The Boycott Strategy

[ponypro]

Ive read many posts with a lot of interest and thought. I see lots of obstacles on getting "organized". Horseplayers are very fragmented as a group and most importantly the "Whales", the people you really need to be effective really protect their privacy. So how do we use the Internet and not get bogged down with bureacracy and privacy.

I woke up in the middle of the night with the answer.

A simple web site is built that collects only one thing.
A Players email address.
You can use a hotmail or yahoo account if you need further privacy, it doesnt matter. The purpose is to have a list of players to mail to on a moments notice of a particular action.

For example a notification might say

On Saturday, we as a group are boycotting XXXXXXX

you are free when notified to join in or decline.

If you had a list of thousands of players and a hand full of Whales you could definetly influence handle and before you know it you are at the bargaining table.
This is very very simple and I am positive it would work. We would be leveraging the Internet without the enormous red tape and time involved in getting organized. Once this list is built an organization would be a natural extension. Do not underestimate the power that the Internet has brought to all kinds of causes.

If PaAdvantage wants to become the default site for the horeplayers voice nationwide, I would be happy to assist in setting this up

Possible Boycott actions could be voted on and decided on the PA board so everyone could be involved.

[DeanT]

That could be the best idea I have heard yet for this type of strategy.

[Indulto]

Ive read many posts with a lot of interest and thought. I see lots of obstacles on getting "organized". Horseplayers are very fragmented as a group and most importantly the "Whales", the people you really need to be effective really protect their privacy. So how do we use the Internet and not get bogged down with bureacracy and privacy. ...Can anyone here identify a single core issue whales and non-whales could agree on that might justify a joint action of any sort?

I can only speculate, but I imagine whales would prefer the status quo. They already command the respect that gets them treated properly and rebating gives them a competitive advantage they would lose if takeout were lowered for all players.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[DeanT]

Can anyone here identify a single core issue whales and non-whales could agree on that might justify a joint action of any sort?

I can only speculate, but I imagine whales would prefer the status quo. They already command the respect that gets them treated properly and rebating gives them a competitive advantage they would lose if takeout were lowered for all players.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Come again?

Have you spoken with whales before?

When rakes are low and all people have equal access to tracks, more money is bet by all. When there is more money bet and the pools are bigger the happier they are. Every whale out there wants rebates and or a low takeout for everyone.

[GameTheory]

Come again?

Have you spoken with whales before?

When rakes are low and all people have equal access to tracks, more money is bet by all. When there is more money bet and the pools are bigger the happier they are. Every whale out there wants rebates and or a low takeout for everyone.That's probably true. The main thing that keeps whales in the U.S. from being bigger whales is that the pools here aren't very big, which severly restricts the amount they can bet. That's why many play in countries like Hong Kong and Japan where the pools are huge. They can be whales there and still not affect the odds to their own detriment.

[Indulto]

Come again?

Have you spoken with whales before?I've never spoken in person to anyone I knew to be a whale which is why I said I could only speculate.When rakes are low and all people have equal access to tracks, more money is bet by all. When there is more money bet and the pools are bigger the happier they are. Every whale out there wants rebates and or a low takeout for everyone.So you contend that most whales would join other horseplayers in calling for lower takeout AND no more rebates and, therefore, that this is core issue #1?

[JustRalph]

Possible Boycott actions could be voted on and decided on the PA board so everyone could be involved.

You realize what you are saying here? Not asking for much are you? :bang: :lol:

[DeanT]

I've never spoken in person to anyone I knew to be a whale which is why I said I could only speculate.So you contend that most whales would join other horseplayers in calling for lower takeout AND no more rebates and, therefore, that this is core issue #1?

Yes, most definitely. If you read what Maury Wolff and Cuscuna say on the matter you can see they feel that way. Barry Meadow has posted here about the volume and action on betfair, where many whales are (equal rakes there at 4%, downwards to 3% for higher volume players, but that is fairly inconsequential). In Six Secrets of Successful Bettors it is touched on as well, I believe, from the gentleman who owned the North Dakota rebate shop.

I currently get a rebate. It does not benefit me for my friend beside me not to have one, one bit. I want everyone to have one. As Gametheory said, people will bet more.

As I mentioned I bet Ellis Park pick 4's. I guess I could get about a 13% rebate on that in 2006, altho I have never played them. I would not play that in that situation. They have $10,000 pools at that rake. Now that they cut the take I get a 19% rebate, just like everyone else, and the pools are 3X that. Why would I want the 13% rebate alone? Makes no sense. I play Ellis Pick 4's every day now.

[Kelso]

I currently get a rebate. It does not benefit me for my friend beside me not to have one, one bit. I want everyone to have one. As Gametheory said, people will bet more.


That sums it up nicely. All bettors, whales and minnows alike, would have a chance at winning rebated money that otherwise would be kept by the tracks/ADWs. Advantage bettors.

[DeanT]

That sums it up nicely. All bettors, whales and minnows alike, would have a chance at winning rebated money that otherwise would be kept by the tracks/ADWs. Advantage bettors.

Honest to gosh true story from a friend/associate of mine who isn't much of a "player". I have no reason not to believe him.

He had $25 left in a Pinnacle account after football season. He bet a couple races, got it up, then down, then up. He busted one day and the next morning his rebate cash of $4 was in the account. That was all he had in the account. He went and won a few races with $2 bets.

He continued to play for six months with $25 all pretty much $2 betting. He said he busted about ten times and the rebate money the next day kept him playing, and his overall volume might have been $5000.


I wish I remembered the story better. He told it much better than I, with some cool detail about being down to his last two bucks a few times and a horse coming in second to cash his place ticket. But I think that tells us that rebates are good for everyone (for those with an account so they can churn, rebates for casual players who will leave the track and go spend cash at Wal Mart are not in our best interests, imo).

[Indulto]

Yes, most definitely. If you read what Maury Wolff and Cuscuna say on the matter you can see they feel that way. Barry Meadow has posted here about the volume and action on betfair, where many whales are (equal rakes there at 4%, downwards to 3% for higher volume players, but that is fairly inconsequential). In Six Secrets of Successful Bettors it is touched on as well, I believe, from the gentleman who owned the North Dakota rebate shop.I read the articles DS provided a link to from the Rebates" thread. It seemed to me that Wolff and Cuscuna were justifying rebates to track operators and NY Times readers as vehicles for EFFECTIVELY lowering takeout to the point where it was profitable for them as investors. It would not have been in their interest to describe in detail the advantage it gave them over non-rebated players. In general, it appears the NTRA Players Panel represents whales and not the majority of horseplayers. Feel free to post contrary quotes from these gentlemen if you are able to locate them.I currently get a rebate. It does not benefit me for my friend beside me not to have one, one bit. I want everyone to have one. As Gametheory said, people will bet more.Players who wouldn't have qualified for rebates should be able to stay in the game longer and churn more, but its not clear to me they would be willing to increase total losses.As I mentioned I bet Ellis Park pick 4's. I guess I could get about a 13% rebate on that in 2006, altho I have never played them. I would not play that in that situation. They have $10,000 pools at that rake. Now that they cut the take I get a 19% rebate, just like everyone else, and the pools are 3X that. Why would I want the 13% rebate alone? Makes no sense. I play Ellis Pick 4's every day now.I didn't understand the bolded portions. Where do you play EIP from to get that high a rebate? Do you currently bet other races there with a rebate?

May I assume you are speaking as a whale (by DragNet's definition anyway), i.e., wagering $1 million annually as opposed to speaking for persons you know to be whales? ;)

[keilan]

For example a notification might say

On Saturday, we as a group are boycotting XXXXXXX

you are free when notified to join in or decline.

If you had a list of thousands of players and a hand full of Whales you could definetly influence handle and before you know it you are at the bargaining table.

