QUASI EXPERTS -----

[the_fat_man]

So, I'm watching the OTB show this morning and very much concurred with Cary Fotias, when he stated that TRACK BIASES are very much a subjective thing and very difficult to uncover.

Then, later, he goes on about needing La Presse for $5500 (pick 4). SHe was much the best horse going into the race. (Beyer and Serling thought so as well. )

Yo, Cary, SPEED BIAS turf sprinting at SAR the past few days (speed and against the outside move, more precisely. You might have noticed this, when horses repeatedly come up to the pacesetter in the stretch and FAIL to go by. :lol:

La Presse ran best in the race and is a definite bet back. But she was a bet against yesterday.

[DanG]

If you ever met Fotias you wouldn’t use the phrase “Quasi”. Brilliant guy who was an excellent currency trader for years on Wall Street in addition to an excellent handicapper. Not to mention a hell of a nice guy. :ThmbUp:

Note to Serling IMHO: Lose the sarcastic tone and expression when another seminar guest is speaking who you don’t agree with. Yes, I realize its part of his “charm”, but a little common decency wouldn’t hurt either. :rolleyes:

[kenwoodallpromos]

ESpecially difficult to uncover QUICKLY?

[Grits]

If you ever met Fotias you wouldn’t use the phrase “Quasi”. Brilliant guy who was an excellent currency trader for years on Wall Street in addition to an excellent handicapper. Not to mention a hell of a nice guy. :ThmbUp:

Note to Serling IMHO: Lose the sarcastic tone and expression when another seminar guest is speaking who you don’t agree with. Yes, I realize its part of his “charm”, but a little common decency wouldn’t hurt either. :rolleyes:

The couple of times that I caught Fotias on the Siro's Seminar--

I felt this was the most long-winded person I had ever listened to regarding anything to do with a horse race. With each race, he went on and on. He's too slow in making his points, bringing in too many factors and "ifs" with his figs.

One may be brilliant; yet still, coming up with a dissertation when an essay will suffice isn't always a plus in a program that is geared to move, encompassing 10 races and the opinions of two to three handicappers.

If he and Hank Goldberg were on any program at the same time--I'd go to sleep.

[DanG]

The couple of times that I caught Fotias on the Siro's Seminar--

I felt this was the most long-winded person I had ever listened to regarding anything to do with a horse race. With each race, he went on and on. He's too slow in making his points, bringing in too many factors and "ifs" with his figs.

One may be brilliant; yet still, coming up with a dissertation when an essay will suffice isn't always a plus in a program that is geared to move, encompassing 10 races and the opinions of two to three handicappers.

If he and Hank Goldberg were on any program at the same time--I'd go to sleep.
That excuses rudeness?

Look…I’ve met Cary, and happen to like him, so I have a dog in this fight. I sat through a seminar at Siro’s this year and listened to Little Andy call field’s garbage and individual horses bums, but he did it in a timely manner.

Now to be fair, the crowd overall loves Serling, so as often is the case I’m in the minority on this one. Sitting next to my daughter who worships horses and her first time at the Spa she is leaning over to me…”If he thinks the horses are “bums” why does he come here”?

Of course, I also love Harvey Pack who also has an NY ‘edge too many comments, but to my ears they come off funny and don’t attempt to cut…but, again…that’s MY ears.

True, Cary has a round about way of getting to the point. Jay Privman on the other hand is very to the point and yet if you saw that seminar, the same aforementioned vibe that rubs me the wrong way, but again…not the masses I assume.

PS-I: I grew up in Jersey and spent a tremendous amount of time in the city. Go to a ballgame and there are two types of NY hecklers. There is the type who is louder than anybody and yet most around them is laughing. Then there is the type who says things that border on personal and I find no humor in that what so ever.

PS-II: Yikes…:eek: Linking Cary and Hank Goldberg!!!...LOL :D

[NoDayJob]

That excuses rudeness?

Look…I’ve met Cary, and happen to like him, so I have a dog in this fight.

Da feds don't like dog fightin'! Just ask Michael Vick. :D

[Grits]

You surely note that my remarks spoke only of the time that Foitis takes in his remarks. I did not to mean to imply in any way that he is not qualified, or that he is not a fine human being. So please, don't misunderstand me in that regard. Truth be told, DETAIL is exactly what allowed this man such success on Wall Street.

Harvey Pack is a one of a kind--he's not replaceable--he's priceless. And you are quite correct he is never unkind. Not ever.

Some handicappers find it quite necessary, effective, and maybe even cute, to call HORSES AND JOCKEYS--that have cost them more than two nickels to rub together--names like idiot, garbage, bum, moneyburner, etc, the list of names goes on and on.

