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Nacumi
08-17-2007, 10:14 AM
Hi all,
I'm new to the board, and a thoroughbred breeder/owner in PA. We have a small string of homebreds stabled with our trainers on the farm. Our focus is primarily "long on the lawn", though we've had some success on the dirt, too. We race from NY to VA.
I look forward to talking with all of you about the business and our industry.
:)

Tom
08-17-2007, 11:09 AM
Welcome....looking forward to your thoughts on the game.

46zilzal
08-17-2007, 11:23 AM
Hi all,
I'm new to the board, and a thoroughbred breeder/owner in PA. We have a small string of homebreds stabled with our trainers on the farm. Our focus is primarily "long on the lawn", though we've had some success on the dirt, too. We race from NY to VA.
I look forward to talking with all of you about the business and our industry.

Why don't they ever try long on the dirt? All the stamina any longer is on the green. Keep that up and no one will know where dirt stamina sires are located.

Nacumi
08-17-2007, 11:29 AM
Why don't they ever try long on the dirt? All the stamina any longer is on the green. Keep that up and no one will know where dirt stamina sires are located.

They can all go long on the dirt, too, just not as fast. ;) We've had most of our maiden breakers on the dirt. Our theory was based on pedigrees, penchants, strides and training regimen. We can work ours over thousands acres of hilly grass gallops (track trainers can't), so it's our only real advantage shipping in to race.
Our next challenge will be seeing whether they can handle going long on the TapetaPolyCushion. :confused: Being race fit for the turf sometimes doesn't translate on deeper, softer surfaces.

boomman
08-17-2007, 11:33 AM
Welcome to the board Nacumi! The pace advantage members are really becoming proactive in bettering the sport (see our petition) and we look forward to your prospective and hopefully your support from a horsemen's view...:)

Boomer

DanG
08-17-2007, 12:03 PM
Why don't they ever try long on the dirt? All the stamina any longer is on the green. Keep that up and no one will know where dirt stamina sires are located.
That is 46’s way of welcoming you aboard in his unique & charmimg style.

Welcome! :ThmbUp:

PS: Here’s hoping some of your turf stock can take advantage of the new Tapeta course at Presque Isle Downs.

46zilzal
08-17-2007, 12:09 PM
That is 46’s way of welcoming you aboard in his unique & charmimg style.


If the fellow came to this board, where we discuss all manner of horse racing, then a question regarding his opening statement is par for the course.

46zilzal
08-17-2007, 12:10 PM
Our next challenge will be seeing whether they can handle going long on the TapetaPolyCushion. :confused: Being race fit for the turf sometimes doesn't translate on deeper, softer surfaces.
Of those three, I hear the "scuttlebutt" that Tapeta is the best. What has been your experience???

Dave Schwartz
08-17-2007, 12:21 PM
Nacumi,

Welcome. Hope you enjoy yourself here.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Nacumi
08-17-2007, 12:22 PM
Hi Boon,
Your petition is what got me reading this forum. It's an awful conundrum that the "business" has become, now made more complicated because of signals being held for ransom and fans getting the short shrift. I would offer one additional comment: without the owners (manufacturing) retaining skin in the game, none of the other businesses would exist, pure and simple. We create the content from which selling agencies, venue operators, trainers, jockeys, vets, backside workers, TV distribution and wagering platforms all make their money, their "vig." If we stop breeding to race, it all goes away.