If PaAdvantage wants to become the default site for the horseplayers voice nationwide, I would be happy to assist in setting this up

Possible Boycott actions could be voted on and decided on the PA board so everyone could be involved.


I like it :ThmbUp:

Can you imagine the power of one collective voice.......................

[keilan]

You realize what you are saying here? Not asking for much are you? :bang: :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol: Zilly will want his say

[DeanT]

I read the articles DS provided a link to from the Rebates" thread. It seemed to me that Wolff and Cuscuna were justifying rebates to track operators and NY Times readers as vehicles for EFFECTIVELY lowering takeout to the point where it was profitable for them as investors.


That's what it is - lowering take where people make green light bets. Doesnt matter if you are a whale or a minnow, they are showing what lower rakes do - i.e. turn a 5-2 shot that you won't bet, into a 3-1 shot you will. We're all investors.


It would not have been in their interest to describe in detail the advantage it gave them over non-rebated players.

I don't undersand the point you are trying to make here. If everyone gets a lower rake the horse their rebate turned into a 3-1 shot that made them bet, is now 3-1 with reduced rakes. Same stuff, different way of going about things. They still get an $8 payoff. But this time there is more money in the pools, so it is even better for them. Maury Wolff wrote a white paper on reducing rakes for everyone. I don't know where that is. Maybe on the web somewhere. I think the reason that you find them speaking of rebates only, is because it is right now the only thing out there for horseplayers to take advantage of.

I guarantee you they are for takeout reductions. If your ROI has a pulse, a 19% reduction on take out at ELP is better than any rebate out there they or anyone else can get.


Where do you play EIP from to get that high a rebate? Do you currently bet other races there with a rebate?

May I assume you are speaking as a whale (by DragNet's definition anyway), i.e., wagering $1 million annually as opposed to speaking for persons you know to be whales? ;)

I put a post up and hope people can look at the merits, or boneheadness of what I have to say on the issues. Please forgive me, or flame if you must, but I don't think it is productive for me to give personal information on numbers or things like that.

Having said that I will give you equal respect to take what I say on that issue with a grain of salt, or a grain of nothing at all.

[Indulto]

... I put a post up and hope people can look at the merits, or boneheadness of what I have to say on the issues. Please forgive me, or flame if you must, but I don't think it is productive for me to give personal information on numbers or things like that.

Having said that I will give you equal respect to take what I say on that issue with a grain of salt, or a grain of nothing at all.No problem. You asked me if I had spoken with whales before so I assumed that meant you had or were one. ;)

That said, I would still like to hear from someone who admits to being a rebated whale who will state they would be satisfied to go with lowered takeout everywhere in lieu of rebates and why they are willing to do so.

BTW you didn't specify any other core issues of mutual benefit for both whales and non-whales. :bang:

[DeanT]

I hope someone everyone knows comes on and says something. It would add a lot.

I don't know what you mean. I thought I specified how if everyone gets a rebate it turns fair odds 5-2 shots into 3-1 green light bets we can all make money on if our handicapping is right. Now I am going :bang:

:D

Bottom line for me is this: We are all eligible for a rebate right now. The $2 or $200 bettor. It is a bigger rebate than Ernie Dahlman or anyone else can get anywhere, or has ever gotten in this game - 19% on payoffs, which is almost 200% greater than the five dimes rebate, and blows away IRG which reserved for whales. It's the Ellis Park win 4. I can't believe that people who get upset about rebates are not joining the party. This thing should be 100K+ a day, imo. It is the best bet in the history of pari-mutuel wagering.

PS: Back on the rails I do beleive that this can be a core issue to make the game better: A new business model. 20% rakes across the board, and a 10% rebate on all wagers for anyone who is a member of the "club" i.e. has an account at a track or ADW. All tracks have the same pricing. And all customers get the same benefit if they are true horseplayers. Casual fans can pay full rakes and subsidize the players. They dont care what they pay and are not price sensitive like us.

[Indulto]

... PS: Back on the rails I do beleive that this can be a core issue to make the game better: A new business model. 20% rakes across the board, and a 10% rebate on all wagers for anyone who is a member of the "club" i.e. has an account at a track or ADW. All tracks have the same pricing. And all customers get the same benefit if they are true horseplayers. Casual fans can pay full rakes and subsidize the players. They dont care what they pay and are not price sensitive like us.I'm not sure I even want to hear your definition of "true horseplayer," but you've just supported my contention that rebated players enjoy a competitive advantage over casual players at least, who -- price-INSENSITIVE though they may be -- are staying away from the track in droves.

[Cangamble]

I hope someone everyone knows comes on and says something. It would add a lot.

I don't know what you mean. I thought I specified how if everyone gets a rebate it turns fair odds 5-2 shots into 3-1 green light bets we can all make money on if our handicapping is right. Now I am going :bang:

:D

Bottom line for me is this: We are all eligible for a rebate right now. The $2 or $200 bettor. It is a bigger rebate than Ernie Dahlman or anyone else can get anywhere, or has ever gotten in this game - 19% on payoffs, which is almost 200% greater than the five dimes rebate, and blows away IRG which reserved for whales. It's the Ellis Park win 4. I can't believe that people who get upset about rebates are not joining the party. This thing should be 100K+ a day, imo. It is the best bet in the history of pari-mutuel wagering.

PS: Back on the rails I do beleive that this can be a core issue to make the game better: A new business model. 20% rakes across the board, and a 10% rebate on all wagers for anyone who is a member of the "club" i.e. has an account at a track or ADW. All tracks have the same pricing. And all customers get the same benefit if they are true horseplayers. Casual fans can pay full rakes and subsidize the players. They dont care what they pay and are not price sensitive like us.

I'd be happy with an industry 10-12% takeout across the board and no rebates. That is the way it should be. It would pretty much keep all the offshore money onshore, and people in general bet what they can bet. Most bettors will bet more, and the tracks bottom line will be up.

[DeanT]

I'd be happy with an industry 10-12% takeout across the board and no rebates. That is the way it should be. It would pretty much keep all the offshore money onshore, and people in general bet what they can bet. Most bettors will bet more, and the tracks bottom line will be up.

I'd take it. I think wagering (over time) would explode!

But I think the industry would make more overall cash if they discretionary price. It is like selling season tickets to a Patriots game for $1500, and then selling luxury boxes for $4M that seat six. There are people who play lotteries at 75% rakes. Those once a year fans can afford to support purses more because a) they dont care what the rake is and b) they dont support racing and are just out for a day out. That is my contention.

Indulto read the above dude. I don't want special treatment for a "whale", I want people who churn (ie bet once a week and take the game seriously) to get the benefit because economically it makes sense - and it does not matter if we bet $5 a day or $5000 a day, same rate for all! We will bet around 5X as much, because we will sink it back in the pool. The casual fan will take the money home and spend it. It has nothing to do with special treatment for a big player, it is about a mix of spend to maximize revenue to the business! That allows us to bet bigger fields and have better racing to grow the sport!

Just to be clear: a 10% rake for everyone versus a 10% rebatre for Joe Blow? A ten rake is highly preferable. I would like to hear from anyone who disagrees with that and their reasons why.

[Indulto]

It was not my intention to turn this into another rebate thread, only to demonstrate there are dividing issues to be reconciled in order to move forward.

Getting back to the suggestion that the PA board is a good choice as a communication center is validated by PA's abiltiy to more than triple existing petition signatures from under 100 to over 300 from 4000+ members (who apparently don't read the board regularly) by e-mailing them was impressive.

The signature drive also demonstrates that an online petition is itself viable and allows for anonymous participation on the part of both the sources and the target of the "signatures."

Well done, PA. :ThmbUp:

[betovernetcapper]

There is a must read article in todays Bloodhorse.

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40242

[ponypro]

Congrats on Bloodhorse article. Thats Huge

[The Judge]

Some of us still like to go to the track and we are getting scalped. In general I think its a good idea. We could have pickets at a track or two to get some publicity. It doesn't have to be an all day thing just until the 2nd or 3rd race hand out leaflets etc.

[betovernetcapper]

Judge, I have a standing offer of a 6 pack of LaBatts if you want to pass out some flyers at Woodbine. :)

[The Judge]

Did picket at Baymeadows back in the 80's and handed out leaflets there were pickets here and in southern cal. If you weren't going to picket we asked that you were a blue shirt. Alots of blue shirts that day cars honking etc very exciting day.

We were protesting the $5 exacta and other things. Picketed outside parking lot handed out leaflets inside. It was a success.

[Imriledup]

No problem. You asked me if I had spoken with whales before so I assumed that meant you had or were one. ;)

That said, I would still like to hear from someone who admits to being a rebated whale who will state they would be satisfied to go with lowered takeout everywhere in lieu of rebates and why they are willing to do so.

BTW you didn't specify any other core issues of mutual benefit for both whales and non-whales. :bang:

I guess the benefit of a rebate vs a lowered takeout is that if the whale bets into the lower takeout pool, his competition might be greater just because smarter people bet races and tracks with lower takeout and smarter people in general are better handicappers. When Hialeah raised their takeout to astronomical rates before they went out of business my first thought was of anger and boycott. Than, i thought to myself, "could there possible be ONE smart person who's betting Hialeah?" So, the low takeout might be the opposite of Hialeah's high rake in that the bettors are SMARTER, therefore, the whale might be better off betting into the normal takeout and getting the rebate.

Also, another factor is that i'd have to imagine a whale who gets used to a rebate of a certain amount would see a 'hit' in his rebate if he bet the Ellis pick 4. Sure, that lower rebate would be made up by higher prices, but when you are used to a certain amount being given back as a rebate, you dont' want that number to go down.

[betovernetcapper]

We were protesting the $5 exacta and other things. Picketed outside parking lot handed out leaflets inside. It was a success.

I haven't thought about the $5 exacta in years. I think FG had it for a season. It made it pretty rough for smaller players to compete at all in those pools. What moron thought that up? And did they really need a protest to learn this was a dumb idea? It was the same kind of Crapnet forward thinking that has led us to signal wars. :mad:

[The Judge]

We had to force them to make more money by lowering the bet. Go figure! I could only think they didn't want us in line ordering tickets.

[betovernetcapper]

Now they don't want us on-line ordering tickets :)

[Indulto]

Now they don't want us on-line ordering tickets :):lol:
And they think our demands are out of line. ;)

[betovernetcapper]

If anyone has any free time today, you might want to drop a line about the petition to these guys.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/contactUs.asp

.

[shanta]

If anyone has any free time today, you might want to drop a line about the petition to these guys.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/contactUs.asp

.

Done.
Sent 3 emails "Bet". Good work man.
Richie

[betovernetcapper]

Great Shanta, but we must remember these are old guys and we don't want to disturb their slumber-so I must request that no one else click on the link provided below and tell them about the petition

http://www.jockeyclub.com/contactUs.asp

[betchatoo]

Damn. I misread your post and sent them another letter before I realized they shouldn't be disturbed.

[skate]

You realize what you are saying here? Not asking for much are you? :bang: :lol:


Are your saying that hes saying something not said by him?

[betovernetcapper]

WTF-I don't know what it is with you guys-these people are trying to sleep :sleeping: -so please do not click on

http://www.jockeyclub.com/contactUs.asp

and tell them about the petition-the Bloodhorse article or how utterly pissed off you are.
.

[Maji]

Darn... I missed your post on them slumbering and send them an email too using that link!

[betovernetcapper]

Maji-you know, now that you mention it I haven't had a response from them. I wonder if they're all right. Maybe someone should check on them at

http://www.jockeyclub.com/contactUs.asp