Churchill Handle Was ?????

[LaughAndBeMerry]

The numbers must be very good to not want to show them at all. :lol:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/87414.html



Churchill to stop releasing handle figures


Churchill Downs Inc. will no longer release handle and attendance figures at the end of the meets of its four racetracks, the chief executive of the company, Bob Evans, said during a conference call on Wednesday morning.

Evans said the new policy was put in place because Churchill officials believe that handle and attendance figures are no longer "key metrics" and do not properly reflect the performance of the company's operating units.

Almost all racetracks issue handle and attendance figures at the end of a meet , which are compared to the same figures from the meet held the previous year. Handle numbers are used by reporters and financial analysts to gauge the demand for a racetrack's racing signal. Wagering provides the majority of most racetracks' revenues, and is many times the only source of purses for horsemen.

Julie Koenig Loignon, the vice president of communications for Churchill, said following the conference call that Churchill had become concerned that some reporters and financial analysts were giving too much weight to the handle figures to determine the profitability of Churchill's racetracks, and were therefore misinterpreting the health of the company's operating units.

[boomman]

The numbers must be very good to not want to show them at all. :lol:

http://www.drf.com/news/article/87414.html



Churchill to stop releasing handle figures


Churchill Downs Inc. will no longer release handle and attendance figures at the end of the meets of its four racetracks, the chief executive of the company, Bob Evans, said during a conference call on Wednesday morning.

Evans said the new policy was put in place because Churchill officials believe that handle and attendance figures are no longer "key metrics" and do not properly reflect the performance of the company's operating units.

Almost all racetracks issue handle and attendance figures at the end of a meet , which are compared to the same figures from the meet held the previous year. Handle numbers are used by reporters and financial analysts to gauge the demand for a racetrack's racing signal. Wagering provides the majority of most racetracks' revenues, and is many times the only source of purses for horsemen.

Julie Koenig Loignon, the vice president of communications for Churchill, said following the conference call that Churchill had become concerned that some reporters and financial analysts were giving too much weight to the handle figures to determine the profitability of Churchill's racetracks, and were therefore misinterpreting the health of the company's operating units.

They're KIDDING right? Everytime these clowns come out with a stupid statement you think they can't outdo themselves...Then they prove otherwise!! What a joke they and Magna have become!:ThmbDown: There is ONLY ONE reason they don't want to discuss numbers! Hey Mr. Evans, STILL think withholding your signals from PTC is a good idea? Horseplayers have spoken with their wagering (or lack thereof). PLAIN and SIMPLE :mad:

Boomer

[ponypro]

Lets See
1.Your Partner is on the verge of bancrupcy
2.You withold important corporate financial information
3.You take no questions at shareholder meetings

Id say the SEC and Justice Department are at the 1/8th pole and closing fast!

[Bruddah]

Having run companies with a prescense on the stock market, it makes total sense to me, and I have wondered why they didn't take this positon, long before now.

As mentioned in the press release, you have unqualified people (reporters) making value judgments which affect the stock price, especially on a weekly basis. Their finacials should be released quarterly and evaluated by financial experts. Not by folks wondering whose running in the next race and where's my Free corn beef sandwich. This being said, they (Churchill) should report on same store (tracks) sales (revenues) for the quarter. The information reported at the close of each meet definitely has a negative effect on stock value and can effect it for an entire quarter or more.

Just a different slant. (JMHO) :)

[Premier Turf Club]

Right, wrong or indiffrent, I think it's safe to say the handle numbers must not have been strong. I have had senior positions in public companies as well. We never refused to reveal good results.

On the other hand, with the signal wars, every day is Christmas for the off-shore bookmakers.

[NoCal Boy]

The arrogance of Churchill will be the eventual undoing of TrackNet as we know it now. Signal fees will go up and tracks will get more. However, it is crystal clear TrackNet is designed solely for Magna and Churchill, and the latter seems to be teetering on the brink.


TVG and Youbet each reported 4-5% increases in handle in Q2 despite not having the Kentucky Derby and TrackNet content for the most part. Does anyone hear truly believe that a non-Churchill or Magna track will voluntarily join Tracknet and restrict access to their signal?

