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betovernetcapper
08-19-2007, 05:55 PM
Jockey Club president Allen Marzelli today called for urgent action and read from a letter sent by The Pace Advantage Board with more than 400 signatures and reported by Bloodhorse.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40315

Guys this is good but it's only a start. Please join me tomorrow night in the War Room to discuss the boycott.

Tom
08-19-2007, 08:08 PM
What time?

betovernetcapper
08-19-2007, 08:22 PM
Post time 1st at MNR?

foregoforever
08-19-2007, 08:57 PM
Lot of interesting stuff in the article, but this is what got me sputtering ...

Jockey Club president Alan Marzelli ... used Equibase, the partnership of The Jockey Club and Thoroughbred Racing Associations, as an example of how stakeholders can work toward a common goal.

If Equibase is considered a success story, we're all screwed.

PaceAdvantage
08-20-2007, 12:32 AM
Guys, the petition was a complete success in a SMALL amount of time! Congrats on getting the highest levels of the sport to acknowledge our concerns! That was the goal of the petition. I doubt we could have hoped for more given the time constraints involved.

In less than 1 week, we've had multiple articles written about our efforts and our letter was read to the assembled members of the JC by their President & COO.

Unfortunately, I will be travelling Monday evening, so I won't be able to attend the War Room meeting. I do LOVE the idea of targeting a small track/pool to bet INTO (as opposed to a boycott at this time). This will be seen as a POSITIVE action that will turn some heads, as opposed to the negative overtone of a boycott. I'm not saying that boycotts should be taken off the table, only that they shouldn't necessarily be the next step.

chickenhead
08-20-2007, 12:45 AM
amen, lets have a PROCOTT. We need to reward a friend, somewhere.

NoCal Boy
08-20-2007, 01:07 AM
The Louisiana HBPA seems to be very vocal and proactive on the ADW side advocating open access and non-exclusivity. Perhaps Louisiana Downs would be a good choice to bet INTO as I believe all ADW's take the track. Evangeline is a TVG exclusive track so that does not work.

Any thoughts?

Topcat
08-20-2007, 01:09 AM
nice job to get any attention or mention at all.

betovernetcapper
08-20-2007, 01:41 AM
Yeah-PTC also carries LAD :)

prospector
08-20-2007, 02:29 AM
Yeah-PTC also carries LAD :)

i firmly believe it should be a PTC track...this all started with woodbine's game with PTC...
Nocal boy..i bet evangeline with PTC..:jump:

Rook
08-20-2007, 08:33 AM
i firmly believe it should be a PTC track...this all started with woodbine's game with PTC...


I absolutely agree. We should give a huge boost to a tiny PTC track like Assiniboia Downs or Northlands who are in favour of openess and rebates while at the same time completely boycotting Woodbine until they issue an apology to PTC and end their collusive anti-horseplayer practices.

stu
08-20-2007, 08:47 AM
i firmly believe it should be a PTC track


If you are going to 'procott' please consider Albuquerque on Wednesday. As racing secretrary, I am proud of the 101 horses that I have in on a 10-race card. The increased handle from the 'procott' will help this paceadvantage contributor.


shameless,
stu

speedking
08-20-2007, 08:47 AM
Excellent job so far by all those who have put this together on such short notice and thanks to all those who have contributed.

The idea of promoting and supporting 1 fan friendly track is a novel idea and deserves consideration, but I also like the concept of boycotting 1 track (Woodbine?) in conjunction with this approach.

speedking

Rook
08-20-2007, 09:04 AM
If you are going to 'procott' please consider Albuquerque on Wednesday. As racing secretrary, I am proud of the 101 horses that I have in on a 10-race card. The increased handle from the 'procott' will help this paceadvantage contributor.


I would love to give a hand to ALB. For the first time in my I bet on your track this week. One thing that needs to be fixed is that 10 cent ALB supers are currently unavailable through PTC and with only $1,800 pools, a $1 minimum doesn't encourage much action.

ceejay
08-20-2007, 10:36 AM
I do LOVE the idea of targeting a small track/pool to bet INTO (as opposed to a boycott at this time). This will be seen as a POSITIVE action that will turn some heads, as opposed to the negative overtone of a boycott. I'm not saying that boycotts should be taken off the table, only that they shouldn't necessarily be the next step.
I agree. You get more flies with honey than vinegar!

Premier Turf Club
08-20-2007, 10:39 AM
I would love to give a hand to ALB. For the first time in my I bet on your track this week. One thing that needs to be fixed is that 10 cent ALB supers are currently unavailable through PTC and with only $1,800 pools, a $1 minimum doesn't encourage much action.

