Interesting Article at DRF.com about DMR Poly

[Dave Schwartz]

Zayat says he's leaving grounds
By JAY PRIVMAN
DEL MAR, Calif. - The debate over the merits and consistency of Del Mar's new Polytrack surface reached a new level of discourse on Monday morning when prominent horse owner Ahmed Zayat and Del Mar's president Joe Harper got into an animated, and at times profane, discussion near the stable area racing office that abruptly ended with Zayat saying he was going to immediately remove his horses from the grounds.

A Baffert quote:
"Luckily he didn't grab himself," Baffert said Monday. "It's frustrating for me not to have the same track in the afternoon that we train on in the morning. It's good to train on in the morning. It's firm. In the afternoon, it's different. I've got a few that love it, but the rest can't get over it."


The rest of the article is here:
http://www.drf.com/news/article/87151.html

[JustRalph]

I am still amazed at the rush to install some form of poly...........rich owners are the ones who could bring it all crashing down......... :bang:

[kenwoodallpromos]

DM for the past week in the AM has been running solid high 49's average for 4f consistently, just not "Ca fast" as in ther past.
"Zayat said he was of the belief that "what distinguishes American racing is speed," but that Polytrack was "artificially slowing down" brilliant horses."
Someone needs to tell this guy that regular dirt tracks are totally artificial to a natural running surface of a horse, and especially in Ca have traditionally been artificially sped up for decades.
Someone should also explaint o him that TBreds are 1/2 Arabian, and tell him to send his horses to the Sahara to pound sand like Arabians do naturally. Or to consider that Tbreds are 1/2 English Standardbred and see hoe he like taking them to England, where most races are run on relatively slower grass, and most of the rest on rubber due to excessive injuries in recent years.
I'm not really surprised that his Quarterhorse trainer Baffert knocks the track's consistency; he is quoted elsewhere as saying that on dirt he wants until after the AM break to work his horses to make sure how the tracks are running, so he is picky anyway!

[ponyplayerdotca]

The unique part of the synthetic surface debate is that California tracks had installation LEGISLATED on them. They had to install one by end of 2007 of have their licence revoked (or something like that).

Turfway Park, Keeneland, Woodbine, Arlington, etc. all installed synthetic surfaces of their own volition.

I have to believe some (if not many) of those involved in California racing are none too happy about being forced to make their livelihood over this crap.

Hence, the shouting match that occurred.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The unique part of the synthetic surface debate is that California tracks had installation LEGISLATED on them. They had to install one by end of 2007 of have their licence revoked (or something like that).

Turfway Park, Keeneland, Woodbine, Arlington, etc. all installed synthetic surfaces of their own volition.

I have to believe some (if not many) of those involved in California racing are none too happy about being forced to make their livelihood over this crap.

Hence, the shouting match that occurred.
__________________
Yes, the leading trainer (Bob) at SA as of June 30 is forced to run vs larger fields on a track with more attendance and betting.
Los Alamitos still has dirt! He can voluntarily go there with his speed owner and his speed horses!
"Bob Baffert 21 2 2 3 $118,560 " Not to worry- Bob is 33% ITM!!
Baffert and the owner had plenty of warning that the tracks would be going to AW!

[bigmack]

The unique part of the synthetic surface debate is that California tracks had installation LEGISLATED on them. They had to install one by end of 2007 of have their licence revoked (or something like that).

Turfway Park, Keeneland, Woodbine, Arlington, etc. all installed synthetic surfaces of their own volition.
Legislation wasn't the only element that forced the hand of DMR:

There's 300 trainers here coming up and saying they like it," Harper said minutes later. "Nobody wants to see this succeed more than the guy who invented it. We can't have 20 deaths like we did last year. We'll be out of business.

[Rookies]

Polytrack is great for reducing injuries to the horses, but terrible for the industry, because, they are terrible for the bettor.

Very difficult to find form.

Today's winner (out of nowehere ) at 10-1 is next months's also ran. There does not appear to be progression and consistency.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Polytrack is great for reducing injuries to the horses, but terrible for the industry, because, they are terrible for the bettor.

Very difficult to find form.

Today's winner (out of nowehere ) at 10-1 is next months's also ran. There does not appear to be progression and consistency.
______________
How does the condition book itself instill consistency? If you want consistency, throw away the condition book with its weights, age, # of wins, and all other qualifications, and let any horse run any race.
It is the track's job to impede consistency; it is the bettors' job to sort out and find it again.
And do not forget the "industry" now includes slots money at many tracks.

[ELA]

The poly/cushion/synthetic track debate is a different issue as far as I am concerned. In this case here -- what are we really talking about? Is this is a polytrack issue, or a Baffert issue? I don't see Baffert, or Zayat for that matter, talking about field size or that everyone is training and racing over the same track.

Zayat has been in the game for a few years, however, in my opionion his justification here is very myopic and very off-base. Of course we can understand his complaining. I've spoke with someone who has worked horses for Baffert -- not an exercise rider, a jock -- and he's had the exact same discussion with Baffert on more than one occasion. I know what the deal is here, and I am sure many others here do as well.

Eric

[KingChas]

Someone needs to tell this guy that regular dirt tracks are totally artificial to a natural running surface of a horserunning

Let's see before we cowboys rounded up all these ponies ages ago they were running and racing each other on grass,dirt,stones,sand,water(cricks),weeds,hills and maybe even mountains.....etc.
Somehow they avoided holes,rocks,rattlesnakes and such.
They survived.
I don't think plastic was invented at that time :eek:
I could be wrong :rolleyes:

[highnote]

If ALL medicines were disallowed for, say, 6 weeks prior to racing, there would probably be far fewer breakdowns.

Too many horses are given pain relievers or injections in their joints to ease the pain while running. Is it any wonder they break down!

Since drug use on horses is not going to go away, polytrack at least gives a sore horse a better chance of not snapping a leg -- which has the unintended benefit of possibly saving a jockey's life.

Since horses run slower in the early part of the race on polytrack, maybe they won't put so much pressure on their lungs and the Lasix will be more effective, resulting in fewer horses returning to the paddock with blood dripping from their nostrils due to pulmonary hemmoraging.

Also the slower pace should help horses return from the race with less soreness. The slower pace means there is less chance that a horse that was administered pain masking medicine might run too fast, for too long (like they do on dirt) and suffer a catastrophic injury.

Keeping sore horses on the track for more races with the help of drugs and polytrack just makes good economic sense. Right? Afterall, it's all about the horse's well-being. No one wants to run a sore horse. Just give him a little juice -- a little cobra venom -- to take the edge off. This way, the owner's happy; the vet's happy; the trainer's happy; the bettors' are happy because the horse's form is predictable; the racetrack management is happy that there are full fields; jocks are happy they've got plenty of mounts; jocks agents are happy their clients have mounts. Everybody's happy ad infinitum. Ad nauseam?

And the horse -- well, if he's lucky he'll make it to a happy retirement with only some arthritis in the joints and some scarring on the lungs. Maybe he'll have had to endure laryngoplasty surgery that was meant to help him breath better during racing. Perhaps a screw or two will have been inserted into his shins so that his owner and trainer could get him get back to the races a few more times. But the expense of all the drugs and surgery and all the new artificial surfaces is worth it because it's what's best for the horse, isn't it?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Let's see before we cowboys rounded up all these ponies ages ago they were running and racing each other on grass,dirt,stones,sand,water(cricks),weeds,hills and maybe even mountains.....etc.
Somehow they avoided holes,rocks,rattlesnakes and such.
They survived.
I don't think plastic was invented at that time :eek:
I could be wrong :rolleyes:
________________
As you may know, limestone is used under the cushion of many racetracks; this link will give you and idea of how fast and hard limestone dries, and how it is used for buildings and in concrete because it is so hard. It is not the natural surface for horse to run on.

[highnote]

________________
As you may know, limestone is used under the cushion of many racetracks; this link will give you and idea of how fast and hard limestone dries, and how it is used for buildings and in concrete because it is so hard. It is not the natural surface for horse to run on.


Limestone and dolostone are at the surface in 25 percent of Kentucky.
http://www.uky.edu/KGS/coal/webindmn/pages/lime.htm

Makes you wonder why KY breds do so well as racehorses.

Maybe it's KY's liberal drug policies?

[john del riccio]

I was just having this discussion yesterday. All Polytracks don't appear to be made equally. I find that AP is the most consistent. HOL was somewhat erratic but not as much as WO. DMR seems to be following the inconsisyent suit thus far. It appears that just like a conventional dirt surface, it appears to change via the environmental factors as well as track maintennace. Withthat said, I still think tha the jocks are the primary influnce on many of these paceless races.

John

[pandy]

I agree with you, Baffert and his loud mouth owner are nothing more than cry babies. The dirt tracks they ran on in the past did not represent a realistic racing surface. Cheap speed would stretch out and speed pop all the time, especially from the rail. Now, on the Polytrack and Cushion Track, cheap speed doesn't have a prayer in routes, and even in sprints you are better off taking the presser or stalker that can finish over the one dimensional speedball. And of course at Del Mar the track was brutal on the horses, many breakdowns. One racing writer who thought that the Polytrack was unpredictable wrote something like, "Thank God Saratoga is opening, we can get back to racing on good old dirt." Better watch what you wish for! The racing at the Spa has been far more unpredictable than Del Mar. Saratoga is no longer the speed laden strip of the Cordero era. The track is deep and tiring and when you combine that with the wide open races, it's a handicapper's nightmare. I don't see any problem at all with the racing at Del Mar. The best horses are still going to win regardless of what they run on. Baffert lost his two biggest spending owners in recent years and he just doesn't have the stock he used to.

[classhandicapper]

Withthat said, I still think tha the jocks are the primary influnce on many of these paceless races.

John

I think you are correct, but I think it's competency. They realize that if they run as hard early as they used to on dirt, they'll have a much more tired horse at the end. So the relative paces (adjusted for track speed of course) are slower.

To me, it's also no shock that certain trainers hate the stuff and vice versa.

A different type of horse seems to prefer Poly to Dirt.

If you have a barn full of even paced horses, plodders, turfers, and don't train for speed you are probably doing fine.

If you have a barn full of speedy pedigrees/horses and like to train them in 45, 58, etc... to get them sharp you are probably not so happy right about now.

These are the kinds of things that weren't thought out well before the rush.

Even worse is that there are obviously breeders and owners that are taking a monumental bath on their investments right now even though they may not realize it yet. They made investments in dirt pedigrees that now have fewer opportunities to race for big money and earn black type over dirt, thus reducing their value.

Personally, I always thought legislating POLY was idiotic. To me, it wouldn't even matter if I agreed that it was the correct way to go. It may well be best even though I hate watching the races because they lack both the testing early speed battles of dirt and the furious finishes of turf .

However, who could be dumber about racing than a bunch of outsiders and/or politicians? They prove their idiocy on a daily basis when it comes to things they should know something about.

These decisions should be made by the tracks, horsemen, owners, and the fans etc....

[pandy]

I'm surprised that you don't think the Poly track races are exciting. I find it just the opposite, there are more close finishes and many more came-from-behind winners as opposed to speed horses going wire to wire and winning easily. I've always felt that closers are more exciting to watch than front runners. On Polytrack, the jockeys have to use their heads. They can't just bust out of the gate whipping and slashing the way they used to at Santa Anita and hope that they clear in :21 and hang on.

[classhandicapper]

I'm surprised that you don't think the Poly track races are exciting. I find it just the opposite, there are more close finishes and many more came-from-behind winners as opposed to speed horses going wire to wire and winning easily. I've always felt that closers are more exciting to watch than front runners. On Polytrack, the jockeys have to use their heads. They can't just bust out of the gate whipping and slashing the way they used to at Santa Anita and hope that they clear in :21 and hang on.

The visual appearance of the races doesn't get me excited.

When I see two brilliant speed horses really extending themselves on the front end and then that gets verified by the clock when they post the fractions, I get progressively more excited to see which is going to crack first and whether one of them has the deep reserves required to repulse the challenge and then hold off the closers. When one does, that is great racing. Some of the great Met Miles of the past for example gave me chills. I don't like biased racing (except from a gambling point of view) where cheap horses can wire. I like high quality visually impressive racing.

I can also appreciate high quality turf racing because so many of the finishes are so visually impressive. The horses are often super extending themselves through the stretch to come home brilliantly fast to get up.

When I watch Poly races, it looks like a bunch of plodders on the front end and in the back of the pack regardless of where the winner comes from or how close the finishes are. They all stagger home.

Maybe I need to watch more of it, but I rarely make it past the first couple at Del Mar without reaffirming my view.

To me, Poly is just a bandaid for the real problem. We really need drug free racing like the rest of the world.

[Hosshead]

I'm surprised that you don't think the Poly track races are exciting. I find it just the opposite, there are more close finishes and many more came-from-behind winners as opposed to speed horses going wire to wire and winning easily. Right on, it was getting too easy finding horses going wire to wire, winning by open daylight. - Dirt-y money.
I was ashamed to even spend it.
Not like that clean Rubber Money.
What we need is more of a challenge, more photo finishes so we can actually use those hundredths of a sec. we now have access to in our handicapping.
Yeah, that's it. Be a man, pick those noses on the wire !
I can feel my bankroll getting exicited already !!

[CapperLou]

IMO poly tracks are not a good thing for racing. Pedigrees don't mean much anymore, millions spent by breeders and buyers of yearlings are all question marks at this point and it goes on and on. Simply put, I'm against it.

It has been hard enough to beat the takeout and be profitable, but I really question as to whether or not I can "win" over the long haul on poly. Only time will tell.

I have cut my wagering in half or more over the last year and change because I am not playing these surfaces now. Playing them in the future will depend on what my database results of my type of plays show.

With all that's going on concerning online wagering, the politics involved, the racinos being created etc etc--the future of horse racing as we have known it looks bleak to say the least. JMHO--wish it was different!!

CapperLou

[pandy]

I know how you guys feel because change is sometimes hard to take. Years ago, as some of you know, I did Harness Racing picks for Sports Eye (now Harness Eye) and then came out with my own tip sheet, Pandy's Picks, for flats and trots. At the NY harness tracks my Best Bets showed a flat bet profit of over 25% for 7 years running. This is the truth, I was actually shown the stats by a fan of mine who kept records. I accomplished this, of course, by picking longshot winners. But just when you think you've got it mastered, the racing gods step in and change something. A big change happened in harness racing called The Modified Sulky. Basically, they eliminated the wooden sulkys and started to make the bikes lighter and more streamlined. As each year went on, the bikes got lighter and lighter and this changed Harness Racing drastically. All of a sudden, instead of 33% winning favorites and lots of closers, speed began to dominate on the half mile tracks and the favorites started winning 38 to 40% of the races. Since I was a longshot player this change really soured me on betting harness races and I turned to thoroughbreds. However, this year I decided to get back to my roots and I started to bet harness racing every day again. I've won all 7 months and have gotten good prices including a $40 winner recently. Of course the slot money has helped make the races more competitive, and simulcasting has helped because I'm not forced to bet just the Meadowlands or Yonkers. But my point is, change can be tough when you are used to a certain type of racing, and then all of a sudden it changes dramatically. But you can make adjustments.

[DeanT]

I agree Bob.

If Poly in two or three years makes 8 horse fields 10 horse fields, with horses racing 20% more races each, it can grow the bet and make the game stronger.

Not to mention I might be a gambler, but I am a horse lover and owner too. Anything that protects the animal and grows the bet I will be behind, even if I must change.

[JustRalph]

IMO poly tracks are not a good thing for racing. Pedigrees don't mean much anymore, millions spent by breeders and buyers of yearlings are all question marks at this point and it goes on and on. Simply put, I'm against it.

It has been hard enough to beat the takeout and be profitable, but I really question as to whether or not I can "win" over the long haul on poly. Only time will tell.

I have cut my wagering in half or more over the last year and change because I am not playing these surfaces now. Playing them in the future will depend on what my database results of my type of plays show.

Lou, you took the words right out of my mouth. I am pretty busy nowadays, but when I do get time to play........I don't look at Poly unless I have to. I have made a little money at Arlington, but nothing like previous years.......and I am playing about 10% as much as previous years. It doesn't all have to do with poly.......but I am not enthused about it at all.............

[highnote]

Lou, you took the words right out of my mouth. I am pretty busy nowadays, but when I do get time to play........I don't look at Poly unless I have to. I have made a little money at Arlington, but nothing like previous years.......and I am playing about 10% as much as previous years. It doesn't all have to do with poly.......but I am not enthused about it at all.............


I also agree.

[PaceAdvantage]

Polytrack is great for reducing injuries to the horses, but terrible for the industry, because, they are terrible for the bettor.

The following quote from the original post in this thread pretty much throws your theory into the garbage can:

Zayat says he's leaving grounds
By JAY PRIVMAN
DEL MAR, Calif. - The debate over the merits and consistency of Del Mar's new Polytrack surface reached a new level of discourse on Monday morning when prominent horse owner Ahmed Zayat and Del Mar's president Joe Harper got into an animated, and at times profane, discussion near the stable area racing office that abruptly ended with Zayat saying he was going to immediately remove his horses from the grounds.

Zayat ain't no frustrated handicapper....In addition, haven't the tracks that have installed Polytrack seen an INCREASE in handle with the fuller fields, etc. etc. Again, that pokes holes in your theory, since it's the handicappers who are wagering MORE, not LESS.....

This isn't about handicapping or Beyer speed figures. This is about a rush to install something that needed to be STUDIED for a number of years, preferably on a couple of smaller "test" tracks.

The industry is going to get exactly what it deserves if this thing blows up. It blew up at Woodbine, but I guess they are just going to keep throwing money at it hoping they finally "get it right"

You have to wonder who it is who is getting rich off of promoting and/or installing Polytrack and/or some of its derivatives such as Cushion Track....

[Good4Now]

The final two sentences of your post above say it quite well.

We are hard wired not to change, but change we must.

[Stillriledup]

The following quote from the original post in this thread pretty much throws your theory into the garbage can:



Zayat ain't no frustrated handicapper....In addition, haven't the tracks that have installed Polytrack seen an INCREASE in handle with the fuller fields, etc. etc. Again, that pokes holes in your theory, since it's the handicappers who are wagering MORE, not LESS.....

This isn't about handicapping or Beyer speed figures. This is about a rush to install something that needed to be STUDIED for a number of years, preferably on a couple of smaller "test" tracks.

The industry is going to get exactly what it deserves if this thing blows up. It blew up at Woodbine, but I guess they are just going to keep throwing money at it hoping they finally "get it right"

You have to wonder who it is who is getting rich off of promoting and/or installing Polytrack and/or some of its derivatives such as Cushion Track....


We're ALL getting rich. Horseplayers are getting rich because they find Polytrack easier to beat, Trainers feel their horses show their true form more on plastic, owners are raking in the bucks hand over fist because of sounder horses, the tracks are getting rich because Todd Pletcher and other east coast trainers are flocking west to pack the entry box, the state is getting rich because of the large betting handles, stoopers are getting rich because other people in racing are so rich that 100 dollar bills routinely fall out of their pockets onto the ground and they don't even notice, breeders are getting rich because owners are breeting to synthetic sires and the list goes on and on and on. Its just an embarrassment of riches.

[gm10]

The following quote from the original post in this thread pretty much throws your theory into the garbage can:



Zayat ain't no frustrated handicapper....In addition, haven't the tracks that have installed Polytrack seen an INCREASE in handle with the fuller fields, etc. etc. Again, that pokes holes in your theory, since it's the handicappers who are wagering MORE, not LESS.....

This isn't about handicapping or Beyer speed figures. This is about a rush to install something that needed to be STUDIED for a number of years, preferably on a couple of smaller "test" tracks.

The industry is going to get exactly what it deserves if this thing blows up. It blew up at Woodbine, but I guess they are just going to keep throwing money at it hoping they finally "get it right"

You have to wonder who it is who is getting rich off of promoting and/or installing Polytrack and/or some of its derivatives such as Cushion Track....

It blew up at Woodbine??? I thought they are actually doing very well thank you very much.

A few more remarks. Synthetic surfaces are FASTER than dirt. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. THEY ARE FASTER, NOT SLOWER.

Also, the betting public is doing just as well on the synthetic surfaces as on the dirt.

[PaceAdvantage]

It blew up at Woodbine??? I thought they are actually doing very well thank you very much.Not at the time that was written OVER TWO YEARS AGO.

They had TONS of trouble at Woodbine. How many times did they have to dig it up and reinstall that track?

[CincyHorseplayer]

I have only 2 things to add.

While dirt is comprised of different elements,differing by geography,in most instances mother nature allows them to form a cohesive whole.If these surfaces are failing now and "wear out" over time,which has been evident,how do they ever expect to get them to a point of consistency when they are made up of varied and dominantly man made elements?I thought Harper's statement underlined this reality and it sounded as ridiculous as it is "This is a safety issue for us," Harper said. "I'd love to see the track tighten up in the afternoon. Do we need more wax? That's possible. Do we need more fiber? That's possible. Do we need jelly cables? That's possible."


And does any horseplayer NOT appreciate the virtues of any creature that runs?That the most talented of runners put themselves in a position to win by running fast,staying out of traffic trouble,and not losing ground?

Do you really like that superior horses are penalized and lesser runners are moved up?

I think the answer to this lies in what some have criticized as bettability of dirt races.Only in rare cases does speed become ridiculously dominant to where every race is run in the same wire to wire fashion.What you are seeing mostly are the attributes above.Horses that are quick enough to stay near the front of a race has the inherent skills to win more races to the slow breaking,pace challenged,plodder types.

And I think deep within all the rationalizations I've heard is the ever present,eternal whine,of cranky players that haven't evolved enough to beat the game even occasionally.That we have even fields for the reasons stated above,that there is a compromise to the nature of the game itself,that surface switch,now that there are 3 or 4 different ones add a requisite unpredictability to reality,that 2-1 shot the player above might have when he actually cashes now might be 7/2.It is perceived as a ray of hope.Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Marginally higher mutuels will not offset the drop in hit rate and cash rate.Consistency in surfaces is necessary to build the foundation of a winning game IMO.It doesn't affect me very much because of location.I've won races on all the synthetic surfaces except for Arlington and Woodbine,only because I've never played them.But I've seen enough inconsistency race to race,day to day,and a big increase of the "WTF" factor,to care not to play them at all or very infrequently.But how they affect the game itself overall has been dominantly negatively.

[Show Me the Wire]

.................................................. ..............

A few more remarks. Synthetic surfaces are FASTER than dirt. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. THEY ARE FASTER, NOT SLOWER.

Also, the betting public is doing just as well on the synthetic surfaces as on the dirt.

:ThmbUp: They are faster, becasue, I believe, fatigue is is not a predominant factor, as it is on dirt.

Additionlly, the lessening of fatigue more than likely makes the AWS safer. I say safer based on the Blood Horse article, which states that the current studies in the pipeline will shed a favorable light on the safety of AWS tracks.

[Tom]

Now I don't agree with that - I think you need more stamina on poly.
I pay much more attention to fitness on poly than I do on dirt.

[gm10]

Not at the time that was written OVER TWO YEARS AGO.

They had TONS of trouble at Woodbine. How many times did they have to dig it up and reinstall that track?

Well they are doing very well now. Handle was up 10% last year. The surface was safe and consistent. I think WOO and GG have very nice surfaces. They are much more consistent that your AQU or CD.

[gm10]

Now I don't agree with that - I think you need more stamina on poly.
I pay much more attention to fitness on poly than I do on dirt.

I don't think it's stamina, really. Ravens Pass for example certainly didn't have the stamina that Curlin has. I don't pay much attention to stamina anyway. I look at distance suitability of course, but that goes for every surface.

[andymays]

When run to the manufacturers specifications synthetic surfaces are much slower.

Part of the problem with them is that the Tracks try to make them play like dirt by working them and watering them to speed them up. When they do that some are faster than dirt.

They need to decide what they're really looking for.

[Show Me the Wire]

My attribution should be to the Thoroughbred Daily News article, not Blood Horse.

[Show Me the Wire]

When run to the manufacturers specifications synthetic surfaces are much slower............................................ ..............

.

Any you know this how? Where is the empirical data to support your assertion?

[Show Me the Wire]

Now I don't agree with that - I think you need more stamina on poly.
I pay much more attention to fitness on poly than I do on dirt.

I agree a horse needs to be fit. My position is a fit horse does not experience the same amount of fatigue as it would on dirt.

[andymays]

Any you know this how? Where is the empirical data to support your assertion?


If we're gonna go down this road for the hundredth time when have you ever supported anything you say with empiriacal data to support your assertions?

There was evidence supported in another thread. Go ahead and look for it.

[Show Me the Wire]

If we're gonna go down this road for the hundredth time when have you ever supported anything you say with empiriacal data to support your assertions?

There was evidence supported in another thread. Go ahead and look for it.


The difference is when I voice a belief unsupported without facts, I say it is my beleif, you state your beliefs as facts. So if you are making factual statements, like about manufacturer's specifications, I want the facts to back it up.

[andymays]

The difference is when I voice a belief unsupported without facts, I say it is my beleif, you state your beliefs as facts. So if you are making factual statements, like about manufacturer's specifications, I want the facts to back it up.


I answered the specific question you asked in another thread. It was about a track in Australia thinking about replacing turf with Pro Ride. The specification were in it. Go find it!

[Show Me the Wire]

I answered the specific question you asked in another thread. It was about a track in Australia thinking about replacing turf with Pro Ride. The specification were in it. Go find it!


The posting was about a different composition, but not about the glibness or lack of glibness. No doubt SAnta Anita did something incorrect, especially regarding the drainage system. Santa Anita's error does not invalidate a surface. The other AWS had no problems with drainage. Also, do you know if Hollywood and Del Mar installed the surface and infrastructure according to the manufacturer's specifications and how their respective installations effected the glibness of the track?

[Show Me the Wire]

Quickly, I will state why I feel AWS are safer from a fatigue viewpoint. The quick starts in sprint races result in stressful physical exertion on the animal’s limbs, joints and pulmonary system. Every time that animal races it uses up precious lung tissue, especially, when asked to exert rapid acceleration from the gate. Rapid acceleration from the gate is a necessity in dirt racing this over exertion adds to the fatigue induced by dirt, which is a fatiguing surface. This toll mounts with each and every start.

Gaining the lead is not the tactical advantage on AWS as it is on dirt. Horses are asked for less physical exertion at the start, resulting in less stress on limbs, joints and the all important pulmonary system. Less exertion at the start should translate to more energy available longer into the race over a less demanding surface. Over all a lesser toll results each and every start.

My assumption regarding fatigue and AWS is basedon a physiological standpoint and not blind adherence to a particular surface.

[Tom]

Well, that was nice, a 2 year break from hostilities.
Like an armistice.

;):lol:

[46zilzal]

I am still amazed at the rush to install some form of poly...........rich owners are the ones who could bring it all crashing down......... :bang:
I have it on good authority that many of these same fellows are BIG stock holders in these same companies. Start a trend and cash it seems to have been the mantra

[Tom]

I have it on good authority that many of these same fellows are BIG stock holders in these same companies. Start a trend and cash it seems to have been the mantra

Deja vous...where have I heard that scheme before?
Hmmm, tell me when I'm getting WARMER?
:D

[andymays]

Does everone realize this thread is over two years old?

[Show Me the Wire]

Does everone realize this thread is over two years old?

I noticed that fact.

[tzipi]

Right on, it was getting too easy finding horses going wire to wire, winning by open daylight. - Dirt-y money.
I was ashamed to even spend it.
Not like that clean Rubber Money.
What we need is more of a challenge, more photo finishes so we can actually use those hundredths of a sec. we now have access to in our handicapping.
Yeah, that's it. Be a man, pick those noses on the wire !
I can feel my bankroll getting exicited already !!



I'm not sure if post was a joke. God, I hope so! :D

[Show Me the Wire]

Deja vous...where have I heard that scheme before?
Hmmm, tell me when I'm getting WARMER?
:D


Woodbine, Zilly and Stillriledup are in the mix.

[Stillriledup]

Does everone realize this thread is over two years old?
What's a couple years amongst friends? :lol: