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point given
07-19-2007, 10:52 AM
Curlin, Hard Spun, + :jump:
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Any Given Saturday to Haskell


"Any Given Saturday, the impressive winner of the Dwyer Stakes on July 4, will likely make his next start in the Grade 1, $1 million Haskell Invitational at Monmouth Park on Aug. 5, Pletcher said Wednesday.
Pletcher noted that the presence of Street Sense in the Jim Dandy and Curlin in the Haskell makes choosing between the two spots "a tough call." He and Any Given Saturday's owners, the WinStar Farm, chose the Haskell because it's a Grade 1 and its $1 million purse is double that of the Jim Dandy, run on July 29. Also, Pletcher and WinStar won the Haskell last year with Bluegrass Cat.

"That doesn't mean he can't come back three weeks later in the Travers, but we'll play that by ear as we go along," Pletcher said. "You're either going to have to run against Street Sense in the Jim Dandy or Curlin in the Haskell. If you're going to pick your spots, you might as well run for more money."

tomcalta
07-19-2007, 11:06 AM
I betcha Tiago comes too... though i dont think he can hang with this crew.

OTM Al
07-19-2007, 11:09 AM
Any Given Saturday was my #2 pick for the Derby until he got that abysmal post draw. Still thought he ran a very good race there and came back to show it in the Dwyer. Find it interesting that the top ones would rather face Curlin than Street Sense.....

DanG
07-19-2007, 11:26 AM
Any Given Saturday was my #2 pick for the Derby until he got that abysmal post draw. Still thought he ran a very good race there and came back to show it in the Dwyer. Find it interesting that the top ones would rather face Curlin than Street Sense.....
Ditto Al…

With each passing day I’m more impressed with Street Sense. My personal feeling is he’s a much better colt than the masses are giving him credit for.

tomcalta
07-19-2007, 11:54 AM
Double the purse for the haskell over JD. And still enough rest before Travers.

PS... Speaking of SS:

Kentucky Derby winner Street Sense blazed through a sensational workout Thursday morning at Churchill Downs when going five furlongs in 57.40 seconds under regular rider Calvin Borel.

Working prior to the mid-morning harrow break, and with Borel knuckling down but not using his whip, Street Sense proceeded through fractions of 12.20, 24.20, 35.60, and 47.40 seconds, meaning he went from the eighth pole to the wire in an astounding 10 seconds.

The official six-furlong gallop-out time was 1:09.80. Backside observers then caught the colt galloping out further in an unofficial 1:22-and-change for seven furlongs and 1:36-and-change for a mile.

From: http://www.drf.com/news/article/86794.html

the_fat_man
07-19-2007, 12:28 PM
Find it interesting that the top ones would rather face Curlin than Street Sense.....

Let me DEBUNK it for you (and the rest). Or maybe we can just READ Pletcher's quote: more money AND a Grade I.

In other words, he rather run for MORE MONEY and a chance at a GRADE I cause he knows AGS is NOT WINNING the TRAVERS, where he'd have to hook both Curlin and SS (and the filly?).

classhandicapper
07-19-2007, 01:18 PM
more money AND a Grade I.

In other words, he rather run for MORE MONEY and a chance at a GRADE I cause he knows AGS is NOT WINNING the TRAVERS, where he'd have to hook both Curlin and SS (and the filly?).

Exactly.

If you are going to take a shot against 1 of 2 colts that are probably better, you might as well go for more money and take your shot at Grade 1 status when they are prepping for the Travers rather than face both of them at 100% in the Travers.

I don't think this choice says much about who he thinks is better.

DanG
07-19-2007, 01:30 PM
Fats; (and any other Culin fans in a head to head matchup)

Baring any unforeseen mishaps, I have a feeling we have a private bet when SS and Curlin next meet. That’s assuming you like Curlin at even stakes. ;)

Can we say this over the internet without the “gambling police” knocking on our doors! :eek:

I love matchup bets, match races…heck even Gene Rayburn on Match game was tolerable. :D

http://www.post-gazette.com/images4/20070520preakness0520_450.jpg

PS: PLEASE don’t take this as a knock on Curlin…Top class animal in every way. :ThmbUp:

the_fat_man
07-19-2007, 01:58 PM
Fats; (and any other Culin fans in a head to head matchup)

Baring any unforeseen mishaps, I have a feeling we have a private bet when SS and Curlin next meet. That’s assuming you like Curlin at even stakes. ;)

Can we say this over the internet without the “gambling police” knocking on our doors! :eek:



I was going to PM you Sat night and inquire whether you thought Shakis was better than Trippi's Storm. More precisely, which of the two would put in the better run in the stretch. What would your response have been?

DanG
07-19-2007, 04:39 PM
I was going to PM you Sat night and inquire whether you thought Shakis was better than Trippi's Storm. More precisely, which of the two would put in the better run in the stretch. What would your response have been?
This is impossible to answer without looking like a major red board, but that can’t be helped. I assume you’re posing this question because I picked Shakis in his last.

I keyed Trippi’s Storm and used Shakis and Sunriver defensively this time. Shakis fit a pattern I love with McLaughlin in his last start and I thought I could get 8-1. This time he’s a known commodity with very different circumstances. Now he’s 3rd lasix and at 7yo I wasn’t as confident he would fire his best shot without a perfect setup.

I think we both have had positive notes on the 4yo Trippi and the longer Frank Alexander is into a form cycle…the better. They both came out of their last race very differently as well as Trippi showed in the am. He was also about 6x the price so the bet was a no brainier.

Does this mean we don’t have a head to head bet on SS vs. Curlin? ;)

the_fat_man
07-19-2007, 04:51 PM
I'm still convinced that Gomez' taking Trippi to the lead last out SCREWED him up in the stake, as he was a bit rank early and too close to the pace. I needed an XTRA ride in the park that day to get over what should've been a HOME RUN and turned into a SINGLE.

I have no problem taking Curlin over SS. I think he's a better horse.

Where it gets interesting (in other words, what determines whether I'll actually have an opinion/interest in the race) is WHICH Curlin shows up for the Travers. If it's the horse I saw in OAK, the one that can hang with the pace, get good position and move when called on, he'll have no problem beating SS.
If the plodding, unathletic Curlin (of the Derby, Preakness and Belmont) shows up, then I need to worry about who's in the race, what kind of setup he'll get, and have to rely on SS hanging and Curlin getting in gear early enough.

Hopefully, the Haskell will address this issue.

OTM Al
07-19-2007, 04:59 PM
Its the same Curlin. He just had no competition at Oaklawn. Made him look much better than he is (though he is awfully good). You told me he was going to blow the field away in the Preakness and that no one else had a chance in the Belmont. Now you are saying his Derby run was bad too? Funny, I thought he was pretty good in all of those races. There's just a couple of boys (and a girl) out there that are as good as he is and I still thinks SS is a tad better too.

NYPlayer
07-19-2007, 06:32 PM
...Find it interesting that the top ones would rather face Curlin than Street Sense.....

I guess Pletcher thinks that if his filly can beat Curlin....



...anybody can?

classhandicapper
07-19-2007, 08:00 PM
I have no problem taking Curlin over SS. I think he's a better horse.

Where it gets interesting (in other words, what determines whether I'll actually have an opinion/interest in the race) is WHICH Curlin shows up for the Travers. If it's the horse I saw in OAK, the one that can hang with the pace, get good position and move when called on, he'll have no problem beating SS.
If the plodding, unathletic Curlin (of the Derby, Preakness and Belmont) shows up, then I need to worry about who's in the race, what kind of setup he'll get, and have to rely on SS hanging and Curlin getting in gear early enough.

Hopefully, the Haskell will address this issue.

I think you also have to worry about the fact that SS did not run in the Belmont and is using the Jim Dandy as a springboard to another peak effort in the Travers by a masterful trainer.

He will be the fresher horse.

My guess is that Curlin was a tired horse coming out of the Belmont and it will be tougher to get a new peak out of him in the Travers than for SS.

the_fat_man
07-19-2007, 08:15 PM
I think you also have to worry about the fact that SS did not run in the Belmont and is using the Jim Dandy as a springboard to another peak effort in the Travers by a masterful trainer.

He will be the fresher horse.

My guess is that Curlin was a tired horse coming out of the Belmont and it will be tougher to get a new peak out of him in the Travers than for SS.

You should head over to derbytrail forum and read some of DrugS' comments on Curlin. How Asmussen has basically converted him from a speed ball (1st out) to a plodder by slowing him down in the morning. He's right on about this. This Curlin can certainly push the BIGGER GEAR. But, as it's bigger, he can't get (it) started as quick as the other others, and certainly loses his advantage in a paceless race.

We need to see the 'old' Curlin in the upcoming races. Or, expect very good setups.

Edward DeVere
07-19-2007, 08:27 PM
I love matchup bets, match races…heck even Gene Rayburn on Match game was tolerable. :D

http://www.post-gazette.com/images4/20070520preakness0520_450.jpg



Gene Rayburn on The Match Game was GREAT!

JustRalph
07-20-2007, 01:04 AM
Gene Rayburn on The Match Game was GREAT!

Any video of the Street Sense Workout? ONline?


Match Game-Family Guy Style

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bnllpWoQ0JA

ghostyapper
07-20-2007, 09:19 AM
I'm still convinced that Gomez' taking Trippi to the lead last out SCREWED him up in the stake, as he was a bit rank early and too close to the pace. I needed an XTRA ride in the park that day to get over what should've been a HOME RUN and turned into a SINGLE.

I have no problem taking Curlin over SS. I think he's a better horse.

Where it gets interesting (in other words, what determines whether I'll actually have an opinion/interest in the race) is WHICH Curlin shows up for the Travers. If it's the horse I saw in OAK, the one that can hang with the pace, get good position and move when called on, he'll have no problem beating SS.
If the plodding, unathletic Curlin (of the Derby, Preakness and Belmont) shows up, then I need to worry about who's in the race, what kind of setup he'll get, and have to rely on SS hanging and Curlin getting in gear early enough.

Hopefully, the Haskell will address this issue.

OTM is right, the only difference in performance from his oaklawn races to his triple crown races was his competition. Can't figure out how you can call curlin unathletic after watching the tc races.

It did take him some time to change leads down the stretch of the preakness but lets not forget he still got there despite street sense's perfect trip and setup.