Rook,

They should/will be. I didn't know;that's an Amtote pool definition I will have fixed.

Ian

boomman
08-20-2007, 10:42 AM
Guys, the petition was a complete success in a SMALL amount of time! Congrats on getting the highest levels of the sport to acknowledge our concerns! That was the goal of the petition. I doubt we could have hoped for more given the time constraints involved.

In less than 1 week, we've had multiple articles written about our efforts and our letter was read to the assembled members of the JC by their President & COO.

Unfortunately, I will be travelling Monday evening, so I won't be able to attend the War Room meeting. I do LOVE the idea of targeting a small track/pool to bet INTO (as opposed to a boycott at this time). This will be seen as a POSITIVE action that will turn some heads, as opposed to the negative overtone of a boycott. I'm not saying that boycotts should be taken off the table, only that they shouldn't necessarily be the next step.

Mike: Congratulations to you on the cover letter and to betovernet for getting the jockey club to pay attention to our concerns. I still am skeptical about anything doing us a LOT of good that Bob Evans was involved with, but hopefully he will be exposed soon for his constant ineptness. As for the procott (even though I won't be available on Wednesday) I agree that positive action is the way to go! I do not think boycotting as a group is in our best interests (especially since I've been in the business 30 years and don't feel comfortable boycotting or being associated with that type of movement), but that's not to say that quietly shutting our wallets when it comes to Woodbine as a group isn't a good thing. I can certainly assure everyone on this forum that I will never wager one dime on Woodbine again, (as what they did to Ian was despicable) and that I haven't wagered a dollar (even though I'm an everyday player) on CDSN or Magna since the tracknet impasse...........

Continued momentum!:ThmbUp:

Boomer

Rook
08-20-2007, 10:43 AM
Rook,

They should/will be. I didn't know;that's an Amtote pool definition I will have fixed.

Ian

Thanks Ian. While you are talking to them about this, it would also be great if you could get the minimum supers for all of the Canadian tracks set at 20 cents instead of the current $1. This is a competitive advantage that WEG should not have over your company.

Premier Turf Club
08-20-2007, 10:52 AM
Thanks Ian. While you are talking to them about this, it would also be great if you could get the minimum supers for all of the Canadian tracks set at 20 cents instead of the current $1. This is a competitive advantage that WEG should not have over your company.

Rook, I will check but if I recall we asked Amtote about the 20 cent supers and was told they are only available in Canada. I believe it was a CPMA rule but I will ask again.

Rook
08-20-2007, 11:12 AM
Rook, I will check but if I recall we asked Amtote about the 20 cent supers and was told they are only available in Canada. I believe it was a CPMA rule but I will ask again.

Unless you hear it directly from CPMA, don't take anybody's word on it: You know how honest Woodbine is in talking about legalities and Amtote might be under that impression after discussions with them. If it is a CPMA rule, then ask them to get it changed because it obviously makes no sense.

rrbauer
08-20-2007, 11:15 AM
What is positive about betting a track with high levels of takeout? Especially a circuit that you don't know anything about?

If you think the suits at the JC and racetracks in general are going to embrace horseplayers and include them in the track owners/horse owners/regulation makers "partnership" because horseplayers are "nice" to them, then :lol: :lol: :lol: is what they will be doing.

"Nice" doesn't work with those people. Pinching their pocketbooks does. I'm done betting until Keeneland opens in October. If PTC carries them I'll open an account with them....if not then I have two other accounts that I can bet Keeneland with (when I'm not at the track). Keeneland has earned my business by reducing takeout and employing new technology at their racing plant while maintaining high levels of customer service and keeping tradition a part of their product.

Want to do something postive? Save your money and bet it at Keeneland.

betovernetcapper
08-20-2007, 11:20 AM
I personally been engaged in a TrackNet boycott since May. It's become ordinary. I wouldn't consider betting at AP or CD anymore than I'd consider using gasoline as toothpaste. But that's just me.
.
There are a lot of things we can do procott-boycott-pass out flyer's on Breeders Cup day in front of Toco Bells (YUM! BRANDS) that inform people of the dangers of eating tainted meat. It's all good. I suggest we explore all options that don't involve Federal prison time.
.
If any-ones free tonight drop by the war room at around MNR 1st race post time to begin a game plan. :)

Rook
08-20-2007, 11:30 AM
What is positive about betting a track with high levels of takeout? Especially a circuit that you don't know anything about?....

Want to do something postive? Save your money and bet it at Keeneland.