What chaps my hide is that the big time breeding and racing businesses (unlike the small time folks like us who breed our own stock to race) are COMPLETELY disconnected now. It's what has led to early retirements for lucrative stud deals. Pay too much for a yearling, flip it to some other eager buyer, race it into the ground and retire it to stud at 3, having made all your money on the early transactions, instead of investing in the horse recovering or staying in training for a longer racing career. Lather, rinse, repeat.;)
One solution might be to stop incenting owners who buy overpriced 2yos. to run in zillion dollar races before their stock's fully grown. In other words, stop the hyped overpaying first. The only way right now to recover your ROI is to push too fast, too soon. The 2yo. in training sales are a bizarre practice. How does running a single furlong under tack foretell the ability to run a route later that fall, or the following spring? Why do people buy into that hooey? Here's a wild idea: how about incenting at the other end instead, building up the pay scale up for handicap and distance horses? How about writing races so that a stallion actually has to be 5 or older to have its get compete? You'd certainly halt the early retirement rut in which we seem to be with our superstars these days, in addition to the problem of stallions with later maturing babies getting "unfashionable" (by current industry standards) quickly. In every other business, you're supposed to earn more as you get older and more experienced, aren't you? :confused: The cry for stamina and router influences will continue to go unheard if the industry demands and only pays for speed, speed, speed and sprinting sires for precocious two year olds. When did thoroughbreds become quarterhorses? Did I miss a memo? :bang:

There is nothing more intoxicating than the winner's circle: to have it be with a horse you raised from birth is extraordinary. Just getting a homebred to the races is an accomplishment in and of itself, given how many others don't ever get there. I think a lot of the "mercenaries" in our industry have lost touch with that old-fashioned "sportsmen" mentality, leaving it to the starry-eyed dreamers like us.
Ah well. Just my opinion; I could be wrong. For my next rant, I'd like to discuss rampant drug abuse, steroids and out of competition testing.
:p

DanG
08-17-2007, 12:27 PM
The cry for stamina and router influences will continue to go unheard if the industry demands and only pays for speed, speed, speed and sprinting sires for precocious two year olds. When did thoroughbreds become quarterhorses? Did I miss a memo? :bang:

Here…here brother.

Excellent post! :ThmbUp:

46zilzal
08-17-2007, 12:36 PM
If someone or some group does not take up the call to bring back stamina, the breed will be lost. I have been harping on this since I had a letter to the editor published in Unbridled's Derby edition of the Bloodhorse. Many industry people recognize that stamina is eroding, but DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

There are only a handful of 10 furlong races left (mostly three year old contests) and a single 12. All the true tests, like the Jockey Club Gold Cup and old Sunset Hdcp, the Display and many others are just footnotes in old American Racing Manuals.

If there is yin without yang the continuity is lost.

Also I am of the strong belief that two year olds should be limited to 6 starts maximum as babies, maybe even 5 and only after June 15th.

46zilzal
08-17-2007, 12:52 PM
Stamina has been an age related phenomenon. Many a three year old cannot compete longer until there is enough bottom to learn to apportion their speed over a long trip. Chief's Crown and Holy Bull come to mind as they won the Traver's after failing at classic distances earlier. These colts were at the top of the game whereas many lesser ones take longer to attain that ability.

Look at stamina sports in humans. I recall that most long distance skiers, the world class ones, are all in their 30's. Most long distance runners in marathons fall into that same age range.

Someone, some where is going to have to clang the bell and remind all who participate as to what the thoroughbred was traditionally bred to do: run and run at distances. I am a speed handicapper, but I realize that speed without a dose of stamina is a dead end proposition. Fragile legs, faint lungs, shorter racing life...it all goes together to inhibit, not promote the game.

Horsefan
08-17-2007, 01:33 PM
Welcome to the board Nacumi:)

boomman
08-17-2007, 01:46 PM
Hi Boon,
Your petition is what got me reading this forum. It's an awful conundrum that the "business" has become, now made more complicated because of signals being held for ransom and fans getting the short shrift. I would offer one additional comment: without the owners (manufacturing) retaining skin in the game, none of the other businesses would exist, pure and simple. We create the content from which selling agencies, venue operators, trainers, jockeys, vets, backside workers, TV distribution and wagering platforms all make their money, their "vig." If we stop breeding to race, it all goes away.

