Jockey Integrity

[john del riccio]

I was informed of an incident that is under investigation that I thought may be of interest to some players here. I horse was shipped to DEL to run in a grass event for a tag. This horse had an above average record on the lawn and was
very consistent. The horse was not shipped with his regular jock and one of the leading riders at DEL got the call. He ran unbeleivably bad. When the jock retruned to the paddock, he informed the trainer that the horse didn't like the grass. Then the second slap in the face occured, the horse was claimed.
But he wasn't claimed by just anone, he was claimed by a barn that this particular jockey rides first call for. The stewrds were contacted and they subsequently spoke to thw jockey who then changed his story to "the horse was sore".

Now we as handicpappers are going to look at thgis horse when he runs back and ask "why was his last race so bad ?".

How would you feel if you previously owned that horse and got stiffed in a race you had every chance to win only to see him claimed away and you got no purse money. If this was corporate America, the jock would be terminated.

If this was my old neighborhood, well, termination would be the jockey's punishment of choice....

John

[cj]

Delaware is the current leader in racing shenanigans. There is way too much money being given out for the quality of racing. I don't trust any horses shipping out of Delaware. I guess I should be leery of those shipping in as well.

[jotb]

I was informed of an incident that is under investigation that I thought may be of interest to some players here. I horse was shipped to DEL to run in a grass event for a tag. This horse had an above average record on the lawn and was
very consistent. The horse was not shipped with his regular jock and one of the leading riders at DEL got the call. He ran unbeleivably bad. When the jock retruned to the paddock, he informed the trainer that the horse didn't like the grass. Then the second slap in the face occured, the horse was claimed.
But he wasn't claimed by just anone, he was claimed by a barn that this particular jockey rides first call for. The stewrds were contacted and they subsequently spoke to thw jockey who then changed his story to "the horse was sore".

Now we as handicpappers are going to look at thgis horse when he runs back and ask "why was his last race so bad ?".


How would you feel if you previously owned that horse and got stiffed in a race you had every chance to win only to see him claimed away and you got no purse money. If this was corporate America, the jock would be terminated.

If this was my old neighborhood, well, termination would be the jockey's punishment of choice....

John\


Hello John:

I think this trainer should have went to someone else because the combination has not been a match made in heaven. Since 2002 this jock has rode only 8 times with 1 win and 1 third. The horse figured in the race given the fact the horse also won over the track the previous time for the same condition. This crap does happen from time to time and if it continues to happen to other trainers it will spread so fast around the track and the jock will be labeled by everyone. His business will thin out if it continues to happen.

How in the world can he have told the trainer that the horse disliked the turf is beyond me. Then he tells the stewards the horse was sore. The horse probably didn't have a pimple on him. We will see how this horse runs next time. Only time will tell. If this horse is that sore, I would be surprised if the jock takes the call the next time. He is now caught in a catch 22.

Joe

[john del riccio]

\


Hello John:

I think this trainer should have went to someone else because the combination has not been a match made in heaven. Since 2002 this jock has rode only 8 times with 1 win and 1 third. The horse figured in the race given the fact the horse also won over the track the previous time for the same condition. This crap does happen from time to time and if it continues to happen to other trainers it will spread so fast around the track and the jock will be labeled by everyone. His business will thin out if it continues to happen.

How in the world can he have told the trainer that the horse disliked the turf is beyond me. Then he tells the stewards the horse was sore. The horse probably didn't have a pimple on him. We will see how this horse runs next time. Only time will tell. If this horse is that sore, I would be surprised if the jock takes the call the next time. He is now caught in a catch 22.

Joe

I would have bet my lungs you would have known exactly who I was talking about. You are scarey good.

john

[john del riccio]

Delaware is the current leader in racing shenanigans. There is way too much money being given out for the quality of racing. I don't trust any horses shipping out of Delaware. I guess I should be leery of those shipping in as well.

CJ,

I could tell you about stuff at DEL that would make your head spin but since you make figs, I'll bet you already are aware of what I am speaking about. Several years ago, that place should have been named Pharmesutical Downs. Its still bad bvut no where near as much.

