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douglasw32
08-07-2007, 11:12 AM
From DRF web site:

RESTRICTIONS. You acknowledge and agree that you may not reproduce, resell, publish, transmit, disseminate, distribute, or commercially exploit the Information in its existing or any altered form by any means. You understand and agree that the Information acquired hereunder is for your personal, non-commercial use.

A link to a sheet I designed using information from formulators' export function with MY OWN RANKING FORMULA.

The Only information on the Sheet is publicly available elsewhere as far as I can tell.

Even the clipart I use is Public Domain.

....................NOW HERE IS THE QUESTION.......................

1. How can someone legally sell a sheet like this to people who want the information...others are doing it, but how are they with the agreement quoted above?

2. Since i generate the sheet from an access database and could program a website to allow you to log in and browse for your own "For Personal use" exports and then generate the sheet and print it to your own printer....would this be a legal way of doing it?


3. What are other options for doing so ?
LEGALLY

:confused:

LINK TO THE SHEET (PA: Please Remove if it is in some way wrong to have posted)

http://localpcpros.com/PHA080707.pdf

betovernetcapper
08-07-2007, 12:03 PM
I'd lose the line "Information obtained from Formulator etc" and have at it, but I'm not a lawyer. :)

douglasw32
08-07-2007, 01:45 PM
I thought of that ... and I should note here... NO ONE HAS ASKED TO, I HAVE NOT TRIED TO, and I probably Never will sell the information...

Even though such grandiose ideas have always run through my head...

I simply wanted to know how it is done... and your reply may be the answer.

I was wondering if there was some more legit way than just saying I had no idea where I got the info.

betovernetcapper
08-07-2007, 01:58 PM
Lenny Bruce had this great bit which tells you what to do when your wife catches you doing something wrong-Deny Everything-
"even if your wife catches you screwing the chicken-deny it"
It was better when Bruce said it. :)

green80
08-07-2007, 03:46 PM
If you followed drf restrictions to the letter, no one could publish a tip sheet or sell picks.

46zilzal
08-07-2007, 04:13 PM
I tried it many years ago and the local race track told me that the entries were the copyrighted property of the racing association. Even a copyright and patent attorney agreed that they COULD and probably WOULD put an injunction out, that is unless you greased the right palms.

BOTTOM LINE is that they can make it very difficult for you if they want to.

douglasw32
08-08-2007, 10:42 AM
“Never tell. Not if you love your wife... In fact, if your old lady walks in on you, deny it. Yeah. Just flat out and she'll believe it: "I'm tellin' ya. This chick came downstairs with a sign around her neck 'Lay on Top of Me Or I'll Die.' I didn't know what I was gonna do...."”

pandy
08-08-2007, 10:46 AM
You won't have any problems with picks like this, but if you generated reports that they feel are competing with them they could shut you down. A few years ago I tried to help someone market a harness racing website where he had a lot of great information, such as trainer stats, post position stats, and Trackmaster shut him down (cut him off from the files).

Gibbon
08-08-2007, 09:35 PM
Niece post pandy, thanks.

There are exorbitant profits to be made from selling
gambling data. Equibase seems willing to use scummy
tactics to maintain their monopoly along with their hand
picked partners.

One wonders if perhaps Ed Bain’s accusations are in fact – fact.





_____________________
I think it's wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly. ~ Steven Wright

douglasw32
08-08-2007, 11:50 PM
I emptied my full Private Messages Box.

douglasw32
08-09-2007, 12:18 AM
Oh so if anyone wants a link to the free sheets on the beta version of the website I made (part of what I do in my small business) PM me and i will send you the link.

If I get shutdown then I get shutdown, if I am not charging for it i shouldn't...right ???

Ron
08-09-2007, 11:28 AM
A couple of years ago outside the Saratoga gates, there were some semi-hot young ladies in tight shirts and short shorts pushing "Chick's Picks". I haven't seen them since.

Lefty
08-09-2007, 11:51 AM
There's quite a few websites that do this very thing and have been for quite a while. Full Card Reports and Racehorse runner come to mind. So give it a go and remember it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

cj
08-09-2007, 11:54 AM
...if I am not charging for it i shouldn't...right ???

Wrong.

douglasw32
08-09-2007, 12:32 PM
Well it will be an interesting way to find out...
If I get a cease an desist order I will let everyone know.

We all know this board gets read, I made it clear how I am generating the sheet and what my intentions are.

I have it on a publicly accessible website, but am not charging anything.

I have tried to restrict the information on the sheet to publicly available information, the only thing mine is doing is LISTING them in ORDER of what I feel there best chances are.

If you ask me...I am doing it about as fairly as one could ask but....


I have agreed to this "You acknowledge and agree that you may not reproduce, resell, publish, transmit, disseminate, distribute, or commercially exploit the Information in its existing or any altered form by any means." with my membership to the data providers site.

so if Goliath wanted to crush david they could in a heart beat.

to be continued....

Steve 'StatMan'
08-09-2007, 01:52 PM
I'd get rid of the detailed race conditions. Most of the rest once could logically argue was typed, or pretty much public domain. But the perfectly typed details of the race conditions that match another source (all the way down to weight allowances for pounds off per $1,000 claim price) would be a red flag, and probably not needed for your purposes - you'd be better with just the basics class and any strictions (3yo, f&m, N3L, etc.)

douglasw32
08-09-2007, 04:48 PM
Very True..will do

douglasw32
08-11-2007, 12:15 AM
http://localpcpros.com/mth081007.pdf

Above is a link to a modification.
I removed the ML odds (again fear of copyright)

I added the figures back in because I needed to see an OFF TRACK comparison.

That should do it.

Comments appreciated.

PittsburghPhil
08-13-2007, 04:06 PM
http://localpcpros.com/mth081007.pdf

Above is a link to a modification.
I removed the ML odds (again fear of copyright)

I added the figures back in because I needed to see an OFF TRACK comparison.

That should do it.

Comments appreciated.

The PAP sheets put the morning line on the sheet (compared to a value line) and their publisher doesn't seem worried.

douglasw32
08-13-2007, 04:18 PM
I take it PAP is this http://www.**********.com/horsepix.html
Did a google search?

if so yes I see they do have a morning Line...and nice sheet with free ones for SAR :)

Odd... c y b e r s h e e t
comes up all astericks

PaceAdvantage
08-14-2007, 01:58 AM
Odd... c y b e r s h e e t
comes up all astericks

Not odd at all. It's by design.

douglasw32
08-14-2007, 02:02 AM
ooops, is that a no no...or it happens to all links or something? excuse my ignorance :confused:

PaceAdvantage
08-14-2007, 03:06 AM
ooops, is that a no no...or it happens to all links

Not all links. Only ones tagged as "special" in the black book.

douglasw32
08-14-2007, 06:25 AM
Ahh, got ya well zip that right on out of there....

cj
08-14-2007, 11:36 AM
Funny, I knew that was old Ray Gordon on his first post. The link is hysterical though.

douglasw32
08-14-2007, 11:05 PM
Sorry Steve I thought I had responded, I did remove those, I am struggling with the ML being on there..

So here is another question for everyone, use the Morning Line made by 1-person or use a Line created with basic Math from the rankings, both have flaws but what would be a better starting point for say...tote watching.

douglasw32
08-16-2007, 01:30 PM
I have another Question, I figured I would add it here instead of a new thread since it is all related.

If I know, from using this data that MDNS/ and 2 year olds are the worst thing to use this sheet with, would it make sense to just filter them out, rather than just stating that and running the whole card anyhow.

I put the ML back in and played with taking the Jock out but I won't for now.

And I am still going to run a fair odds line out of the rankings, see how it compares to the ML.

douglasw32
09-08-2007, 11:58 PM
Okay-

http://www.localpcpros.com/Sheets_open/BEL090907.pdf

I have finally settled on this...

Nothing there can be considered (C)

anyone interested Get it each day for free at www.distancefigs.com
I am doing Belmont right now if you want something else email me.

SignUpKing
09-09-2007, 12:08 AM
Okay-

http://www.localpcpros.com/Sheets_open/BEL090907.pdf

I have finally settled on this...

Nothing there can be considered (C)

anyone interested Get it each day for free at www.distancefigs.com (http://www.distancefigs.com/)
I am doing Belmont right now if you want something else email me.

All of your picks come from watching videos, right? LOL

SignUpKing
09-09-2007, 12:11 AM
From DRF web site:

RESTRICTIONS. You acknowledge and agree that you may not reproduce, resell, publish, transmit, disseminate, distribute, or commercially exploit the Information in its existing or any altered form by any means. You understand and agree that the Information acquired hereunder is for your personal, non-commercial use.

A link to a sheet I designed using information from formulators' export function with MY OWN RANKING FORMULA.

The Only information on the Sheet is publicly available elsewhere as far as I can tell.

Even the clipart I use is Public Domain.

I
....................NOW HERE IS THE QUESTION.......................

1. How can someone legally sell a sheet like this to people who want the information...others are doing it, but how are they with the agreement quoted above?

2. Since i generate the sheet from an access database and could program a website to allow you to log in and browse for your own "For Personal use" exports and then generate the sheet and print it to your own printer....would this be a legal way of doing it?


3. What are other options for doing so ?
LEGALLY

:confused:

LINK TO THE SHEET (PA: Please Remove if it is in some way wrong to have posted)

http://localpcpros.com/PHA080707.pdf

I am a lawyer -- the information/data itself is protected, that is for sure. But your interpretations of such information/data is your own intellectual property, and such can be published and sold.

Are you reproducing DRF's data or your own opinions based thereon?

douglasw32
09-09-2007, 12:14 AM
Well.... maybe.....
or maybe I have a really good memory....
or I use the crystal ball the wizard is holding...

I'm just saying, if I fold my hand as to what provider(s) I am pulling the data from by putting figs up or details of races etc...I could face the equibase monopoly.

I guess a misspelling of a horses name could do be easy enough but I doubt even my paranoia runs that deep.

douglasw32
09-09-2007, 12:25 AM
I agree, but....

My own opinion does...

"commercially exploit the Information in its existing or any altered form by any means"

Does it not?

King Ritchie
09-09-2007, 01:51 AM
I tried it many years ago and the local race track told me that the entries were the copyrighted property of the racing association. Even a copyright and patent attorney agreed that they COULD and probably WOULD put an injunction out, that is unless you greased the right palms.

BOTTOM LINE is that they can make it very difficult for you if they want to.

Typical response: You have no idea what you're talking about -Information in the public domain is not copyrightable. And as far as the lawyers, you are simply lying here - no patent/copyright attorney would tell you that.

King Ritchie
09-09-2007, 01:55 AM
Do a search on the board and you'll find tons of information about intellectual property here. This topic has been discussed and discussed and discussed.

SignUpKing
09-09-2007, 02:22 AM
Typical Liberal response: You have no idea what you're talking about -Information in the public domain is not copyrightable. And as far as the lawyers, you are simply lying here - no patent/copyright attorney would tell you that.

Yes, information in the public domain is not copyrigtheable, but proprietary data certainly is, like the Ragozin numbers (from The Sheets).

That said, race entries, program numbers, and even race conditions, are not copyrightable, but data from the DRF Formulator certainly is.

SignUpKing
09-09-2007, 02:24 AM
I agree, but....

My own opinion does...

"commercially exploit the Information in its existing or any altered form by any means"

Does it not?

"Commercially exploit" is vague and ambiguous -- what exactly does it mean?

To be safe, make your selections / your numbers without reference to any proprietary source.

douglasw32
09-09-2007, 09:20 AM
Agreed and that is what I have done....
The program lists by odds value and then you can use any proprietary source to fill in the blanks (as anyone should anyhow)
I am very happy with the result and I thank (sincerely) everyone who contributed with opinions both in the thread and PM :)

douglasw32
09-09-2007, 09:48 AM
One more thing....

If you donated to the website (or anyone) and want a certain card email distancefigs@gmail.com and I will do my best to email a link to it. (good idea to do it the day before, as I work all day)

I usually only run the card (s) I am playing and right now that would be Belmont Park.

Not sure how long I can keep it up because it takes more time than I thought but I am trying to write the code that currently does it in an access database into a program to use exported data and maybe sell the program that would be more carefree since it is a KISS program that would not need tech support other than an email or two.

PaceAdvantage
09-09-2007, 03:04 PM
That said, race entries, program numbers, and even race conditions, are not copyrightable, but data from the DRF Formulator certainly is.

Something tells me Equibase would beg to differ on these points.

douglasw32
09-09-2007, 03:42 PM
A Conundrum is a puzzling question. In one variety of conundrum, the question is posed as a riddle and the answer is or involves a pun. More broadly, a conundrum is any problem where the answer is very complex, possibly unsolvable without deep investigation. A mystery or paradox can often be phrased as a conundrum.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conundrum (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conundrum&usg=AFQjCNHV6f4h_L9jtvWY5KlAMktx7J6h1w)

SignUpKing
09-09-2007, 11:33 PM
Something tells me Equibase would beg to differ on these points.

Equibase could differ all they want . . . to no avail.

PaceAdvantage
09-10-2007, 01:39 AM
Equibase could differ all they want . . . to no avail.

Well, we really don't know that for sure, as it hasn't been tested in a court of law.

The Hawk
09-10-2007, 08:44 PM
Well, we really don't know that for sure, as it hasn't been tested in a court of law.

Not only that, but something tells me they have a lot more money to waste on lawyers than you do, SignUpKing. They'll drag it out as long as possible and bleed you out.

SignUpKing
09-11-2007, 03:47 AM
Not only that, but something tells me they have a lot more money to waste on lawyers than you do, SignUpKing. They'll drag it out as long as possible and bleed you out.

I wouldn't be "bled out" -- this was not my post, not my business.

As a law professor, I just gave my opinion of how it would likely play out in court. Certain data is not protected.