I chose NOT to enter into the Petition

[Good4Now]

Since I am very much aware of the concept of "Standing" as a starting point of serious discussion when involving a group with a defined membership.

As you may or may not know, to bring a motion before a court of Law ( as an example ) you must have "Standing" in the eyes of the Court for your motion to be heard. The Jockey Club is a defined member group, and while we are the 'customer' it does not necessarily mean we have standing.

Stated in other thread: "they may not wish to insult us BUT they choose to ignore us".

IT certainly does not mean I am not tired of being IGNORED!

[stuball]

The point of this whole exercise is to take the steps necessary to be
recognized as a group with 'STANDING' We are tired of being a
necessary part of the wheel and not being recognized as such.

Stuball :bang:

[DJofSD]

Why are you worried about a legal concept? I give a fat rat's ass about legal standing. This is a protest man. If you are satisfied with the current status quo, then, fine, don't sign. I'm certainly not happy about it. As an example, I went to DMR yesterday expecting to bet the Iselin H. at MTH. Surprise -- CA wasn't taking the race. A grade 3 race but I can't even watch it. Sucks, big time.

If this ever were to come to a legal challenge which side would you be on at that time?

[Cangamble]

Well at least I know that I'm not the stupidest member of the Pace Advantage Forums.

[njcurveball]

The Jockey Club is a defined member group, and while we are the 'customer' it does not necessarily mean we have standing.



And how do you propose we get "standing", by back-biting the amazing good one person did by starting a petition?

You may not choose to be ignored, but you have made my ignore list! :lol:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Since I am very much aware of the concept of "Standing" as a starting point of serious discussion when involving a group with a defined membership.

As you may or may not know, to bring a motion before a court of Law ( as an example ) you must have "Standing" in the eyes of the Court for your motion to be heard. The Jockey Club is a defined member group, and while we are the 'customer' it does not necessarily mean we have standing.

Stated in other thread: "they may not wish to insult us BUT they choose to ignore us".

IT certainly does not mean I am not tired of being IGNORED!
In courts of law in Ca, only those in the judge's proffession of attorney ever have "legal standing".
But all the time expert witnesses are accepted as qualified to testify as experts based on their resume'.
Just think of the people whose names are used as expert witnesses or "freind of the court". If the Jockey Club or the racing industry in general does not accept many persons with 20-40 or more years of handicapping experience and part of who is producing $3 billion in takeout yearly as worth listening to, it is time to play Texas Hold'em!! Or at least pick out a very small track to bet so the industry will see a big infusion of wagering and know what's what!!

[kenwoodallpromos]

One of our members is the racing sec' of the Downs, where on the 18th there were 2 daily double pools, totals about $1,000.00 and $500.00.
Announce ahead of time betting on its DD's for 1 day and let the industry see what the total is.

[Tom]

Doesn't supplying the MONEY for whole damn sport equatea to standing?
See how long racing lasts without betting.

[toetoe]

No offense, Cangamble, but your POST was arguably "stupid." The guy made a decent point WITH a considerate preface. Flame off, Johnny Storm. :)

[AQUEBUCKS]

I have yet to see such an egregious attemt at punctilious stupidity!
Your are definitely a piece of work...

[betovernetcapper]

Guys-lighten up-we will know in a few hours how ignored or insulted to feel and can begin planning appropriate action then. I'm cautiously optimistic that we may have a positive response and in that case, Good4Now, I'm sorry but your not going to be invited to the victory party. :)

[chickenhead]

Since I am very much aware of the concept of "Standing" as a starting point of serious discussion when involving a group with a defined membership.

As you may or may not know, to bring a motion before a court of Law ( as an example ) you must have "Standing" in the eyes of the Court for your motion to be heard. The Jockey Club is a defined member group, and while we are the 'customer' it does not necessarily mean we have standing.

Stated in other thread: "they may not wish to insult us BUT they choose to ignore us".

IT certainly does not mean I am not tired of being IGNORED!

It has raised awareness already...compared to doing nothing it is a guaranteed win.