I wonder what the new owners of Ellis Park feel about Tracknet when they look at their handle declines?

Isn't it common sense to simply open up access to all willing to pay the 7-8% for signals on premier tracks? No one is advocating that the tracks should only get 3-3.5% that TVG currently pays as a host fee for most of its content. If PTC and Youbet agree topay the 7-8%, then give them the signal.

I am never surprised by Magna, but I would have though Churchill would be more proactive. Simply amazing.

The circus that is Magna comes to town with their financial results tomorrow night followed by a CC on Friday morning. Now that should be entertaining.

[NoCal Boy]

correction...Magna seems to be teetering on the brink. Churchill is arrogant, but not teetering in any manner.

[HorseRun]

YOUBET is a bigger joke than Churchill....Those liars are running UBET into ground and they just are happy to blame TVG, Tracknet and everyone but themselves as they keep cashing their bloated paychecks

[Premier Turf Club]

If PTC and Youbet agree to pay the 7-8%, then give them the signal.

We have said it privately, and I will go on record here, we will pay whatever rates the off-shore rebate shop pay. My understanding is on premium signals like CD and GP that is 7-8%. We have absolutely no problem with that. I think those numbers can work for everyone, the tracks, the horsemen, us and the players.

[HorseRun]

I hope Magna , never goes out of business, i look forward to each year, when that idiot Stronach makes a trophy presentation and mangles it so bad its uncomfortable....now thats entertainment !!

[NoCal Boy]

Don't know about bloated salaries and the like, but the handle numbers for both TVG and Youbet were about 5% higher than last year without the Tracknet tracks. All I am advocating is there shoud be access to all if they are willing to pay the going rate. This goes for Tracknet tracks and TVG tracks as well. Apparently, the going rate is 7-8% for the premium tracks. Wouldn't the horsemen be that much further ahead if PTC and Youbet paid 7-8% for the premium signals instead of being left out in the cold due to the actions of TVG?

Didn't the Louisiana HBPA head just announce they are going to do something with Youbet and Fair Grounds?

The horsemen will force this issue in the end as they control the signal. The TOC will likely do the same with SA and GG. Florida might with Gulfstream now that Magna has made a financial mess of that situation with far underperforming slots.

[Premier Turf Club]

Wouldn't the horsemen be that much further ahead if PTC and Youbet paid 7-8% for the premium signals instead of being left out in the cold due to the actions of TVG?

Ignore for a minute that we have a dog in this fight. I don't understand how witholding the signal from any ADW helps ANYONE, tracks, horsemen or players.

If someone has a legitimate argument otherwise I would love to hear it.

[HorseRun]

they dont owe you anything....thats the only argument that matters....i hate Tracknet, Think Magna has a moron in charge and i would love to be able to go one place, the best place i as a customer believes gives me the best service/product/rebate to watch ALL races..... but nonetheless Youbet, PTC and others have NO right to expect an entity to give then access just because you can make money off of them....that would be called a leech and as the host, it cant feel very good to be leeched off of....youbet, PTC, etc.. have no tangible assets under your control to give you a bargining chip, thus you are at the whim of others and thats a bad position to be in, especially when you have Know Nothings like Stronach and Evans in charge of your future , that you have no control over....i am on your side but that and .10 cents will get you a .10 superfecta, i am just not sure what ADW you can bet that .10 cents at ;)

[Bruddah]

The whole ADW business plans of today are seriously flawed and will be subject to several evolutions, over the next several years. I have always believed in the KISS style of management (Keep It Simple Stupid) Todays ADW systems are as far from that goal as possible. Sorry to say, for some, there will be a weeding out process. I say cut to the chase, eliminate all middle interests. If this isn't done, look for the tracks and ADW's to up the take out. This will be the final nail in horse racings coffin. (JMHO) :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[bigmack]

I don't understand how witholding the signal from any ADW helps ANYONE, tracks, horsemen or players.

If someone has a legitimate argument otherwise I would love to hear it.
Just to reiterate:

I don't understand how witholding the signal from any ADW helps ANYONE, tracks, horsemen or players.

[Maji]

Helps the offshore bookmakers. Maybe they have an interest in keeping the US based ADWs off certain tracks. Just speculating... these offshore guys may be spending some dineros to keep the markets like the way they are now...

[HorseRun]

THE TRACKS KEEP CONTROL OF THEIR PRODUCT !!!

THATS HOW THEY BENEFIT, CONTROL OF THE PRODUCT THAT PAYS ALL THE OVERHEAD AND EXPENSES TO PUT ON , WHILE THE MIDDLE MEN JUST "LEECH"..

i am no fan of Tracknet, and dont like how they have went about this, but if we are trying to be honest and objective and see both sides of the issue, i can see why they would play a game of hardball and chicken to see who blinks first....they believe they are looking at BIG picture and will take the hits now....i dont agree with them on that, however once again UBET and PTC are not able to force anyone to make a move, thus they will be lucky to hang on when the shaking is done but the guys with all the cards, MAGNA, Churchill, NYRA(whoever that is) (and probably the final key to this puzzle) and of course TVG

[Premier Turf Club]

THE TRACKS KEEP CONTROL OF THEIR PRODUCT !!!

THATS HOW THEY BENEFIT, CONTROL OF THE PRODUCT THAT PAYS ALL THE OVERHEAD AND EXPENSES TO PUT ON , WHILE THE MIDDLE MEN JUST "LEECH"..

i am no fan of Tracknet, and dont like how they have went about this, but if we are trying to be honest and objective and see both sides of the issue, i can see why they would play a game of hardball and chicken to see who blinks first....they believe they are looking at BIG picture and will take the hits now....i dont agree with them on that, however once again UBET and PTC are not able to force anyone to make a move, thus they will be lucky to hang on when the shaking is done but the guys with all the cards, MAGNA, Churchill, NYRA(whoever that is) (and probably the final key to this puzzle) and of course TVG

90% of ALL handle is now bet off-track. That's what we know as going through the tote. When you factor in the bookmakers it's north of 95%. At least 50% of that 95% is wagered through ADWs (including the off-shore bookmakers). At some tracks its more like 75%. Without ADWs, most of the tracks in NA would disappear in a matter of months. We as players just don't have the time or inclination to go out to the tracks on anything other than an occasional basis (again for the most part).

Don't take my word for it, although the numbers don't lie. Let's put up a poll.

If you could only wager on track (lets even include simulcast wagers), no ADWs at all, how much do you think your wagering volume would drop? My guess is most people would say by more than 75%. I live 30 minutes from the nearest simulcast site and have a young son and would likely go out 3 or 4 times a year at best.

[Premier Turf Club]

OK. I posted a poll . My guess is most people will respond that their handle would either fall by 75% or they would stop playing altogether.

I happen to live within driving distance of a dog track. What many people fail to realize (particularly a large number of racing executives) is that many players couldn't go to a simulcast site even if they wanted to. I was having this very discussion recently with a very smart horseman in the Texas Thoroughbred Association and he made the very perceptive comment that "Texas is a very big state. Some residents live more than 200 miles from the nearest simulcast site." I have a close friend in Washington state, a die hard player, and a very good one, that lives many hours from Emerald. There's no way he could play without internet wagering.

Sometimes, those of us in major metro areas make the mistake of thinking everyone has the same access to certain things that we do.

[Gibbon]

…Churchill Downs Inc. will no longer release handle and attendance figures at the end of the meets of its four racetracks…

Perhaps Churchill should also eliminate the tote board.
This would solve all those conspiracy theories on late
money.





______________________
The house doesn't beat the player. It just gives him the opportunity to beat himself.

[HorseRun]

They seemed to find a way to get to the track from 1940-1990...You are comparing apples to oranges, as today there is very little need/motivation to go to the track....i used to go EVERY day of the week to the track (this pretty recently mind you, say up to around 2000 or so)....now i have to have my arm twisted to go as i cant justify wasting my time in traffic, tolls, having less info at track then i do at home, better food, etc....however make ADW dissappear and i would be driving there tomorrow....so yes i would vote in ur pole that my handle may drop HOWEVER i would be wageing on track/in person and thus the tracks hold will be much LARGER, even on a smaller handle (this is all hypothetical of course but its how you should conduct your pole, as all poles can be questioned to support the end result you prefer)

[Premier Turf Club]

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. I do not believe that the increased on-track handle (at the higher take) will offset the disapperance in ADW money. The night time tracks, in particular would shut down within 30 days.

[betovernetcapper]

THE TRACKS KEEP CONTROL OF THEIR PRODUCT !!!

THATS HOW THEY BENEFIT, CONTROL OF THE PRODUCT THAT PAYS ALL THE OVERHEAD AND EXPENSES TO PUT ON , WHILE THE MIDDLE MEN JUST "LEECH"..



The product is simply some horses running around an oval. What pays the overhead is guys like us betting. If they continue to control their product in the crapnet fashion, the 2010 Fasig-Tipton sale will be based on the horse's value as meat.

[DeanT]

Handle would have, imo, to drop by at least 50%.

What would trading volume of people drop if Etrade and all other online brokers were shut down, and $10 trades were again $100? What if we shut down all phone lines so you could not call your broker? Well I guess people, like they did in 1904, would head over on the stagecoach to the brokerage house and place an order in, but I think volume would go down ;)

I have come to the realization that tracks want the clock to turn back to 1930, when the stands were packed, it was the only game in town, and we were happy to give them 20 cents of every dollar we bet.

Sorry boys, it aint happening. The world has changed. Perhaps it is time you catch up with it.

[Indulto]

The product is simply some horses running around an oval. What pays the overhead is guys like us betting. If they continue to control their product in the crapnet fashion, the 2010 Fasig-Tipton sale will be based on the horse's value as meat.Who pays to purchase those horses, keep them in training, get them veterinary care, and maintain them when not in training? Total purses offered are only a fraction of the total paid for the preceding.

[betovernetcapper]

The prurses seem high enough to me, but if someone thinks the expenses are too high to make as an owner, then they shoundn't buy horses.

[Kelso]

They seemed to find a way to get to the track from 1940-1990...You are comparing apples to oranges, as today there is very little need/motivation to go to the track....i used to go EVERY day of the week to the track (this pretty recently mind you, say up to around 2000 or so


From 1940 through 1946 there was virtually no Las Vegas. From 1946 through mid-1978 Nevada was the only state that allowed casino gambling. From 1978 until well into the 1980s, Nevada and Atlantic City were the only places in the US where one could gamble in a casino. From 1940-1990, racetracks were the only legal gambling venues withing driving distance of almost all of the country's populace.

Casinos killed track profitability ... not ADWs.

As to your customs and preferences through 2000, they were absolutely meaningless to the overall health of the racetrack industry.

[Sailwolf]

They seemed to find a way to get to the track from 1940-1990...You are comparing apples to oranges, as today there is very little need/motivation to go to the track....i used to go EVERY day of the week to the track (this pretty recently mind you, say up to around 2000 or so)....now i have to have my arm twisted to go as i cant justify wasting my time in traffic, tolls, having less info at track then i do at home, better food, etc....however make ADW dissappear and i would be driving there tomorrow....so yes i would vote in ur pole that my handle may drop HOWEVER i would be wageing on track/in person and thus the tracks hold will be much LARGER, even on a smaller handle (this is all hypothetical of course but its how you should conduct your pole, as all poles can be questioned to support the end result you prefer)

I used to go the track, but turned to ADW because of the expenses and time of going to the track.

I will not go back. If no ADW, then my money stays in my pocket.:bang:

[ponypro]

When I come back from the simulcast my clothes smell like smoke and I have to take a shower. Even though I put about 2k a day thru the windows
NO ONE in management has ever bought me as much as a pop, EVER.

These places are run by the clueless.
If no ADW I Quit

[trigger]

I don't think anyone doubts that ADW is here to stay and is necessary for the tracks to survive. IMHO, the real question is who will own the ADWs.

[highnote]

I'd love to see handle figures for TrackNet and Twinspires.

Does anyone know if the quarterly reports for CD provide (will provide) information on TrackNet and Twinspires handle?

I wonder if horsemen are interested in handle figures? If handle is trending down, isn't it likely that purses will be cut? If I'm a horseman and handle is down, I might think about moving my stable before a purse cut -- not after.

[highnote]

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?dcn=0001104659-07-059769&Type=HTML

Here's a link to the most recent quarterly report. Can anyone shed some light on this?

By the way... here's what Crist had to say:

Churchill playing numbers game

Churchill Downs Inc. is understandably frustrated with reporters and analysts who misguidedly focus on live-attendance totals as a barometer of health for an industry that is increasingly driven by offtrack and account wagering. Churchill, however, went a step too far, into a realm of paranoid crypto-secrecy, with its announcement Wednesday that it will no longer release either attendance or handle totals for its four tracks at the conclusion of race meets.

.....................

Churchill has every right to stop issuing press releases with meet-end figures, but to deny access to those figures to interested parties, and to institute a corporate policy of concealing its most fundamental sales metrics, can only create ill will and the impression that it has something to hide.

[betovernetcapper]

CD "Goodwill" was recorded as being worth $53,528 on Dec 31,2006.

CD "Goodwill" was recorded as being worth $106,993 on June 30,2007.

The term must mean something other than the common usage because in Dec most people liked or were ambivalent about CD. Speaking for myself, during this time period I've moved from ambivalence to active dislike/contempt.

[startngate]

Their quarterly report listed Goodwill = $53,465 as part of the AmTab/Bris purchase, which would be the difference.

[betovernetcapper]

Thanks-I wouldn't have caught that.

[trigger]

I'd love to see handle figures for TrackNet and Twinspires.

Does anyone know if the quarterly reports for CD provide (will provide) information on TrackNet and Twinspires handle?

I wonder if horsemen are interested in handle figures? If handle is trending down, isn't it likely that purses will be cut? If I'm a horseman and handle is down, I might think about moving my stable before a purse cut -- not after.

My understanding is that Tracknet's main function is to negotiate takeout deals for its stable of tracks with OTBs, ADWs, other tracks, etc.,. Tracknet, itself, doesn't process wagers, so it wouldn't have any handle to report.

On horsemen and decreasing handle, CD's stance, as I understand it, is that the net revenues (portion of takeout that the track keeps that is split 50-50 with track and horsemen) is what counts, not gross handle.

[highnote]

My understanding is that Tracknet's main function is to negotiate takeout deals for its stable of tracks with OTBs, ADWs, other tracks, etc.,. Tracknet, itself, doesn't process wagers, so it wouldn't have any handle to report.


So TrackNet is an expense only?


On horsemen and decreasing handle, CD's stance, as I understand it, is that the net revenues (portion of takeout that the track keeps that is split 50-50 with track and horsemen) is what counts, not gross handle.

Is net revenue not a function of gross handle?

If gross handle decreases sharply, isn't that a sign that net revenue might drop also?

Revenue comes from handle, right? If there's no handle, there's no revenue.

I think financial analysts are smart enough to understand and report that gross handle is no longer the key metric it once was.

Report the damn handle for cryin' out loud.

[rrbauer]

Churchill has made it clear in the Meeker days and since then that they march to their own drum. They don't care what others think. They have their business to run and they run it.

Agree, or not, that's their prerogative. The energy we spend on this board and other chat rooms pissing on Churchill, Magna, etc. would be better spent complaining to state representatives about breakage and boycotting high-takeout pools. It's our money via simulcasting and ADW wagering that saved racing when the on-track attendance/handle went into the toilet. It's our money that keeps the game going. And, it's the withholding of our money from the betting pools that will ultimately drive the inefficient operators out of business and force the remainder to either reduce takeout and start embracing their customers wishes and improve their product; or, face business failure too.

So long as we support crappy businesses we will continue to enjoy the fruits of crappy products.

I yield the soapbox!

[trigger]

So TrackNet is an expense only?




Is net revenue not a function of gross handle?

If gross handle decreases sharply, isn't that a sign that net revenue might drop also?

Revenue comes from handle, right? If there's no handle, there's no revenue.

I think financial analysts are smart enough to understand and report that gross handle is no longer the key metric it once was.

Report the damn handle for cryin' out loud.

The press releases when Tracknet was created indicated that Tracknet would collect a minimal fee from its member tracks for its negotiating efforts.

Yes, but net revenues are a function of the amount of takeout the track keeps under its various contracts (percentages can vary greatly) from external bet processors plus takeout from on- track and self owned OTBs/ADWs.
What would be really meaningful information is for the tracks to report handle AND net revenue by track and source (ADW, OTB, Other tracks, etc) for each meet.

[highnote]

Churchill has made it clear in the Meeker days and since then that they march to their own drum. They don't care what others think. They have their business to run and they run it.

Agree, or not, that's their prerogative.

I agree, they can do what ever they want. But they need to be aware that someone other than analysts are keeping an eye on them.

If I was an analyst, I'd read PaceAdvantage everyday. And if I was the CEO of a company in the racing industry I'd also be reading PA everyday.

[highnote]

Ellis Park did a nice job reporting their attendance and handle -- including 3 different mutuel pools.

I was interested to see what kind of handle Laurel would do with the 10% takeout. Laurel didn't report any attendance or handle figures.

Nice job, MEC. They must be following CD's lead. Or is it the other way around?

Well, it doesn't matter who started it. I think if I wanted to stay in business I would do the exact opposite of everything that MEC has done.

You know that old line about the definition of insanity -- doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt -- maybe there is a good reason they couldn't report the figures. However, I would strongly encourage them to report them.

[linrom1]

Handle would have, imo, to drop by at least 50%.

What would trading volume of people drop if Etrade and all other online brokers were shut down, and $10 trades were again $100? What if we shut down all phone lines so you could not call your broker? Well I guess people, like they did in 1904, would head over on the stagecoach to the brokerage house and place an order in, but I think volume would go down ;)

I have come to the realization that tracks want the clock to turn back to 1930, when the stands were packed, it was the only game in town, and we were happy to give them 20 cents of every dollar we bet.

Sorry boys, it aint happening. The world has changed. Perhaps it is time you catch up with it.

I believe that takeout was only 10% in 1930's.

[gIracing]

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. I do not believe that the increased on-track handle (at the higher take) will offset the disapperance in ADW money. The night time tracks, in particular would shut down within 30 days.

Oh the night time tracks wouldn't last 2 weeks let alone 30 days... shoot Charles Town purses are looking as good as Del Mar's!

hwoever as the previous poster said... all in all.... I live by Oaklawn Park.. Oaklawn has been in business since 1905


I don't make the 2 hour drive round trip because I don't have to.. but if I did and would and wouldnt' blink twice.

would handle go down? of course. But then you cut racing dates to cut overhead, raise TAkeout.. and boom. back in the game.

the only reason we are able to have even the remote talk of lowering takeouts is because of ADW's. but they would find a way to be in business

[garyoz]

Here's a link to the most recent quarterly report. Can anyone shed some light on this?

IMHO, a very clean 10-Q. Company is in good shape--plenty of room on the balance sheet to have flexibility. Really not that much about Tracknet and the Magna partnership except language that has already appeared in press releases.

The line of business (by track) breakout is interesting, and doesn't show much year to year fluctuation--up in the aggregate about 3% for revenues from continuing operations--keeping up with inflation.

Would like to have seen more details of the Bris acquisition besides the $80mm and potential $7mm in earnouts. Maybe in the 10-K (annual SEC required report) they will provide more details. Whatever they paid for the subscibers of Brisbet, Winticket, etc...they probably overpaid because I would think much of that revenue has migrated to Youbet and TVG.

They put $800k into HRTV during the quarter (or at least from early May until July 30)...would be interested in seeing that fleshed out. If they are 50% partners, that would suggest about a $6.4 mm in annual expenses. That seems low for a TV network--but that may represent operating expenses--with MECA already providing the start-up capital.

Interesting stuff, 10-Q's always have limited information, but this one was pretty complete. A good job reporting to shareholders. They are in solid shape.

[highnote]

Maybe it's time to buy CD?

[beertapper]

i dunno why, but when i first read this, it reminded me of the Federal Reserve's decision to stop publishing M3 figures. not related at all I know, but the motives are similar ??

[garyoz]

Maybe it's time to buy CD?

Nah (IMHO) ...my 10-Q comments were directed at the quality of the information and finanical viability of the company. Valuation depends upon the execution of the business plan--which still seems flakey to me.