John

[Greyfox]

The incident smells fishy.
But hardly enough evidence to do anything about it.
That would be the last time that jockey would ride for me.
The jockey's explanation is not impossible. Maybe the horse
was sore and maybe it didn't like the grass today. How a jockey
can read a horse's view of the situation is beyond my capabilities.
Behaviorally, the horse just did not bring his A game today.

[ryesteve]

What exactly did the jockey stand to gain by stiffing this horse?

[tomcalta]

Why would a jock do something like that? Had the horse raced good or bad would not have made a difference to the new owner/trainer that claimed the horse; the horse still would have been claimed. Maybe they would getter better odds on him the next time he raced? I don't understand.

[SMOO]

Why would a jock do something like that? Had the horse raced good or bad would not have made a difference to the new owner/trainer that claimed the horse; the horse still would have been claimed. Maybe they would getter better odds on him the next time he raced? I don't understand.
Saved the horse for his 1st race with the new barn AND increased his odds. I'm guessing same jock gets the mount + a win ticket.

[ryesteve]

Saved the horse for his 1st race with the new barn AND increased his odds. I'm guessing same jock gets the mount + a win ticket.
If that's a strong enough motive, then we must be seeing horses stiffed in every race.

[tomcalta]

It doesnt seem worth putting one's reputation and integrity on the line for something like that. I dont know if i believe it. If it's true, who would ever give this guy mounts?

[john del riccio]

My reply to some of the questions......

What he has to gain is by not letting the horse run, he saves him for the first start for the new barn, gets a "workout" over the course, and higher odds for a potential wager next time. He has an allegiance to his local connections, not the shipping in connections. This is why whenever you see a horse ship in WITH his regular jock, make a note of it. They want to get the purse and if you think that outfits aside from the BIG guys don't get the short end of the stick by shipping in without a regular jock, you may be missing something. It happens frequently. As to whether this jock will ever ride for this trainer again, only if he
can take a beating.....

John

PS Its actually better to use a no name jock when shipping in if your regular rider can't make it. You are mor elikely to get a fair shake because they are hungrier. This kinda stuff really annoys me.

[Grits]

CJ,

Several years ago, that place should have been named Pharmesutical Downs.



There are so many guys here doing the promo thing, I get y'all confused. So, I clicked on the avatar for Woodside, etc. I see the photo of a guy--is this John Del Riccio?

If so, John, you don't even look old enough to remember, or to use the terminology "Several years ago".

You look 18 years old. LOLOL

[DanG]

What he has to gain is by not letting the horse run, he saves him for the first start for the new barn, gets a "workout" over the course, and higher odds for a potential wager next time. He has an allegiance to his local connections, not the shipping in connections.
John;

Your head steward for Delaware for a day…How do you deal with it?

We know what Hong Kong, Singapore or Australia would do…Suspension would be the least of his worries most likely.

We have been around the game and were adults, so there is little gray area in our minds with these circumstances. But, how does a racing official make this largely subjective call with any degree of certainty?

Side story;

As in Dragnet the names have been changed to protect the innocent…;)

I lived in So Florida for several years and followed GP and CRC very closely. I got to know several trainers etc…

There is one rider in particular (who is still there BTW) who is an artist at pulling horses. 99% of these cheats take place in the bottom level 2 & 3yo MCL races that CRC cards so often. How this act that we witnessed for many years gets by racing officials just floors me. I’m NOT suggesting some mass conspiracy, but when you know what to look for…see it and minutes later your phone rings with another experienced player saying…”Did you see the pull job in the 3rd…”, well, it begins to take shape in your mind.

BTW-I: Very nice angle when this particular rider gets the mount back.

BTW-II: I fully understand PA’s position on speculation and allegations…This is not some fly by night board…it’s read by many…many in the industry. If I was out of bounds talking about this situation, please send it too the recycle bin.