I can't say that I hear Daily Racing Form handicappers do a great deal of this and that goes for all--from Dave Grenig to Steven Crist.

The most obvious p*ss*ng match I witnessed was between Privman and Serling. After the break, the tone changed. It needed to. It was unfortunate and it took away from both men's skill.

The particular handicapper that you spoke of does not work for DRF. He freelances.

Rudeness becomes becomes no one, it's only purpose is that of showing one's lack of character.

I'm sorry if I did not come off clearly.

That excuses rudeness?

Look…I’ve met Cary, and happen to like him, so I have a dog in this fight. I sat through a seminar at Siro’s this year and listened to Little Andy call field’s garbage and individual horses bums, but he did it in a timely manner.

Now to be fair, the crowd overall loves Serling, so as often is the case I’m in the minority on this one. Sitting next to my daughter who worships horses and her first time at the Spa she is leaning over to me…”If he thinks the horses are “bums” why does he come here”?

Of course, I also love Harvey Pack who also has an NY ‘edge too many comments, but to my ears they come off funny and don’t attempt to cut…but, again…that’s MY ears.

True, Cary has a round about way of getting to the point. Jay Privman on the other hand is very to the point and yet if you saw that seminar, the same aforementioned vibe that rubs me the wrong way, but again…not the masses I assume.

PS-I: I grew up in Jersey and spent a tremendous amount of time in the city. Go to a ballgame and there are two types of NY hecklers. There is the type who is louder than anybody and yet most around them is laughing. Then there is the type who says things that border on personal and I find no humor in that what so ever.

PS-II: Yikes…:eek: Linking Cary and Hank Goldberg!!!...LOL :D

[DanG]

You surely note that my remarks spoke only of the time that Foitis takes in his remarks. I did not to mean to imply in any way that he is not qualified, or that he is not a fine human being. So please, don't misunderstand me in that regard. Truth be told, DETAIL is exactly what allowed this man such success on Wall Street.

Harvey Pack is a one of a kind--he's not replaceable--he's priceless. And you are quite correct he is never unkind. Not ever.

Some handicappers find it quite necessary, effective, and maybe even cute, to call HORSES AND JOCKEYS--that have cost them more than two nickels to rub together--names like idiot, garbage, bum, moneyburner, etc, the list of names goes on and on.

I can't say that I hear Daily Racing Form handicappers do a great deal of this and that goes for all--from Dave Grenig to Steven Crist.

The most obvious p*ss*ng match I witnessed was between Privman and Serling. After the break, the tone changed. It needed to. It was unfortunate and it took away from both men's skill.

The particular handicapper that you spoke of does not work for DRF. He freelances.

Rudeness becomes becomes no one, it's only purpose is that of showing one's lack of character.

I'm sorry if I did not come off clearly.
Point well taken Grits;

The feeling is mutual and in retrospect I regret singling out Andy in an attempt to defend someone I respect. It takes many different personalities to make up our game and I know mine doesn’t agree with all…just ask Fats and my X!!! :D

[the_fat_man]

In the meantime,

the only turf sprint of the day was won wire to wire

[the little guy]

There's a lot of entertaining stuff in this thread.....most notably from my favorite basher Dan G who is so hellbent on perverting anything I say or do that he pretty much hasn't taken any actual time to properly evaluate what is really going on.

I'm not sarcastic....I'm blunt. Disagreements make for good shows. Nothing said on stage is personal or ever taken that way. Specifically, Jay Privman and I are friends, and that entire seminar was done in the spirit of good fun, and your perception that somehow things changed after the break is just another one of your illusions.

Perhaps you have never argued different opinions on the races with friends. I have and it has resulted in a great deal of learning for me. If you don't think the public gets something out of disagreements about the races then we will have to agree to disagree.

On Cary Fotias.....I like Cary a lot. I look forward to the little time I see him every year and certainly enjoy doing the seminars with him. I would be shocked if he didn't have a similar opinion. The shows are supposed to be both informative and entertaining. Apparantly you and I have a great difference of opinion on what that constitutes. While you are entitled to whatever opinion you like, and love to express it here, you are in the significant minority on this issue.

I specifically, however, would like to address the following load of crap...


I sat through a seminar at Siro’s this year and listened to Little Andy call field’s garbage and individual horses bums, but he did it in a timely manner.






This didn't happen. Perhaps making this up, in your opinion, strengthens your points. It, however, does not. You don't like me, or my style, that's fine, but making things up to somehow solidify your position is pretty unfortunate.

[DanG]

There's a lot of entertaining stuff in this thread.....most notably from my favorite basher Dan G who is so hellbent on perverting anything I say or do that he pretty much hasn't taken any actual time to properly evaluate what is really going on.

I'm not sarcastic....I'm blunt. Disagreements make for good shows. Nothing said on stage is personal or ever taken that way. Specifically, Jay Privman and I are friends, and that entire seminar was done in the spirit of good fun, and your perception that somehow things changed after the break is just another one of your illusions.

Perhaps you have never argued different opinions on the races with friends. I have and it has resulted in a great deal of learning for me. If you don't think the public gets something out of disagreements about the races then we will have to agree to disagree.

On Cary Fotias.....I like Cary a lot. I look forward to the little time I see him every year and certainly enjoy doing the seminars with him. I would be shocked if he didn't have a similar opinion. The shows are supposed to be both informative and entertaining. Apparantly you and I have a great difference of opinion on what that constitutes. While you are entitled to whatever opinion you like, and love to express it here, you are in the significant minority on this issue.

I specifically, however, would like to address the following load of crap...

This didn't happen. Perhaps making this up, in your opinion, strengthens your points. It, however, does not. You don't like me, or my style, that's fine, but making things up to somehow solidify your position is pretty unfortunate.
With all due respect, the only ‘load of crap here is your denial. I’ll be in Saratoga again next year and you can deny it to my daughters face as well as my own. If I’m the first person in your life to bring up use of the terms “garbage, bums” in association with racehorses then we do indeed associate with very different people.

True; we won’t be exchanging cards over the holidays, but to say your “blunt” style is all in “fun” is certainly in the eye of the beholder…One man’s “blunt” is another man’s rude.

In all fairness…as I stated in the post, I am in the minority here. You are without doubt a popular figure on that show and others. Just as poker’s ratings increase when Phil Hellmuth whines, Siro’s seminar’s rise when you voice your “blunt opinions”.

Enjoy the rest of the meeting and best of luck to you and yours.

PS: Enjoyed your work and guests very much on the YouBet series. I hope that continues on a year round basis as handicapping on that level is in very short supply on the air. :ThmbUp:

[the little guy]

I'm not in denial Dan. If anyone is " in denial " it is you....as while I have used those terms in the past I have not done it this year.....and it hasn't been by accident.

I am honest in delivering my opinions of the quality of fields and specific horses. That is my job. The viewers deserve nothing less. You don't have to like it, just as nobody does, but as I take this very seriously I will always continue to describe things as I see them.

All the best to you as well.

[DanG]

I'm not in denial Dan. If anyone is " in denial " it is you....as while I have used those terms in the past I have not done it this year.....and it hasn't been by accident.

I am honest in delivering my opinions of the quality of fields and specific horses. That is my job. The viewers deserve nothing less. You don't have to like it, just as nobody does, but as I take this very seriously I will always continue to describe things as I see them.

All the best to you as well.
I do admit my memory is not what it used to be. My daughter however is 18yo and as sharp as humans get.

This conversation / recollection has really run its course.

Enjoy the seminar today. Seems the weather has broken and it’s a beautiful day to race and gamble.

[njcurveball]

True; we won’t be exchanging cards over the holidays, but to say your “blunt” style is all in “fun” is certainly in the eye of the beholder…One man’s “blunt” is another man’s rude.



This is very true Dan! When Larry Lederman was calling the races at ACRC, many people loved him. And at the same time, many people hated him as well.

I believe it is better to have half the people hate you and half the people like you than have no one even care you are alive.

I have gotten many Emails about PA from people who would not dare post here due to the salivating dogs that wait here looking for fights.

But rest assured Dan they all say good things about your informative posts and how much they learn from them.

You might be in the minority here, but in the grand scheme of things, you are probably in the majority!

[DanG]

This is very true Dan! When Larry Lederman was calling the races at ACRC, many people loved him. And at the same time, many people hated him as well.

I believe it is better to have half the people hate you and half the people like you than have no one even care you are alive.

I have gotten many Emails about PA from people who would not dare post here due to the salivating dogs that wait here looking for fights.

But rest assured Dan they all say good things about your informative posts and how much they learn from them.

You might be in the minority here, but in the grand scheme of things, you are probably in the majority!
Jim;

Thanks for the kind words, but in retrospect I regret getting involved in this thread to be honest. I don’t retract anything I said, but I would prefer it was said in person. I sometimes wish I had the makeup of people I greatly admire who have the ability to say nothing unless it’s positive or supportive.

You make a valid point; it’s far better to risk and fail than to never risk at all. Andy has the balls to go nation wide and state his opinions and I have nothing but respect for that. The “dunce cap” for example is just brilliant and shows both humor and humility that is sometimes lacking on our side of the fence.

True, our basic personalities don’t mesh and my flaw is I’m the guy in the crowd who tells the voice tress fan to cool it if I find it personally offensive. Again; often awkward in this forum and far more civilized over a drink at Siro’s. ;)

In closing; a favorite quote of mine that seems appropriate as you mentioned many avoid open dialogue for fear of confrontation;

Porthos: “I'd rather die covered in blood than an old man lying in my own piss.”

[classhandicapper]

I do admit my memory is not what it used to be. My daughter however is 18yo and as sharp as humans get.

This conversation / recollection has really run its course.

Enjoy the seminar today. Seems the weather has broken and it’s a beautiful day to race and gamble.

My guess is that you are both right.

TLG probably didn't use the specific words you suggested, but he probably made it clear what he thought about the quality of the horse(s) in question. It was probably easy to "think" he said XXXXX

This is one conversation that needs to be put to rest.

There are a lot of contributors to this board that I really look forward to reading because I know I might come across a nugget of info or an insight that will help me. The last thing I need is to waste time reading two of my favorite posters arguing. ;)

[Grits]

I believe it is better to have half the people hate you and half the people like you than have no one even care you are alive.

An excellent point, and one well taken. Especially, when we can be, at any given time, deemed worthy; and then, just as quickly--dismissed.

[njcurveball]

I hope you realize I am talking TV here, right? :p

[Grits]

I hope you realize I am talking TV here, right? :p

Certainly. Madonna always stated, "to be ignored is worse".

So, where is she, now that she's no longer atop the Billboard charts?

One can find her trekking across Africa adopting children. That's a good thing.

Still your point is a good one in many ways.

[toetoe]

You did NOT go Madonna in your little hominy, er, homily, did you ? :(

[cj]

I have to ask DanG, because I'm at a complete loss, what is a voice tress fan?

[DanG]

I have to ask DanG, because I'm at a complete loss, what is a voice tress fan?
Spell check couldn’t bail out my Jersey public education! :D

This guy comes to mind…

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/markcuban.jpg

[Overlay]

I have to ask DanG, because I'm at a complete loss, what is a voice tress fan?

Boisterous, perhaps?

[Robert Fischer]

so the turf is playing fast?


hahahahah

[DanG]

Boisterous, perhaps?
There you go…Thank you OL. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

I have gotten many Emails about PA from people who would not dare post here due to the salivating dogs that wait here looking for fights.

Wow. Really? Many? How come I never get emails like this?

You'd think people would be wanting to tell me this, since I can actually try and make changes if this is indeed reality.

You post saddens me a bit if it is indeed true.

[njcurveball]

You post saddens me a bit if it is indeed true.

VERY TRUE! In fact this board was one of the talking points at the recent Gold Coast tourney.

You do not have to take my word for it, go to a tournament and just bring up the board and ask if people read it. The answer a resounding YES!

They read it, there is a lot of good stuff on here!

Then ask do they post? OH NO! I do not want to get into petty arguments with the usual suspects is the most common answer.

[bigmack]

You do not have to take my word for it
I'll take your word for it. In fact, I'll take the multitude of words that you've given on the subject for it. It's OK if this camp doesn't exchange pleasantries at every turn of the page. That's life in the big city.

I know you're an HTR cat and pound for pound they're an affable bunch. Ironic in a way to continually enter into this camp and deride the nature of this beast. You're not actually on a campaign to alter this place for a bed of roses and niceties are you?

[njcurveball]

You're not actually on a campaign to alter this place for a bed of roses and niceties are you?

A tad more respect here would be a large improvement for all but the people who post on the web looking simply to argue with other people.

Different opinions are the biggest part of this game. And why we all come here.

We can disagree on something without attacking the other person.

[PaceAdvantage]

We can disagree on something without attacking the other person.

I wish people would point out via PM or email when they feel an "attack" is taking place. Perhaps there are times when I can't see the forest for the trees. I like to think I either boot those who attack on a consistent basis, OR, at the very least, point out to the "attacker" to cool it (especially if said person has contributed worthy posts in the past).

I have a feeling though that many people take "spirited argument" or "disagreement" as an "attack" when it clearly is not an attack....

[JustRalph]

are we talking about Off Topic? or Racing discussions?

I think it is rare that a racing discussion becomes a pissing match ...........now off topic is different beast.