[betovernetcapper]

One of our members is the racing sec' of the Downs, where on the 18th there were 2 daily double pools, totals about $1,000.00 and $500.00.
Announce ahead of time betting on its DD's for 1 day and let the industry see what the total is.

That is a great idea-I'm in :)

[betovernetcapper]

BTW-ChickenHead was one of the 1st people to sign the petition-he did it via pmail with his real name. ;)

[DanG]

Well at least I know that I'm not the stupidest member of the Pace Advantage Forums.
I feel somewhat responsible here. In another post I asked if someone didn’t sign the petition I thought an interesting thread would be to state their reasons why not.

G4N has done that and I think we can agree calling him stupid is a bit out of line regardless of our opinion.

[Zman179]

I have yet to see such an egregious attemt at punctilious stupidity!

You know, your intellectual statement almost worked. Missed it by thatmuch.

[AQUEBUCKS]

Zman179, your point was?

I currently have (4) ADW accounts. In order to cover the menu of tracks available to us that we did not have years ago. I would rather have just one, and be able to bet ALL tracks.

I think the consensus is overwhelming. To start a thread like that, I am sure Good4Now knew he was going to catch some dissension.

What is your take?

[betovernetcapper]

This afternoon Jockey Club president Alan Marzelli, said the the ADW structure required urgent action

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40315

This is a very good start-see you tomorrow night in the War Room to discuss the boycott. :)

[Zman179]

Zman179, your point was?

I currently have (4) ADW accounts. In order to cover the menu of tracks available to us that we did not have years ago. I would rather have just one, and be able to bet ALL tracks.

I think the consensus is overwhelming. To start a thread like that, I am sure Good4Now knew he was going to catch some dissension.

What is your take?

My original point was a joke. However, I fully agree as to what you stated on this post.

Nonetheless, to call somebody stupid just for divulging his/her dissenting opinion often suppresses one from expressing what he/she really thinks in the future. I would simply state that I strongly disagree on his stance and explain my reasoning behind my proper statement.

[Good4Now]

just got back. I am glad to see something may come of the petition.

In many threads here the question kept coming up, thousands of views but four hundred plus signatures? I am as anxious as anyone to see things change for the better for those who wager on horse races and agree with any who say we as customers are treated poorly.

I am in favor of trying to show them our wagers are a significant factor even if it means witholding them. I started the POLL on "what type of wager do you make" so we can say this is what we do that affects handle. To me it shouldn't matter how much or how often only the fact that we do wager into this or that pool.

I feel no need to defend my position beyond what I initially stated. I was trying to answer a question. I come here because it is a forum. We express what we want based on what we believe. The ideas, opinions and statements here cover a broad spectrum. I often find them informative, interesting and humorous.

[dylbert]

The greatest thing about living in this free society is freedom of speech and the ability to express dissent. Disagreement and stupidity are not synonyms. Please respect those who express opinions that differ from yours.

My favorite personal story about freedom and dissent relates to my late father who was career US Air Force officer. He opposed anti-flag burning amendment. His reason was "I may not approve of someone burning US flag, but I and many others have served our country to protect the right for someone (knucklehead was his word) to perform such an act." That statement played in my head at his funeral as the flag was presented to my mother and the US government stated its appreciation for his service.

[Ponyplayr]

This Boycott is nothing more than an attempt to steer business to the tracks that Premier Turf Club offers.. Here is a link to their tracks,, http://www.premierturfclub.com/tracks.htm

Why?? They get free data from HDW and I'm thinking...REBATES

Basically... They want to take money from me so PTC can give it to them.

Screw that.. I say Boycott the Boycott!!

Read the War Room transcript..Notice how they want to help Ian...hmmmmm

[GoBabyGo]

This Boycott is nothing more than an attempt to steer business to the tracks that Premier Turf Club offers.. Here is a link to their tracks,, http://www.premierturfclub.com/tracks.htm

Why?? They get free data from HDW and I'm thinking...REBATES

Basically... They want to take money from me so PTC can give it to them.

Screw that.. I say Boycott the Boycott!!

Read the War Room transcript..Notice how they want to help Ian...hmmmmm

hey numbnuts what is your point. this isnt about ptc but they actually give a damn about us. why such a hardon for ptc anyway. i think you must be a plant for somebody. :ThmbDown:

[Ponyplayr]

hey numbnuts what is your point. this isnt about ptc but they actually give a damn about us. why such a hardon for ptc anyway. i think you must be a plant for somebody. :ThmbDown:My point is obvious.
This thing is all about steering business from one ADW to another.
I'm not playing that game.

[speedking]

My point is obvious.
This thing is all about steering business from one ADW to another.
I'm not playing that game.

I'm not shilling for PTC and neither is anyone else on this board. What we are attempting to do is funnel business to the player friendly ADW's (PTC) and tracks.

PTC is an innovator in this business and deserves support. I don't know how many other outfits carry tracks such as ASD and ALB, but you are not going to bet directly into their pools without an ADW and PTC offers the best terms by far.

I realize that we don't represent all players on this board and that is why the petition requested individual signatures. I'm sure that many members will be uncomfortable and refuse to play a smaller track like ASD, but I hope most will give them a chance. On the other hand, maybe they will show their support by not playing AP or WO.

This is not a game and we're not getting kickbacks from PTC or any track we choose to support. If you or anyone else does not see the value, especially the long-term potential, of this movement; then just keep on doing as you have always done and best of luck to you. Just don't accuse us of anything underhanded or question our motivation.

speedking

[PaceAdvantage]

My point is obvious.
This thing is all about steering business from one ADW to another.
I'm not playing that game.

This "thing" is certainly NOT about steering business from one ADW to another. It's about LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD for ALL involved. If that means making things better for folks like PTC or YouBet, then so be it.

PTC isn't the only ADW that will benefit from a level playing field. And we as handicappers will certainly benefit from the competition that develops.

[Good4Now]

also brings to the surface an interesting reflection.

Picture; racing executives discussing the foreseeable future...

"What if the horseplayers organize?"

Boisterous laughing heard.

[betovernetcapper]

Good4Now knows he's not the stupidest person on the board.

[Ponyplayr]

Good4Now knows he's not the stupidest person on the board.I'm smart enough to see through the bullshit boycott.

Good luck at Assiniboia :lol: Where all the genius's play :lol: :lol:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Woodbine IS one of their tracks on their list.

[betovernetcapper]

Good luck at Assiniboia :lol: Where all the genius's play :lol: :lol:

I've never understood the attitude that playing at a big track is somehow better than playing at a place like ALB or ASD or YAV. I know that's conventional wisdom but I've found that playing AQU inner more profitable than AQU main.

[stuball]

I'm smart enough to see through the bullshit boycott.

Good luck at Assiniboia :lol: Where all the genius's play :lol: :lol:


We can plainly see when your on the losing side of a discussion your

strategy is profanity and insults....have heard nothing constructive from

you...we at the very least are trying to get something done for all

bettors...

Stuball

[Ponyplayr]

We can plainly see when your on the losing side of a discussion your

strategy is profanity and insults....have heard nothing constructive from

you...we at the very least are trying to get something done for all

bettors...

StuballI'm not arguing..I'm pointing out the truth.

If this is a boycott.. why is Ian asking for help to enter the War Room?
What is his angle.. how or will he benefit from this?

Why are people leaving the Chat and encouraging people to Open and Fund new accounts at PTC?? How is this helping me??

I want Ian to answer these questions.

[Premier Turf Club]

I'm not arguing..I'm pointing out the truth.

If this is a boycott.. why is Ian asking for help to enter the War Room?
What is his angle.. how or will he benefit from this?

Why are people leaving the Chat and encouraging people to Open and Fund new accounts at PTC?? How is this helping me??

I want Ian to answer these questions.

Have you considered that perhaps we have a following because we provide a superior wagering experience in terms of technology, customer service, rewards, etc. There isn't anything magic to what we do, I simply treat customers the way that I would like to be treated, offer them products and features that I would enjoy using, and people have responded favorably to that.

You seem to have an awful lot of hostility toward this movement to improve the game for the customers in general, and PTC specifically. Are you a spawned ex-, or possibly someone that owes me money from a previous life? Unfortunately, being the giving person that I am there are a number of those types still crawling around South Florida.

Peace be with you mate. :)

[Ponyplayr]

Have you considered that perhaps we have a following because we provide a superior wagering experience in terms of technology, customer service, rewards, etc. There isn't anything magic to what we do, I simply treat customers the way that I would like to be treated, offer them products and features that I would enjoy using, and people have responded favorably to that.

You seem to have an awful lot of hostility toward this movement to improve the game for the customers in general, and PTC specifically. Are you a spawned ex-, or possibly someone that owes me money from a previous life? Unfortunately, being the giving person that I am there are a number of those types still crawling around South Florida.

Peace be with you mate. :)Nice slithering response..Didn't answer a single question.

I smell shill.

[betovernetcapper]

There is a problem entering the War Room for some pc configurations. This has been mentioned before. My sense is that Ian wanted to be in the War Room.
.
We are having a continuing dialog tonight and if the heads of any other ADWs want to drop by then plz come on down
:)

[GameTheory]

Because if the players move to PTC, then the other ADWs will want to COMPETE with that, and they'll make changes to improve themselves. That's how it helps you!

(Ditto for the tracks.)

[Premier Turf Club]

I'm not arguing..I'm pointing out the truth.

If this is a boycott.. why is Ian asking for help to enter the War Room?
What is his angle.. how or will he benefit from this?

Why are people leaving the Chat and encouraging people to Open and Fund new accounts at PTC?? How is this helping me??

I want Ian to answer these questions.

a) I had never been in the War Room and I wanted to see what was being discussed. In fact up until yesterday, I had no idea people chatted here on-line. I am not an on-line chat kind of guy. Yes, I know, OF COURSE I have a dog in this fight. I never claimed otherwise. And OF COURSE I have a rooting interest supporting the tracks we currently have. Not because they are PTC tracks but because they believe in dealing with all licensed ADWs.

b) Open access helps EVERYONE. Competition breeds innovation and forces all of us to step up our game. Why do utilities (cable, phone, electricity) for the most part suck? Because they can, because you have no choices.

Biting tongue again... :)

[Ponyplayr]

a) I had never been in the War Room and I wanted to see what was being discussed. In fact up until yesterday, I had no idea people chatted here on-line. I am not an on-line chat kind of guy. Yes, I know, OF COURSE I have a dog in this fight. I never claimed otherwise. And OF COURSE I have a rooting interest supporting the tracks we currently have. Not because they are PTC tracks but because they believe in dealing with all licensed ADWs.

b) Open access helps EVERYONE. Competition breeds innovation and forces all of us to step up our game. Why do utilities (cable, phone, electricity) for the most part suck? Because they can, because you have no choices.

Biting tongue again... :) Now.. How hard was that. I appreciate the response.
You don't have to bite your tongue..I don't take things personal.

[Indulto]

Have you considered that perhaps we have a following because we provide a superior wagering experience in terms of technology, customer service, rewards, etc. There isn't anything magic to what we do, I simply treat customers the way that I would like to be treated, offer them products and features that I would enjoy using, and people have responded favorably to that.

You seem to have an awful lot of hostility toward this movement to improve the game for the customers in general, and PTC specifically. Are you a spawned ex-, or possibly someone that owes me money from a previous life? Unfortunately, being the giving person that I am there are a number of those types still crawling around South Florida.

Peace be with you mate. :)Nice slithering response..Didn't answer a single question.

I smell shill.PTC,
Is a spawned ex a spurned ex in spandex?:jump:

PP,
I’m sure you perceive -- as I do – that this movement is initially made up primarily of PTC supporters. That isn’t surprising because most people who are actually concerned about better bettor treatment and freedom of choice have already recognized that PTC is, so far, the only ADW making any effort to address those concerns.

I would address one of your concerns by suggesting that when it comes to selecting a procott track, it should be ADW-neutral. IF MNR is the only track offered by all existing ADWs, then that should be the target/beneficiary.

If anyone can suggest an L.A. simulcast center other than HOL or SA where I could bet MNR I would appreciate it as I am boycotting both TVG and Xpressbet, and have been wary of YouBet since their acquisitions of an offshore rebate shop and a tote company (implying CRW aspirations).

As far as PTC’s participation, what better source of industry knowledge and ADW operation could we possibly find who would be willing to help? Do you know any other industry executive with his understanding of the game as both a player and industry analyst?

Perhaps enthusiastic participation by such as yourself would help us ensure that his interests are OUR interests while he helps us. Sniping isn’t going to cut it. If you have any more suspicions, spit ‘em out. Maybe you don't take things personal, but you sure give them.

I hear shrill. ;)

P.S. To any activists out there enamored of the word “stupid,” find another term when addressing dissension.:ThmbDown:

[Premier Turf Club]

That was very good. Touche. :lol:

I meant spurned. I shouldn't carry on conversations on the phone while I'm typing a post.

[betovernetcapper]

PP,
I’m sure you perceive -- as I do – that this movement is initially made up primarily of PTC supporters. That isn’t surprising because most people who are actually concerned about better bettor treatment and freedom of choice have already recognized that PTC is, so far, the only ADW making any effort to address those concerns.

[/font]

I'd just like to briefly comment on this. While this may have started out with PTC supporters, if you look at the petition we have people that have never even heard of PTC. This is about creating a betting situation that works for everyone.

[JustRalph]

Maybe somebody should take note of who's not commenting on this stuff......there are some serious players and members of this board that I find conspicuous by their absence.

I have to admit that I was a little worried when the discussion of steering handle to certain tracks and ADW's was mentioned. Immediately turned me off. Steering handle is completely different than showing solidarity and using a strength in numbers approach to merit notice on different issues. In plain speak, a boycott is a boycott.........the numbers on this board won't make any track blink. But public attention will. But attempting to steer handle just won't work. Too much bullshit to get it done. Too many ADW's to deal with etc......it is inflexible. A boycott is easy. You just don't play.

This movement needs a damn name and some leadership and rules. It is attached to this board and we need to be aware of this. One screw up, one embarrassment and this momentum becomes a joke. This board becomes just another bunch of Internet crap. Slow down and think about this.

I think the petition and this momentum is a nice start. But Mike/PA has a reputation, so do many others. If you are going to do this. Do it right. Don't embarrass anybody and don't be subject to accusations of shilling for one particular betting interest or service. This can be an extremely complicated issue(s) and knowledgeable persons with broad interests on behalf of many different players need to be involved.

I admire what is happening, but think twice about how to go about this. There is a very serious intelligentsia in this game. They have their own weekly articles, radio shows and more. They can squash any movement in a weeks time. They can publicly discredit and ridicule. I urge a slow steady approach. And I recommend a more broad approach that doesn't steer any handle or business. Not yet, anyway.

just my two cents

[betovernetcapper]

Ralph-
nothings been chisled in stone so drop by-tonight's meeting has been changed to 9pm eastern
BTW sevearal people can't access the War Room

[Indulto]

I'd just like to briefly comment on this. While this may have started out with PTC supporters, if you look at the petition we have people that have never even heard of PTC. This is about creating a betting situation that works for everyone.bonc,
The petition and the boycott are separate actions. Support for one does not automatically mean support for the other. The first was novel and unintrusive. The second will draw blood.

Support for a boycott will require attracting people that don't read this board. I doubt that leaflets at Taco Bells would have the same broad appeal as PA's e-mail.

I applaud you for thinking tough and wanting to keep the momentum, but IMO now's the time to see if the Jockey Club and the HPBA will pick up the slack with steady encouragement by e-mail. For me the real battle ground is in Calif. The TOC will have a tremendous impact on horseplayers both inside and outside the state. Consequently THEY are my personal priority over TrackNet.

That doesn't mean I won't support this effort if it makes sense, but I definitely think the advice that both Chick and JR offered is worth a lot more than $0.02 :ThmbUp:

[JustMissed]

Maybe somebody should take note of who's not commenting on this stuff......there are some serious players and members of this board that I find conspicuous by their absence.


We want names Ralph. Just name the names.

JM

[betovernetcapper]

:lol: :lol:

[JustMissed]

We want names Ralph. Just name the names.

JM

Every time I post it seems that 4 or 5 threads go to the top of the list ahead of the thread I posted to.

I have even check the times and some threads had their last post much earlier in the day but yet they are ahead of the thread I posted to.

What's going on. I didn't think Mike would attempt this sort of censorship but this is beginning to look suspious.

JM

p.s. Let's see how long this thread stays on top? 7.15PM EDT

[chickenhead]

The Black Helicopters are coming JM!

See where it says "Sticky" next to the other threads. That means they'll stay at the top always, until or unless they are unstickyized.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Every time I post it seems that 4 or 5 threads go to the top of the list ahead of the thread I posted to.

I have even check the times and some threads had their last post much earlier in the day but yet they are ahead of the thread I posted to.

What's going on. I didn't think Mike would attempt this sort of censorship but this is beginning to look suspious.

JM

p.s. Let's see how long this thread stays on top? 7.15PM EDT


JM,
It's on top now!
Of course you do know the 3 ahead of it have a 'Sticky' beside them,which means they have a permanent position until Mike drops them into the mix of threads?
TTRAC

[JustMissed]

Thanks guys. I didn't think Mike was that sort but this ADW thing is so political(read "money") I hoped that Mike didn't want JustRalph not to name names for some covert reason.

I was just thinking though, my partner has satelite radio in all his vehicles. I use his truck sometimes to make sales calls and I asked him one day what station Howard Stern was on. He has XM radio and he told me Howard was on the other provider.

I'm not sure, but I suppose both satelite radio providers have different programs and the consumer has a choice and of course should be able to get both if they want and can afford them.

To be honest, if a guy is playing the horses and cannot afford more than one ADW, then he probably should not be playing at all.

For convience's sake, I'm sure it would be nice to only have one ADW that carries every race in the whole f**king world but would that really be a "good thing". Might end up like the movie "Power Ball".

If a new guy wants to run with the big dogs(read compete with the larger/more established ADWs) then he should pony up and grease some palms to get the signals. If not, then natural selection takes over and the big boys win.

That is just the way things work. I don't particulary like it, but that is just the way it is.

JM

[rrbauer]

The only thing that has "standing" in this issue is horseplayers' money. When enough horseplayers withhold their money then they will get the attention of the industry's "leadership" and they will have "standing" where industry change and pari-mutuel overhaul are concerned. When we stop wasting our energy arguing with each other and direct that energy towards a single objective (reduce takeout, eliminate breakage, make all bets with a single ADW) then we will get results. Otherwise, we will fill this board up with a lot of text and we will accomplish nothing.

For tens of years the industry "leadership" has survived because the concept of "divide and conquer" has worked to their advantage. When we waste our time arguing with each other we play right into that strategy.

[trying2win]

Interesting thread here. Also, PONYPLAYR has just earned the 20th spot on my IGNORE LIST.

[Indulto]

The only thing that has "standing" in this issue is horseplayers' money. When enough horseplayers withhold their money then they will get the attention of the industry's "leadership" and they will have "standing" where industry change and pari-mutuel overhaul are concerned. When we stop wasting our energy arguing with each other and direct that energy towards a single objective (reduce takeout, eliminate breakage, make all bets with a single ADW) then we will get results. Otherwise, we will fill this board up with a lot of text and we will accomplish nothing.

For tens of years the industry "leadership" has survived because the concept of "divide and conquer" has worked to their advantage. When we waste our time arguing with each other we play right into that strategy.Well said, rrb.

If I may interpret the bolded portion to mean "be able to make all offered wagers at all tracks through any ADW," then surely these are the core issues around which we should be able to unite.