What chaps my hide is that the big time breeding and racing businesses (unlike the small time folks like us who breed our own stock to race) are COMPLETELY disconnected now. It's what has led to early retirements for lucrative stud deals. Pay too much for a yearling, flip it to some other eager buyer, race it into the ground and retire it to stud at 3, having made all your money on the early transactions, instead of investing in the horse recovering or staying in training for a longer racing career. Lather, rinse, repeat.;)
One solution might be to stop incenting owners who buy overpriced 2yos. to run in zillion dollar races before their stock's fully grown. In other words, stop the hyped overpaying first. The only way right now to recover your ROI is to push too fast, too soon. The 2yo. in training sales are a bizarre practice. How does running a single furlong under tack foretell the ability to run a route later that fall, or the following spring? Why do people buy into that hooey? Here's a wild idea: how about incenting at the other end instead, building up the pay scale up for handicap and distance horses? How about writing races so that a stallion actually has to be 5 or older to have its get compete? You'd certainly halt the early retirement rut in which we seem to be with our superstars these days, in addition to the problem of stallions with later maturing babies getting "unfashionable" (by current industry standards) quickly. In every other business, you're supposed to earn more as you get older and more experienced, aren't you? :confused: The cry for stamina and router influences will continue to go unheard if the industry demands and only pays for speed, speed, speed and sprinting sires for precocious two year olds. When did thoroughbreds become quarterhorses? Did I miss a memo? :bang:

There is nothing more intoxicating than the winner's circle: to have it be with a horse you raised from birth is extraordinary. Just getting a homebred to the races is an accomplishment in and of itself, given how many others don't ever get there. I think a lot of the "mercenaries" in our industry have lost touch with that old-fashioned "sportsmen" mentality, leaving it to the starry-eyed dreamers like us.
Ah well. Just my opinion; I could be wrong. For my next rant, I'd like to discuss rampant drug abuse, steroids and out of competition testing.
:p

Nacumi: You have come to the right place! Your comments are right on the button and we frequently discuss the issues at the bottom of your thread, so fire away!

Boomer

statik27
08-17-2007, 02:09 PM
At the turn of the 20th century we had what I would call "Stewards" of the game. People like Hancock, Whitney, Bradley,...People who took it upon themselves to import hardy european stock with "bottom" when they saw the North American lines deteriorating.

And where are those "Stewards" now. Gone. That mentality died with Paul Mellon. And now we're left with a flood of commercial breeders all selling the same paper cut out babies who can work an 1/8th of a mile, but can't run a Mile and an 1/8th. Sad really.

Perhaps Thoroughbreds haven't quite become QH's yet, but the JC could take a page from the AQHA and start having ratings attached to all Registered Thoroughbreds who have comepeted on the track. From there its only a short jump to creating a series of criteria for a horse to be able to breed and/or race.
I know this doesn't fit in the whole "a champ can come from anywhere" mentality, but resrictions have to made if the breed is going to thrive into the future. Perhaps a little selective breeding is needed for that to happen. Its been done before, and I see no reason it shouldn't be done again.

And for godsake's do we really need 45,000 T-Breds born in this country every year?

Statik

Nacumi
08-17-2007, 02:11 PM
Stamina has been an age related phenomenon. Many a three year old cannot compete longer until there is enough bottom to learn to apportion their speed over a long trip. Chief's Crown and Holy Bull come to mind as they won the Traver's after failing at classic distances earlier. These colts were at the top of the game whereas many lesser ones take longer to attain that ability.

Look at stamina sports in humans. I recall that most long distance skiers, the world class ones, are all in their 30's.

Zil,
A couple of things. In answer to your first question up in the thread, Tapeta seems to get the most favorable rating among the composition tracks, though statistically, it's too early to tell. I haven't been to Fairhill yet, but I believe our trainers do plan to take our runners for a turn over the surface there to "feel" it out. The Fairhill-based trainers love it.