I agree that high takeout tracks without rebate must be avoided but if these tracks are willing to rebate the player 12 to 14%, then the effective takeout rate becomes around 12% and the game becomes beatable.

One of the many reasons Woodbine is on top of my boycott list is because these slime have a 28.3% rate for tris and then deny even a 1% rebate to a huge chunk of their customers.

betovernetcapper
08-20-2007, 11:39 AM
Just checked the rates and if you can bet ALB with PTC your getting a much better deal than KEE.

DanG
08-20-2007, 12:31 PM
Regardless of the outcome, this is such an encouraging sign to me;

Thanks to Mike [PA], Ian [PTC], Richard [Betovernetcapper] and many other articulate members as the player is learning we may actually have a voice. Let’s try and keep in mind how many incremental changes we have seen this year alone.



Premier Turf Club
Players organizing for a common cause.
Take out being openly discussed by a few in track management.
The JC voting to ban steroids in race horses.
Sure, there seem to be two equally frustrating moments for every step forward, but a real round of applause for those giving their time on behalf of all of us!!! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

(Please forgive me for leaving out the many who are helping and / or miss-identifying anyone. Sometimes I think I have too many horses’ names in my head and I struggle with the internet handles.) :eek:

cj
08-20-2007, 12:38 PM
Want to do something postive? Save your money and bet it at Keeneland.

I'll still bet Keeneland, if they fix that ridiculous surface they installed. They went from one extreme to the other, and both suck.

kenwoodallpromos
08-20-2007, 12:40 PM
At the same round table, research of fans and horsemen reaction revealed the following, what I believe is a related issue:
"a survey revealed that of 1,250 racing fans, one-third said Thoroughbred racing has “serious integrity issues,” with alleged use of illegal medication first and foremost....
“To be quite candid, the stewards of The Jockey Club think it’s a disgrace that numerous horses in our sport’s most prominent and highly visible races are routinely trained by people who have repeated medication violations,” Phipps said....
Phipps said all industry stakeholders must cooperate.
Horsemen's representatives in attendance at the Round Table acknowledged the perception of cheating in the industry but questioned whether it's rampant."
____________
1/3 of "core bettors" who spend $1 billion in takeout think overall racing is full of cheaters, but the horsemen (owner) do not care until it is what THEY consider "RAMPANT".
With a Dubai winner DQ'ed, drug holding stalls at many stakes races, trainers convicted of felony heroin driving and cars searched for snake venom, the #1 country recording artist's horse dq'ed for milkshaking, at what point does the industry start looking at 10 years in a row of lower on-track betting and no increase in betting off-track since 2003 and start figuring out the better get their act together?
The good news is that with notice taken of the PA petition and acknowledgement of bettors being PO'ed, now is a great time to for the bettor to start pushing the industry to improve in critical areas such as:
Lack of standardization of ADW and takeout rates;
Lack of standardization and quality info from finish cameras, trackus, and chart callers (Equibase);
Lack of standardization of rules and punishments;
Lack of standardization for decent pay and disability $$$ for jockeys;
Pressure on claiming horses due to drugs and overwork;
IMHO racing needs healthy jockeys and horses and tightening of rules and better standardization for reporting of racing performance and for reduction of portions kept of betting monies and breakage.

Good4Now
08-20-2007, 12:45 PM
Who is aligned with who?

What are each seeking to gain by aligning the way they do?

What is their frame of reference ?

What is their time frame?

Congratulations to those who got the PLAYERS recognition!

I put this out because I do not KNOW. I am under the impression that the Thoroughbred Owners of California has a position of "player representative" on one of their comitees. Can we contact them?

Are there other folks we should contact OR invite them to join our discussion?

ceejay
08-20-2007, 01:29 PM
One point I'll make-- I don't know if I'll make the war room, we should be sure to schedule enough lead time to appropriately publicize the next move.

We should probably form some kind of steering comittee also.

betovernetcapper
08-20-2007, 01:32 PM
One point I'll make-- I don't know if I'll make the war room, we should be sure to schedule enough lead time to appropriately publisize the next move.

We should probably form some kind of steering comittee also.

YES

stuball
08-20-2007, 02:09 PM
Maybe we should schedule several of these meetings in the war room for
those of us that can't make it tonite.....I will be there......

Stuball :jump:

JustRalph
08-20-2007, 02:31 PM
I'll still bet Keeneland, if they fix that ridiculous surface they installed. They went from one extreme to the other, and both suck.


finally coming around to my thinking on Keeneland...........I love it! :lol:

DJofSD
08-20-2007, 02:51 PM
I put this out because I do not KNOW. I am under the impression that the Thoroughbred Owners of California has a position of "player representative" on one of their comitees. Can we contact them?

They had a meeting on track at DMR on Saturday. I didn't know about it in advance. I wish I had. I tried to gain access to the meeting thinking that I could at least talk to some one in the organization but it was in a restricted access area that I couldn't get to. Oh well, not quite able to seize the opportunity.

And, as I also posted in the other thread, I spoke very briefly to Ken Rudolph of TVG and Kenny Mayne of ESPN. Basically a simple statement that the petition was going to be presented to the Jockey Club and there is a growing unrest pertaining to ADW. Ken seemed sincerely interested but Kenny was pressed for time (prior to going on air live). Hopefully, they'll make the connection between what one guy talked to them about and the news note in Bloodhorse online. (I bet you if I had handed them a $2 double for DMR race 7 & 8, 6 to the 5, they'd remember!)

Any one getting a chance to speak to the on air personalities, do so. Promote the idea players are upset but do it politely -- there's no need to pull a Jim Cramer on these guys. We want them to be sympathetic and at some point get it mentioned on air. We, on this and other boards, are very likely the minority. We'll do better if we can at least get the casual punter aware. Then, even though they aren't concerned about betting multiple tracks over the internet, they'll likely lend support.

ArlJim78
08-20-2007, 05:10 PM
I personally been engaged in a TrackNet boycott since May. It's become ordinary. I wouldn't consider betting at AP or CD anymore than I'd consider using gasoline as toothpaste. But that's just me.
.
There are a lot of things we can do procott-boycott-pass out flyer's on Breeders Cup day in front of Toco Bells (YUM! BRANDS) that inform people of the dangers of eating tainted meat. It's all good. I suggest we explore all options that don't involve Federal prison time.
.
If any-ones free tonight drop by the war room at around MNR 1st race post time to begin a game plan. :)
Its me too, i've been doing the same thing since May.
I wonder how many people like us have been taking these independent actions, and what the result might be on the bottom line.

kenwoodallpromos
08-21-2007, 07:20 AM
http://www.tra-online.com/tra-l.html
The TRA (Thoroughbred Racing Association) helps run Equibase, runs HBPA, and works to standardize the industry. The above link is to join their mailing list, which I did years ago. The TRA members are many tracks, and the list gets much input from tracks. Joining the list as well as checking on and communicating with the Jockey Club and Bloodhorse.com are great ways to keep up with the racing business and patronizing the people who are most responsive and do they most to benefit all sectors of racing as well as the jockeys, horses, and backside workers.
I hope everyone who signed the petition joins this list and also contacts the Jockey Club to thank them.

OTM Al
08-21-2007, 09:18 AM
We got mentioned in Wednesday's DRF. Last para, but it was noted

http://www.drf.com/news/article/87764.html

betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 04:38 PM
OTM AL-Wondered when DRF would take notice.
.
The first procott will occur this Sat 8-25-07 and the chosen track is ALB. This is an election and we are voting with our dollars, so buy your DRF-download your data and vote early and often. It's critical that we tilt this handle.

And you could win some money too. :)

DJofSD
08-22-2007, 04:46 PM
I'll try to pick one up off the ground in a little bit and read about it.

Southieboy
08-22-2007, 04:49 PM
we should meet again tonight

betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 04:59 PM
we should meet again tonight

This Saturday is going to be my bigest betting day of the year-no time for meetings :)

chrisl
08-22-2007, 06:26 PM
Could you explain the procott.

Ponyplayr
08-22-2007, 07:04 PM
Could you explain the procott.About 7-10 with a good lawyer.

betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 08:04 PM
Could you explain the procott.

Basically a procott is a boycott in reverse-instead of boycotting a particular track like AP or WO, players bet on a particular track. This Saturday it happens to be ALB.

The Hawk
08-22-2007, 09:07 PM
I don't know if this has been proposed yet but perhaps a thread could be started by someone better at ALB than I am that could provide a place to talk about Saturday's card. Maybe some trip info, or general handicapping insights, as opposed to simply listing picks. That might help some of those board members who are reluctant to bet because they're unsure of the racing there.

rdavislake
08-22-2007, 09:19 PM
Our HBPA guy here in Louisiana, Sean Alfortish, would do whatever he could to raise public awareness of a Bet-Int0....he can be reached at 504-945-1555.......he's one of us.......good idea SoCal........

betovernetcapper
08-22-2007, 09:26 PM
Hawk-that is genius-Would anyone with any insights on ALB please post in the selections section? I would myself.but considering my luck with posted picks, I don't want anyone betting their child's college fund on my picks. ;)

prospector
08-22-2007, 09:37 PM
csmith had a pretty good night in the selections section...
thank you csmith..wish i'd rode more with you..:jump:

INFRONT07
08-23-2007, 03:03 PM
who is weg?&bob enans? I agree with your stand.

Rook
08-23-2007, 03:10 PM
who is weg?&bob enans? I agree with your stand.

WEG is Woodbine Entertainment Group... Some Entertainment...You can watch one track at a time from their smorgasbord of 3 choices: Woodbine, Hastings and Northlands.

GaryG
08-23-2007, 03:25 PM
WEG is Woodbine Entertainment Group... Some Entertainment...You can watch one track at a time from their smorgasbord of 3 choices: Woodbine, Hastings and Northlands.Provincial eh? Good to see you back Rook. I have a cap and shirt from AsD so I guess I have to make it up there. :jump:

Rook
08-23-2007, 03:39 PM
Our family spent the summer of '79 in Winnipeg. ASD was the site of one of my happiest childhood memories. Whenever we went to the track, I would always run around and pick up every single discarded ticket that I could get my hands on. Invariably in a pile of many hundreds, there would be one winning ticket that was accidently thrown away. Usually, it was a $2 Place or Show bet but at ASD I found an exacta that paid $56. Back then comic books were 40 cents apiece so that discovery allowed me to buy 140 of them.

So when I propose to buycott ASD, this is my payback to the track that made the summer so great for an 11 year old boy.

betovernetcapper
08-27-2007, 12:51 AM
The Canadians have been rocks through this affair-at some point gotta do a now WEG Canadian track :)

rrbauer
03-17-2008, 05:28 PM
Seven (7) months have passed since this Jockey Club thing was done and what has been done for us? (Nothing?)

to us? (Hand me the Vaseline!)

by us? (Nothing? Oh, we bitched and moaned some more and then went back to the same old counter-productive habits...)

Nice doesn't work with these people. Busting them hard in their income statements: That's what works!

Rook
03-17-2008, 05:41 PM
Seven (7) months have passed since this Jockey Club thing was done and what has been done for us? (Nothing?)


There has been some progress. There are a bunch of tracks that have become available to PTC customers (ex. Beu, CT, Tam, Pen, Kee). TVG has been shown to be a reasonable company while WEG and TrackNet remain the enemy of the horseplayer. Boycotts of those two are very much warranted.

rrbauer
03-17-2008, 07:07 PM
There has been some progress. There are a bunch of tracks that have become available to PTC customers (ex. Beu, CT, Tam, Pen, Kee). TVG .

I don't view Beulah, Charles Town and Penn National as progress. Those tracks are the dregs. I wouldn't play them with OPM. Tampa is good, but frankly my account with Youbet gets about as much with them as my PTC account. Granted, I have to take their Rewards offerings, but I don't mind a monthly box of steaks and chops from Omaha Steaks. It remains to be seen how KEE shakes out with PTC. When compared with Youbet, where I get nothing on KEE bets, something from PTC will definitely be superior to nothing.

And, some of the PTC play-building tools are definitely better than anything being offered by anyone else.

On balance, I view the status quo as prevailing and until I see all of the tracks being available via all of the ADW's so that true competition can be the operative factor then we've come no more than a couple feet.

Anybody that supports an attempt to monopolize the pari-mutuel scene via vertical integration, such as TrackNet or Xpressbet, can't possibly be serious about expecting changes on the horizon that will benefit horseplayers.

I understand that CDI took it in the shorts last quarter and I hope that is a sign of the future. We all know of MEC's problems. They're on the "terminal patient" list. Everybody (I hope) understands that this IS NOT A GROWTH INDUSTRY. They WILL NOT make it up on volume! The best thing that any of us can do is to refuse to support these outfits. THEY NEED US.....WE DO NOT NEED THEM!!

PaceAdvantage
03-17-2008, 09:22 PM
I understand that CDI took it in the shorts last quarter and I hope that is a sign of the future. We all know of MEC's problems. They're on the "terminal patient" list. Everybody (I hope) understands that this IS NOT A GROWTH INDUSTRY. They WILL NOT make it up on volume! The best thing that any of us can do is to refuse to support these outfits. THEY NEED US.....WE DO NOT NEED THEM!!The man has a point, and a website devoted to this kind of thing....check it out!

www.trackthieves.com (http://www.trackthieves.com/)