First Rove Now Gonzo

[hcap]

Well it's about time

http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/banana.gif

http://vaultmedia.ign.com/vnboards/2006/c-c_brian3.gif


http://adherents.free.fr/blog/images/G%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral/banana-dance.gif

[Gibbon]

Once again, memory is a frail and feeble thing. Whether it is an intentional forgetfulness is left to the mind of a beholder.

Once again a brief walk down recent history…

Billy boy’s RECORDS -->

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

According to our best information, 40 government officials were indicted or convicted in the wake of Watergate. A reader computes that there were a total of 31 Reagan era convictions, including 14 because of Iran-Contra and 16 in the Department of Housing & Urban Development scandal. 47 individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine were convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes with 33 of these occurring during the Clinton administration itself. There were in addition 61 indictments or misdemeanor charges. 14 persons were imprisoned. A key difference between the Clinton story and earlier ones was the number of criminals with whom he was associated before entering the White House.

CRIME STATS

- Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes: 47
- Number of these convictions during Clinton's presidency: 33
- Number of indictments/misdemeanor charges: 61
- Number of congressional witnesses who have pleaded the Fifth Amendment, fled the country to avoid testifying, or (in the case of foreign witnesses) refused to be interviewed: 122

CAMPAIGN FINANCE INVESTIGATION

- As of June 2000, the Justice Department listed 25 people indicted and 19 convicted because of the 1996 Clinton-Gore fundraising scandals.
- According to the House Committee on Government Reform in September 2000, 79 House and Senate witnesses asserted the Fifth Amendment in the course of investigations into Gore's last fundraising campaign.
-James Riady entered a plea agreement to pay an $8.5 million fine for campaign finance crimes. This was a record under campaign finance laws.

[Gibbon]

ARKANSAS ALTZHEIMER'S

Number of times that Clinton figures who testified in court or before Congress said that they didn't remember, didn't know, or something similar.

Bill Kennedy 116
Harold Ickes 148
Ricki Seidman 160
Bruce Lindsey 161
Bill Burton 191
Mark Gearan 221
Mack McLarty 233
Neil Egglseston 250
Hillary Clinton 250
John Podesta 264
Jennifer O'Connor 343
Dwight Holton 348
Patsy Thomasson 420
Jeff Eller 697

ARKANSAS MONEY MANAGEMENT

- Amount of an alleged electronic transfer from the Arkansas Development Financial Authority to a bank in the Cayman Islands during 1980s: $50 million
- Grand Cayman's population: 18,000
- Number of commercial banks: 570
- Number of bank regulators: 1
- Amount Arkansas state pension fund invested in high-risk repos in the mid-80s in one purchase in April 1985: $52 million through the Worthen Bank.
- Number of days thereafter that the state's brokerage firm went belly up: 3
- Amount Arkansas pension fund dropped overnight as a result: 15%
- Percent of Worthen bank that Mochtar Riady bought over the next four months to bail out the bank and the then governor, Bill Clinton: 40%.
- Percent of purchasers from the Clintons and McDougals of resort lots who lost the land because of the sleazy financing provisions: over 50%

THE MEDIA

- Number of journalists covering Whitewater who have been fired, transferred off the beat, resigned or otherwise gotten into trouble because of their work on the scandals (Doug Frantz, Jim Wooten, Richard Behar, Christopher Ruddy, Michael Isikoff, David Eisenstadt, Yinh Chan, Jonathan Broder, James R. Norman, Zoh Hieronimus): 10

FRIENDS OF BILL

- Number of times John Huang took the 5th Amendment in answer to questions during a Judicial Watch deposition: 1,000
- Visits made to the White House by investigation subjects Johnny Chung, James Riady, John Huang, and Charlie Trie. 160
- Number of campaign contributors who got overnights at the White House in the two years before the 1996 election: 577
- Number of members of Thomas Boggs's law firm who have held top positions in the Clinton administration. 18
- Number of times John Huang was briefed by CIA: 37
- Number of calls Huang made from Commerce Department to Lippo banks: 261
- Number of intelligence reports Huang read while at Commerce Department: 500

[Gibbon]

UNEXPLAINED PHENOMENA

- FBI files misappropriated by the White House: c. 900
- Estimated number of witnesses quoted in FBI files misappropriated by the White House: 18,000
- Number of witnesses who developed medical problems at critical points in Clinton scandals investigation (Tucker, Hale, both McDougals, Lindsey): 5
- Problem areas listed in a memo by Clinton's own lawyer in preparation for the president's defense: 40
- Number of witnesses and critics of Clinton subjected to IRS audit: 45
- Number of names placed in a White House secret database without the knowledge of those named: c. 200,000
- Number of women involved with Clinton who claim to have been physically threatened (Sally Perdue, Gennifer Flowers, Kathleen Willey, Linda Tripp, Elizabeth Ward Gracen, Juantia Broaddrick): 6
- Number of men involved in the Clinton scandals who have been beaten up or claimed to have been intimidated: 10

[Gibbon]

The above was compiled using various sources both online and off. Also, the congressional record (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/index.html) was extensively used.

~ Gibbon

[Tom]

Wow, Gibbon.....nice stats! :jump:

[Gibbon]

Say hcap, what will you do when Giuliani seizes power?






______________________
At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols. ~ Aldous Huxley

[ArlJim78]

UNEXPLAINED PHENOMENA

- FBI files misappropriated by the White House: c. 900
- Estimated number of witnesses quoted in FBI files misappropriated by the White House: 18,000
- Number of witnesses who developed medical problems at critical points in Clinton scandals investigation (Tucker, Hale, both McDougals, Lindsey): 5
- Problem areas listed in a memo by Clinton's own lawyer in preparation for the president's defense: 40
- Number of witnesses and critics of Clinton subjected to IRS audit: 45
- Number of names placed in a White House secret database without the knowledge of those named: c. 200,000
- Number of women involved with Clinton who claim to have been physically threatened (Sally Perdue, Gennifer Flowers, Kathleen Willey, Linda Tripp, Elizabeth Ward Gracen, Juantia Broaddrick): 6
- Number of men involved in the Clinton scandals who have been beaten up or claimed to have been intimidated: 10
nice list, does it include the papers from the National Archives that Sandy Berger accidently stuffed in his pants?

[Gibbon]

nice list, does it include the papers from the National Archives that Sandy Berger accidently stuffed in his pants? Besides the usual dumbing down of hard news from traditional media outlets; unfortunately there was a complete information blackout concerning documents removed.






________________________
If a politician isn't doing it to his wife , then he's doing it to his country. ~ Amy Grant

[ArlJim78]

Besides the usual dumbing down of hard news from traditional media outlets; unfortunately there was a complete information blackout concerning documents removed.
thanks,

another good list is the list of Clintons pardons, Marc Rich etc.

[Gibbon]

Tom,

I spent considerable time compiling this list…
However, it in no way implies I love GW. Hardly!

What are the alternatives? Tom Tancredo (http://www.teamtancredo.com/) and/or
Ron Paul (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/) have little chance at leadership positions.
So I’m forced to support mainstream Republicans candidates
for fear of giving our country away to Dems.





_____________________
A good politician is quite as unthinkable as an honest burglar. ~ Henry Louis Mencken

[Tom]

Besides the usual dumbing down of hard news from traditional media outlets....

Don't forget "tarting up!" :lol:

[Tom]

Tom,

I spent considerable time compiling this list…
However, it in no way implies I love GW. Hardly!

_____________________
A good politician is quite as unthinkable as an honest burglar. ~ Henry Louis Mencken

Me neither. I think he has done a terrible job overall. I think Gonzalas should have gone, but not for any of the reasons talked about. I think he totally failed to enforce the laws and that was more than enough to dump the jerk.
Same goes for Bush - I support impeachment on those lines - failing to enforce the laws of the land.

I don't know who to support, but it will never be a dem.

[Suff]

Tom,

I spent considerable time compiling this list…


No. You didnt.

[Gibbon]

Suff,

I knew you would find me out. You caught me! I’m secretly a drone for the Republican National Committee. As a drone I take my orders from superiors who told me to propagandize this BBS. I cannot break free from my masters. I am commanded to post the following -->

The Clinton Body Count;
http://www.zpub.com/un/un-bc-body.html



Clinton shows off his communist economic roots
from your beloved Washington Post;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/18/AR2006101801100.html


I am in need of immediate help. Can a member for the Democratic National Committee reach out to this deceived Neanderthal?






__________________________
Instead of giving a politician the keys to the city, it might be better to change the locks. ~ Doug Larson

[Bill Olmsted]

Where WILL it end?!!
I am SHOCKED!
SHOCKED!



WASHINGTON (Aug. 27) — Senator Larry E. Craig, Republican of Idaho, was arrested in June by an undercover police officer in a men’s bathroom at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport, and pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct in the case three weeks ago.

By Roll Call’s account, the officer said Mr. Craig had tapped his foot, in what the officer called a known signal to engage in lewd conduct, and had also brushed his foot against the investigator’s and waved his hand under the stall divider several times before the officer showed him his badge.

Mr. Craig, whose seat is up for election next year, is the second senator in recent weeks to find his personal behavior under scrutiny. Senator David Vitter, Republican of Louisiana, was implicated in a separate case in the Washington area when his phone number turned up in the records of an escort service that the authorities have described as a prostitution ring. Mr. Vitter made a public apology for what he called “a very serious sin in my past,” but he has not been charged with any crime.

[ArlJim78]

I predict that the senator will be finding Jesus before the end of the week.

[Bill Olmsted]

Jesus has been a bad play lately for the right-wing. Big J just ain't buyin' and neither is the American public.

Tough times in RepublicanVille.

Very sad...very say indeed....

[JustRalph]

what a whiner............now he is crying .........after he pleads guilty. Just go away already...........

[Tom]

Just another stall stalker.

[wonatthewire1]

*** what a whiner............now he is crying .........after he pleads guilty. Just go away already...........***


Hey, not so fast there buddy.

If'n he's gotta go back to ID, there might not be that many 'targets' - DC is crawling with his type. Must be a difficult life living both sides of an issue, one side is what he is and the other side is paying his bills & giving him power. The police guy was relating that the Senator was doing all the stuff that would indicate that he was trolling, i.e. blocking the stall door, waving from under the partition, etc. When advised that the target of his affection was a cop, the Senator said "NO!" :)

Pubs used to resign when they got in trouble, looks like that trend (Vitters and now this guy) has died out.

What ever happened to that Jefferson dude with the 'cold cash'?

[Maji]

Pubs used to resign when they got in trouble, looks like that trend (Vitters and now this guy) has died out.

What ever happened to that Jefferson dude with the 'cold cash'?

That William Jefferson dude is supposed to be tried in a court of law, where he will get a chance to prove his innocence.

As for the Idahoan, he already pleaded guilty. He now wishes that he did not.

When it comes to Vitter, I am not sure if he broke any laws of the United States of America. However, he pleaded guilty of "serious sins" to his wife and God :confused:

[PaceAdvantage]

Jesus has been a bad play lately for the right-wing. Big J just ain't buyin' and neither is the American public.

Tough times in RepublicanVille.

Very sad...very say indeed....

I can't wait to read this board the morning of November 5, 2008. But then again, I couldn't wait to read this board the morning of November 3, 2004....a couple of you stated you wouldn't be back after Bush won, but they're still here....

Nothing ever changes....

But a Republican will win the White House in 2008. That's a lock if all you have to offer is Clinton/Obama.

[hcap]

"But a Republican will win the White House in 2008. That's a lock if all you have to offer is Clinton/Obama."

2006 should have shown you you are on the losing side.

[hcap]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/19378.html

Sour Americans hungry for change as election approaches

....It's a sour mood," said David Johnson, a former aide to Kansas Republican Bob Dole's 1996 presidential campaign. His public relations firm, Strategic Vision, conducted the poll for corporate clients.

"There's a feeling that things are not going well. There are concerns about the economy, concerns about Iraq. ... They don't want a third term for Bush, not even Republicans. Among Democrats, I've never seen anything like it. And independents just want to be done with him."

[PaceAdvantage]

2006 should have shown you you are on the losing side.

You said the same thing in 2004. You couldn't beat Bush in 2004. That was a laugher. A monkey should have been able to beat Bush in 2004.

Now the DNC has put up two more fairly unelectable candidates. Good luck to you. You'll still need it, even in this kind of atmosphere, which is really, really sad.

[hcap]

Any one-any repub associating themselves with the so-called "war president" like youse guys have, are not being believed. The lies are falling on deaf ears.

Here's an example...

"Sometimes, Bush’s lies catch up with him. In a new book that is out Tuesday, author Robert Draper states that Bush claims he never approved or was told about plans to disband the Iraqi army, and instead wanted it kept intact. Bush’s attempt to blame Paul Bremer for one of the biggest mistakes of the post-invasion period shouldn’t surprise anyone, since Bush never accepts responsibility for his mistakes.

Unfortunately for Bush, Paul Bremer wasn’t going to take this one lying down.

A previously undisclosed exchange of letters shows that President Bush was told in advance by his top Iraq envoy in May 2003 of a plan to “dissolve Saddam’s military and intelligence structures,” a plan that the envoy, L. Paul Bremer, said referred to dismantling the Iraqi Army.

Mr. Bremer provided the letters to The New York Times on Monday after reading that Mr. Bush was quoted in a new book as saying that American policy had been “to keep the army intact” but that it “didn’t happen.”

The dismantling of the Iraqi Army in the aftermath of the American invasion is now widely regarded as a mistake that stoked rebellion among hundreds of thousands of former Iraqi soldiers and made it more difficult to reduce sectarian bloodshed and attacks by insurgents. In releasing the letters, Mr. Bremer said he wanted to refute the suggestion in Mr. Bush’s comment that Mr. Bremer had acted to disband the army without the knowledge and concurrence of the White House."

..........................................
Who do you believe bunky?

[hcap]

Speaking of bullshit...

Mine eyes have seen da glory of da coming of da CLOD.

"Bush's trip to Anbar was not just a photo-op start to the September PR blitz in support of the surge. According to Fred Kagan, proud author of the surge, it was somehow akin to Lincoln at Gettysburg. Even if he has to say so himself."

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MGM2YWI4ODI0MDA1ZjczOTFjNDNkMGQzMzM0MGQ4Mjg=

The Gettysburg Of This War: The Bush Visit Could Well Mark A Key Turning Point In The War In Iraq And The War On Terror.

HaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHa HediHoHediHay

[PaceAdvantage]

The Gettysburg Of This War: The Bush Visit Could Well Mark A Key Turning Point In The War In Iraq And The War On Terror.

HaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHa HediHoHediHay

Yeah, a turnaround would be very bad for your anti-American agenda. I understand.

Nothing short of a lone helicopter (maybe we can dig up a Huey) on the roof of some apartment building will be enough to satisfy you, right hcap?

[hcap]

Yeah, a turnaround would be very bad for your anti-American agenda. I understand.

Nothing short of a lone helicopter (maybe we can dig up a Huey) on the roof of some apartment building will be enough to satisfy you, right hcap?There is no turnaround. The surge is not going to do it.
250,000 men might in the short run tactically, but strategically without a political solution the entire region will remain the same or worse.

Photo Op???
Yes
Lincoln at Gettysburg?
I think I will repeat my comment

HaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHa HediHoHediHay


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/opinion/05wed1.html?_r=2&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

"Mr. Bush’s only destination was an isolated, well-fortified air base in Anbar Province, not Baghdad where his so-called surge was supposed to bring stability and persuade Iraqi politicians that they had more to gain from reconciliation than score-settling. We suppose Mr. Bush could claim one success for his visit: he did manage to get Iraq’s Shiite prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, to visit the Sunni-dominated province."

[hcap]

Maybe all youse John Wayne wannabees can harmonize and whenever someone points out a fact or number of facts contrary to the party line, you can stick your fingers, elbows, or other body parts in your ears, make like monkeys who hear no evil and shout some ear blocking

WahWahWahWahWahWahWahWahWahWahWahWah-until the bad tasting medicine goes away.

Swallowing the truth may taste bad, but is the truth.
Or you guys can harmonize and drown out us peace-nik, pinko commie cheese eating surrender frenchies with oldies but goodies...

A-won and a-too

Fighting soldiers from the sky
Fearless men who jump and die
Men who mean just what they say
The brave men of the Green Beret

Silver wings upon their chest
These are men, America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three win the Green Beret

Trained to live off nature's land
Trained in combat, hand-to-hand
Men who fight by night and day
Courage peak from the Green Berets

Silver wings upon their chest
These are men, America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three win the Green Beret

Back at home a young wife waits
Her Green Beret has met his fate
He has died for those oppressed
Leaving her his last request

Put silver wings on my son's chest
Make him one of America's best
He'll be a man they'll test one day
Have him win the Green Beret.

[hcap]

Overheard in Australia, Bush tells minister 'we're kicking ass' in Iraq

http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Bush_tells_Deputy_Australian_Prime_Minister_0905.h tml

Speaking of John Wayne wannabees

[Gibbon]

Maybe all youse John Wayne wannabees...... Is this a thinly veiled covert statement referencing Bill C.? Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Fox) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugos lavia).

Democratic bombs are sooooo much more fun don't you suff, and zilzal think?
Perhaps if Dem front runner Hillary {who voted for war and as of yet, has not recanted her vote} placed sexually neutral insignia on some bombs; would this satisfy you.

John Wayne military service controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Military_service_controversy) .

[hcap]

Is this a thinly veiled covert statement referencing Bill C.Not at all. It was an obvious George W Churchill refrerence. And even tho' I was no great fan of Bill C., considering the last six woeful years, I sure miss him. Baggage and all.

BTW, Gibbon are you Tom's avatar all grown up and literate? :jump:

[lsbets]

There is no turnaround. The surge is not going to do it.
250,000 men might in the short run tactically, but strategically without a political solution the entire region will remain the same or worse.

Photo Op???
Yes
Lincoln at Gettysburg?
I think I will repeat my comment

HaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHaHediHoHediHayHaHaHaHa HediHoHediHay


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/opinion/05wed1.html?_r=2&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

"Mr. Bush’s only destination was an isolated, well-fortified air base in Anbar Province, not Baghdad where his so-called surge was supposed to bring stability and persuade Iraqi politicians that they had more to gain from reconciliation than score-settling. We suppose Mr. Bush could claim one success for his visit: he did manage to get Iraq’s Shiite prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, to visit the Sunni-dominated province."

Well Hcrap , considering what Al Asad was like when I used to go there on a regular basis, I find it remarkable that the area has now been pacified. Anyone who has ever had the joy of driving from Baghdad to Al Asad would hardly call it isolated and well fortified. That used to be the most dangerous trip we made, and I almost lost my life a few times in Hit (a city near Al Asad). So, whether you want to admit it or not, the security situation has improved dramatically, and it will be impossible for a political solution to take hold until the security situation is fixed. Our troops are doing remarkable things, but your agenda requires that you minimize the accomplishments being made every day.

[hcap]

So Lshits, why not secretly fly into Baghdad?
The home of the surge.

On second thought if they did we might then have an official President Cheney.

But what do you think of the Lincoln/bush Gettysburg/Anbar comparison?

Are you whistling the Ballad of The Green Berets yet?

BTW, you can rent the movie

[PaceAdvantage]

So Lshits, why not secretly fly into Baghdad?

And if I were to ban hcap for calling Lsbets Lshits, which really is against the rules, I would be accused of banning him on polical grounds, nevermind the fact he's been posting stuff for YEARS AND YEARS that I disagree with.

You see, I can't win in a situation like this.

[hcap]

You know maybe Sec is correct about your apparent favoritism.

Look at his post just previous to mine. Ya know the one where Mr Good Taste in posting says
Well Hcrap , considering what Al Asad was like when I used to go there on a regular basisBlah blah blah. You of course did not even see Ls calling me that first.

Now maybe you will stop worrying about words and ban Mr Genocide Tom and others for advocating murdering children.

Gee what does that bastion of propriety cop show HILL STREET BLUES say about infanticide? Something like "Let's Ride" I guess?

[PaceAdvantage]

Actually, I missed the Hcrap, quite simply, because it isn't much different than Hcap. Lshits is a lot more noticable when compared to Lsbets.

I know for a fact I've told Lsbets not to do this in the past. In fact, I think I've had to get between you two before when you both resorted to this petty romper room baloney.

As for Tom's "nuke-em-all" speeches, that isn't against the TOS unless it is posted in the horse racing section of the board.

Anything else you'd like clarified?

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey Hcap, if it's so bad around here, and I'm such a biased, unfair moderator, why do you hang around?

[Gibbon]

BTW, Gibbon are you Tom's avatar all grown up and literate? Well, it just so happens Tom's prescription for humanity is simply, clear and practical. Tom's always sensible posts may save humanity from itself.

I am curious as to the meaning of your Avatar. One can't help but to ponder if Americas' original inhabitants had an immigration policy we wouldn't be communicating.

The early American Indians – no wait, did I say Indians? Or, could what we now call American Indians ANNEX North America from someone else? Here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10441210/) and here (http://www.courier-journal.com/foryourinfo/112403/112403.html).




Doesn't logic hold that the American Indians wiped out some earlier civilization? Isn't that what civilizations do? The more advanced one supplants the more primitive. What, are the American Indians above this?


I'm part Apache and Commanche. I can vouch for how bloodthirsty and violent they can be (though they'd much rather blame the 'white man' for it)

[hcap]

Actually, I missed the Hcrap, quite simply, because it isn't much different than Hcap. Lshits is a lot more noticable when compared to Lsbets.

I know for a fact I've told Lsbets not to do this in the past. In fact, I think I've had to get between you two before when you both resorted to this petty romper room baloney.

As for Tom's "nuke-em-all" speeches, that isn't against the TOS unless it is posted in the horse racing section of the board.

Anything else you'd like clarified?What a load. I just finished what he started. Now you help him out and prove that he did not libel me.

Show me one quote where I stabbed the troops in the back
Hey Hcap, if it's so bad around here, and I'm such a biased, unfair moderator, why do you hang aroundYou know I never thought of you as unfair until recently when you shut down dissent on the Chavez thread. The off topic board is dominated by the bush brigade. But that's the way it has been since I joined. So not much has changed, except I and others get to say "we told you so", and watch the wiggling and squirming. :bang:

[hcap]

GibbonWell, it just so happens Tom's prescription for humanity is simply, clear and practical. Tom's always sensible posts may save humanity from itself.

I am curious as to the meaning of your Avatar. One can't help but to ponder if Americas' original inhabitants had an immigration policy we wouldn't be communicating.

You are Tom's avatar all grown up. A babboon grows into a gibbon, how charming. Still preaching the infinite slew of monkeys typing on an infinite number of typewriters for an infinite number of years foreign policy doctrine.
Eventually you guys will outshine Kissinger.


Dr genocide Tom is prescribing bogus medications.

My avatar is to make you feel conscience. Guilt is not just a Jewish phenomena

[lsbets]

What a load. I just finished what he started. Now you help him out and prove that he did not libel me.

Show me one quote where I stabbed the troops in the back


Your open rooting and hoping that Lancet is true. Yet another example (on top of the ones I already showed you). Back to the corner and cry somemore. Come out when you can be honest for once.

[hcap]

Yet another example (on top of the ones I already showed you)
You showed nothing except that I have disdain for you.

And "rooting and hoping" is your interpretation of me agreeing with and linking to anyone who thinks there is some truth in the Lancet report.
More importantly if the Lancet is correct it is a condemnation of our policy, not servicemen. Ya know those fine folks who brought us pre-emption, shock and awe, and hair trigger invasions even as the UN inspectors were reporting no meaningful quantities of WMDs

Show me one quote Ls or it is time for you to Close your Ahole
CYA
Oh wait that also stands for Cover your Ass
Oh wait that works too!

[lsbets]

You don't like my examples - too bad. You can't handle the truth - too bad.

Or, I can be as childish as you - make me. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Perhaps you should STFU or CYA or whatever else you think is clever today. You really appear lost without cartoons.

[hcap]

You have no examples. Calling you fawning or "patriot boy" is disdain aimed at you. Not at anyone serving in the armed forces or even at the idea of serving.

You confuse "you" with all soldiers. You do not represent all soldiers, even tho' you try to come across as the voice of the military. Many dissent. Many no longer believe in the mission. Are they showing "disdain"?

Yes you can be childish. Adults recognize their errors.

[lsbets]

You have no examples. Calling you fawning or "patriot boy" is disdain aimed at you. Not at anyone serving in the armed forces or even at the idea of serving.

You confuse "you" with all soldiers. You do not represent all soldiers, even tho' you try to come across as the voice of the military. Many dissent. Many no longer believe in the mission. Are they showing "disdain"?

Yes you can be childish. Adults recognize their errors.

Blah, blah, blah

Fine - you worship the military Hcap. You recognize those who serve as superior beings whose shining examples you could never hope to live up to, yet you try to emulate on a daily basis. Your hero worship of our military borders on frightening. Thank you for correcting my misperceptions of you.

[hcap]

I don't worship anything. Not a president, not a form of government, not an institution like the military. I recognize the need for all these institutions. When needed. Not when they say they are needed. Certainly not when needs are manufactured by deception.

As Winston W Bush has remarked...

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. ..."

Dissent from Soldiers you do not speak for

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200705/military-dissent

And conservatives

http://www.geocities.com/reconsideringiraq/

[lsbets]

Again you appear to be challenged when it comes to basic understanding. I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself, other than the times I have relayed messages that I have received from friends in the field. I have stated that most of the folks I know in the military continue to believe in the mission. You have stated that you do not respect those who don't recognize the mission as a "failure". I respect the honest, dissenting voices of those who have been there. All too often though I have seen troubling questions about the honesty and motives of those voices that the "anti-war" crowd chooses to highlight.

[46zilzal]

I think many of us depend upon the reports from the entire theater rather than just opinions to know what is going on in this debacle, hence the evaluation.

[hcap]

All too often though I have seen troubling questions about the honesty and motives of those voices that the "anti-war" crowd chooses to highlight.

Operation Iraqi Freedom: Military and political dissent
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Operation_Iraqi_Freedom:_Military_ and_Political_Dissent


* Col. Andrew Bacevich, U.S. Army (retired)
* Gen. Wesley Kanne Clark, U.S. Army (retired) [1]
* Gen. Wayne A. Downing, U.S. Army (retired)
* Philip Gold, U.S. Marine Corps
* Col. David H. Hackworth, U.S. Army
* Gen. Joseph Hoar, U.S. Marine Corps (retired)
* Col. Paul F. Hughes, U.S. Army (retired)
* Gen. James L. Jones, U.S. Marine Corps
* Col. Richard Klass, U.S. Air Force (retired)
* Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, U.S. Air Force (retired)
* Gen. Merrill A. McPeak, U.S. Air Force (retired)
* Gen. Montgomery Meigs, U.S. Army (retired)
* Lt. Gen. T. Michael Moseley, U.S. Air Force
* Gen. William L. Nash, U.S. Army (retired)
* Lt. Gen. William E. Odom, U.S. Army (retired)
* Gen. Colin L. Powell, U.S. Army (retired) and Secretary of State
* Capt. Larry Seaquist, U.S. Navy (retired)
* Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, U.S. Army (retired)
* Lt. Gen. Brent Scowcroft, U.S. Army (retired) and National Security Adviser to Presidents Gerald R. Ford and George H.W. Bush
* Gen. John M. Shalikashvili, U.S. Army (retired)
* Gen. Henry H. Shelton, U.S. Army and former Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff
* Gen. Eric Shinseki, U.S. Army (retired)
* Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack, Jr., U.S. Army (retired)
* Lt. Gen. William S. Wallace
* Col. John Warden, U.S. Air Force (retired)
* James Webb, former Secretary of the Navy and Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan
* Col. Larry Williams, U.S. Marine Corps (retired)
* Maj. Gen. Anthony Zinni, U.S. Marine Corps (retired)

***William F. Buckley
***Maj. Gen. John Batiste
***Major Gen. Paul Eaton

Resignations of International Career Diplomats and Intelligence Officers Who Have Quit Over Iraq

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/resignations.html

.................................................. ......................................


You have stated that you do not respect those who don't recognize the mission as a "failure"
No I have stated I no longer respect you and others in the bush brigadefor your blatant disregard for facts that are contrary to pat answers emanating from this administration and in many cases their lapdog press.

Most others out there in non PA off topic land are actually agreeing with me.

70 % of Americanshave turned against the war and
71 Percent Of Iraqis Want U.S. Forces To Withdraw Within A Year
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/pollf2.gif

.................................................. ...........................
12/29/2006 10:11:00 AM
Iraq poll: U.S. troops departure is asset

BAGHDAD, Dec. 29 (UPI) -- About 90 percent of Iraqis feel the situation in the country was better before the U.S.-led invasion than it is today, according to a new ICRSS poll.

The findings emerged after house-to-house interviews conducted by the ICRSS during the third week of November. About 2,000 people from Baghdad (82 percent), Anbar and Najaf (9 percent each) were randomly asked to express their opinion. Twenty-four percent of the respondents were women.

Only five percent of those questioned said Iraq is better today than in 2003. While 89 percent of the people said the political situation had deteriorated, 79 percent saw a decline in the economic situation; 12 percent felt things had improved and 9 percent said there was no change. Predictably, 95 percent felt the security situation was worse than before.

The results of the poll conducted by the Iraq Centre for Research and Strategic Studies and shared with the Gulf Research Center, has a margin error of +/- 3.1 percent.

The ICRSS is an independent institution "which attempts to spread the conscious necessity of realizing basic freedoms, consolidating democratic values and foundations of civil society."

Nearly 50 percent of the respondents identified themselves only as "Muslims"; 34 percent were Shiites and 14 percent, Sunnis.

.................................................. ................................................

Gee, maybe you can question the polling methodology and make it go away, like the Lancet study

[Tom]

And if I were to ban hcap for calling Lsbets Lshits, which really is against the rules, I would be accused of banning him on polical grounds, nevermind the fact he's been posting stuff for YEARS AND YEARS that I disagree with.

You see, I can't win in a situation like this.

Yes you can! :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

You know I never thought of you as unfair until recently when you shut down dissent on the Chavez thread.

You're distorting facts again. I removed posts from that thread that were OFF TOPIC, because it was my thread, I started it, and I am in a unique position to MAKE SURE things stay on topic, especially in my own threads.

Shut down dissent....what a load of baloney.

If you truly believe that I am shutting down dissent, you shouldn't be posting here any longer. My bet is you'll stick around.

[hcap]

In off topic threads meander all over the place. How come you don't step in and put those back on track?

I got the feeling you wanted to make YOUR point re:Chavez, and inappropriately intervened. A conflict of interest issue for a supposedly neutral moderator.

But then again you are not neutral as you have made abundantly clear.
However in "keeping the thread ON-TOPIC", you did not allow counter arguments that took the Clinton did it too tact, you allow all the time by the bush brigade.

It was particularly egregious because atrocities committed by dictators WE/the US gov have and continue to prop up and support have been much worse than Chavez allegedly stifling the "free press". It is also denying a major argument we debate ALL the time-how we may be partially responsible for blowback from "our monsters" later down the line.

No you don't stifle dissent all the time, but your own personal views did conflict actively on that thread.

In any case I will continue to post.
I admit I do have enough leeway to make a number of points. And as I remarked watching you gentlemen franticly still supporting and towing the line, at times borders on the absurd and often it is very funny.

And I still maintain calling for genocide is much worse than abbreviating 4 words by using the first letter-STFU. I agree using the full words are a violation of TOS, and right after the election I did use and link to an article that did not abbreviate. After strong feedback I apologized and no longer use the unabbreviated form.

Ok Pa draw the line. Is F**k ok?
Is F**** ok"
Howbout C**t? or P***k?
You are on a slippery slope, but I will abide by your ruling.
But think about the genocide issue, and the fact that Ls has libeled me.

Not only that but all of us who disagree with the US foreign policy have been libeled as well as traitors by your side.

[PaceAdvantage]

Like I said, it was a thread I had started, so I made sure it stayed on topic. Nothing was deleted from that thread simply because I disagreed with what was posted.

It was particularly egregious because atrocities committed by dictators WE/the US gov have and continue to prop up and support have been much worse than Chavez allegedly stifling the "free press".Was I making the point that Chavez is better/worse than other dictators around the world? No, I don't think that was my point at all....As far as dictators go, shutting down opposition television stations is way down the list of serious offenses. I simply found it interesting that these major celebrities would align themselves with someone who was shutting down a voice for the opposition.

But think about the genocide issue, and the fact that Ls has libeled me.

Not only that but all of us who disagree with the US foreign policy have been libeled as well as traitors by your side.Can you actually libel someone who is known only by the nickname "Hcap" I don't think that's legally possible. If you were using your real name, then perhaps you start to have a leg to stand on, but even then, I doubt you'd have a case.

Also, can you show me one post where someone actually called you a traitor because of your opposition to the Iraq war? I know I've never done this.

They may say your beliefs and posts help the enemy our troops are fighting, and I believe that is the case to a certain extent, but I don't recall anyone actually calling you a traitor to your country just because you vehemently disagree with everything this administration as done.