Second, per this quote, it's not just in racing where age and experience are benefits. Take a look at the other sporthorse disciplines (like the Olympics 3 day eventing) and check out the ages of horses on the European countries' teams. The Euros tend to scoff at any equine competitor not in its teens, because it takes years to school them properly for those disciplines. You do see more and more thoroughbreds in their ranks (crossed with warmbloods), but the thoroughbreds are prized for their stamina and speed in the cross country portion. You need a pretty cool head for dressage and jumping, and most t-breds can be anything but.
If people would just pay close attention and do the right thing with the stock they actually have (that means pedigree, size, action, mind), versus what they think they want or should have, I bet we fans would have a lot more classic type horses sticking around past their sophomore years.

A friend of mine, looking at a picture of our then two year old filly (now 3, 16.1 hands and about 1300 pounds) said, "Wow. She'll make a great 5yo. racemare once she grows into that frame." No, she didn't start at 2. She didn't even start till last month, finishing 3rd, going 8.5 panels first time out in MSW. 2nd try, 9 panels. Won, was DQ'd to 3rd. Big brother did the same thing a year before. My hope for the 2yo. in the queue is that he can skip over the 2nd start jinx by winning the first, whenever that is. Could be this year, could be next.
You can run them long if they're bred for it and they're allowed to "grow" into it. Unfortunately, patience in this game is as scarce as simulcast signals anymore. :rolleyes:

46zilzal
08-17-2007, 02:32 PM
Too many potential great ones never got a shot before the tendons and sesamoids were shot to hell.

Would a race car driver take off in a vehicle with wide soft ended spaces between parts in the suspension? He would be crazy to do it, but no one considers the same handicap for the babies.

I used to get a rash of injured children every Fall when they returned to competitive sports. Usually they centered around secondary growth plates in the lower limb being aggravated by repetitive motion injuries like Haglund's deformity (retrocalcaneal bursitis, common in all kids but worst in skaters) or tibial tubercle (surfer's knots). These secondary growth plates are active in later childhood and fuse to the main body of the adjacent bone only near the time of puberty. Much like the immature head of the radius being evulsed when little league pitchers try to throw too hard.

Once these are injured, it can alter the growth of that bone . If they are impacted too heavily, the growth plate is injured and it sets the stage for later skeletal asymmetry.

kenwoodallpromos
08-17-2007, 03:17 PM
Simply stated- sires are rated by personal and offspring stakes wins, so I think racing plays into the auction prices along with 1 or 2f speed. You cannot have racing without breeding, but you cannot set breeding fees or auction prices without considering race results.
As far as stamina vs. early speed, I think often it is in the mind of the opiner.
Some recent TC winners have had numerous races in which they ran even fractions. look at the lawyer Ron track record controversy- no one has so far claimed that he ran the last fraction much slower than the other fractions, but the fact that he showed good stamina is outweighed by arguments as to if he ran faster overall than anyone else. But IMO, his record of staying close to the pace in many races and not fading makes his breeding potential more valuable than a track record on a souped up track. There are many track record holders who either are geldings or are not the top sires. And in sire ads the final times do not seem to be prominent.
As far as racing too young: As a breeder of horses growing up on a grass surface, you may know that most dirt tracks have a limestone or rock base and horses run daily hundreds of times per year on that. Also, it has come to my attenton that immature horses are called "colt" or "filly", and since most racers are one of those two, the racing industry knows they are racing horses into retirement prior to the horse even reaching maturity. Heck, some sires may have mare pregnant with the 2nd crop prior to their turning 5 years old! IMO may be tougher to rate long-term breeding success with sires not proven long-term.

Nacumi
08-17-2007, 04:04 PM
As far as racing too young: As a breeder of horses growing up on a grass surface, you may know that most dirt tracks have a limestone or rock base and horses run daily hundreds of times per year on that. Also, it has come to my attenton that immature horses are called "colt" or "filly", and since most racers are one of those two, the racing industry knows they are racing horses into retirement prior to the horse even reaching maturity. Heck, some sires may have mare pregnant with the 2nd crop prior to their turning 5 years old! IMO may be tougher to rate long-term breeding success with sires not proven long-term.

Kenwood,
Maybe I'm missing something in your post. I've been around racing a while and am acutely aware of the structure of dirt tracks, but is your inference that, by breeding for and working our horses over grass, we're not aiming for the mass market? If that's the case, you're correct. By training on grass, the natural surface on which horses are actually born to run, and which much of the racing world outside the U.S. primarily uses, we think we have a good shot at building long-term equity in our "equine" product. We also want to give our horses a shot at other careers after they retire from the flat, or if they don't take to racing. Though injuries can occur on either surface, racing repeatedly on hard dirt courses can be very tough on young shins and open knees. By the way, if horses were "running daily hundreds of times per year" on those dirt tracks, they wouldn't be running for long. ;)

Also, for your edification, all male horses (other than geldings) under the age of 5 are referred to as colts, and at 5 and over, as horses. Female horses under the age of 5 are fillies: over age 5, mares, regardless of whether or not they've been bred. It has nothing to do with a perception of immaturity by the industry.
Re: my point about sires, I hope you understood my meaning. I would love a sea change to occur by requiring race eligibility to be determined, just for example, by the age of the sire at conception, i.e., over 5. That would eliminate the race off the track to the shed for many 3 yo. male stars.

Kelso
08-18-2007, 12:24 AM
Nacumi,

It's good to look forward to hearing from an owner/breeder. I know there are more than a few already on this board but, for my preferences, we don't hear from them enough about their views and challenges.

I'm firmly in the "what the hell is this all about" stage of my training cycle. Learning what it's like in the barns has been an unexpected and welcomed bonus of reading PA.

Welcome.

jotb
08-18-2007, 11:39 AM
Zil,

A friend of mine, looking at a picture of our then two year old filly (now 3, 16.1 hands and about 1300 pounds) said, "Wow. She'll make a great 5yo. racemare once she grows into that frame." No, she didn't start at 2. She didn't even start till last month, finishing 3rd, going 8.5 panels first time out in MSW. 2nd try, 9 panels. Won, was DQ'd to 3rd. Big brother did the same thing a year before. My hope for the 2yo. in the queue is that he can skip over the 2nd start jinx by winning the first, whenever that is. Could be this year, could be next.
You can run them long if they're bred for it and they're allowed to "grow" into it. Unfortunately, patience in this game is as scarce as simulcast signals anymore. :rolleyes:

Hello Nacumi:

Welcome to the board. That was tough that day when you were taken down. Sometimes that left hand can get a rider in trouble. In regard to big brother Kendrick might have been in the same situation because the horse was lugging out that day. I was surprise to see the filly over at DEL since big brother didn't seem to like the turf course there except for the time he was DQ on tht day. Big brother seem to take to the turf at Laurel and I was wondering if you might run the filly there or back to PHA. Anyway, I wish you luck in the near future and hopefully see you in the winners circle soon.

Best regards,
Joe

kenwoodallpromos
08-18-2007, 04:47 PM
You are not missing anything! I soentime on racehorse injury issues and like the sound of the way you run your outfit!
I am of the opinion that racehorses may be able to race longer if they are given more time off the harder dirt tracksMass market- I'm not inplying anything negative about grass; Besides, the number of artificial surfaces are increasing and some of the top runners lately seem to do OK on either surface.

Nacumi
08-19-2007, 09:37 AM
Hello Nacumi:

Welcome to the board. That was tough that day when you were taken down. Sometimes that left hand can get a rider in trouble. In regard to big brother Kendrick might have been in the same situation because the horse was lugging out that day. I was surprise to see the filly over at DEL since big brother didn't seem to like the turf course there except for the time he was DQ on tht day. Big brother seem to take to the turf at Laurel and I was wondering if you might run the filly there or back to PHA. Anyway, I wish you luck in the near future and hopefully see you in the winners circle soon.

Best regards,
Joe

Thanks so much! Yes, we'll head back to the PHA with her as soon as they reopen. I hear they actually aerated and top dressed the "durf" course, so the next few days of rain should help it.

DanG
08-19-2007, 09:44 AM
And for godsake's do we really need 45,000 T-Breds born in this country every year?
Statik
Good point! :ThmbUp: