Del Mar President Another Who Just Doesn't Get It

[LaughAndBeMerry]

“Off-track wagering sites don't make new racing fans. You go in and watch a TV – no one cheers; there is no pageantry to the sport.”


“This isn't the gambling business. It isn't the restaurant business. This is the entertainment business,” Harper said. “


http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/delmarraces/20070815-9999-1b15harper.html

[ArlJim78]

not about gambling eh? so this guy think he his customers paying for pageantry?

its no wonder we're in such a mess.

[boomman]

“Off-track wagering sites don't make new racing fans. You go in and watch a TV – no one cheers; there is no pageantry to the sport.”


“This isn't the gambling business. It isn't the restaurant business. This is the entertainment business,” Harper said. “


http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/delmarraces/20070815-9999-1b15harper.html

Although I would tend to agree that the pageantry can be missing a bit from otb's, no cheering or yelling at an otb? Obviously, Mr Harper hasn't been to one lately. And before I go off on my strong disagreement with his ridiculous statement, let me state for the record that I have spoken with Joe Harper on several occasions and I know he really cares about Del Mar and trying to make it better. But he is totally off base with the free head banger concerts that he holds on Friday nights which have made it so difficult for the betting public (the folks that ACTUALLY support Del Mar) to depart the facility through the sea of young kids that have ABSOLUTELY no interest in horse racing that Trevor Denman had to announce a special caution for departing race fans to stay away from the Plaza de Mexico area last Friday night. It is absolutely beyond comprehension that a GM of a track that averaged 14 million in daily handle last year has the audacity to say that he isn't in the gambling business. I have an idea Joe, make the Del Mar meet non-wagering, sell tickets to the head banger "entertainment" concerts and see how long you're in business. Revamp your words Mr Harper and pay attention to the players FIRST, then you can entertain all you want. Wasn't it you grandfather (Cecil B DeMille) who was in the entertainment business, but you????:confused:

Boomer

[Tom]

Stop taking bets and see how the pagent turn into a funeral!

[foregoforever]

I'd tend not to rip Harper on this. Del Mar is a special, isolated situation. When you're running a mid-summer meet at the ocean with perfect weather, it's a different business than running Aqueduct in the winter. Entertainment, atmosphere and enjoyment are a big piece of Del Mar ... and Saratoga.

And I agree that otb's don't generate many new fans. Well-managed ones can certainly sustain interest and service those not close to a track, but it can't compare to seeing horses and races in the flesh for building new fans.

Harper's been running Del Mar for almost 30 years, and everyone that goes there absolutely loves it. I'd say he "gets it" quite well in his part of the business.

[highnote]

Harper's been running Del Mar for almost 30 years, and everyone that goes there absolutely loves it. I'd say he "gets it" quite well in his part of the business.

So what drive's Del Mar's business -- entertainment or gambling?

To paraphrase Tom: Take away gambling and will people still show up in droves to watch horses run in a circle?

I don't know the answer, but my hallucination is that without gambling Del Mar would not be as entertaining.

Without gambling, would OTB patrons have the least bit of interest in cheering for the races there?

[boomman]

I'd tend not to rip Harper on this. Del Mar is a special, isolated situation. When you're running a mid-summer meet at the ocean with perfect weather, it's a different business than running Aqueduct in the winter. Entertainment, atmosphere and enjoyment are a big piece of Del Mar ... and Saratoga.

And I agree that otb's don't generate many new fans. Well-managed ones can certainly sustain interest and service those not close to a track, but it can't compare to seeing horses and races in the flesh for building new fans.

Harper's been running Del Mar for almost 30 years, and everyone that goes there absolutely loves it. I'd say he "gets it" quite well in his part of the business.

forego: You answered the "argument" for us! LOL The fact of the matter is that Del Mar sits right on top of The Pacific Ocean with gorgeous weather and SELLS ITSELF! Its ok to "entertain" in addition to promote horse racing, but if he thinks headbanger rock concerts to kids who could give a rats a$$ less about horse racing promotes our sport he is completely missing the point. I will give him credit for doing things like "breakfast at Del Mar and "donuts at Del Mar", where fans get a chance to meet the riders, tour the backside and learn about the great sport of thoroughbred racing. That in itself promotes racing more than any of the big dollar "entertainment" events they have there, and yet is almost an afterthought it seems. Joe read my lips: $14 million a day in handle!!!!!!! That's what pays the bills. You are in the gambling business first whether you think so or not:D

Boomer

[foregoforever]

We make each others points, boomman. Del Mar racing sells itself. The trainers like to run their horses there. The horseplayers like to go there. And since they're not owned by Magna or CDI, Del Mar doesn't get into any of these silly signal restrictions like the other tracks. Harper's day-to-day concerns are quite different than anyone else in similar positions at other tracks.

I don't know what the conversion rate is for headbangers to horseplayers. I'm sure it's not high, but then again, with slots, lotteries, etc., the conversion rate of compulsive or recreational gamblers to horseplayers isn't all that high, either.

The fact that Del Mar's entertainment and atmosphere encourages parents to take kids to the track to see the horses isn't a bad thing. And if Del Mar wasn't an attractive tourist spot, you wouldn't see nearly as many articles in signonsandiego and other media about it. Del Mar energizes the whole SoCal racing industry.

Harper's comments struck a nerve only because racing execs at other tracks, who don't have Del Mar's special circumstances, are so screwed up in their priorities.

[SMOO]

It is absolutely beyond comprehension that a GM of a track that averaged 14 million in daily handle last year has the audacity to say that he isn't in the gambling business. I have an idea Joe, make the Del Mar meet non-wagering, sell tickets to the head banger "entertainment" concerts and see how long you're in business.

:ThmbUp:

[boomman]

We make each others points, boomman. Del Mar racing sells itself. The trainers like to run their horses there. The horseplayers like to go there. And since they're not owned by Magna or CDI, Del Mar doesn't get into any of these silly signal restrictions like the other tracks. Harper's day-to-day concerns are quite different than anyone else in similar positions at other tracks.

I don't know what the conversion rate is for headbangers to horseplayers. I'm sure it's not high, but then again, with slots, lotteries, etc., the conversion rate of compulsive or recreational gamblers to horseplayers isn't all that high, either.

The fact that Del Mar's entertainment and atmosphere encourages parents to take kids to the track to see the horses isn't a bad thing. And if Del Mar wasn't an attractive tourist spot, you wouldn't see nearly as many articles in signonsandiego and other media about it. Del Mar energizes the whole SoCal racing industry.

Harper's comments struck a nerve only because racing execs at other tracks, who don't have Del Mar's special circumstances, are so screwed up in their priorities.

Good discussion forego! You have made some solid points!:ThmbUp: And even though you're technically right that Del Mar didn't get into the silly game of withholding their signal, it has been mentioned by Ian Meyers of Premier Turf Club in previous posts here that the simulcast director of Del Mar, Paul Porter, was told by Drew Couto of the TOC to withhold the signal from PTC, so even though Del Mar didn't participate "in the silly games" the TOC did, and kept PTC from receiving Del Mar's signal. And as for this comment by Harper "striking a nerve" you're absolutely right. The last thing we as players need is some well respected exec standing up and re-inforcing what many of these donkeys already think: the player doesn't matter! And when they make a statement like that, that's what they're really saying!

Boomer

[Indulto]

I'd tend not to rip Harper on this. Del Mar is a special, isolated situation. When you're running a mid-summer meet at the ocean with perfect weather, it's a different business than running Aqueduct in the winter. Entertainment, atmosphere and enjoyment are a big piece of Del Mar ... and Saratoga.

And I agree that otb's don't generate many new fans. Well-managed ones can certainly sustain interest and service those not close to a track, but it can't compare to seeing horses and races in the flesh for building new fans.

Harper's been running Del Mar for almost 30 years, and everyone that goes there absolutely loves it. I'd say he "gets it" quite well in his part of the business.… Del Mar racing sells itself. The trainers like to run their horses there. The horseplayers like to go there. And since they're not owned by Magna or CDI, Del Mar doesn't get into any of these silly signal restrictions like the other tracks. Harper's day-to-day concerns are quite different than anyone else in similar positions at other tracks.

I don't know what the conversion rate is for headbangers to horseplayers. I'm sure it's not high, but then again, with slots, lotteries, etc., the conversion rate of compulsive or recreational gamblers to horseplayers isn't all that high, either.

The fact that Del Mar's entertainment and atmosphere encourages parents to take kids to the track to see the horses isn't a bad thing. And if Del Mar wasn't an attractive tourist spot, you wouldn't see nearly as many articles in signonsandiego and other media about it. Del Mar energizes the whole SoCal racing industry.

Harper's comments struck a nerve only because racing execs at other tracks, who don't have Del Mar's special circumstances, are so screwed up in their priorities.ff,
I appreciate your inserting a note of sanity in the midst of our passionate pursuit of player rights.

DMR and SAR are places where the SPORT of racing is still conducted for the ENTERTAINMENT of racing fans. The quality of racing attracts handle from many people who still enjoy the thoroughbred racing experience (though not at other venues or other times of the year), as well as appealing to professional players and other racing regulars.

Posters on horse racing message boards including myself tend to keep firing once the shooting starts, and usually after hearing only one side of the story. I’ve supported NYRA from day one because their warm-weather products were still a proven commodity. I think it’s premature to place the sins of the TOC at the doorstep of DMR.

We supporters of PTC can find much more worthy targets than DMR management right now, but the story could be different next year at this time.

[DJofSD]

We supporters of PTC can find much more worthy targets than DMR management right now, but the story could be different next year at this time.

I agree.

[boomman]

Indulto wrote: I think it’s premature to place the sins of the TOC at the doorstep of DMR.

We supporters of PTC can find much more worthy targets than DMR management right now, but the story could be different next year at this time.

Indulto: I think overall that we agree on this problem and what is needed to fix it. And I certainly agree with you that keeping things real and sane is the way to do it. But it is an absolute fact that the TOC kept CARF from sending the signals for the California Fairs to PTC and intervened when Del Mar was going to send PTC the signal. Delmar and CARF did not stand up to the TOC on this issue even though they had to know it was wrong and adversely affected handle, so they have to bear some responsibility. Also, we had not said a word about Del Mar management on this issue until Joe Harper speaks up basically "echoing" the type of attitude that has caused the treatment that horseplayers such as us have been receiving overall and thus caused this problem in the first place. As a successful venue, it is MHO that he should be supporting our position, as opposed to adding fuel to the fire.........:ThmbDown:

Boomer

[betovernetcapper]

Wasn't DMR the track that refused to even give PTC an application for the signal? Not the signal itself but the application for the signal.

[boomman]

Wasn't DMR the track that refused to even give PTC an application for the signal? Not the signal itself but the application for the signal.

betovernet: I know that Ian stated that Paul Porter was told by Drew Couto of the TOC not to send the signal to PTC, as for the application, let's direct that question to Ian-Ian your comments? Boomer

[DeanT]

Eghad! This isn't the gambling business?

That statement for a track exec is right up there with "I see no reason why anyone would have a computer in their home" by the DEC chairman in around '75.

[Indulto]

Indulto wrote: I think it’s premature to place the sins of the TOC at the doorstep of DMR.

We supporters of PTC can find much more worthy targets than DMR management right now, but the story could be different next year at this time.

Indulto: I think overall that we agree on this problem and what is needed to fix it. And I certainly agree with you that keeping things real and sane is the way to do it. But it is an absolute fact that the TOC kept CARF from sending the signals for the California Fairs to PTC and intervened when Del Mar was going to send PTC the signal. Delmar and CARF did not stand up to the TOC on this issue even though they had to know it was wrong and adversely affected handle, so they have to bear some responsibility. Also, we had not said a word about Del Mar management on this issue until Joe Harper speaks up basically "echoing" the type of attitude that has caused the treatment that horseplayers such as us have been receiving overall and thus caused this problem in the first place. As a successful venue, it is MHO that he should be supporting our position, as opposed to adding fuel to the fire.........:ThmbDown:

BoomerWhere was it established that DMR was going to give PTC the signal until TOC intervened?