[jotb]

The incident smells fishy.
But hardly enough evidence to do anything about it.
That would be the last time that jockey would ride for me.
The jockey's explanation is not impossible. Maybe the horse
was sore and maybe it didn't like the grass today. How a jockey
can read a horse's view of the situation is beyond my capabilities.
Behaviorally, the horse just did not bring his A game today.

Hell Greyfox:

Maybe not enough evidence to do anything about it but I can tell you a quick story. I know a rider that had eyes for a female trainer and was getting on a horse in the morning for someone else. That person he was getting on was one of his best customers. Make a long story short, the mare had not run in over 6 months and was in for 7500. She wrote the slip out prior to the race without looking at the horse in the paddock and was the only one in for her. This question is for you and TOMCALTA. What does the jockey gain from this? Was the trainer that gorgeous or could it have been the jocks money? Maybe the trainer was watching that mare train everytime. Hard to prove but it don't look good on the jocks part.

Best regards,
Joe

[john del riccio]

There are so many guys here doing the promo thing, I get y'all confused. So, I clicked on the avatar for Woodside, etc. I see the photo of a guy--is this John Del Riccio?

If so, John, you don't even look old enough to remember, or to use the terminology "Several years ago".

You look 18 years old. LOLOL

Grits,

I've got good gene, I'll be 44 in a few months......

John

[john del riccio]

John;

Your head steward for Delaware for a day…How do you deal with it?

We know what Hong Kong, Singapore or Australia would do…Suspension would be the least of his worries most likely.

We have been around the game and were adults, so there is little gray area in our minds with these circumstances. But, how does a racing official make this largely subjective call with any degree of certainty?

Side story;

As in Dragnet the names have been changed to protect the innocent…;)

I lived in So Florida for several years and followed GP and CRC very closely. I got to know several trainers etc…

There is one rider in particular (who is still there BTW) who is an artist at pulling horses. 99% of these cheats take place in the bottom level 2 & 3yo MCL races that CRC cards so often. How this act that we witnessed for many years gets by racing officials just floors me. I’m NOT suggesting some mass conspiracy, but when you know what to look for…see it and minutes later your phone rings with another experienced player saying…”Did you see the pull job in the 3rd…”, well, it begins to take shape in your mind.

BTW-I: Very nice angle when this particular rider gets the mount back.

BTW-II: I fully understand PA’s position on speculation and allegations…This is not some fly by night board…it’s read by many…many in the industry. If I was out of bounds talking about this situation, please send it too the recycle bin.

Dan,

If the had that authority, I'd get the state vet to evaluate this horses soundness IMMEDIATELY AFTER the race. If he wasn't sore, that jock would get days the first time, and alot worse than that the second time.

John

[tomcalta]

Hard to prove but it don't look good on the jocks part.


It's amazing, for riders to get good mounts reputation is everything. He would be crazy to risk that for one horse and a medium-priced win ticket next race. But... i wouldnt be surprised. :bang:

[the_fat_man]

Reminds me a bit of the scuttlebut on the backstretch in the '70's about Stonewalk: claimed by Lopez for $25k and went on to win over $500k.

Apparently, the exerciise rider from the former barn sold out his employer.

What's worse:

training a horse and being clueless as to its ability OR watching a race and being clueless as to who's trying and who's not?

[point given]

CJ,

I could tell you about stuff at DEL that would make your head spin but since you make figs, I'll bet you already are aware of what I am speaking about. Several years ago, that place should have been named Pharmesutical Downs. Its still bad bvut no where near as much.

John

Wasn't it Delaware that would not give Michael Gill stalls ? Then he bought a farm and shipped in and the next year got out of racing except for a few horses now.

AND, if Delaware is that bad, then what do you have to say for Maryland ? Nary a good horse in the state. Philly ? Monmouth? Looks like the whole midlantic area has serious problems. I remember a couple years back, I was at Monmouth on a weekend for a stakes race at the paddock. One horse was being brought back to the saddling shed for something, then the trainer and owner of another horse come running back to the shed to see whats going on with the horse. Really made me wonder , as does the very late money that most times goes on the winner. :bang:

[judd]

whats the horse name so i can bet $200 across

[The Judge]

Where humans and money are involed what's so shocking about someone trying to take advantage. A jockey, a trainer, a pari-mutual clerk , a bank teller, an accountant, a lawyer and on and on.

We have all heard "well why play a game if you think it's fixed? Well we know you can't fix "the game" and can only "try" to fix a race. Even in a fixed race your horse might win. In horse race movies where the star horse must cross the wire first the shot has be taken many times on occasion because the, play acting horses ,won't cooperate and cross the wire out of order, now this is under direction with all riders in on the "fix'.

I have seen horses with their heads turned almost completly around the jockey is pulling on the horse to slow it down (this is to control the horse not to fix and lose the race) the horse won't have any part of it. With it head looking into infield or grandstand not in front ,the horse runs off and wins.

As a whole the game is clean enough to be played. Surely we don't need John or anyone else to tell that on any given day in any given race our horse may not be meant to win the race and in some cases is meant to be stiffed.
If not when did the practice stop, or has it all been in our imagination?

We aren't talking about some poor sole walking around the track talking to himself with run over shoes putting together quarters for the next bet "howling" to everyone "did you see that jock pull up my horse" ( a horse that is 4/5) that he had sniffed out.

John puts up good posts, it might be wise to pay attention when certain people have an observation it might put a little money in your pocket.

[Ron]

Who knows, the owner could be glad the horse is gone.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Why ship a consistent, above-average horse to DEL for a tag unless it was sore and people at DEL did not know the horse?
If there is a conspiracy why would the jock first say the hoirse just didn't like the track? They were probably trying to dump the horse and claimer got burnt.

[tomcalta]

I guess that would depend on how he goes next time out.

[john del riccio]

Why ship a consistent, above-average horse to DEL for a tag unless it was sore and people at DEL did not know the horse?
If there is a conspiracy why would the jock first say the hoirse just didn't like the track? They were probably trying to dump the horse and claimer got burnt.

He had run well over it before and the reason he was because the race didn't fill at his local track.

John

[Ron]

Why be so vague about the details anyway...what race was it, who was the jockey and what's the horse's name?

[Tom]

Inquiring minds want to know.....:confused:

[john del riccio]

Inquiring minds want to know.....:confused:

I will speak to my friend and ask if he would mind that I give the name. If he is OK with it, I will.

John

[Tom]

I just want to keep my eye out for the killing! ;)

[Ron]

I just want to keep my eye out for the killing! ;)

Termination!!! :lol:

[kenwoodallpromos]

I will speak to my friend and ask if he would mind that I give the name. If he is OK with it, I will.

John
Thank you John! I think that must be the only detail your friend did mnot tell you about!LOL!!

[Pace Cap'n]

John said: The horse was not shipped with his regular jock and one of the leading riders at DEL got the call.

Jotb said: Since 2002 this jock has rode only 8 times with 1 win and 1 third.

Which is it?

[john del riccio]

John said: The horse was not shipped with his regular jock and one of the leading riders at DEL got the call.

Jotb said: Since 2002 this jock has rode only 8 times with 1 win and 1 third.

Which is it?

I think Jotb may have mis-spoke, perhaps he meant for these connections ?

John

[PaceAdvantage]

Why be so vague about the details anyway...what race was it, who was the jockey and what's the horse's name?

I'm not sure I want the details posted from a liability perspective. Am I off base here?

[jotb]

I think Jotb may have mis-spoke, perhaps he meant for these connections ?

John

That's what I meant John and that's why I thought the trainer should have got somebody else to ride. I didn't want to give any other clues but I'll guarantee the horse will be short priced anyway next time. I just want to see if he rides this horse back since he told the stewards the horse was sore.

Joe

[john del riccio]

I'm not sure I want the details posted from a liability perspective. Am I off base here?

Pace,

I will respect your wishes but I think this is a side of the game that is more than
worth showing to the fans. If I ever get stiffed on any horse that I run, I will not be ashamed about letting my thoughts be known here.

