Premier Turf Club No Longer Accepting Wagers on Woodbine

[Premier Turf Club]

As of today, Premier Turf Club will no longer be permitted to accept wagers on Woodbine races. PTC inadvertently allowed an Ontario resident, Sanny Lee to place a $1 wager on a Woodbine event yesterday. We believe this wager was placed as a result of a hub error, as Ontario residents should not have been permitted access to the Woodbine pools.


While we respect WEG’s decision, we at Premier Turf Club firmly believe in open access of all signals to residents of all countries where internet wagering is permitted. We are naturally quite disappointed that WEG believes all Canadian residents must play only through the Canadian ADW. We feel this lack of choice works against race tracks, horsemen and horse players alike. Further we strongly disagree as to the characterization of this mistake as an “event that undermines the integrity of the game”, and are disappointed at the level of rhetoric WEG chose to use.


We apologize for any inconvenience to our customers and to WEG.

[prospector]

strong rhetoric for a $1 bet...

pressure from others? or more of the same "my track is important" crap..i won't miss them, nor will i bet them thru my brisbet account..somethings not right here..of course, all canadians can still join pinnacle and bet thru them with no benefit going to the track...if ya gotta bet them, do it thru pinnacle..

[cj]

Somehow I think you will survive this tragic loss. :)

[melman]

Ian the ENTIRE racing industry should be taking LESSONS from you on how to run an operation. Instead they worry about a $1.00 bet. Stick with it Ian the real PLAYERS are behind you and your operation.

[parlay]

Don't fret Ian.
WEG are the most backward thinking bunch of inbred
assholes you will ever run into.
Slots have been extremely succesful at Woodbine and
yet sky high takeouts remain.
Yes the Standardbred horseman and breeders are getting well paid persevering with a DEAD GAME, all on the backs of the players. More specifically the thoroughbred players.
The thoroughbred players who will not benefit one
percentage point from the LAUREL experiment.

[Cangamble]

WEG doesn't give a crap about their customers. As predicted, they didn't take Laurel today and probably won't for the entire 10 day meet.
They also jacked up the takeout on Ellis Park win 4's to 25 or 28% (whatever their scam number is).
WEG's mentality is a detriment to horse racing and the players.
They won't get another dime from me after making such strong statement against PTC.

[HorseRun]

sounds like to me, you were "set up".....who the hell makes a $1 bet and how the hell did Woodbine know that this guy was from Ontario

[Indulto]

GBG,
Counting on your fingers, were you? :lol:
sounds like to me, you were "set up".....who the hell makes a $1 bet and how the hell did Woodbine know that this guy was from OntarioWasn't Woodbine, at one time if not now, part of Empire Racing Associates or FONYR along with MEC and CDI?... We believe this wager was placed as a result of a hub error, as Ontario residents should not have been permitted access to the Woodbine pools.PTC,
Could you be more specific as it seems to me that both your software and the Tote company's software should be checking this. What precautions are taken to ensure players are actually residents of where they say they are and do they have to be betting from within that state/province/country to meet the conditions of your contracts?

Hopefully, people will see this for what it appears to be

[Premier Turf Club]

sounds like to me, you were "set up".....who the hell makes a $1 bet and how the hell did Woodbine know that this guy was from Ontario

Sean Pinsonneault of Woodbine Entertainment Group twice applied for accounts in his own name, the first time within two weeks of signing the simulcast contract, the second about one month later using his email address at Woodbine. Our customer service center declined them citing unverifiable information. Mr. Lee applied for an account 2 weeks ago and had never funded his account so it wasn't listed as a "live" account on our internal databse. He was able to wager using the "lucky" $1 we place in every new customer's account as a sign of goodwill.

[DJofSD]

after thinking about this came up with only one proper response. woodbine

Suff, are you using a different handle now?

[Premier Turf Club]

Could you be more specific as it seems to me that both your software and the Tote company's software should be checking this. What precautions are taken to ensure players are actually residents of where they say they are and do they have to be betting from within that state/province/country to meet the conditions of your contracts?

Hopefully, people will see this for what it appears to be

All state lockouts have to be done on the tote end. We can't control that with our software, it's where every ADW does it.

As far as verifying residency, we subscribe to a verification service www.verificationbureau.com. Every account application is run against this database to verify SS#, age, residency as well as screen for anyone on the OFAC terror list. If we can't match the information, we don't open the account. As far as where they actually bet from, we have strict rules in our Terms & Conditions about possible criminal penalties from placing wagers from racetrack facilities or states where it is illegal. We do our utmost to make sure people comply, but of course I'm sure there are people that agree to comply with the account wagering terms but do not always. Every ADW has the same limitation. We try our best, but things happen sometimes.

[HorseRun]

well who cares about those dirty bastards at Woodbine, but you may want to get rid of that $1 Welcome, as no offense its not much of a Welcome and that $1 that you welcomed that jackasses account with, cost you the contract

[finfan]

Why did WEG even sign the contract in the first place if they were hellbent on nullifying it??? It's either childish, moronic, assinine, idiotic, immature or all the above.

Ian, were negotiations normal with these clowns? Did you have any indication they would pull this garbage?

[Premier Turf Club]

Well if you'd consider the fact that we begged to take the signal and the rate they charged meant we made literally nothing on WPS and they berated me on the phone about the evils of rebating, yeah I guess that should have been a tip off. Certainly the fact that Mr. Pinsonneault kept applying for accounts in his name using his Woodbine e-mail address seemed odd. Honest to God, we took it as an accomodation for our players. I thought they might like the racing.

Again, we already apologized for the screw-up. There seem to be a lot in the industry that are looking for anything at all to discredit us. What's that about no good deed going unpunished...

[Indulto]

All state lockouts have to be done on the tote end. We can't control that with our software, it's where every ADW does it.

As far as verifying residency, we subscribe to a verification service www.verificationbureau.com. Every account application is run against this database to verify SS#, age, residency as well as screen for anyone on the OFAC terror list. If we can't match the information, we don't open the account. As far as where they actually bet from, we have strict rules in our Terms & Conditions about possible criminal penalties from placing wagers from racetrack facilities or states where it is illegal. We do our utmost to make sure people comply, but of course I'm sure there are people that agree to comply with the account wagering terms but do not always. Every ADW has the same limitation. We try our best, but things happen sometimes.
PTC,
Isn't your Tote company contractually obligated to protect it's client ADWs from this sort of thing?

It seems you may have to enforce that agreement to comply yourselves before other unfriendly aliens try to cross it.;) Are IP addresses logged with each wager as well as the ADW's ID?

Does verification include credit and/or background checks other than OFAC? Does your company get access to details or is it just a pass/fail response from the verifiying bureau(s)?

As usual, a good deed didn't go unpunished, but don't give up on the idea of your warm welcome gesture.:ThmbUp:

[LaughAndBeMerry]

Woodbine is very concerned about integrity. From the NY report here are there partners in Empire Racing. You can see why the one dollar bet is such a big deal.

According to The Wall Street Journal (May 11, 2007), officials of Magna International, Inc., a Canadian auto parts maker, and Oleg Deripaska, a Russian aluminum magnate, announced a plan in which Mr. Deripaska would purchase a $1.54 billion stake in Magna. United States law enforcement officials suspect Mr. Deripaska of having ties to Russian organized crime. Deripaska’s visa to travel to the United States was canceled last year because of Washington’s legal concerns. The sale would give Deripaska significant control of Magna, giving him the right to nominate six of Magna’s fourteen Board members, the same number as are nominated by the Stronach family that currently controls Magna.


In the late 1990s, the Ontario Jockey Club provided a simulcast feed to World Gaming Services, Inc. (WGS), a rebate shop based in Anitgua, West Indies and a wholly owned subsidiary of Starnet Communications International, Inc. based in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Starnet began business in 1996 as a provider of Internet pornography and, in 1997, branched out into gaming and gaming technology. It obtained a gaming license from the Government of Anitgua and operated gaming websites through WGS. In April 1997, WGS obtained a simulcast feed from Woodbine Racetrack. In August 1999, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, together with U.S. Customs and IRS agents, raided Starnet’s offices and the homes of its principals, pursuant to an investigation into illegal gambling and child pornography.


Additional discrepancies were also discovered with Empire. For example, one individual, Michael Dubb, has as many as 46 separate active lawsuits that he did not disclose but were later discovered during this integrity review. Dubb, also failed to disclose his racing or gaming licenses. While not included in his questionnaire, investigation revealed that he was issued a license by the New York State Racing and Wagering Board in February 2005. Moreover, his Racing Application History Report set out that a racing claim slip held by him was found to be invalid for the reason that “the signature [on the claim slip] was not Mr. Dubb’s.”


Scientific Games Holding Corp. did not reveal that a recent joint investigation by the FBI, the IRS and the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation resulted in an October 2006 conviction of Scientific Games Vice President Alan Middleton for state lobbying law violations. Also convicted were North Carolina’s Speaker of the House, a former aide to the Speaker, and a member of the state’s Lottery Commission. Scientific Games also failed to disclose, as was later discovered by this integrity review, that it was involved in a federal litigation matter involving the company’s affiliates. In addition, approximately 100 state litigation matters involving affiliates of Scientific Games were discovered. None of these were disclosed by Scientific Games in its questionnaire.

Additional undisclosed domestic and foreign litigation matters pertaining to Scientific Games and its affiliates were revealed in the Key Person questionnaire of Ira Raphaelson,Vice President, Secretary, and General Counsel of Scientific Games since 2006. According to his questionnaire response, Mr. Raphaelson is a member of Empire’s Board of Managers (though he holds no ownership interest) and a member of its Integrity Task Force. In his questionnaire, however, Mr. Raphaelson omitted two items. Raphaelson failed to disclose that he had received a subpoena to testify in a 2003 federal
case in Nevada. When asked why he had not included this information in his
questionnaire response, Mr. Raphaelson stated that it had “slipped his mind.” He also did not disclose a recent civil lawsuit suit in which he was named as a defendant.


Records of the Superior Court of Ontario, from 2002 to the present,
revealed 55 civil suits in which Woodbine Entertainment Group was either a plaintiff or defendant. Scientific Games (or its affiliates) were involved in approximately 150 federal or state civil actions, as well as numerous regulatory matters for equipment or systems failures or other regulatory violations resulting in fines, costs and corrective actions. While civil litigation and regulatory infractions do not necessarily reflect on the integrity of Empire or its members, legal matters pertaining directly to gaming licenses and operation of casinos are identified below.


Magna Entertainment Corp. and/or its subsidiaries have been ordered to pay fines for various violations of law. For example, under an Order dated July 27, 2006, Magna and a number of its subsidiaries were required to pay a fine of $15,000 to the Nevada Gaming Commission. Gulfstream Park Racing Association, Inc., owned and operated by Magna, under a Consent Order dated March 9, 2007, agreed to a fine of $65,000 for underage gambling on the casino floor. Remington Park, Oklahoma, under a Consent Order dated October 19, 2006, and Remington Park, Inc., owned and operated by Magna,
agreed to pay a fine of $2,500 to the Oklahoma Horse Racing Commission for permitting an employee without a gaming occupation license into the gaming facility. Flamboro Downs Holding, Ltd., of Ontario, Canada, also owned and operated by Magna, was initially fined $100,000 (CDN) in 2004 for failure to comply with certain terms of its racing license.


On September 26, 2005, a judgment in the amount of $1,100,000 was entered against Richard Simon and Sez Who Thoroughbreds, Inc. in the 11th Judicial Circuit Court in Miami-Dade County, Florida. According to information provided by Empire, Richard Simon, through his Florida-based thoroughbred breeding and training company, Sez Who Thoroughbreds, Inc., currently owns .68 percent of the outstanding units issued by Empire. CIT Group/Equipment Financing, Inc. is the named creditor for this $1,100,000 judgment, the current status of which is unknown. Records of three federal tax liens between November 5, 2004 and May 23, 2005 in amounts ranging from $71,373 to $7,871,373 were also found.

[Premier Turf Club]

PTC,
Isn't your Tote company contractually obligated to protect it's client ADWs from this sort of thing?

Possibly, but we have such a good relationship with Amtote, we don't make an issue out of it when they err, nor do they when the mistake is on our end.


It seems you may have to enforce that agreement to comply yourselves before other unfriendly aliens try to cross it.;) Are IP addresses logged with each wager as well as the ADW's ID?



IP addresses are not logged with each wager. Could it be done, probably but we have no plans to do it. How would you catch someone playing from a racetrack?

Does verification include credit and/or background checks other than OFAC? Does your company get access to details or is it just a pass/fail response from the verifiying bureau(s)?


NO credit bureau info. We don't want it, and the credit agencies wouldn't supply even if we did. It's not pass/fail, just lists the name associated with a SS# that the applicant provides and lists current and former address and whether or not that person is on the OFAC watch list. We check it against what is provided. Sometimes there is a phone number on the report too, but not often.


As usual, a good deed didn't go unpunished, but don't give up on the idea of your warm welcome gesture.:ThmbUp:

Look, it is what it is. They called this morning, we apologized and said we understood and would immediately disconnect it. Then an hour later they sent a letter. Again, we apologized. Then they put out a press release. We had very little handle on the signal and made nothing on it. To make it like it takes money out of everyone's pocket, it's just absurd if you knew what we paid for the signal. I give back the bulk of my profits to my customers, some tracks charge takes of 28% or more and I'm the bad guy. Go figure.

[JimG]

Ian,

Way over the top for them to refer to you as a "rogue operator". People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Hang in there and no many people here are pulling for you.

Jim

[john del riccio]

Well if you'd consider the fact that we begged to take the signal and the rate they charged meant we made literally nothing on WPS and they berated me on the phone about the evils of rebating, yeah I guess that should have been a tip off. Certainly the fact that Mr. Pinsonneault kept applying for accounts in his name using his Woodbine e-mail address seemed odd. Honest to God, we took it as an accomodation for our players. I thought they might like the racing.

Again, we already apologized for the screw-up. There seem to be a lot in the industry that are looking for anything at all to discredit us. What's that about no good deed going unpunished...

Ian,

You are making me want to change professions....this is sick and I wish there was something we could collectively do to give them what they dished out.

John

[Bob G]

They cut you off because of a $1 bet that one of their executives bet?

It sounds to me like you were set up. Good riddance to Woodbine, their loss.

[Premier Turf Club]

In Februrary of this year we approached Balmoral about getting a simulcast agreement. I spoke to their simul director, Jim Hannon, a really nice guy by the way. We had a few conversations over about a 2 week period and one day he asked me what in his mind was the critical question

Do you accept Illinois residents?


I told him we would though we didn't have any at the present time. Big problem, he said. They wouldn't sell the signal to anyone accepting Illinois residents. Not we couldn't let Illinois residents bet on Balmoral, we couldn't let Illinois residents bet on ANYTHING. I told him truthfully, I couldn't sign that contract because I wasn't going to live up to it.

I then asked about the off-shores where I know for a fact that there are Illinois residents playing (I know a few personally). I said "they have the signal, did they sign the same contract?" He replied that they had. I responded that I thought they had some Illinois customers (like I said I KNEW they did). He confirmed that yes, he was aware of that. I said,"so it's OK that they signed a contract that they have no intention of living up to, but becuase I told you the truth, that we would take Illinois residents my punishment for honesty is we can't get a contract." "Yes, I know," he responded. "You would have been better off lying to me. It's crazy, isn't it."

I swear on a stack of bibles that is a true story.

[Indulto]

Possibly, but we have such a good relationship with Amtote, we don't make an issue out of it when they err, nor do they when the mistake is on our end.

IP addresses are not logged with each wager. Could it be done, probably but we have no plans to do it. How would you catch someone playing from a racetrack?Hopefully the really knowledgable here will chime in, but wouldn't they need to use a local WIFI to bet from a racetrack?NO credit bureau info. We don't want it, and the credit agencies wouldn't supply even if we did. It's not pass/fail, just lists the name associated with a SS# that the applicant provides and lists current and former address and whether or not that person is on the OFAC watch list. We check it against what is provided. Sometimes there is a phone number on the report too, but not often.PTC,
Thank you for sharing all that you have with us. To me this gives your slogan "by - for" some real meat. Frankly, I'm astonished at your public openness, but I guess you really do have nothing to hide.Look, it is what it is. They called this morning, we apologized and said we understood and would immediately disconnect it. Then an hour later they sent a letter. Again, we apologized. Then they put out a press release. We had very little handle on the signal and made nothing on it. To make it like it takes money out of everyone's pocket, it's just absurd if you knew what we paid for the signal. I give back the bulk of my profits to my customers, some tracks charge takes of 28% or more and I'm the bad guy. Go figure.It's clear you really represent a threat to the status quo. Your exposure on this forum must be a source of anxiety. Perhaps PA would share with us to what extent, if any, his traffic has increased since you got here, and how the volume of views to threads in which you contribute relate to those you don't (assuming that's a meaningful measure).

[Premier Turf Club]

Hopefully the really knowledgable here will chime in, but wouldn't they need to use a local WIFI to bet from a racetrack?


You could phone in as well but we only have a handful of players doing that. Costs too much for us and everyone prefers the internet anyway.

PTC,Thank you for sharing all that you have with us. To me this gives your slogan "by - for" some real meat. Frankly, I'm astonished at your public openness, but I guess you really do have nothing to hide.


Honestly, I think I freak out some of my partners when I do that too. What can I say, I am who I am. I don't why so much has to be hidden in this business, well, I guess I do know given the stuff that goes on.

I swear I'm not pandering by saying this, I tell my partners all the time that the guys on this board are smart and can spot bullshit a mile away. If we want people to trust us and take us seriously we can't lie to them. When there's a tote glitch we tell people. If there's a bug in a new release of our code, we tell people. I think part of our "charm" is that horseplayers have gotten so used to be lied to and crapped on it's just refereshing for them to be told the truth.

It's clear you really represent a threat to the status quo. Your exposure on this forum must be a source of anxiety. Perhaps PA would share with us to what extent, if any, his traffic has increased since you got here, and how the volume of views to threads in which you contribute relate to those you don't (assuming that's a meaningful measure).

Sure, the status quo is "you'll buy whatever we're selling and you'll like it, We say we love our customers but none of us ever bets a nickle on a horse and we secretly despise you." There are thankfully exceptions, Ron Geary, Barry Schwartz from NYRA was another, a real friend of the players. Hopefully they'll let us help change the game. All we're asking for is a seat at the table. :)

[BillW]

You could phone in as well but we only have a handful of players doing that. Costs too much for us and everyone prefers the internet anyway.


I use my phone to access the internet from the track and other remote places, for instance now, at the house in Saratoga Spgs. (I promise, I won't wager from the track! - I'm too busy goofing off :D )

Bill

[bigmack]

A complimentary buckaroo rolls through and an immediate press release comes out that includes, "threaten the integrity"?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/8_10_07_18_58_54.jpg

Man, tough gig Ian. When does Allen Funt come out and say "You're on Candid Camera". Oh look, there he is now:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/8_10_07_17_41_02.jpg

[betovernetcapper]

The rebate on WO was nothing special-I think I'll survive. Maybe I could play Stu's track ALB. Yeah I can do that. :)

[Tom]

I wonder if you could SUE them, for intentioinally violating your rules and causing YOU financial hardship? ?Better yet, sue the stinking bastard personally?

FWIT.....I am now boycotting Canada. No more bets on FE ow WO. They can kiss my bacon. WO pretty much sucks these days anyway. They ruined the track - and I mean ruined it - when they put in the slot macines - really destroyod the people part of the track.

[NoCal Boy]

Unbelievable Ian. You were apparently set up and then this statement comes out all but accusing PTC of being a rogue operator threatening the integrity of the game. Very disturbing this is over a $1 wager from an executive at WEG.

As I am sure you are aware, this could have other ramifications. It does not stretch the imagination that domestic states could use this as a reason to deny PTC signals or licenses.

[BIG49010]

Woodbine should worry about the lost revenue to Betfair, if the people of Canada have half a brain they will send their money overseas.

[gillenr]

Is the dirtbag's name pronounced "piss on all"?

[Tom]

Time to FLOOD WEG with emails expressing our opinions of the low life things that crawl around their corporate headquarters.

[Premier Turf Club]

Unbelievable Ian. You were apparently set up and then this statement comes out all but accusing PTC of being a rogue operator threatening the integrity of the game. Very disturbing this is over a $1 wager from an executive at WEG.

I know we were set-up. As I said, Mr. Pinnsoneault applied for accounts himself, which we declined because we could not verify the information he provided. So then he has a mole apply and wager the $1 (we provide when you open the account) just so he can grandstand.

We work with many other tracks. Sometimes there are mistakes, some on their end, some on ours. They send us a settlement statement and miscalculate what they owe us, they cash our payment check twice (we once paid a track invoice twice by mistake) and take 45 days to reimburse us. We don't release a statement calling them rogue racetracks and accuse them of trying to cheat us out of our money. Stuff happens. We've had problems with Amtote, they are very hard working and very diligent but things can happen. I don't release a public statement and accuse them of being a rogue tote.

This is the equivalent of getting a ticket for having low tire tread. You NEVER get a citation for that unless the police want you for something much more serious, or you are rude to an officer that stops you for speeding. I don't recall seeing a release like that when the off-shores were cut-off for being named in a federal indictment (Uvari money laundering).

I trust that most will see this for what it is. Those that don't probably had an agenda to begin with, and I'll work even harder to win them over. :)

[GoBabyGo]

Time to FLOOD WEG with emails expressing our opinions of the low life things that crawl around their corporate headquarters.

great idea.i am in. why stop at weg. why not bury tracknet, cdi, meca. give the signals to everyone sorry ian cant leave it at just you. who the hell funds the game anyway. they feed us sh*t but were the dumb ones that just take it. why dont we tell them all the stick it.

[Kelso]

Mr. Lee applied for an account 2 weeks ago and had never funded his account so it wasn't listed as a "live" account on our internal databse. He was able to wager using the "lucky" $1 we place in every new customer's account as a sign of goodwill.


Since that ass-lick Lee was using your money, I don't see how HE placed a bet. He just picked a horse. YOUR money went into the pool.

[swetyejohn]

Sounds like breach of contract to me.

[PaceAdvantage]

A complimentary buckaroo rolls through and an immediate press release comes out that includes, "threaten the integrity"?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/8_10_07_18_58_54.jpg

Man, tough gig Ian. When does Allen Funt come out and say "You're on Candid Camera". Oh look, there he is now:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/8_10_07_17_41_02.jpg


Wow. This really is a shocking turn of events (but if you have been paying attention to what Ian has been saying all along about this industry, it really shouldn't be a surprise at all).

So this Pinsonneault guy makes several unsuccessful attempts to bust through your security and then has the balls to issue this statement?

"We acted in good faith with Premier Turf Club and they demonstrated just the opposite.

ACTED IN GOOD FAITH? ON WHAT PLANET?

Then, they call you POACHERS!!! Sorry, but I have to laugh at the absurdity of this all.

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/ojcdis.asp?LI=YES&ACT=DIS&SEC=TBN&ART=1186770267978&DTSR=01%2F01%2F2007%5E12%2F31%2F2008+23%3A59

Ian, I hope you have an appropriate response planned for this bullshit.

Any other upstart, and a minor mistake such as this would have simply been excused as "growing pains." Someone clearly has it out for you, but who knew their reach extended from the Great White North?

Wow.

[betovernetcapper]

Looked up the word rogue and one of the definintions is an animal that has seperated itself from the herd. PTC has seperated itself from the herd from day one and should wear the term rogue with honor. Considering the filth of the herd to ramin in lock step should be viewed as shamfull.

[bigmack]

Someone clearly has it out for you, but who knew their reach extended from the Great White North?
It was revealed that Da Facts is J. Curtis Linnell with TRPB, a Canadian, who has on several occasions expressed his firm opposition to rebates.
Woodbine is a member track with TRPB and we now know their point man on this capper is Sean Pinsonneault, a Canadian.

As Ian pointed out in their pitch to Woodbine: we begged to take the signal and the rate they charged meant we made literally nothing on WPS and they berated me on the phone about the evils of rebating, yeah I guess that should have been a tip off.

Both Linnell & Pinsonneault appeared together in a 2005 symposium and several other gatherings together since then:
Sean Pinsonneault
http://cals.arizona.edu/rtip/Symposium/2005/05_transcripts/05thurs/international_simulcasting.pdf
J. Curtis Linnell
http://cals.arizona.edu/rtip/Symposium/2005/05_transcripts/05wed/perspectives_wagering.pdf

Interesting chatter of late from a few around these parts about how rebates are compromising the integrity of the parimutuel structure.

Clearly, peculiar things are astir and wagons are circling.

A buck went through from Ont and they Pinsonneault released that venomous press release? Wagons can circle from both sides.

[cj]

Outstanding work Mack.

These guys seem to think we NEED racing. While I love the game, I can just as easily play golf and tennis instead and go to other sports. Racing needs guys like you and me, we don't need them.

This I know for sure, any attempt that forces me to play at pre-rebate levels will not succeed. I just won't play. They can get a percentage of what I bet now, or get a bigger percentage of nothing.

This is by far the most ass backwards industry in the world. I can't imagine anything even close.

[trying2win]

Time to FLOOD WEG with emails expressing our opinions of the low life things that crawl around their corporate headquarters.

Thank you Tom for the reminder. Okay...I've walked the talk again. Hopefully PA members won't just 'think about doing the same'...but actually take ACTION and send their opinions of WEG to them. I just sent an email to WEG. Here's a copy of what I sent them:

"Hello:

I just read a press release from some of the WEG flunkeys and their unfair denigration of PREMIER TURF CLUB. Talk about sleazy, underhanded tactics to justify cancelling a contract with an above-board ADW company like PTC. These WEG flunkeys should hang their heads in shame.

I'm a customer at PTC and make the occasional bet through HORSEPLAYER INTERACTIVE as well. However, after finding out about these low-down tactics of WEG, I'll be looking into sending my WOODBINE/MOHAWK harness bets through an offshore racebook now. And I'll tell all my horseplayer friends to shun WEG, and your cheapskate, two-bit betting outfit called HPI. I'll advise these friends to wager somewhere else,where the betting companies have scruples, and actually have generous cash rewards and superior customer service (such as PREMIER TURF CLUB has, and WEG does not appear to have these virtues).

May WEG go bankrupt in the near future.

I wouldn't be surprised now if WEG cancels my HPI account, because WEG can't take honest criticism. It wouldn't bother me."

-------------------------------------------------------------------
~“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
- Edmund Burke

[bigmack]

This is by far the most ass backwards industry in the world. I can't imagine anything even close.
On a side note: Never question the respect I have for the amount of brain you bring to this game cj. You're a giant.

Can you believe this nonsense? I will NEVER push another NICKLE into Woodbine. This whole situation has become revolting. Where do they think the dough (their salaries, et al.) comes from?

Ian is a stand-up guy and these suits try and pull this? I don't think they realize the power of our spread. They will in time.

[swetyejohn]

Maybe a letter to the editor of DRF is in order?

[swetyejohn]

This whole Woodbine fiasco kind of lends credence to Ed Bain's claims.

(pardon the pun).

But seriously, if it's true, what does that say about some people in this business. Ian and others implied that I was naive for thinking more than 50% where honest. Damn, maybe you're right?

Where is the integrity? How can players trust that the betting pools are honest when we can't even be sure the people running the pools are honest.

This is no way to run a business. Are they really this desperate? Any shred of goodwill and trustworthiness they had may have been lost over a single $1 bet -- that didn't even come from their own pocket! How ironic is that?!

[Indulto]

It was revealed that Da Facts is J. Curtis Linnell with TRPB, a Canadian, who has on several occasions expressed his firm opposition to rebates.
Woodbine is a member track with TRPB and we now know their point man on this capper is Sean Pinsonneault, a Canadian.

... Both Linnell & Pinsonneault appeared together in a 2005 symposium and several other gatherings together since then:

... A buck went through from Ont and they Pinsonneault released that venomous press release? Wagons can circle from both sides.BgM,

What CJ said – outstanding! :ThmbUp:

I guess it isn’t much of a reach to conclude that the rigged, rugged northern exposure was payback for frying a little Canadian bacon on this board. :ThmbDown:

I just did another Google search to see if any real press had picked up this important wagering integrity story, but still no news other than the WEG press release; henceforth to be known as the infamous international wagering WEGgie. ;)

JMO but I think this Keystone Kop behavior is going to backfire and will wind up giving the entire industry a black eye. Thanks to Inspector Clouseau’s kissing cousins, reasonable people could lose confidence in the competency of the management of all tracks in preventing chicanery.

[cj]

It was revealed that Da Facts is J. Curtis Linnell with TRPB, a Canadian, who has on several occasions expressed his firm opposition to rebates.
Woodbine is a member track with TRPB and we now know their point man on this capper is Sean Pinsonneault, a Canadian.

As Ian pointed out in their pitch to Woodbine: we begged to take the signal and the rate they charged meant we made literally nothing on WPS and they berated me on the phone about the evils of rebating, yeah I guess that should have been a tip off.

Both Linnell & Pinsonneault appeared together in a 2005 symposium and several other gatherings ...

Boy, it sure must be a coincedence this all happened after Pinsonneault's buddy Linnell, aka DaFacts, was basically made to look like the dope he is and exposed while trying to hide his identity, eh?

The sad thing is even though I get a much better rebate elsewhere on WO, since Ian carried the signal, I was betting it with PTC just to support him. Back to Woodbine not seeing a dime of my money. I feel like I've reached a new Pinnacle with this post. :p

[Indulto]

... if it's true, what does that say about some people in this business. Ian and others implied that I was naive for thinking more than 50% where honest. Damn, maybe you're right?

Where is the integrity? How can players trust that the betting pools are honest when we can't even be sure the people running the pools are honest.

This is no way to run a business. Are they really this desperate? Any shred of goodwill and trustworthiness they had may have been lost over a single $1 bet -- that didn't even come from their own pocket! How ironic is that?!SJ,
Obviously we were having the same thought at the same time, except that it struck me as MORONIC. ;)

[Hosshead]

Just curious..... are Stronach and Pinsonneault, or other powers at WO, (Canadian) buddies ?
Could the "set up" have been a "favor" ?

[Cangamble]

Feel free to read my latest post on my blog:
Woodbine doesn't give a rat's ass about the bettor
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2007/08/woodbine-doesnt-give-rats-ass-about.html

[Spendabuck85]

Although I'm not a PTC member, I will no longer bet on Woodbine. Not that they will miss my small bets, it will make me feel better.

[Tom]

Thank you Tom for the reminder. Okay...I've walked the talk again. Hopefully PA members won't just 'think about doing the same'...but actually take ACTION and send their opinions of WEG to them. I just sent an email to WEG. Here's a copy of what I sent them:


I sent them 100 emails, but all were only two words.:eek:

[swetyejohn]

I think I'll send them a one word email --- "NAFTA".

[DeanT]

FWIT.....I am now boycotting Canada.

Ya, well I am boycotting Canandaigua. So take that! :D

Woodbine (for locals) as Cangamble seems to note in his blog, have been a head-scratcher. If you read the harness tracks of America conference, or the other industry conferences posted, its Chairman seems to have been all over the map on all of these issues. The "OJC" as it was once called, was a perfect example of an old school monopoly, and that thinking has rarely changed, all the while the world has changed around them.

As recently as last year (might have been the year before), they quietly raised their rakes on win 4's. I completely lost respect for anything they did at that time. They were starting to see wagering declines (which they, like most tracks without an answer blamed on offshore wagering). These declines have continued. Their on track product (as is witnessed on this thread) does not garner any respect from the masses, and since the bigger gamblers have seen rising prices (what business would raise prices when their demand is falling?) they have lost respect for them too.

When Ian said that he got an earful from them about rebates being "evil", I had to laugh. They rebate. HPI can give up to 3% on some wagers (including an amount on any track they cover). That is a rebate, yet somehow they are evil when someone else does it? It is the ultimate hypocrisy, imo, and it exemplifies to perfection that they lack the leadership, brains and passion to succeed in the 2007 wagering market. JMO.

[ddog]

A small example, until I started with PTC, I had never played even as much as the free 1 dollar PTC gave them and really never had any interest to start there.

In the 20 days or so after I started with PTC I had wagered around 7500.00 on their product.
Certainly, nothing Woodbine will miss or would care about at that level.

But, I was starting to get interested in a few categories of races and a couple of trainer patterns,etc. So, that was leading to more research on how to make something on those patterns and then , of course, more wagers to follow.

Well, that's all been deleted from my systems.
How does that benefit them or anyone in the long run? :confused:

Finally, in any business it's common to give the guy on the other side a chance to work through issues before you blast away in public.
Sounds like this was not the case here?

If true, then I must ask ...

Sean Pinsonneault ...... Have You NO Shame , Sir?

[Cangamble]

I didn't know they jacked the Win 4 take back up. They forgot to tell the patrons.

I wonder if the CPMA is OK with the collusion, or even if the collusion is legal.
Woodbine signs contracts where others can't take Canadian clients, on the promise that Woodbine doesn't take American clients. This is not law, this is an anti-competitive practice.
So lets say that Brisbet takes Canadian clients now, Woodbine can't take American clients because of other deals they have in place with Youbet, etc. But they will refuse to give Brisbet their signal. Who cares? Now with the recent legislation that doesn't make Canadians have to withhold a dime, Canadians would flock to Brisbet, etc just to be able to bet on Laurel and their low takeouts for example.
Here is CPMA's web site: http://www.agr.gc.ca/csb/cpma-acpm/index_e.php?page=cpma-acpm

I'm not going to call, but it would be interesting to see what they say.

[DeanT]

I didn't know they jacked the Win 4 take back up. They forgot to tell the patrons.

From hbpa.com and archives. The story: Woodbine: 'All' button crucial on inscrutable Polytrack 10/26/2006 5:55:06 PM - Daily Racing Form

Those who play the Win Four, Woodbine's version of the pick four, have had to tolerate a substantial increase in the takeout on the popular bet. Several years ago, Woodbine lowered the takeout for Win Four bets on live racing from 25 percent to 14.75 percent, but then raised it back to 25 percent at the beginning of this meeting.

I think Ron Geary would be fired if he worked there. That's ok, I am sure he would find other work. It's not like he isn't a success in life. The cynic in me wonders if he would have even been hired in the first place.

[dylbert]

Let's bring home US troops from Iraq and invade Woodbine!

It appears biggest threat to Canadian horse racing is its leadership. Without US bettors, how long will their industry survive?

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" as stated by George Santayana. How many US NHL franchises once thrived in Canada? No US franchise has moved north. NBA and MLB have token representation in Toronto, and have retreated from Vancouver and Montreal, respectively.

First, the bettors will retreat. Then, the stallions and broodmares will leave. Canada's best young jockey, Emma-Jayne Wilson rode successfully at Fair Grounds last winter. She was excellent addition to US racing scene. Who's next?

Canadian businesses such as Woodbine need US patrons to survive. The reverse is not true.

I will keep reading this thread. The discussion has been great and what makes this board a must read for me every day.

[rrbauer]

Mr. Lee applied for an account 2 weeks ago and had never funded his account so it wasn't listed as a "live" account on our internal databse. He was able to wager using the "lucky" $1 we place in every new customer's account as a sign of goodwill.

Not taking sides on this issue, but from this info it sounds like this guy Lee slipped thru the cracks at PTC. He provided an "Ontario" address and that got by somebody in the PTC organization? And if he had funded his account? Wasn't the horse out of the barn by then? And why is it a hub issue? He opened an account at PTC. He placed a bet via the PTC system.

I agree that the guy at WO, given the nature of the transaction, went postal on PTC.... and certainly smacks of an agenda chaser.

And, BTW if you want to email the top dog at Woodbine, here's his address:

David Willmot <DSWillmot@woodbineentertainment.com>

[swetyejohn]

I agree that the guy at WO, given the nature of the transaction, went postal on PTC.... and certainly smacks of an agenda chaser.


Also, he probably has a lot of pressure from upper management to be vigilant on this stuff. Sean P is taking the heat, but it may not be entirely his doing. I don't know all the facts, so it's hard to say.

One thing for sure, there needs to be better communication between all the parties in this industry and the horseplayers need a voice.

Horseplayers are customers. Is anyone listening to the customer -- you know, the one who is always right.

[Zman179]

Sean Pinsonneault's conduct was reprehensible and entirely unprofessional. His attitude, as well as that of WEG, is even more proof that some racetracks do not care about their customers.

Even though I am not an account holder at PTC, I will NEVER place another cent on a race at Woodbine or Mohawk again. There are too many different racetracks out there to wager on without having to give my business to such a despicable outfit.

[melman]

I agree Zman179 a great post. Time to move on from WEG and give other tracks that want my business the action.

[GameTheory]

I sent my 2 cents to Woodbine (which is about as much as they will value my opinion, I'm sure).

But if they do respond to this issue won't they just say, "Of course we did what we did -- we were TESTING the integrity of the PTC system to see if it would prevent Canadians from wagering at Woodbine and PTC failed."

rrbauer,

It is not as issue of opening an account from Canada -- it is a matter of a Canadian betting on a Canadian track. And it is a hub issue. For instance, I'm in Colorado, and for some unknown reason I'm not allowed to bet on Charles Town and Penn National. My ADW that carries those tracks is BetPad.com, an AmericaTab affliate. (My account was transferred from Brisbet when CDI bought them because regulatory reviews or something with certain states were not done.) I called them up and asked why I couldn't bet at those tracks and they (America Tab) HAD NO IDEA. They transferred me to some woman at the Oregon hub who checked it out (I was being blocked at the hub) and she verified that in fact Colorado residents cannot bet on CT or PEN. No one has been able to tell me why, but the point is it is the hub that does the blocking, not the ADW itself. (I would also like to point out that this woman at the Oregon hub -- Peggy something the wagering supervisor -- was super helpful and sympathetic. So there are some good people out there.)

[swetyejohn]

Even though I am not an account holder at PTC, I will NEVER place another cent on a race at Woodbine or Mohawk again.

Let's check their handle numbers to see if wagering goes down.

Unless of course, they follow the industry's current best practices of not publishing handle numbers.

[Premier Turf Club]

And why is it a hub issue? He opened an account at PTC. He placed a bet via the PTC system.

I agree that the guy at WO, given the nature of the transaction, went postal on PTC.... and certainly smacks of an agenda chaser.

And, BTW if you want to email the top dog at Woodbine, here's his address:

David Willmot <DSWillmot@woodbineentertainment.com>



Richard:

It is the hub that locks out tracks based on zip codes/states, etc. We do not have the capability to do that on our end. The accounts aren't housed on our system. Nobody does, they are located on the tote operators system. Every ADW has a “community" on their particular tote that defines his group of accounts and any restrictions placed on them. We just have a fancy accounting system built around it.

We apologized over and over. Ultimately, we need to make sure things are coded right. We didn't deny responsibility. We deal with tote issues every day. It's not the first time something like this has ever happened in this business, and it won't be the last. The usual procedure is the track asks you to look into it and fix it if it's wrong. They don't typically issue press releases.

I think the real issue is why some people in this business are rooting so hard for us to fail (even trying to help us along) when we have the support of many of the industry's customers. I don't understand the logic of any business refusing to give the customers what they want

[Zman179]

It is not as issue of opening an account from Canada -- it is a matter of a Canadian betting on a Canadian track. And it is a hub issue. For instance, I'm in Colorado, and for some unknown reason I'm not allowed to bet on Charles Town and Penn National. My ADW that carries those tracks is BetPad.com, an AmericaTab affliate. (My account was transferred from Brisbet when CDI bought them because regulatory reviews or something with certain states were not done.) I called them up and asked why I couldn't bet at those tracks and they (America Tab) HAD NO IDEA. They transferred me to some woman at the Oregon hub who checked it out (I was being blocked at the hub) and she verified that in fact Colorado residents cannot bet on CT or PEN. No one has been able to tell me why, but the point is it is the hub that does the blocking, not the ADW itself. (I would also like to point out that this woman at the Oregon hub -- Peggy something the wagering supervisor -- was super helpful and sympathetic. So there are some good people out there.)

It is probably because Penn National Gaming, proprietor of Penn National Race Course and the Charles Town Races, is also the owner of the Bullwhackers Casino in Black Rock, Colorado. The restriction might have come down from the Colorado Division of Gaming.

[Cangamble]

I left a comment on Jennifer Morrison's blog. She too reported the new release by WEG: http://jen-thoroughbreds.blogspot.com/

She moderates comments, so if you comment there, it might not show up for a few hours.

She gets around 250 visitors a day, mostly Canadians, and she gets Woodbine suck asses who post comments too (probably Woodbine execs). She also gets trainers and owners who visit her blog as well.

She is an independent professional racetrack journalist, but obviously is restricted to what she can say because of Woodbine's bulliness. She is as critical as she can be.

The racetrack is the type of place that you can't be too critical if that is your beat. You won't be able to get anyone else to talk to if you say too much.

If you look at the sidebar of mine or Jennifer's blog, you will see an advert for Premier Turf Club, as they are donating monthly to the Thoroughbred Bloggers Alliance (we are both members). That money gets donated to help out with retired horses.

Woodbine isn't an advertiser. If they were, I would drop out from the alliance.

[Premier Turf Club]

I sent my 2 cents to Woodbine (which is about as much as they will value my opinion, I'm sure).

But if they do respond to this issue won't they just say, "Of course we did what we did -- we were TESTING the integrity of the PTC system to see if it would prevent Canadians from wagering at Woodbine and PTC failed."

We are a start-up with 4 months of internet life. Amtote has NEVER taken on as ambitious an ADW project as we have given them. They will tell you so. They were very patient while we drove each other crazy during the time we were building the interface. There were problems, there still are, there is with any software.

But to talk about concern about the integrity of the pools when CJ's Dad is posting about people making wagers after the gates open, it seems like a bit of an over reaction. We would have worked with them, we work with all the tracks and they work with us. Sometimes the mistakes are on our end, believe me there are many of them made by the tracks and tote as well. They are always worked out. We send them too much money, or not enough, we don't get the right pool info or will pays. We make mistakes sometimes that impact our players, we work on them until everbody is happy. Sometimes players will call us about an issue and it will turn out that they were in error. We don't hold that against them They are our partners in this.

If WEG didn't want to be a partner, they should have said so. I try not to do business with people that I think are setting us up.

[DeanT]

Let's bring home US troops from Iraq and invade Woodbine!


Enter the west (horseplayer) entrance. There will be little resistance.

Stay away from the north (slots) entrance. 1,400 70 year old ladies with slot cards connected to spring strings can be deadly as they will be wielded with laser-like precision. They don't like when you mess with their slots.

[cj's dad]

Ian, I'm not a lawyer ( I can actually vote ) but this sounds like entrapment to me.

Bust their balls !! ;)

[Zman179]

According to dictionary.com, one of the results given for "entrapment" is:

To lure into performing a previously or otherwise uncontemplated illegal act.

If I were you Ian, I would strongly consider legal action not only for entrapment, but for defamation as a result of WEG's slanderous press release.

[GameTheory]

It is probably because Penn National Gaming, proprietor of Penn National Race Course and the Charles Town Races, is also the owner of the Bullwhackers Casino in Black Rock, Colorado. The restriction might have come down from the Colorado Division of Gaming.No doubt. Thanks for info.

[Maji]

Sean Pinsonneault of Woodbine Entertainment Group twice applied for accounts in his own name, the first time within two weeks of signing the simulcast contract, the second about one month later using his email address at Woodbine. Our customer service center declined them citing unverifiable information. Mr. Lee applied for an account 2 weeks ago and had never funded his account so it wasn't listed as a "live" account on our internal databse. He was able to wager using the "lucky" $1 we place in every new customer's account as a sign of goodwill.

Sounds like freakin' setup job to me. Maybe time to talk to your lawyers, Ian.

Good luck and I hope those morons choke in their own filth... unfortunately they are killing the game with themselves. :mad:

[Tom]

Let's check their handle numbers to see if wagering goes down.

Unless of course, they follow the industry's current best practices of not publishing handle numbers.

Given WEG's total lack of integrity, why would anyone assume they would not lie about numbers? There is little incentive to tell the truth when you live in slime like WEG does. And DATS DA FACT.

[ceejay]

Woodbine's loss.

[rrbauer]

I think that I understand that the hub should've blocked the transaction
because the customer was a Canadian placing a bet into a Canadian pool.
Right?

So what is the hub saying about its failure to block the transaction?

I've done this IT stuff since long before I had gray hair and if done right this kind of stuff just doesn't happen. So I feel that there's more to the story than what's on the surface here. (To be honest, I really don't care because I'm not and never have been a Woodbine player and I'm not a PTC customer; but, something stinks and it needs more than some Glade to cover it up.)

[Premier Turf Club]

I think that I understand that the hub should've blocked the transaction
because the customer was a Canadian placing a bet into a Canadian pool.
Right?

So what is the hub saying about its failure to block the transaction?

I've done this IT stuff since long before I had gray hair and if done right this kind of stuff just doesn't happen. So I feel that there's more to the story than what's on the surface here. (To be honest, I really don't care because I'm not and never have been a Woodbine player and I'm not a PTC customer; but, something stinks and it needs more than some Glade to cover it up.)

Richard:

It was a goof plain and simple. Amtote has a lot of customers, it happens. Not just with us, not just with blocking zips or states. We have been working with them for months to try and straighten out everyday issues, something that you think would take no time at all. Like one day we have a track linked, the next day we don't, things like that. There isn't anyway on our end to see if a state is locked out, that's something they see on the tote end. Neither of us knew this was an issue until the $1 was bet. They didn't know they hadn't coded it, I didn't know they hadn't coded. We're a start-up, we have just 5 of us working full time, in addition to tellers to cover EVERYTHING; technology, customer service, marketing, simulcasting ops, etc. Similarly the guys at the hub work very hard, and let's be honest, we are not a big customer. Had WEG simply pointed this out to us we would have told Amtote again to fix it.

OK, mea culpa, it's their signal and they have the right to pull it. But ask ANYONE in the tote business, stuff happens all the time. It's amazing the system works at all given that the equipment is literally 15 years old in some cases.

The customers account wasn't blocked, it should have been.

[Cangamble]

I'm no lawyer, but I think Woodbine is guilty of violating the Competion Act we have in Canada:

I found this doing a quick internet search. And it appears WEG is guilty of not abiding by it:

Competition Act

The Competition Act is Canada’s antitrust legislation. The purpose of this Act is to maintain and encourage fair competition in Canada. It regulates trade and commerce activities and monitors trade practices. For example, mergers and acquisitions that can reduce competition are often subject to review by the Competition Tribunal. The Act may be conveniently divided into three principal areas: criminal offences, civil offences and merger regulation.

The Competition Bureau is responsible for administration and enforcement of the Competition Act. Its role is to promote and maintain fair competition so that Canadians can benefit from lower prices and product choices.
***************************
A simple violation is that Canadians can't open up accounts to bet on Ellis Park with US ADW's to take advantage of the 4% takeout on Win 4's, but they takeout 25-28% on the Win 4 if a Canadian were to hit it with WEG.

Signing deals which don't let Canadians bet on Laurel to take advantage of the 10% takeout is another.

Signing collusive deals that do not let Canadians in their non rebate areas get rebates from other ADW's. For example, Brisbet recently gave 10 points back on a Friday night.

How am I doing so far?

[LaughAndBeMerry]

The customers account wasn't blocked, it should have been.


You want to ask how something can happen.

How could 3 college kids have fixed the BC Pick 6?

How could they have fixed many other Pick4s and Pick 6s that year without ever getting caught? If any horse other than Volponi wins the BC Classic they pull off the BC Fix 6.

How could it be that CJs Dad can watch people bet after the gates open? In 2007?

Those are questions that we really should have answered.

[Cangamble]

Here is a link to Canada's Competition Act regarding international law:
http://www.globalcompetitionforum.org/n_america.htm#canada

Oh, and I meant to say that Brisbet gave 10% back for Mountaineer bets a couple of Fridays ago.

[Kelso]

Looked up the word rogue and one of the definintions is an animal that has seperated itself from the herd. PTC has seperated itself from the herd from day one and should wear the term rogue with honor. Considering the filth of the herd to ramin in lock step should be viewed as shamfull.

Hey BONC ... maybe "America's Rogue ADW" would work even better for PTC. Whataya think?

[bigmack]

I had a little correspondence with David Willmot, Chairman & CEO of Woodbine Entertainment today in which he stated:

It was a blatant breach of a contract entered into by us in good faith
based upon their assurances and representations. They lied. If that
somehow fits within your definition of integrity, then good riddance to
you.

[betovernetcapper]

Hey BONC ... maybe "America's Rogue ADW" would work even better for PTC. Whataya think?

I love it-Ian is a rouge is the same way that Galileo was :)

[DeanT]

I had a little correspondence with David Willmot, Chairman & CEO of Woodbine Entertainment today in which he stated:

It was a blatant breach of a contract entered into by us in good faith
based upon their assurances and representations. They lied. If that
somehow fits within your definition of integrity, then good riddance to
you.

Classy response by someone to their customers.

It appears Sam Walton he is not.

[Indulto]

I had a little correspondence with David Willmot, Chairman & CEO of Woodbine Entertainment today in which he stated:

It was a blatant breach of a contract entered into by us in good faith
based upon their assurances and representations. They lied. If that
somehow fits within your definition of integrity, then good riddance to
you.BgM,
Was that contact initiated through normal channels or do you have influence that most here don't? :cool:

[DanG]

I sent them 100 emails, but all were only two words.:eek:
Very important aspect…

Please do not underestimate what an individual brings to the table. E-mails / phone calls do influence management’s opinion.

[swetyejohn]

1) The optimal solution is for Woodbine and PTC to work things out. No one benefits from the current scenario.

2) Woodbine's losing a revenue source and goodwill from cutomers and maybe from some vendors, PTC's losing a revenue source, customers' choices are limited and horsemen are losing a revenue source.

3) It sounds like the decision to pull the signal was made out of anger and mistrust.

Woodbine's decision surely had to be based on more than one $1 bet. Surely they did some research and tried to get to the bottom of this before pulling the signal. If not, then they were looking for any excuse to pull the signal. And if they were, then they should have expressed their concerns from the start -- which it sounds like they did based on what I've read here.

Which goes back to point 3). Maybe the signal never should have been offered in the first place if Woodbine had such feelings of uncertainty.

[GameTheory]

1) The optimal solution is for Woodbine and PTC to work things out. No one benefits from the current scenario.

2) Woodbine's losing a revenue source and goodwill from cutomers and maybe from some vendors, PTC's losing a revenue source, customers' choices are limited and horsemen are losing a revenue source.

3) It sounds like the decision to pull the signal was made out of anger and mistrust.

Woodbine's decision surely had to be based on more than one $1 bet. Surely they did some research and tried to get to the bottom of this before pulling the signal. If not, then they were looking for any excuse to pull the signal. And if they were, then they should have expressed their concerns from the start -- which it sounds like they did based on what I've read here.

Which goes back to point 3). Maybe the signal never should have been offered in the first place if Woodbine had such feelings of uncertainty.It appears worse than that, doesn't it? They issued a press release, for christ's sake. This appears to me to have been all engineered before the contract was signed for the sole purpose of grandstanding in public against PTC...

[swetyejohn]

It appears worse than that, doesn't it? They issued a press release, for christ's sake. This appears to me to have been all engineered before the contract was signed for the sole purpose of grandstanding in public against PTC...

It is not logical for WEG to do that. What do they care where their simulcast $$ come from as long as Canadian's don't bet with PTC?

Of course, I don't understand why Canadian's can't bet with a U.S. based company.

If I, a U.S. citizen, want to open up a phone account with HPI or WEG or whoever it is that takes bets in Canada can't I do that?

Isn't that the whole point of the NAFTA?

[GameTheory]

It is not logical for WEG to do that.Are we now assuming racetracks operators do that which is logical? When did they start to do that?

[betovernetcapper]

I had a little correspondence with David Willmot, Chairman & CEO of Woodbine Entertainment today in which he stated:

It was a blatant breach of a contract entered into by us in good faith
based upon their assurances and representations. They lied. If that
somehow fits within your definition of integrity, then good riddance to
you.

I'm not a lawyer, but I reviewed the PTC new account application and noticed that falsification of parts of the application may be a criminal act. I'm going to guess that these criminal acts might be aggravated by committing the criminal acts across international borders. Again I'm not a lawyer, but I think if a criminal act involves 2 or more people it may be a conspiracy. Ian, I urge you to contact the Justice Department.

[Edward DeVere]

Can you believe this nonsense? I will NEVER push another NICKLE into Woodbine.

The problem, of course, with this decision is the same problem one has in deciding not to buy gas from Citgo because of the Venezuelan connection. You're still buying gas from the Arabs, whose rulers are no more honorable in regards to civil rights than Chavez. (For that matter, how honorable are the executives of big oil in America? You gonna stop buying gasoline from EVERYBODY?)

Anyhoo, returning to the Woodbine situation - Regardless of your view on rebates, seems like a) buyer's remorse, or b) pressure from other racetrack owners, or c) a set-up.

As for a lawsuit? I'm afraid Mr. Meyers et al would be ruined financially before they ever saw the inside of a courtroom.

[PaceAdvantage]

An analogy to what happened to PTC would be if Woodbine told the Polytrack folks to "shove off" after Woodbine couldn't get the surface right despite a number of resurfacing operations. (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37271)

I didn't see any press releases from Woodbine calling the Polytrack folks "incompetent" or "rogue resurfacers."

I said it before, and I'll say it again....this is bullshit, and it makes me angry.

[Bruddah]

I submit we start a no bet protest, by the members on this board. I will be the first to say I will no longer play or bet Woodbine's races, until they give Ian another chance. I probably only put a couple of G's a year through their windows. They won't miss my small pittance but with the rest of you pledging your annual bets $$ as a protest, it will quickly mount to something significant.

We all know the tracks monitor this board. Maybe it will amount to enough to catch the attention of Churchill and Magna. As I have gotten older, I don't bet as much, as I once did. As a matter of fact, I have cut back tremendously.

Woodbine approx. $2000 annually. Other tracks during the year approx. $27,500 annually.

I pledge no more action to Woodbine, until they reexamine their actions against Ian and PTC.

Anyone else willing to boycott Woodbine. If so, state your approx. annual bets at Woodbine. :ThmbUp: :jump:

[Cangamble]

It is not logical for WEG to do that. What do they care where their simulcast $$ come from as long as Canadian's don't bet with PTC?

Of course, I don't understand why Canadian's can't bet with a U.S. based company.

If I, a U.S. citizen, want to open up a phone account with HPI or WEG or whoever it is that takes bets in Canada can't I do that?

Isn't that the whole point of the NAFTA?

Part of the collusive deals that WEG sets up with the US hubs/AWDs is that you don't take Canadian customers and they won't take American customers.
Go try to set up an account with HPI. You won't be able to.
The fact you can't breaches all fair trade practices. I'm pretty sure WEG and the US companies are breaking laws.

Maybe WEG was suspicious of PTC because they might have the odd American customer under the table. Just speculation, but you know what they say about suspicious minds.

[BIG49010]

Does the WEG system lockout Canadian's who would be in the U.S. when they try to bet via the internet?

[alydar]

Unless they have changed their policy Americans can set up accounts with Woodbine. I have one. Woodbine also operates all of the other Canadian tracks ADW operations. I am sure that you can aopen an account through one of the other Canadian tracks. You may be in a state that they have a problem with.


As far as Woodbine management goes, well you couldn't put together a bigger bunch of arrogant and provincial bunch of people if you tried. The White House has come close.

They just don't get it. I have seen Wilmot and other from that track complain about rebates. They are primarily a slot operator now anyway. They openly admit that racing is a loser for them.

[Cangamble]

Unless they have changed their policy Americans can set up accounts with Woodbine. I have one. Woodbine also operates all of the other Canadian tracks ADW operations. I am sure that you can aopen an account through one of the other Canadian tracks. You may be in a state that they have a problem with.


As far as Woodbine management goes, well you couldn't put together a bigger bunch of arrogant and provincial bunch of people if you tried. The White House has come close.

They just don't get it. I have seen Wilmot and other from that track complain about rebates. They are primarily a slot operator now anyway. They openly admit that racing is a loser for them.

I agree with you with respect to WEG management. They have zero understanding of the horse player, and they don't care.

Is your account still active? Do you bet through them? Do you get rewards? I think they used to take US customers, and you may have been grandfathered in. I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure that they have deals with US hubs now where they can't take Canadians and visa versa.

On the HPI application form and rules it says only people in their home market can open accounts with them. On the app form it says "province", not province/state.
http://www.horseplayerinteractive.com/join_horseplayer.asp

Maybe an American here can phone them and ask if they can set up an account. I can't see why American companies would sign deals with Woodbine if the collusion wasn't reciprocated.

[Premier Turf Club]

Unless they have changed their policy Americans can set up accounts with Woodbine. I have one.

That's very interesting because Mr. Pinnsoneault make a point of saying that HPI would NOT accept Americans. In fact, he was pretty indignant about it when our Fargo partner asked him.

[betchatoo]

I have sent the following to Mr. WIlmot, head of the Woodbine organization

Dear Mr Wilmot:

Just was made aware of your incident with the Premier Turf Club. As a member and someone who knows Ian to be an honorable man, I am shocked by the treatment and that bogus press release he received. Because of PTC I went from not wagering on Woodbine to putting in $2,000-$3,000 per week. Although I am sure losing this amount will not hurt the racetrack, I am networking with every horse player I know to do likewise. I have also canceled a planned trip to Toronto and the track. Woodbine will never see another penny of my money, nor, if I can influence them, any money from the other players of my acquaintance

Sincerely,

Scott Urban
1704 Lakecliffe Drive
Suite B
Wheaton, Illinois, 60187

[Cangamble]

That's very interesting because Mr. Pinnsoneault make a point of saying that HPI would NOT accept Americans. In fact, he was pretty indignant about it when our Fargo partner asked him.
Maybe Youbet can put out a press release calling WEG a rogue operator :)

[swetyejohn]

That's very interesting because Mr. Pinnsoneault make a point of saying that HPI would NOT accept Americans. In fact, he was pretty indignant about it when our Fargo partner asked him.


Can someone please respond about WEG, ADW and how they are affected by NAFTA, if at all?

[betovernetcapper]

Have arranged to submit a petition to the Jockey Club this week-if interested check out the Jockey Club petition thread.

[betchatoo]

Just got this reply from Woodbine. Ian: how would you like me to answer it?

Dear Scott,
In an era of unprecedented threat to the financial viability of
the pari mutuel distribution system, all legitimate operators have
contracts with each other which we all expect to be honoured. For
example, our HPI account wagering system agrees not to accept bets from
American residents in all our simulcasting contracts with American
racetracks. They do the same in return, as does YouBet, other ADW
operators and so did PTC in its contract with us. We all monitor these
arrangements by attempting to open accounts to ensure that they are
honoured.
One of our employees, using a Toronto address, was able to open
an account with PTC and place a bet on Woodbine. This was a flagrant
breach of our contract which we entered into in good faith based upon
PTC's strong assurances. So why was our press release bogus? We are a
not for profit organization operating in the best interests of horse
racing. Why would we do business with just another unethical pirate
acting not in racing's best interest but out of short term financial
opportunism.
Obviously bettors want to wager at the lowest takeout and we
rebate and have no problem with PTC rebating. But when a so-called
partner breaches our contract by stealing out of our backyard the facts
are what they are. Actions speak louder than words. We honour our
contracts.

[PaceAdvantage]

Are these guys for real? Instead of going to PTC and working with them to fix this problem (they ARE a NEW STARTUP - and a freakin' $1 bet was made), they boot PTC and issue press releases calling them POACHERS and now they refer to them in private communications as PIRATES?!?!??!

WTF is going on here? Did Woodbine kick out Polytrack after Woodbine couldn't get their damned racing surface to WORK after more than ONE ATTEMPT?!?!?!?!

Did they issue press releases calling Polytrack a "rogue resurfacer?"

Seriously, who ARE these people running this business up there in Toronto? Where did they go to business school?

The only conclusion I can draw from this INSANSE back and forth between the US and Canada is that WEG, for whatever reason, either working by themselves, or in concert with another unnamed party, WANTED THIS TO HAPPEN in order to embarrass PTC. There is no other explanation.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh, and by the way, since the folks up in Ontario are so keen on signing up for things on the Internet, I welcome them to sign up here on this site to discuss exactly how this $1 mistake justifies their way-over-the-top reaction.

Why would anyone (especially a brand new company) EVER want to do business with WEG ever again after witnessing this type of Draconian response?

[chickenhead]

Actions speak louder than words.

Horseplayers need to take this to heart.

[Premier Turf Club]

We apologized to WEG immediately for any confusion, and continue to express regret for the circumstances that transpired.

As for the statement that we represent a threat, that we acted only in our own financial interest, we are a start-up with a small base of customers, and as I stated previously we paid an exorbitant rate for the signal, more than twice what is charged most other ADWs and took the signal only as an accommodation to our customers.

Again, we would have been perfectly willing to work through this with WEG but were not given an opportunity to do so.

[Turntime]

I still haven't received a reply to my email to WEG - I can't wait. I agree that the facts point to a clear setup designed to make PTC look bad. Unfortunately there is no way of proving that this was their intent. Maybe someone like Andy Beyer would be interested in looking into this. Just a thought.

[prospector]

Just got this reply from Woodbine. Ian: how would you like me to answer it?

Dear Scott,
In an era of unprecedented threat to the financial viability of
the pari mutuel distribution system, all legitimate operators have
contracts with each other which we all expect to be honoured. For
example, our HPI account wagering system agrees not to accept bets from
American residents in all our simulcasting contracts with American
racetracks. They do the same in return, as does YouBet, other ADW
operators and so did PTC in its contract with us. We all monitor these
arrangements by attempting to open accounts to ensure that they are
honoured.
One of our employees, using a Toronto address, was able to open
an account with PTC and place a bet on Woodbine. This was a flagrant
breach of our contract which we entered into in good faith based upon
PTC's strong assurances. So why was our press release bogus? We are a
not for profit organization operating in the best interests of horse
racing. Why would we do business with just another unethical pirate
acting not in racing's best interest but out of short term financial
opportunism.
Obviously bettors want to wager at the lowest takeout and we
rebate and have no problem with PTC rebating. But when a so-called
partner breaches our contract by stealing out of our backyard the facts
are what they are. Actions speak louder than words. We honour our
contracts.

i would hope that Ian is cooling off before he answers this slander...at the least talking to his states attorney general about damages...Woodbine is very slick with words, but sleazy with actions...
the letter sounds like "we did it..so what?"

[Pace Cap'n]

Either WEG is a "rogue operator", or they are acting in concert with the racing powers that be to discredit and besmirch PTC.

Perhaps a pro-active response is in order, such as issuing your own press release detailing how "an accredited, reputable ADW has been attacked by a foreign entity that has resorted to clandestine activities in it's scurrilous attempts to void a valid contract".

In any event, watch your back, Ian.

[Indulto]

I still haven't received a reply to my email to WEG - I can't wait. I agree that the facts point to a clear setup designed to make PTC look bad. Unfortunately there is no way of proving that this was their intent. Maybe someone like Andy Beyer would be interested in looking into this. Just a thought.Once again I tried Googling news about PTC, and still no word of this action in either the trade press or the mainstream press (only the lone original Standardbred Canada" release from yesterday.)

Hopefully, reporters Matt Hegarty (DRF), Frank Angst (TT), and/or Ryan Conley (B-H) will shine a light on this.

[DeanT]

Are these guys for real? Instead of going to PTC and working with them to fix this problem (they ARE a NEW STARTUP - and a freakin' $1 bet was made), they boot PTC and issue press releases calling them POACHERS and now they refer to them in private communications as PIRATES?!?!??!

WTF is going on here? Did Woodbine kick out Polytrack after Woodbine couldn't get their damned racing surface to WORK after more than ONE ATTEMPT?!?!?!?!

Did they issue press releases calling Polytrack a "rogue resurfacer?"

Seriously, who ARE these people running this business up there in Toronto? Where did they go to business school?

The only conclusion I can draw from this INSANSE back and forth between the US and Canada is that WEG, for whatever reason, either working by themselves, or in concert with another unnamed party, WANTED THIS TO HAPPEN in order to embarrass PTC. There is no other explanation.

Try dealing with them as a player as I do from time to time.

The discussion with them I had about why I can not bet an Ellis Park win 4 at 4% rake was one for the ages.

Imo, they need to clean house there if they want the bettors to have some respect for them. Right now they have slots, and are concentrating on building a hotel - and it shows.

Regardless, I do my part. I had $1.21 in an HPI account recently. I bet a 20 cent super and now my balance is a penny. They choose to not help me and respect me as a customer? I choose to bet my money elsewhere.

[alydar]

That's very interesting because Mr. Pinnsoneault make a point of saying that HPI would NOT accept Americans. In fact, he was pretty indignant about it when our Fargo partner asked him.

I opened the account three years ago. Never really used it. For all I know it is inactive now. I could swear that I have seen banner ads from HPI promoting their web site.

As far as Woodbine goes, it is clear that they never really wanted PTC's business. That seems obvious form the rate they offered and the "test" they did to check them out. To hell with them. If they do not want the handle then don't give it to them.

The reality is that racing is slowly dying. Some people are thinking forward and other looking back. I feel that Woodbine is misguided, time will tell, who survives in the buisness and who thrives. There are some fighting over what they see as a shrinking or stagnant pie of business. There are others that are looking for new avenues to grow the pie. I think it is obvious where Woodbine stands. Goodluck to them.

[parlay]

I have been a patron of this "not for profit" and its
pedecessor OJC for over 45 years. They have never
taken care of the player. I have spoken to Steve Mitchell
many times, he is always available. WEG has been very
vocal about its protectionist policies.
They have jumped through hoops to keep advertising
of offshore bookmakers off the Canadian airwaves.
They have notified ALL ADW organizations that thier
home market is off limits. In their crazy world they somehow own my right to place a bet on any horse race
anywhere in the world. I am not sure how they believe
this to be legal or constitutional, but my guess is that
it has to do with the fact that this CLUB is still the stronghold of the "founders of the commonwealth". Indentured servants, protectionism and patronage are all essential to their success. NOTHING HAS REALLY CHANGED IN CANADA.

[nativenova]

I am a resident of Toronto and frequent Woodbine on a regular basis,I am what they consider a VIP member, to obtain this status I have to wager a minimum of $250,000 in a full calendar year,through their HPI player interactive betting account, for this I receive every three months
2- free Buffets value $ 60.00
5-$5 food vouchers
5-free preferred parking
5-free telethreatres programs (which I once tried to obtain for a friend @Woodbine ,customer service said they are only valid at an OTB,they call champions teletheatre)

I have tried to open an accout with any USA outifit,but have been always denied because I live in Canada,I did once have an account with Penn National,but that was closed after they stopped accepting Canadian residents,due to Woodbine wanting a monopoly on wagering in Canada.

I have had other issues with Woodbine in the past,but when I hear what they have done to PTC,is shocking but I am not surprised,WEG is very lucky they have slots at the track,otherwise it would be a ghost town and they would have to rely heavly on revenues from their simulcast,thus this is where the players come into play,they have to realize if not for us they would not exist!and all this for tricking someone into a $1 bet! Needless to say I will be contacting Woodbine on this matter ,will it get us anywhere I doubt it,but maybe they will reconsider ,issue an apology to PTC and reinstate them,even if they were to reinstate them I think the damage has been done already.
I will keep you posted as to me contacting Woodbine.

in closing a note to Scott,if you do not mind who responded to your message?you can PM if you wish not to name them on this forum.


Good Luck to all

Regards,
MIke

[foregoforever]

Indentured servants, protectionism and patronage are all essential to their success. NOTHING HAS REALLY CHANGED IN CANADA.

It's not much different in the US. Last I heard, New Jersey residents could only wager through their state-controlled outlets, and many other states have restrictions and similar trade barriers. When I place a wager, the horsemen's association in my state is somehow entitled to a cut, for reasons I've never understood.

The undercurrent in all this is that the industry treats all of us as mindless commodities with no respect for our wishes to make our own decisions on where to bet and through whom to bet. We're all just sinners in their eyes.

And the problem with that is that the normal free market incentives to provide good service are all lost due to the protectionism. Adam Smith's invisible hands are tied behind his back.

[bigmack]

After having several exchanges with the CEO it's become clear that their main objection was that a Canadian was able to open an account. It was their plant and it went through thus questioning how many others went through that weren't planted. They have less interest in the wager being placed than of the account being opened.

Arguably, it was a snafu and their public reaction has been dramatic. It's a shame that it happened but I suspect Ian is well poised for it not to happen again.

[Our Boy Chuck]

I knew 'em when. If it weren't for the slots they would have been out of business years ago. They treat their customers like dirt and they think they own them.

Never liked the polycrap anyhow so it's easy to put 'em on my boycott list. I don't recognize the game I love anymore just so messed up.

[GoBabyGo]

it has to do with the fact that this CLUB is still the stronghold of the "founders of the commonwealth". Indentured servants, protectionism and patronage are all essential to their success. NOTHING HAS REALLY CHANGED IN CANADA.

weg what a joke. all these tracks are trying real hard to keep ptc out. this is bullshit let us decide for ptc or anyone else. never play wo again.

[betchatoo]

in closing a note to Scott,if you do not mind who responded to your message?you can PM if you wish not to name them on this forum.


Good Luck to all

Regards,
MIke

I did answer your PM, but if anyone is interested it was David Willmott who sent me the reply

[Cangamble]

Dear Scott,
In an era of unprecedented threat to the financial viability of
the pari mutuel distribution system, all legitimate operators have
contracts with each other which we all expect to be honoured. For
example, our HPI account wagering system agrees not to accept bets from
American residents in all our simulcasting contracts with American
racetracks. They do the same in return, as does YouBet, other ADW
operators and so did PTC in its contract with us. We all monitor these
arrangements by attempting to open accounts to ensure that they are
honoured.
*********************************************
This is admitted collusion that is completely anti-competitive for the bettor.


One of our employees, using a Toronto address, was able to open
an account with PTC and place a bet on Woodbine. This was a flagrant
breach of our contract which we entered into in good faith based upon
PTC's strong assurances. So why was our press release bogus? We are a
not for profit organization operating in the best interests of horse
racing. Why would we do business with just another unethical pirate
acting not in racing's best interest but out of short term financial
opportunism.
******************************
I wonder how many American customers are in WEG's books. I know they fudge things first hand.

Obviously bettors want to wager at the lowest takeout and we
rebate and have no problem with PTC rebating.
********************************
Yeah, but the Canadian bettors can't get the best deals you unethical idiot.


But when a so-called
partner breaches our contract by stealing out of our backyard the facts
are what they are. Actions speak louder than words. We honour our
contracts.
************************************
You honour your collusive anti-competive agreements. Isn't that what fines and jails are for?

[prospector]

strictly an afterthough, but, isn't PTC now allowed to pick up all the accounts from Canada they want for other tracks..
i'd be advertising is his backyard or at least giving away PTC tshirts or hats to people going on track...but then, i always like to get even..:mad:

[Cangamble]

strictly an afterthough, but, isn't PTC now allowed to pick up all the accounts from Canada they want for other tracks..
i'd be advertising is his backyard or at least giving away PTC tshirts or hats to people going on track...but then, i always like to get even..:mad:
PTC was allowed to take Canadians before they signed up with Woodbine.
So I guess now, they can sign up Canadians left right and center.
As far as wearing PTC T shirts, Woodbine would probably kick anyone wearing them off their property. When you are a monopoly you can do that kind of crap.

I like one of the lines in their HPI application. They can terminate an account for any reason whatsoever.

Woodbine would be the darling of any police state.

Oh, and non profit? I love that one. I'm thinking Willmot probably makes around 750k a year. That number rings a bell.

[Kelso]

reply from Woodbine.
Why would we do business with just another unethical pirate acting not in racing's best interest but out ofshort term financial opportunism.


OPPORTUNISM?!?!? It was PTC's f'n dollar!!!!!

[nvemil]

Dear Scott,
In an era of unprecedented threat to the financial viability of
the pari mutuel distribution system, all legitimate operators have
contracts with each other which we all expect to be honoured. For
example, our HPI account wagering system agrees not to accept bets from
American residents in all our simulcasting contracts with American
racetracks. They do the same in return, as does YouBet, other ADW
operators and so did PTC in its contract with us. We all monitor these
arrangements by attempting to open accounts to ensure that they are
honoured.
*********************************************
This is admitted collusion that is completely anti-competitive for the bettor.


One of our employees, using a Toronto address, was able to open
an account with PTC and place a bet on Woodbine. This was a flagrant
breach of our contract which we entered into in good faith based upon
PTC's strong assurances. So why was our press release bogus? We are a
not for profit organization operating in the best interests of horse
racing. Why would we do business with just another unethical pirate
acting not in racing's best interest but out of short term financial
opportunism.
******************************
I wonder how many American customers are in WEG's books. I know they fudge things first hand.

Obviously bettors want to wager at the lowest takeout and we
rebate and have no problem with PTC rebating.
********************************
Yeah, but the Canadian bettors can't get the best deals you unethical idiot.


But when a so-called
partner breaches our contract by stealing out of our backyard the facts
are what they are. Actions speak louder than words. We honour our
contracts.
************************************
You honour your collusive anti-competive agreements. Isn't that what fines and jails are for?

First post here and it was this topic that brings it on.

I want to preface this by saying if lived in a state that was allowed to use PTC, every single dollar bet at home would be through that site. I can find a track or two to assimilate even if the track menu was half it's current size. Being in a dry internet racing state is what led me to Woodbine six years ago, got the phone account and was thrilled to be able to bet from home. At that time all pools were seperate, I'd say weekend win pools at major tracks were anywhere from 25k-100k just depending on the race. Then they went to internet and was known as HPI. During all that time I focused on Woodbine and the Alberta tracks and bet it a lot.

Since then two major things occurred: They pretty much became the ADW for every single major CDN track except for a couple (more on that later). The second thing that occurred was they finally got together with the U.S. and stared signing states or vice-versa to get the pools merged. This is when the collusion took place. Almost immediately after my first dollar touched these pools WEG announced they were no longer going to accept U.S. customers. After 5 years I felt a little pissed off, I called and they explained that was due the way the contracts were to allow the merged pools. It is my guess is that the U.S ADW's screamed that this would enable U.S bettors to open up a WEG account and bet say....Pick 6's through Canada. (Remember, they don't tax racing winnings as long as you can prove you don't professionially bet for a living...not hard) I am not a 2 dollar bettor nor a whale but I told WEG on the phone that it's hard to understand how you complain the loudest about off-shore and rebates and then with no notice shut down long standing accounts. They say "Well, you still have a WEG account, you just can not wager." That is the mindset with these folks. Their head guy is the loudest moaner about unfair competion but yet all you have to do is see all the posts to see how hypocritical and uniformed he is.

For what it is worth you can open accounts in Canada from the U.S. at two different tracks that operate their own ADW's. One is phone only and their menu mirrors WEG's. This particular track even had on their website all winter that internet wagering was "coming soon". They pumped it up saying Derby Day would be their target date. By April that was off the website. On Derby Day I asked a operator there what was happening with internet wagering. I heard the supervisor say in background and I heard it clearly...."We are not allowed to discuss that subject." The other track has phone/internet betting but my state unlike the first track I mentioned will not take my state. I mention this to add to the list of options, I am not against Pinny or Betfair but at least with those two sites the horsemen get the money. Of course those two are not an option for me any more.

What WEG did was nothing less than a stunt.....a thought out stunt. They think they are on a island.

[DeanT]

Wow, nice first post! I think my first was telling Tom I was boycotting his home town. :)

Well done. I can tell you are telling the truth, too. I am (was) an HPI customer and that hits home. :confused:

[spilparc]

I don't pretend to understand all of the politics involved in the racing industry. Obviously, they are many. But I do know a hypocrite when I see one.

This sounds like a story for 60 minutes. Just think how bad they would make this guy look. Expose this rat bastard pissmeoff or whatever his name is, and go to every press agecny that you can think of. Get the REAL word out about what this asshat really did.

I'm disgusted by this guy's behavior. What people think they can get away with amazes me. But if the word doesn't get out to the major media (who probably doesn't much care, but what the hell) then he WILL have gotten away with it.

If somoeone could provide the appropriate e-mail addresses for the powers that be, I'll giv'em a piece of my mind.

This kind of "horsecrap" along with the usurious rakes and the antiquidated philosophy of the horse racing industry has got to stop.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the final straw. It's time to draw a line in the sand.

Enough is enough.

[trying2win]

Here's the photos of the WEG management team, all the way from head honcho DAVID WILL NOT...er DAVID WILLMOT to TOM VALIQUETTE:

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/corporate/management_team.html


--Keep sending those emails through the contact page at the WEG website, to the management team. Let them know what you think of their treatment of PTC. Give your views on what they should do with regards to rewards for customers, track selection, and general customer serivice.
Here's their home page:

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/qct/default.asp

--Until a lot of those connected with the horse racing industry wake up and get a paradigm shift away from their SCARCITY MENTALITY, a lot of them will continue to suffer losses on the bottom line of their businesses. They will have to let go of their fearful, stingy, self-serving ways if they want to see improvement. One of the key words is GIVING. Hopefully a few lightbulbs will go on.

--By the way, I don't see the other PTC Canadian partner tracks complaining like WEG does with their beloved tracks. The enlightened management at the other Canadian tracks seem to be real possibility thinkers, who have a PROSPERITY CONSCIOUSNESS and welcome the extra revenue brought by the wagers from PTC'S customers. Now that's the mindset to have to increase your bottom line!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~"Once you train yourself to begin the process of being thankful for everyone and everything that comes your way, as well as being appreciative of your very humanity, you are on your way toward eliminating a scarcity mentality."

--Dr.Wayne Dyer

[cj]

Here's the photos of the WEG management team, all the way from head honcho DAVID WILL NOT...er DAVID WILLMOT to TOM VALIQUETTE:

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/corporate/management_team.html

How many of those people do you think have ever placed a bet over $5?

Over/Under is 1.

[LaughAndBeMerry]

Who did what to whom, for $1 bet thing is crazy. WEG is completely over the top. He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

I am not a lawyer but I bet that some things said by WEG management public and private are libelous and actionable. I posted some of this before but maybe WEGs should read the New York integrity report about their Empire partners before making any comments on integrity.


#1 a Canadian company close to bankruptcy with a CEO that is willing to take money from Russian gangsters to save his business.


According to The Wall Street Journal (May 11, 2007), officials of Magna International, Inc., a Canadian auto parts maker, and Oleg Deripaska, a Russian aluminum magnate, announced a plan in which Mr. Deripaska would purchase a $1.54 billion stake in Magna. United States law enforcement officials suspect Mr. Deripaska of having ties to Russian organized crime. Deripaska’s visa to travel to the United States was canceled last year because of Washington’s legal concerns. The sale would give Deripaska significant control of Magna, giving him the right to nominate six of Magna’s fourteen Board members, the same number as are nominated by the Stronach family that currently controls Magna.




#2 Two companies MECA and CHDN with ties to suspected Mexican criminals


For several years, Jorge Hank Rhon, Grupo Caliente’s chief operator and the current mayor of Tijuana, has been suspected by U.S. law enforcement and Mexican authorities of illegal moneylaundering activities related to illicit drug trafficking, particularly with the Arellano Felix drug cartel based in Tijuana. Additionally, Carlos Hank Rhon (Jorge Hank Rhon’s brother) allegedly laundered money for one of Mexico’s former presidents through Laredo National Bancshares of Laredo, Texas, a bank Carlos Hank Rhon partially owned.

At least two gaming regulators have formally made know their concerns about Grupo Caliente and Jorge Hank Rhon. The Nevada Gaming Control Board (NGCB), perhaps the preeminent gaming regulator in the country, has cited Grupo Caliente in three different public hearings relative to the licensing suitability of American Wagering in June 1997, as well as in connection with VirtGame Corp. in October 2002. Essentially, these companies were directed by the NGCB to conclude any contracts with Grupo Caliente and to not renew those contracts. Grupo Caliente’s U.S. representative for simulcasting events in the United States and Mexico, Arturo Alemany Salazar (who operates a company called MIR International), came under similar scrutiny by the Puerto Rico Racing Administration. Mr. Salazar, of San Diego, California, was a recent applicant for licensure with the Puerto Rico Racing Administration, for whom the Administration recommended a finding of “unsuitability.”





#3 Partners with faulty memories

Additional discrepancies were also discovered with Empire. For example, one individual, Michael Dubb, has as many as 46 separate active lawsuits that he did not disclose but were later discovered during this integrity review. Dubb, also failed to disclose his racing or gaming licenses. While not included in his questionnaire, investigation revealed that he was issued a license by the New York State Racing and Wagering Board in February 2005. Moreover, his Racing Application History Report set out that a racing claim slip held by him was found to be invalid for the reason that “the signature [on the claim slip] was not Mr. Dubb’s.”

Scientific Games Holding Corp. did not reveal that a recent joint investigation by the FBI, the IRS and the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation resulted in an October 2006 conviction of Scientific Games Vice President Alan Middleton for state lobbying law violations. Also convicted were North Carolina’s Speaker of the House, a former aide to the Speaker, and a member of the state’s Lottery Commission. Scientific Games also failed to disclose, as was later discovered by this integrity review, that it was involved in a federal litigation matter involving the company’s affiliates. In addition, approximately 100 state litigation matters involving affiliates of Scientific Games were discovered. None of these were disclosed by Scientific Games in its questionnaire.

Additional undisclosed domestic and foreign litigation matters pertaining to Scientific Games and its affiliates were revealed in the Key Person questionnaire of Ira Raphaelson,Vice President, Secretary, and General Counsel of Scientific Games since 2006. According to his questionnaire response, Mr. Raphaelson is a member of Empire’s Board of Managers (though he holds no ownership interest) and a member of its Integrity Task Force. In his questionnaire, however, Mr. Raphaelson omitted two items. Raphaelson failed to disclose that he had received a subpoena to testify in a 2003 federal case in Nevada. When asked why he had not included this information in his questionnaire response, Mr. Raphaelson stated that it had “slipped his mind.” he also did not disclose a recent civil lawsuit suit in which he was named as a defendant.



Then you have some of the partners that WO has had over the years b