]

Hey guys, this is a very nice track.. I live in Erie, and plan on making the 5 mile trip every race.. I love it, and couldn't wait for this to happen..

Rusrious

I opened the Long John Silver's on Peach Street in early '70's. I am curious-Is it still there?



Freddy

[rusrious]

No kidding.. Yes, it is still there.. Next to a gas station? It is my favorite one, food is always tasty.. Thats cool Fred.. I'll have to get a pic for ya, LOL...

[joeyreb]

Here's a link for Track Profile for the new Tapeta track, I made

Early look, it seems like it's playing closer to Cushion Track than Polytrack

http://www.inside-the-paddock.com/treport.htm

Good Luck

Joe

[BIG49010]

Can anybody tell me if it rained at PID on Sunday, the track appeared to tighten up quite a bit?