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Alan Wight
08-17-2007, 03:16 PM
Has anyone attempted to determine the value of a beaten length at the finish using the Trakus data for KEE and DMR that has become available this year?

This is what I've found:

The lengths are not represented by feet, but by seconds:

KEE: 17 sec/length, except 8.5 furlongs which is 20 sec
DMR: 19 sec/length

Handicappers have argued for years about the value of a beaten length. The debate has been centered on the question of how LONG a horse length is, ie 10 feet, 9 feet, 8 feet, etc. This debate is still relevant for the fractional calls, but with regard to the finish, the question apparently should be: how much time does a length equal? I didn't realize until I attempted to use the Trakus data to solve the question of the horse length, that the value of a beaten length is not based on the length of the horse, but is based on a time which is programmed into the photo finish software. Unfortunately, as the figures for DMR and KEE above suggest, this time is not necessarily the same from track to track, nor even from distance to distance at the same track. In fact, it can probably be changed at the whim of the photo finish operator (as a story in Ragozin's The Odds Must Be Crazy suggests).

The main problem, however, is that this information is considered secret and not available to the public. That is, once you realize what's going on, you will find that there is no public source for most of the information. I'm not sure how this came to be, but it doesn't seem quite right that the public at large has been led to believe that a length is always equal to a length.

Am I the only one here who did not know the truth?

Can anyone corroborate the values above for KEE and DMR? Does anyone know the values for tracks other than KEE and DMR?

Overlay
08-17-2007, 03:31 PM
I assume you meant .17, .20, and .19, rather than 17, 20, and 19, respectively?

Good4Now
08-17-2007, 03:53 PM
Alan, I think you're on the right concept but I would strongly urge you to try handtiming many races then compare them with printed results charts.

GameTheory
08-17-2007, 04:10 PM
Handicappers have argued for years about the value of a beaten length. The debate has been centered on the question of how LONG a horse length is, ie 10 feet, 9 feet, 8 feet, etc. This debate is still relevant for the fractional calls, but with regard to the finish, the question apparently should be: how much time does a length equal? I didn't realize until I attempted to use the Trakus data to solve the question of the horse length, that the value of a beaten length is not based on the length of the horse, but is based on a time which is programmed into the photo finish software.Actually, we've talked about the length = time thing for years, as well as the usual arguments about beaten lengths. Check out these threads, most featuring a whole lot of babbling by myself:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1116
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5901
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7593
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9753
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12319
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12394
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15377
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15385
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17146
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35112

trigger
08-17-2007, 05:07 PM
Has anyone attempted to determine the value of a beaten length at the finish using the Trakus data for KEE and DMR that has become available this year?

This is what I've found:

The lengths are not represented by feet, but by seconds:

KEE: 17 sec/length, except 8.5 furlongs which is 20 sec
DMR: 19 sec/length

Handicappers have argued for years about the value of a beaten length. The debate has been centered on the question of how LONG a horse length is, ie 10 feet, 9 feet, 8 feet, etc. This debate is still relevant for the fractional calls, but with regard to the finish, the question apparently should be: how much time does a length equal? I didn't realize until I attempted to use the Trakus data to solve the question of the horse length, that the value of a beaten length is not based on the length of the horse, but is based on a time which is programmed into the photo finish software. Unfortunately, as the figures for DMR and KEE above suggest, this time is not necessarily the same from track to track, nor even from distance to distance at the same track. In fact, it can probably be changed at the whim of the photo finish operator (as a story in Ragozin's The Odds Must Be Crazy suggests).

The main problem, however, is that this information is considered secret and not available to the public. That is, once you realize what's going on, you will find that there is no public source for most of the information. I'm not sure how this came to be, but it doesn't seem quite right that the public at large has been led to believe that a length is always equal to a length.

Am I the only one here who did not know the truth?

Can anyone corroborate the values above for KEE and DMR? Does anyone know the values for tracks other than KEE and DMR?

Try checking out the Trakus website and emailing them about your questions.
Also, the American Teletimer web site has some useful information and, if you email them about time per length used in their charts, they will respond to you with enough information that you can infer the time per second they use for beaten lengths for thoroughbred races in the charts (they do consider it proprietary info for some strange reason)....at least, they did when I contacted them a couple of years ago.

kitts
08-18-2007, 12:45 PM
Guess I'll stick with 1/5 second for 1 length in keeping with my love for imprecision :o)

Good4Now
08-18-2007, 02:41 PM
Does it really matter ANYWAY?

kenwoodallpromos
08-18-2007, 05:01 PM
"Length-
Unit of measurement in racing and charting terminology. The length of an American Quarter Horse, the distance from the horse's nose to the tip of his flying tail, is .16 seconds (16/100ths), while the length of a Thoroughbred is .20 seconds (20/100ths)."

Good4Now
08-18-2007, 05:30 PM
6 and 1/4 QH's equal 5 TB's

I gotta WRITE that down!

Robert Fischer
08-18-2007, 05:46 PM
Two different definitions of lengths in the same race.

at the "chart calls": 1 beaten length = 8 feet

at the "finish": 1 beaten length = 0.18 seconds (per photofinish technology)