I rember a post here referring to a remark of Harper's regarding "entertainment," but I must have missed any link to the source and would appreciate it if someone could provide it. But let me play devil's advocate first.

Let's say you're a busy racetrack exec trying to get a meeting ready with a new synthetuc surface that hasn't yet been tested in So Cal much less during the hottest temperatures and located right next to the ocean tides.

You probably already can't spare any of your staff's time to do any unnecessary tasks. You know that anybody who is serious about betting Del Mar from home already has a vehicle for doing that. You may or may not know TOC's reasons for blocking this request, but you see no need to jeopardize a long-time working relationship to help a startup company that might experience growing pains that you don't need in the middle of left-coast racing's finest moment. Too me, that sounds like a smart, responsible executive.Del Mar + PTC-Update: The Word for the Day
We have been told today by Del Mar simulcast director Paul Porter that he

"will not be sending us a contract because Drew Couto of the TOC told him not to. Why bother going through the effort when the TOC won't approve it anyway." ...Obviously PTC was frustrated as am I, but even he didn't knock Harper that I can remember. On the eve of having the Jockey Club look at our petition which may even get a few members to read this board, why alienate them by flaming Harper, another old-school colleague?

Keep your eyes on the prize, guys! ;)

[Bruddah]

A Track must create new fans from the young. My favorite and home track, Oaklawn, has for over 50 years, held events for the young during their meet. Initially, these events attracted me to Oaklawn on the weekends. I would meet other young college types, have a few beers, flirt with the girls and make an ocassional $2 bet. They still run these promotions and keep a comparatively high meet attendance. You can go to Oaklawn and see 20k or more young people on a weekend. They recognized long ago how to continue to create fans and keep them.

However, Oaklawn realizes that betting is what drives the wagon and keeps them very profitable. They have also realized they need to mine the resouces of 7 or 8 small Colleges and Universities during Spring Break. As I said this "Annual Right of Passage" has been going on over 50 years. Del Mar is simply using a proven Marketing tool. (JMHO) However, their President/owner? should recognize, you cultivate the young to keep the $$ coming into the facility years later. ;)

[bigmack]

In light of the hypersensitive times we players are living in I can understand a few taking exception with Harper. In all fairness, he was referring to the on-track experience of luring folk via the pageantry of the game. No harm, no foul. Many of us entered the game through our experiences at our local track. This is not an issue that deserves much fuss.

[Maji]

Wrote an email to Delmar's honcho but never got a reply. Sticking to my words, I have not bet a single dime there this year. Maybe it did not hurt them, but I wish if couple of hundred of PA members did not bet there, they will feel some bite, perhaps a little one but a bite nonetheless.

[Indulto]

Well, I found the link at the top of the thread, but it was in low-intensity red which is sometimes hard for me to read when I'm tired and need a nap. ;)

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/delmarraces/20070815-9999-1b15harper.html
Del Mar's leading man
Track chief's candor, down-to-earth manner belie Hollywood roots
By Penni Crabtree

… “Off-track wagering sites don't make new racing fans. You go in and watch a TV – no one cheers; there is no pageantry to the sport.” We wanted to create an atmosphere that made people want to come to the racetrack, not just stay home and bet.”

Harper and his staff set about building up the on-track business, instituting a variety of nonracing activities – including a concert series that has drawn as many as 12,000 fans for a single show, and the One and Only Truly Fabulous Hats Contest, now an opening day tradition.

“This isn't the gambling business. It isn't the restaurant business. This is the entertainment business,” Harper said. “Whenever you put 40,000 people into a facility, you better make them happy, and the only way to do that is to entertain them. If this is supposed to be a guy who's trying to mess with horseplayers, he's sure got me fooled. I stand by what I posted previously. :cool: