Bridge Collpase

[Tom]

Congress is voting todat to earmark $250 million of OUR dollars to re-build the bridge in Minn.
Just down the road from the collapse sits a $350 million dollar baseball stadium.
Why should dollar one of my taxes go to rebuild thier bridge when they spend thier own money on baseball stadiums.

This disastor, like Katrin in NO, is a STATE matter,not a federal one.
If they needa bridge, let THEM pay for it. :mad::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:


Oh boy, Sonny Bush is on the scenena and will speak at 11:45am....no telling what UIncle Sugarbush will promise them!

[GameTheory]

Yeah, it's just a bridge. No one is displaced from their home, and it is only a tragedy for the people that happened to be sitting on it and their families.

Is this bridge just a city bridge or is is part of the interstate or something?

[Tom]

Not sure - don't really care. It was identified by the Feds as somehow not upto snuff, whatever the lingo used was or means, yet they spent the money on a ball park. The same irresponsibility NO showed when it ignored Bush before Katrina hit - SchoolBus Nagin waited until the last quater dropped in the slot machine before failing to evacuate his city in time. Now come the blame it on Bush routine......already starting by the drive by media.

[Marlin]

I disagree with just about all. I would love my tax dollars to go to a ballpark or a bridge. At least it is something tangible that I can enjoy. I guess I'm a bit selfish, but it is a fact that my tax money isn't going into my pocket, so at least give me something that directly benefits ME!

[dutchboy]

5 miles from where I live. It was an 8 lane north/south bridge on I35 which runs from Texas to northern MN. All 8 lanes of the bridge fell. It will add an est $125,000 to trucking costs per day. 125,000 cars per day used it. The bridge that fell is a few blocks from the new Twins ballpark that will cost 500 million to build in the next 2-3 years. The bridge is a few blocks from the new 300-400 million dollar MN Gopher football stadium now being built to open in two years. On top of that the MN Vikings would like the state of Mn to chip in toward building a billion dollar stadium in the next few years to replace the HHH Metrodome.
May not be accurate to write that it is only a tragedy for the people sitting on the bridge.


Yeah, it's just a bridge. No one is displaced from their home, and it is only a tragedy for the people that happened to be sitting on it and their families.

Is this bridge just a city bridge or is is part of the interstate or something?

[Light]

Federals funding to state levels have been cut in many areas including transportation in order to pay for the $500 Billion price tag of the Iraq war.

[chickenhead]

Federals funding to state levels have been cut in many areas including transportation in order to pay for the $500 Billion price tag of the Iraq war.

They apportion these budgets in 6 year blocks.

TEA-21 covered 98-03 $218b

SAFETEA-LU covers 04-09 $286B

Looks like an increase to me.

[Tom]

Light never lets facts get in the way of his bias.
And Marlin, as long as your tax dollars build stuff for you, fine...jsut don'/t see why MINE have to build you stuff. Let Minn. pay it's own way. they made a decision to buy a ballpark instead of repairing the bridge. Let them live with it. Stupidity deserves what it gets.

[DJofSD]

If I recall correctly, the bridge is part of the Federal Interstate Highway system. It had been examined 5 years ago and received a score of less than 50 which is suppose to mean 'in danger and immediate need of repair/upgrade.' The state had tried to repair it multiple times including fastening steel plates to the sections that were involved in the collapse. What I can't recall are the various reasons why the repairs had been continually delayed. At one point either the governor or a member of the state legislator had attempted to move the repairs up the priority ladder but was defeated.

OTOH, I caught part of a program on BookTV this AM. Part of the thesis was there is no obligation of any level of government to ensure your safety or physical well-being.

And we pay taxes to get what?

[GameTheory]

5 miles from where I live. It was an 8 lane north/south bridge on I35 which runs from Texas to northern MN. All 8 lanes of the bridge fell. It will add an est $125,000 to trucking costs per day. 125,000 cars per day used it. The bridge that fell is a few blocks from the new Twins ballpark that will cost 500 million to build in the next 2-3 years. The bridge is a few blocks from the new 300-400 million dollar MN Gopher football stadium now being built to open in two years. On top of that the MN Vikings would like the state of Mn to chip in toward building a billion dollar stadium in the next few years to replace the HHH Metrodome.
May not be accurate to write that it is only a tragedy for the people sitting on the bridge.Increased trucking costs is not a tragedy.

In the pictures it looks like there is another bridge right next to it still standing. Is that so?

[Tom]

Yeah, there is.....and I would be willing to drive over it! NOT! :lol:

[dutchboy]

It is part of the Interstate Hwy System named I35W. The bridge was considered a problem since 1990. The steel plates as was reported this morning were never tried because the drilling and welding to install them may have done more harm. The bridge was built in the late 1960's. It was approx 1200 ft long, 8 lanes wide, concrete roadway built on top of a metal span. One of a few bridges built with no supports. Basically a flat platform laid from one bank of the Mississippi river to the other. If any part of the steel truss fails the whole thing must come down. They have worked on it each year for several years. Guess this is what happens when you start sending 120-200,000 cars and trucks a day across a bridge designed for 40,000 cars a day.



If I recall correctly, the bridge is part of the Federal Interstate Highway system. It had been examined 5 years ago and received a score of less than 50 which is suppose to mean 'in danger and immediate need of repair/upgrade.' The state had tried to repair it multiple times including fastening steel plates to the sections that were involved in the collapse. What I can't recall are the various reasons why the repairs had been continually delayed. At one point either the governor or a member of the state legislator had attempted to move the repairs up the priority ladder but was defeated.

OTOH, I caught part of a program on BookTV this AM. Part of the thesis was there is no obligation of any level of government to ensure your safety or physical well-being.

And we pay taxes to get what?

[Tom]

Too bad our government is so thoroughly corrupt and ineffective that they take the money for highway saftey and use it on pork projects. I would suggest members of congress be held on murder by depraved indifference.
If any governors had any balls they would close suspect bridges and let the chips fall wehre they may - force the feds to oopen them up.
But then again, I never heard of a govenor who was in office for any reason other than to get rich.

[DJofSD]

I think Arnold is in office to get richer.

[Light]

They apportion these budgets in 6 year blocks.

TEA-21 covered 98-03 $218b

SAFETEA-LU covers 04-09 $286B

Looks like an increase to me.

Reality check.When Bush took office the national highway trust fund had a $23 billion surplus. It is expected to go broke this year and run on a deficit next year.But there's allways money for war. $100,000 a minute to be exact.

[Pace Cap'n]

Why on earth would a highway fund have a surplus?

[Light]

DUH,Maybe because money was being appropriated to domestic needs,rather than a stupid war.

[chickenhead]

Reality check.When Bush took office the national highway trust fund had a $23 billion surplus. It is expected to go broke this year and run on a deficit next year.But there's allways money for war. $100,000 a minute to be exact.

Reality Check? Do you have anything to back up your statement that transportation funding has been cut? I didn't think so, because it has been increased.

Of course the Highway Trust Fund is going to go broke. It is fed by revenues that are not indexed for inflation, while the money is spent on things that rise in cost with inflation. Not that I'd expect you to understand something as basic as that. Far from spending being decreased, spending increases have outstripped revenues. Surprise surprise surprise.

[chickenhead]

DUH,Maybe because money was being appropriated to domestic needs,rather than a stupid war.

That doesn't even come close to being a sensible response to his question.

[dutchboy]

Increased Fuel Efficiency Wreaks Havoc On Highway Trust Fund


<LI class="first taxonomy_term_9">United States (http://www.planetizen.com/us) <LI class=taxonomy_term_87>Energy (http://www.planetizen.com/energy)
Transportation (http://www.planetizen.com/transportation)

Posted by: Irvin Dawid (http://www.planetizen.com/user/403)
Thanks to: MTC-ABAG library (http://www.planetizen.com/node/www.mtc.ca.gov)

26 April 2007 - 10:00am
As vehicles become more fuel efficient, their drivers pay less in fuel excise taxes, the main source of road funding. Fuel efficiency will likely increase as a global warming reduction strategy, while fuel excise taxes remain largely stagnant.




Reality Check? Do you have anything to back up your statement that transportation funding has been cut? I didn't think so, because it has been increased.

Of course the Highway Trust Fund is going to go broke. It is fed by revenues that are not indexed for inflation, while the money is spent on things that rise in cost with inflation. Not that I'd expect you to understand something as basic as that. Far from spending being decreased, spending increases have outstripped revenues. Surprise surprise surprise.

[JustRalph]

highways should be paid for by those who use them..............

State funding as the majority of the highway budget and very little federal.......which means they cut that damn Fed Gas Tax too............... but they don't think that way............I don't want to pay for highways in a state somewhere where I don't drive!!!

Then things like the "Big Dig" fall on the back of those who deserve it.......see the note below for info on the Big Dig.........

What is the history of the current federal funding?

Luberoff: After an intense battle with the Reagan administration in the mid-1980s, Massachusetts convinced Congress to make most of the project -- estimated at $3 billion -- eligible for funding from the Interstate Highway program which paid 90 percent of the cost of roads regardless of total cost. In 1991, however, all other planned Interstate highways were built and Congress agreed to pay 90 percent of the then estimated cost of $5.2 billion but also announced that it would not fund any more cost increases because it was ending the Interstate program. This meant that Massachusetts was getting back almost $3 for every dollar its residents paid in federal gas taxes. In 1998, when Congress passed a new highway act, it cut the state’s allocation so it now gets back a little bit more than a dollar for every dollar paid in gas taxes -- which was a major cut in federal funding. The state is using most of that money to pay for the Big Dig but it won’t be able to get any additional federal funds for the project.

[Greyfox]

There but for the Grace of God go I.

[Tom]

Hey light, reality check for you - if there was a surplus, and I use your own words, "When Bush took office" how the HELL did the money get spent on a war not yet started?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8894520/

In fact, he signed a whooper, after fighting to keep the cost of pork down for two years.

[PaceAdvantage]

DUH,Maybe because money was being appropriated to domestic needs,rather than a stupid war.

You mean the stupid war Pelosi, Reid and Dean LIED US INTO?

http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv (http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv)

[kenwoodallpromos]

Why on earth would a highway fund have a surplus?
"Each time there has been an increase in the amount of gas tax going into the Highway Trust Fund—1990, 1993 and 1997—20 percent of the increase has been allocated to the Transit Account and 80 percent to the Highway Account. Of the current gasoline tax of 18.3 cents per gallon, 2.86 cents per gallon is allocated to the Mass Transit Account. "

There's your problem- Baby Bush refused to raised the gas tax while in office!LOL!!

[michiken]

The state had tried to repair it multiple times including fastening steel plates to the sections that were involved in the collapse As an engineer, one of the worst nightmares we can think of is designing a structure that collapses. Unlike our European and Japanese counterparts who design projects down to the gnats ass, we are more conservative and tend to build robustly. Steel is cheap compared to human life.

When I was working at Ford, we had a rash of bolts break on one conveyor system.

What we found is that they were counterfeits from China that looked like high grade structural bolts.....

- They looked the same including the markings however the metallurgy had air pockets.

- These type of bolts are quenched and tempered (baked in an oven) to increase the strength.

I hope for the people that lost their lives or were injured that this was not the case.

[chickenhead]

I am as always astounded at the skills of the olden time engineers. Designing and building something as complex as the Golden Gate or Brooklyn Bridge with nothing more than paper and pencil takes a kind of skill that just isn't very prevalent. Amazing.

[ddog]

Yeah, it's just a bridge. No one is displaced from their home, and it is only a tragedy for the people that happened to be sitting on it and their families.

Is this bridge just a city bridge or is is part of the interstate or something?

You have just posted what has to be in the top ten of the most disgusting-heartless posts of all time on any board.
May you and yours not be anywhere near the next national/state infrastructure failure that WILL occur.

There are at last count around 70,000 other bridges at or close to the rating this bridge was given.

By the way , why can this country not build anything of a national scope anymore?

Do you think given the selfish feeble-minded comments of the well named idiot-savant earlier in this thread that if those sentiments had been the main stream of thought that almost any part of the national hwy structure,which is crumbing around our ears now, along with the large dam/power projects would have ever been done.

Do you not realize the economic value we were HANDED by past generations of CAN-DO builders that has benefitted YOU directly and that YOU have NEVER paid for?

Why do most of those projects date back to the 30-40-50-60's timeframe?

What a pathetic excuse of a hollowed-out/wimp of a country this place has become.

Do you ever attempt to pull your head out long enough to see what is going on with the water supply systems in this country?

Who needs OBL when we have people with attitudes like some of the posters on this thread.

[DJofSD]

Earth to ddog, earth to ddog -- look up the word sarcasm in a dictionary.

[GameTheory]

You have just posted what has to be in the top ten of the most disgusting-heartless posts of all time on any board.Why? Who am I being disgusting and heartless towards? A bridge fell down -- a physical object. These things happen. Am I supposed to be sad for the dead bridge? I said it was a tragedy for the people who were on the bridge at the time and their families. Who else is it a "tragedy" for? (I'm not saying it is good, but let's have some perspective.) My point is that thank God more people weren't killed, and that the rest of the problems this causes can be fixed by money and willpower. What is your point? I don't get it.

As for the rest of your rant, I don't see your point there either. What are you talking about?

[JustRalph]

As for the rest of your rant, I don't see your point there either. What are you talking about?

He is talking about my post see here (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=406510&postcount=21)

He is whining about how heartless it is to see it that way. He thinks with a Socialist bent. The greater good for the collective. He mentions that the U.S. highway system would have never been built if "my thinking" were dominant. The truth is that building a national highway system 50 years ago is a completely different issue and not even remotely related to my comments. This is a completely different time. There is no reason in hell that I should have to pay to repair a bridge in Minnesota.

First off the Federal Highway funds in my example (the big dig) were hijacked by the state of mass. and individuals from all over the country who willl never ever drive thru it, helped pay for it. I am against these kind of developments. States need to be held responsible for their grandiose ideas that only benefit their constituents, yet are paid for by Federal Programs. This is a text book example of re-distribution of wealth.

If a State wants to build a corrupt highway interchange that wastes money and feeds organized crime and all the other pitfalls..........they should pay for it! Then maybe the people of their state might pay more attention to who they elect. They might give a shit when the corrupt construction companies and politicians kill people when they try to save 5 or 6 grand on part of a gazillion dollar project. The fact that money appropriated from individuals all over the country was used in the Big Dig and other projects is a crime.

Gametheory was not out of line at all. It wasn't satire, it wasn't sarcasm.......it was truth.

The people of Minnesota decided to build a Baseball Stadium......instead of a bridge................ now live with it. But don't ask me to pay for fixing it.

You ask why we can't build anything of a national scope anymore? It is because our government sucks!!! We shouldn't be building anything of a national scope anyway. It goes back to my original point...........

[dutchboy]

This is a brief clip on interstate road and bridge frunding found on Wikipedia.

About 56%[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_highway#_note-5) of the construction and maintenance costs are funded through user fees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_fee), primarily gasoline taxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_tax), collected by states and the federal government, and tolls collected on toll roads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_road) and bridges. The rest of the costs are borne by the federal budget. In the eastern United States, large sections of some Interstate Highways planned or built prior to 1956 are operated as toll roads. The taxes dedicated to the construction and maintenance of highways are sometimes criticized as a direct subsidy from the government to promote and maintain auto-oriented development

[Tom]

I think what is disgusting here is the the poeple who drive over this bridge everyday chose to spent $350 million dollars on a new baseball stadium when in fact, the bridge had already been identified as not fully safe. Now other taxpayeers have to fork over money to take care of thier studpidity, and I use the word stupid in a literal sense.

[dutchboy]

Check your facts. The fed gov controls all money spent on interstate hwy construction. The state and residents of the area decided to build the ballpark.
The two cannot be connected.
Before calling other people stupid check your facts. Any interstate you drive on is partially paid for by taxes generated on fuel sales out of your area and out of your state.

I think what is disgusting here is the the poeple who drive over this bridge everyday chose to spent $350 million dollars on a new baseball stadium when in fact, the bridge had already been identified as not fully safe. Now other taxpayeers have to fork over money to take care of thier studpidity, and I use the word stupid in a literal sense.

[Tom]

That bridge is on thier backyards and they knew it was not up to par.
Do the math. The word stupid seems to apply to me.

[rgustafson]

I think what is disgusting here is the the poeple who drive over this bridge everyday chose to spent $350 million dollars on a new baseball stadium when in fact, the bridge had already been identified as not fully safe. Now other taxpayeers have to fork over money to take care of thier studpidity, and I use the word stupid in a literal sense.

Sorry to butt into the middle of your debate here and I'm not taking sides one way or the other but you need to get your facts straight about the new baseball stadium. The proposed stadium that they are just breaking ground for is to have roughly one third of the cost paid for by the Minnesota Twins. The remaining funding is to be supplied by a levy of a 0.15% sales tax in Hennepin county where the stadium is to be built. This was approved by the Minneapolis city council and no voter referendum in the county was allowed, so the people who drive over the bridge had no say in this at all. Just something you should be aware of before labeling people as stupid.

[Tom]

I'm labeling the local government stupid. What I call stupid is the Katrina Syndrom. Everyone sits on their fat asses and waits for Uncle Sugar to bail them out. The point is, a major bridge in thier city is probably not safe, they knew it, they do nothing about it. They have the time to talk about subsidizing baseball - sport welfare, but just pretend notning is wrong and today, people are dead, and the rest of us are beid asked to pick up the bill. At what point does anyone take responsibility for thier own city???

If they have to spend that tax money on the new stadium, wouldn't a reasonable person say - fork it over, play inthe old park, oh, my gosh! let the damn Twins pick op the tab????? How many millions are going to pay grown ment to spit and scratch and chase little balls around a park while the infastructure crumbles artound them????

Minn is just the tip of the iceberg. I say this about every damn city in the country - take care of your own, I don't have the cash anymore.
To be fair, let me call Rochester NY as one of the stupidest cities in the nation ( 30 miles away). they bought a ferry to go back and forth to Totonto, cost millions, then could make it work, sold it, took a $42 million bath, and are on the hook to pay Toronto rent on the unused terminal there for the next 20 years (no wonder they have a new holiday!:D)
Menawhile, we have murderd on the streets about one a week - a lot for a city this size, and the interio of the ciuty looks like Beruit - a total rotted out disator area. Many building still have boarded windows from the race riots in 1964!

Point is, cities are getting far too much bail out from Uncle Sugar and it is high time to cut the cord and let them live or die on thier own. our tax dollars are being wasted by morons and idiots and crooks.

So, I will continue to use the term stupid.

[Ron]

This is America, Tom. We don't have to take reponsiblity for our own bodies in this country.

[Marlin]

People are acting like a ballpark is a one time expense that is a waste of money. Will the new ballpark not create tax revenue? The Twins would have been long gone without a ballpark, the tax on the players salary alone will be huge. What about new businesses and new revenue to current business? I would think that the new ballpark would eventually more than pay for itself. How one can relate it to the bridge collapse seems like a gigantic reach.

Were mistakes made about the I-35 bridge? ABSOLUTELY. But leave the ballpark out of it. It will end up paying for itself, and IMHO is a smart investment by the state and city.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=15497"

[Tom]

Let the Twins pay for it if it is so important to you,
Do you put having a ball park above safe bridges?
If that are can afford 350 mil for a stupid stadium, it doens't need any tax money from me. I do not benefit from a bridge in your city, nor does most of the coutnry.

[Marlin]

So if they had replaced it, who would have paid for it? YOU! Now that it has collapsed, who will pay for it? YOU! Whats the difference? It may be cheaper now that the demoliton has been done for free. So maybe the collapse actually saved you money. I'm sure you will get a check in the mail in the near future. Oh BTW I don't live in Minnesota. I'm a Clevelander.

[GameTheory]

Let the Twins pay for it if it is so important to you,
Do you put having a ball park above safe bridges?
If that are can afford 350 mil for a stupid stadium, it doens't need any tax money from me. I do not benefit from a bridge in your city, nor does most of the coutnry.But if it is part of the interstate that trucks use (especially right in the middle of the country), that affects people all over the country because those trucks deliver things all over...

[JustRalph]

People are acting like a ballpark is a one time expense that is a waste of money. Will the new ballpark not create tax revenue? The Twins would have been long gone without a ballpark, the tax on the players salary alone will be huge. What about new businesses and new revenue to current business? I would think that the new ballpark would eventually more than pay for itself. How one can relate it to the bridge collapse seems like a gigantic reach.

Were mistakes made about the I-35 bridge? ABSOLUTELY. But leave the ballpark out of it. It will end up paying for itself, and IMHO is a smart investment by the state and city.

I suggest you look into this. There are several studies that contradict your theory. The Cincinnati story is one in particular that was sold on the theory you espouse. It turns out the area was fleeced. Look it up............

[dutchboy]

Tommy,

Now that us stupid folks in MN know what you think of our IQ level please run spell check on what you wrote. First read puts the number of errors at 20. After you do we can then determine who gets to wear the dunce hat.


I'm labeling the local government stupid. What I call stupid is the Katrina Syndrom. Everyone sits on their fat asses and waits for Uncle Sugar to bail them out. The point is, a major bridge in thier city is probably not safe, they knew it, they do nothing about it. They have the time to talk about subsidizing baseball - sport welfare, but just pretend notning is wrong and today, people are dead, and the rest of us are beid asked to pick up the bill. At what point does anyone take responsibility for thier own city???

If they have to spend that tax money on the new stadium, wouldn't a reasonable person say - fork it over, play inthe old park, oh, my gosh! let the damn Twins pick op the tab????? How many millions are going to pay grown ment to spit and scratch and chase little balls around a park while the infastructure crumbles artound them????

Minn is just the tip of the iceberg. I say this about every damn city in the country - take care of your own, I don't have the cash anymore.
To be fair, let me call Rochester NY as one of the stupidest cities in the nation ( 30 miles away). they bought a ferry to go back and forth to Totonto, cost millions, then could make it work, sold it, took a $42 million bath, and are on the hook to pay Toronto rent on the unused terminal there for the next 20 years (no wonder they have a new holiday!:D)
Menawhile, we have murderd on the streets about one a week - a lot for a city this size, and the interio of the ciuty looks like Beruit - a total rotted out disator area. Many building still have boarded windows from the race riots in 1964!

Point is, cities are getting far too much bail out from Uncle Sugar and it is high time to cut the cord and let them live or die on thier own. our tax dollars are being wasted by morons and idiots and crooks.

So, I will continue to use the term stupid.

[ceejay]

I would think that the new ballpark would eventually more than pay for itself.How so? Just curious.....

[Tom]

Dutchboy, That all you got? Typos? :lol:
Couldn't even address one point I made, huh? Perhaps "stupid" was too generous??

Put your finger back in that dyke until you have something to offer.
And please, do me a personal favor - drive over as many bridges as you can.

[bigmack]

The State of MN ponied up $70mil for that wretched structure. I was unfortunate enough to have attended both the '87 and '91 World Series and can attest that it has all the charm of a dentists office. Balls bouncing off the ground like concrete and louder than a scorned woman in biker bar.

As for the bridge, I drove over it many times and always questioned its integrity which gave me good reason to post-haste over it at speeds not commonly practiced by the local "Ya sure, you betcha" natives.

All in all the Feds have to pony up as it's the only good PR move they've been able to make in the last 2 years.