View Full Version : Some thoughts regarding boycott/procott
Hello everyone, my name is Tom and I am an active member of DerbyTrail.com. First off, I would like to say thank you for all of your active thoughts and supports with the petition that you started. I, like many other horse players, have the same sentiments as many of you here. I want nothing more but to help with this 'cause' and I wanted to echo some thoughts that I have had regarding what the next move is.
1) Fail to plan, plan to fail - I always thought that this is complete BS and I learned this in college, a good lesson per say. My friends and I had the perfect party area at Southern Illinois. Plenty of room, plenty of bathrooms and plenty of areas to 'party' in away from everyone. Now if we came up with the idea to throw a kegger on a Saturday and it was already Wednesday, we would get minimal people and we would lose money (but not the hangover :)). The one party that we advertised a month in advance, we ended up going through 9 kegs and 300 jello shots in 3 HOURS. People were everywhere because word of mouth grew it. I think that it is very important in this situation that we plan this out 60-90 days in advance, get that word of mouth out and people to support it, and remind them on a weekly basis leading up to it, so the full effect of us as horse players can be felt
2) Advertising - Going to every message board that we know and getting it into people's hands will make the difference between a minor success and major success. While I haven't talked to him yet, someone like Steve Byk, host of At the Races and Beyond on Sirius, would possibly talk about it on his radio show. Once we move forward with this and have a plan, I can talk to him about it. I think uniting all in this situation instead of one or two message boards will have a much fuller and complete effect.
3) Procott vs Boycott - Now while I will support either situation, my thoughts on a procott are that we are still feeding these ADW's with a track like Albq so they are still getting there piece of the pie. While I understand that is hard for us degenerates and professionals to not gamble/invest for one day, if we make on a Thursday, when a major Tracknet and TVG track is running, we would 'hurt' them and open up there eyes. Right now, they could care less about this ordeal because their pockets are not hurting enough yet. But if they were to lose just ONE DAY of handle, they would wake up. I have heard up to 90% of handle is coming from these ADW's, that is a huge chunk of cash. Imagine if handle was down 50% on a day at Aqueduct or Santa Anita, the industry would be a buzz and people would be panicing. Sadly in this day in age, you sometimes have to hurt someone to get their attention.
I have recently quit my dead end job and can put 100% of my time into this as long as it is done right. If it is done right, I see nothing but success coming from it. You can contact me via PM or this thread and I will start actively becoming a part of the war room and other threads around here.
Again, thank you Pace Advantage and lets continue to move forward with this.
Scav (Tom)
BillW
08-22-2007, 10:29 AM
Welcome aboard Scav! Your thoughts and suggestions are surely welcome.
Bill
facorsig
08-22-2007, 12:12 PM
I think the probability to achieve a 50% reduction against a major pool is low, very low, but the probability to increase the handle of a small pool is a lot higher.
ceejay
08-22-2007, 12:55 PM
Thank you for your thought-out post, Tom. I agree with points 1 and 2, which are actually somewhat related.
Not sure about 3 but I'd take a Thursday off from work and bet into a designated pool. Even a Saturday could get noticed. 8/17 ALB did $85022 in handle. 300 people betting $150 each would raise that ~50%!
Welcome aboard!
DeanT
08-22-2007, 01:09 PM
I will play in that situation.
If a track raises its handle by 50% like that, it can make a headline or two (imo).
I agree that is has to be well publicized and everyone must have it on the radar. If someone in the press picked up the day that the playing was going to happen, I bet a whole lot of people who are not members here would bet even 10 or 20 bucks that day as a show of support.
prospector
08-22-2007, 01:13 PM
we need a name and outline our goals to get really good support from the public...a well laid out flyer requesting support for alb and no bets for woodbine would have to make sense to those who haven't a clue about what goes on...the track guys..
i just came back from placing a few bets at hoosier park ..the signal for arlington was pulled from them today..some of the regulars wanted to know why and no one knew what to tell them..except the old "we're working on it"
these guys are mad, but they don't know where to direct that anger..education should be part of the effort..
But if you do that through an ADW, they still get their cut. They get 5.5% of the revenue cut and dry. An ADW can care less what tracks you wager on, matter of fact, they would RATHER you wager through tracks like Albq because they might get a bigger cut.
Everything and I mean everything revolves around the player when it comes to these ADW. We essentially finance them 100% because make all their money and pay their bills based on handle that they collect.
Take away their food and they are going to get awful hungry and do what they have to do to make people happy.
I agree with Prospector that it needs to be planned out and carefully executed. I am going to talk to my DRF friend and ask them what they think from a media perspective which way he thinks would gain more publicity, because ultimately that is the goal.
DeanT
08-22-2007, 01:27 PM
Hi Scav,
Don't you think that baby steps are in order tho?
What if betting ALB worked? What if Finley or someone wrote a story on a grass roots movement raised handle by 50%. What if another date was publicized off that momentum and we all raised handle by 100% or 200%?
I think that would energize people to join something like a boycott later because people will say "wow, that worked, I'd like to be a part of that".
If you say you are going to do something and it does not work, you kill all momentum, imo, and what you want to accomplish long-term is dead.
I'm with CJ. Plan this on the deadest day where a handle jump is noticed. And make sure the day is well publcized to all of us so we know what to do, and have time to load an account.
Just my thoughts.
My only concern in doing this is that 1) You are not taking anything away from the ADW, which is the goal of this, they are the problem, it isn't the tracks that are the problem 2) You are asking NY/Cali/Midwest bettors to put their hard earned money on a low level track that they never follow.
I couldn't agree more about the babysteps, but it will take alot for me to put $200 into a track like Albq, when a track like Belmont is running. I understand the principle, but I am trying to think like a gambler. As a gambler, I think it will be easier for a gambler to leave the whole day alone, then it is to focus on a low level track.
I look forward to planning this, however way we do it, hopefully we can get some sort of plan together to move forward with this sometime on near the end of September
prospector
08-22-2007, 02:08 PM
i disagree that adw's are the major problem...i see any track that would sign an exclusive agreement, thus denying their signal to the whole base of racing and lining the pockets of one adw over the other adw's as the REAL problem..and there should be a penality imposed for such arrogance...
of course, we all could have different enemies as reasons for joining this movement..mine is to free the signals and level the playing field..the idea of having to bet with 3 different adws to handle all tracks is absurd..state laws are also on my list..as well as congress...i'm still pissed about losing pinnacle..
i can go quietly into the night and start playing sports..but why should i?
chickenhead
08-22-2007, 02:24 PM
I think a boycott should cover all the TVG exclusive tracks as well as CDI.
TVG makes the case that handle is up at TVG tracks, therefore their current setup is working.
Tracknet argues that income is up at tracknet tracks, therefore their current setup is working.
Seems to me that what we want as bettors is not amenable to either of those setups, therefore any boycott that would suite our needs would need to be on ALL TVG Exclusive tracks, and Tracknet tracks. The monies instead need to go to the independant tracks.
Don't get me started on the Pinny ordeal. Betonline.com has the same type of horse rebates, but have yet to trust them. I am going to bet some sports with them and hopefully I get positive and request a withdrawal and see how the process goes.
None of these tracks will sign another 'exculsivity' agreement again. I think that time is over and done with and honestly, I am pretty surprised that TVG hasn't shared their signal because if they lose NY when their contract is over, good bye TVG.
I am a strong believer that boycotting the WHOLE DAY from online wagering will do the trick. Go to the OTB, go to the track, take the day off....I agree with chickenhead that all TVG and Tracknet tracks. I am going to start scouting a day towards the end of September where both have a track going.
These ADW's should compete based on customer service, loyalty and preferred wagering layout. They SHOULD NOT be competing with what tracks they offer. I can go three miles to the Arlington Park OTB and play all tracks at one time, or I can sit in my basement and play all tracks, with 10 windows up on my computer and chaos everywhere. I choose the OTB until Youbet gets everything back.
mhrussell
08-22-2007, 03:27 PM
:ThmbUp: I think all this is great and support the various ideas presented. Many have merit and should be pursued. I think along the lines of others that a 'procott' would be more visible and utimately effective especially if smaller tracks could be targeted.
Myself, I would like to see an organized 'procot' of Ellis Park if only to support the 4% takeout P4. I realize that since Ellis is part of the 'enemy' in some respects, maybe we just target only the late P4 wager.. and no other bet.
I'm stuck because YouBet does not carry Ellis but I loved (and cashed big!) on Claiming Crown day (Youbet had Ellis that day..) and certainly want to support that 4% takeout P4 wager.
Ellis closes next week or the week after, so timing is bad, but that would be a great situation, we should have thought of that earlier but it would have been a perfect situation
Welcome, Scav, nice to have you with us.
Can never have too many Tom's on a board!:lol:
JustRalph
08-22-2007, 04:00 PM
there is much PMing going on behind the scenes. I would declare a slow down at this point..........many subjects are coming up. Some may involve legal issues..............
PaceAdvantage has yet to chime in. This is his board.
I love the idea of gaining other participants from some of the other boards. This has momentum............slow and easy and think this through.
Scav. Welcome.............!
I like a bunch of the ideas, but only after much thought out planning and investigation.
betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 04:20 PM
You asked for it-you got it. The 1st procott will occur this Saturday 8-25-07. This is an election and we are voting with our dollars. Get your DRF or download your data and vote early and often. We need to tilt the pools.
.
"All they need to know is there is $$$$ behind these names that can impact their bottom lines"
.
Who knows-you might even win :)
chickenhead
08-22-2007, 05:12 PM
I'll be traveling out of town this weekend and won't be able to join in. I hope you get a great turnout -- though I have to believe a bigger more meaningful bang could be made with a little more time and planning.
Indulto
08-22-2007, 05:21 PM
... I am a strong believer that boycotting the WHOLE DAY from online wagering will do the trick. Go to the OTB, go to the track, take the day off....I agree with chickenhead that all TVG and Tracknet tracks. I am going to start scouting a day towards the end of September where both have a track going.
These ADW's should compete based on customer service, loyalty and preferred wagering layout. They SHOULD NOT be competing with what tracks they offer. ...Welcome to the board, Scav. Your insights are both timely and appreciated.
I think you nailed it in your bolded suggestion above. Getting players to not bet is virtually impossible, but maybe their action can be temporarily diverted in a good cause. I think asking people to bet on something other than what they're accustomed to is more like asking for a donation rather than support for collective benefit. Speaking of which, perhaps the benefitting horsemen would help promote the idea.
I'd hate to see DerbyTrail risk any sponsorship. His show is too valuable a fan resource. I for one would not be upset if he were unable to help communicate the action.
Are you by any chance the same Scav????? that posted the TG-Rag Figure Study results on the TG board?
ceejay
08-22-2007, 06:17 PM
You asked for it-you got it. The 1st procott will occur this Saturday 8-25-07. This is an election and we are voting with our dollars. Get your DRF or download your data and vote early and often. We need to tilt the pools.
.
"All they need to know is there is $$$$ behind these names that can impact their bottom lines"
.
Who knows-you might even win :)
I think this date is way too early to publicize it appropriately.
Indulto
08-22-2007, 06:38 PM
I think this date is way too early to publicize it appropriately.Not if you knew the B-H article was coming. That's a lot of exposure which could generate even more. Sure hope bonc is right about those whales participating.
Good luck guys. Wish I could join you at ALB.
betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 06:42 PM
I think this date is way too early to publicize it appropriately.
Your right it's too early, but it needs to be done, Mortgage your house-fund your accounts and have fun. :)
rrpic6
08-22-2007, 06:55 PM
I think this date is way too early to publicize it appropriately.
That's why a well organized pattern of wagering for selected races would be noticed immediately. My suggestion is to get about 50 people on board to wager $200. Target the late Daily Double as well as the Superfecta in each of those two races. The handle for the DD was $825 and the two Supers, about $3200 and $3800 the other day at ALB. Ten Thousand dollares bet into these two races would add about 125% into that pool! Baby steps, but could be effective.
RR
Welcome to the board, Scav. Your insights are both timely and appreciated.
I think you nailed it in your bolded suggestion above. Getting players to not bet is virtually impossible, but maybe their action can be temporarily diverted in a good cause. I think asking people to bet on something other than what they're accustomed to is more like asking for a donation rather than support for collective benefit. Speaking of which, perhaps the benefitting horsemen would help promote the idea.
I'd hate to see DerbyTrail risk any sponsorship. His show is too valuable a fan resource. I for one would not be upset if he were unable to help communicate the action.
Are you by any chance the same Scav????? that posted the TG-Rag Figure Study results on the TG board?
Yes this is.
I have yet to talk to Steve (Kasept-Derby Trail) about it but I will obviously run anything by him before hand. He has had many people on the show that have spoken about this very issue.
How is everything in California? PM me when you get a chance.
Premier Turf Club
08-22-2007, 07:07 PM
We will give our customers an extra 2% on WPS and 3% on exotics on the Saturday ALB card in addition to our usual rewards rates.
For those interested in opening new accounts, we will reduce the minimum deposit to $100 (if that's still too much please PM me and we'll work something out) and will eliminate any fees on credit/debit card deposits.
ceejay
08-22-2007, 07:11 PM
eliminate any fees on credit/debit card deposits.
For all accounts or just new ones?
Well, that bloodhorse article has it right, I REALLY hope it has some success. That being said, I think once it goes well, we can plan the actual BOYCOTT.
My concern is that these ADW's will not get hit negatively with the procott because they are still getting their %, regardless of what track you bet with. SO if possible with this procott, DO NOT WAGER WITH Xpressbet/TwinSpires/Youbet/TVG/Winticket/Bris, this way they get NOTHING.
ONWARD AND UPWARD
rrpic6
08-22-2007, 07:33 PM
Well, that bloodhorse article has it right, I REALLY hope it has some success. That being said, I think once it goes well, we can plan the actual BOYCOTT.
My concern is that these ADW's will not get hit negatively with the procott because they are still getting their %, regardless of what track you bet with. SO if possible with this procott, DO NOT WAGER WITH Xpressbet/TwinSpires/Youbet/TVG/Winticket/Bris, this way they get NOTHING.
ONWARD AND UPWARD
Winticket and its parent, BRIS/AmericaTab are not the problem. CDI purchased them, possibly when they realized twinspires would be a disaster. Mike Weiss and Charlie Ruma from Winticket are very Horseplayer friendly. I'm hoping to procott Beulah when they open back up later this year.
RR
Americatab is run by Tracknet now essentially, if you bet on Winticket at those tracks, you are feeding Tracknet, yes or no?
cj's dad
08-22-2007, 07:44 PM
I think this date is way too early to publicize it appropriately.
This venture, and I think it is a good one, should be as publicized as the jockey's petition which I think did well.
Sept.29 is Jockey Club Gold Cup day and can you imagine the effect and the attention a boycott of Belmont and a procott of a designated track running at the same time would generate?
Let's pick a date !!:cool:
rrpic6
08-22-2007, 07:52 PM
Americatab is run by Tracknet now essentially, if you bet on Winticket at those tracks, you are feeding Tracknet, yes or no?
As of now...the staff at Winticket/Bris/AmericaTab remain intact. CDI does own them but Evans would be a fool to dismantle these staffs and allow the novices that put together twinspires.com to takeover. Its hard to predict but, If Magna goes bankrupt, he would be the one to start throwing many top-notch employees overboard. If BRIS discontinues its policy of free PP's when betting on those tracks, then you know Evans has started the annihilation of a solid foundation.
RR
betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 07:54 PM
I'm down for ALB this Saturday and any future dates :)
Premier Turf Club
08-22-2007, 08:02 PM
For all accounts or just new ones?
Ceejay I was planning on just new accounts put we can do it for all accounts this month.
I don't make a nickle off that deal, in fact I lose money. The credit card company charges me between 4.50-5% for the transaction. We pass on 3.75%. It's really expensive to do gaming cc processing. Nobody wants the business. As far as ACH goes, we have tried (and tried and tried). The few providers we have found wanted to charge a lot for the service because we have less than one year in business. I found some other funding sources, (I think e-wallet was one) but for every person that recommended one of them, I had one that had problems getting their money out. It's tough all over. We had one customer tell us it takes 3 weeks to get a wire out of ehorse.
Let's see how it goes this month and we can talk about waiving it or reducing it even further in the future. :)
In my honest opinion, I just sat back and looked and what is moving forward right now. Fact is that I think this 'procott' does little. Sure we can bet Albq and put 100% more into their pools, but what does that show ADW's. Especially on Saturday, which is Travers Day, people are not going to not bet Saratoga.
Fact is that for Tracknet/TVG to play nice, we need to hurt them, and you hurt these companies by not using their services, AT ALL. You bet them through your OTB or on-Track but not through an ADW.
betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 08:30 PM
Scav-this Saturday is not about boycotting or hurting anyone-Bet the Travers and anything else you'd customarily bet-but in the interest of the sport, placing some bets on ALB is the right thing to do. Also with the additional 2-3% PTC rebates betting on ALB is the smart thing to do. :)
prospector
08-22-2007, 08:34 PM
Scav-this Saturday is not about boycotting or hurting anyone-Bet the Travers and anything else you'd customarily bet-but in the interest of the sport, placing some bets on ALB is the right thing to do. Also with the additional 2-3% PTC rebates betting on ALB is the smart thing to do. :)
my choice...
run down to hoosier park spend gas, time and bet saratoga....or...stay home, bet alb and get a rebate..
think i'll stay home..not a hard choice for me..
I don't doubt that, but what gets accomplished by betting Albq on Saturday? What does that 'show' the industry?
I just hope you have this bloodhorse contact for when the actual boycott happens, because taking money from these ADW's, is the only way to get their attention IMO.
Indulto
08-22-2007, 09:20 PM
I don't doubt that, but what gets accomplished by betting Albq on Saturday? What does that 'show' the industry?
I just hope you have this bloodhorse contact for when the actual boycott happens, because taking money from these ADW's, is the only way to get their attention IMO.The problem is that now that the B-H has announced the intended action, if no noticeable difference results at ALB, the movement will lose momentum. It could be that bonc and his supporters are gambling they can make something happen while they still have the limelight from the Round Table exposure, or maybe this is a clever move on the part of those favoring the status quo to create an opportunity to trivialize the movement due to unpreparedness. Anybody want to make a line? ;)
The problem is that now that the B-H has announced the intended action, if no noticeable difference results at ALB, the movement will lose momentum. It could be that bonc and his supporters are gambling they can make something happen while they still have the limelight from the Round Table exposure, or maybe this is a clever move on the part of those favoring the status quo to create an opportunity to trivialize the movement due to unpreparedness. Anybody want to make a line? ;)
I couldn't agree more. Lets just hope that these boys grow tremendously AND they cover it via BH, and the next possible move of a boycott around the end of September
Kelso
08-23-2007, 12:05 AM
but what gets accomplished by betting Albq on Saturday? What does that 'show' the industry?
If nothing else, this is a good way to get our feet wet. Even if it doesn't hurt anybody (and I'm all for puttin' a hurt on the dinosaurs running this industry), it does give us a crucial first step on the road to effective organization.
And who knows what track might want to earn the next buycott by throwing their resources in with us?
At the same time, browbeating the ALB buycott doesn't help us at all.
NoCal Boy
08-23-2007, 12:24 AM
I personally think going through ALB serves no purpose. It would be far better to go through a track that has open access to all ADW's like Louisiana Downs or similar that also have horsemen support. The Louisiana horsemen are on record as wanting open access. Get horsemen involved and then you have something. ALB serves no purpose at all.
Kelso
08-23-2007, 12:44 AM
I personally think going through ALB serves no purpose. It would be far better to go through a track that has open access to all ADW's like Louisiana Downs or similar that also have horsemen support. The Louisiana horsemen are on record as wanting open access. Get horsemen involved and then you have something. ALB serves no purpose at all.
I suggest we ALL do all we can to make the ALB buycott successful. That will help assure that addtional buycotts, directed at other tracks ... such as LAD ... for additonal objectives, will be even more successful.
A small start with a small track is a good idea. Let's all just do it, so that this one won't be the last one.
NoCal Boy
08-23-2007, 12:51 AM
Small problem for California players is ALB is not available on ADW's and neither is PTC an option. Oh well.
turfnsport
08-23-2007, 12:55 AM
I don't doubt that, but what gets accomplished by betting Albq on Saturday? What does that 'show' the industry?
.
If this is successful it will show the track execs that horseplayers CAN unite for a cause....THAT is much more important that what ADW you use to bet ALB this Saturday. If this group unites and grows, there will likely not be a need for a boycott down the road.
A properly run "procott" can get the attention of the "braintrust." Probably quicker than a boycott.
I do think a "procott" would have worked better at a track like MNR, which is a night track generally shown on both networks and more players are more familiar with (I would think players may wager more, I know I would).
I would have used a two day "procott." Have a scheduled day, then a day to send out press releases presenting the results, then a second one at the same track, which hopefully would increase momentum and leave no doubt that the horseplayers have united and track execs can't say it was a fluke.
I also think an avatar with something like "Horseplayers United" is more suitable than picking a ADW you are not fond of.
MikeD
alydar
08-23-2007, 02:56 AM
Many good points raised here in this discussion. I do beleive it is important to maintain momentum, that has to be coupled with thoughtful and careful steps. I urge everyone to contact your friends and neighbors to play ALB this Saturday. Users that post on other boards should make sure that as many people know as possible.
That being said, I do think that coordination, consistency, and a clear and simple message is paramount to maintaining momentum and keeping the train on the tracks.
From my perspective chickenhead has nailed the issue. Freedom of choice for the players. Any organization that is preventing this is part of the problem.
kenwoodallpromos
08-23-2007, 08:22 AM
What race and bet type Saturday?
betovernetcapper
08-23-2007, 08:35 AM
For this Saturday's procott their is no betting structure-bet as much as you can-have fun and win some money :)
I also think an avatar with something like "Horseplayers United" is more suitable than picking a ADW you are not fond of.
MikeD
It's not an issue of who we are not "fond" of. It's a question of which companies are our enemy. The result is that money is kept out of our pockets as the effective takeouts remain 25% vs. 11%. Until they come to realize that horseplayers need a low takeout to stay in the game, they need to be punished.
Horseplayers have been Neville Chamberlains for too long. It's time that all of us started acting like Winston Churchills and sticking up for our own interests. Changing our avatars to show solidarity is the least everyone can do.
prospector
08-23-2007, 09:44 AM
Small problem for California players is ALB is not available on ADW's and neither is PTC an option. Oh well.
maybe you guys could pick a track NOT to play saturday...like woodbine or a tracknet track..
DeanT
08-23-2007, 10:12 AM
Small problem for California players is ALB is not available on ADW's and neither is PTC an option. Oh well.
Bad, but good for the message, imo.
"We raised handle by $100K, but it would have been much higher if CA players could have played ALB through their ADW"
I think that is a wonderful message: In 2007 racing, we can't even get a "pro"cott 100% right eventho we want to be a customer. If that doesn't say something about the state of the business, I do not know what does.
Robert Fischer
08-23-2007, 11:54 AM
Organizing as a means of negotiating a better situation is powerful.
There is a thin line when involving products of interest in a movement.
Concentrate your focus at its strongest point to gain more with less.
A $20 contribution per player on one specified race and wager type can show a direct cause-effect relationship. Focus, Organization, Participation.
The movement sustains and gains momentum.
Let it be clear, I am available for consultation at a price.
betovernetcapper
08-23-2007, 12:22 PM
Let it be clear, I am available for consultation at a price.
priceless post :lol: :lol:
Robert Fischer
08-23-2007, 02:48 PM
priceless post :lol: :lol:
Thanks Richard. The direct approach! Very cool to see you in Bloodhorse.
:ThmbUp:I am on board with Albuquerque and will be making a few wagers Saturday. Cashing a few tickets... With special attention to 6th Race(3yo mdn 6.5 furlongs), and Race8 @ 1 1/16th.
In the 8th Race JUNIOR PRADO could relish the distance, and be the type of horse to build an exotic wager around. 1st race over the Alb track and draws a top jockey for some solid connections.
Robert Fischer
08-25-2007, 07:37 PM
all right, JUNIOR PRADO gets it done in the 8th.
Next official procott date , send me a pm, we could have possibly had a minus pool here in the show pool AND all made 5 on the dollar.
I have a good feeling about today, I think we sent a message and had some participation.
betovernetcapper
08-25-2007, 07:45 PM
Fisher I was wishing I knew someone in UK to see if Ladbrooks would offer me any kind of odds on the over under $70000 :)
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