I have been "given one" in the past on occasion and lets just say it is not a nice feeling. It happends.

John

PS Was I out of line posting this initially ?

[john del riccio]

That's what I meant John and that's why I thought the trainer should have got somebody else to ride. I didn't want to give any other clues but I'll guarantee the horse will be short priced anyway next time. I just want to see if he rides this horse back since he told the stewards the horse was sore.

Joe

Joe,

He was not his first choice, he got spun, you know how that goes.

John

[ELA]

Certainly this is not a shock -- at least not to John, Joe, myself, and people are are in the business, specifically, the claiming game. Unfortunately, when there is money at stake, as well as gambling, human nature and intervention will rear it's head -- and sometimes it's an ugly head. I think John and Joe addressed "what was in it" for the local jockey. Having been in this game for my entire life, I will tell you that the "bet next time" may have crossed the minds of the local jock, the claiming trainer, and someone else who was involved. And, if next time out the opportunity presented itself, no doubt, whoever, would pull the trigger.

However, the bigger and stronger motivation and the more likely benefit did not have to do with the bet. Reason being -- there are more than enough sharp people, professionals, clockers, etc., people who know what they are doing and know what they are watching -- next time out, the horse will most likely be a very short price.

On the details and specifics, who was involved, etc. -- I don't think the names should be disclosed in a public forum. No good deed goes unpunished, LOL.

Even in an ideal world, without the "bad" -- the claiming game is a game of poker -- Texas hold 'em, liars poker, and a few others all combined, LOL.

Eric

[Greyfox]

I'm not sure I want the details posted from a liability perspective. Am I off base here?

I repeat a fair comment:
I'm not sure I want the details posted from a liability perspective. Am I off base here?

[ryesteve]

If I were PA, I wouldn't want the horse's name posted either. But I don't think there'd be any harm in mentioning what day this happened, would there?

[ELA]

I'm not sure I want the details posted from a liability perspective. Am I off base here?

I am not a practicing attorney, however, if it were me, I would land on the side of conservatism and wanting to be in a position of "not knowing".

Eric

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't have a problem with telling a story and leaving out names to "protect the innocent."

Pace,

I will respect your wishes but I think this is a side of the game that is more than
worth showing to the fans. If I ever get stiffed on any horse that I run, I will not be ashamed about letting my thoughts be known here.

I have been "given one" in the past on occasion and lets just say it is not a nice feeling. It happends.

John

PS Was I out of line posting this initially ?

[Greyfox]

Hell Greyfox:

Maybe not enough evidence to do anything about it but I can tell you a quick story. I know a rider that had eyes for a female trainer and was getting on a horse in the morning for someone else. That person he was getting on was one of his best customers. Make a long story short, the mare had not run in over 6 months and was in for 7500. She wrote the slip out prior to the race without looking at the horse in the paddock and was the only one in for her. This question is for you and TOMCALTA. What does the jockey gain from this? Was the trainer that gorgeous or could it have been the jocks money? Maybe the trainer was watching that mare train everytime. Hard to prove but it don't look good on the jocks part.

Best regards,
Joe

????I 'm buffaloed. What did you say?

"That person he was getting on was one of his best customers."
(Jockey's ride horses?)

"What did the jockey gain from this?

A hard on? Off the top of my head.

Tomcalta, this question was also for you. Can you offer an interpretation?

[SMOO]

Yet another reason to avoid claiming races. Plenty of allowance & stakes races to look at, at least you know they aren't dropping to get claimed.

[DanG]

It’s not really important who this is IMO.

To me a point John illuminates is how close the racing community is on the backside.

Now, stiffing a mount because a friend or family member has in a claim slip. That’s fraud and should be dealt with harshly and I’m sure we can all agree on that. But, I always found it interesting how claiming information is swapped among friends, son in laws, spouses etc…

Jockey-A rides Horse-B in a twenty claimer. Jockey-A is the son in law of a claiming trainer on the circuit. Their talking in the track kitchen and it comes out how sound that twenty claimer felt and he’s fresh from a layoff.

Well, that is “insider trading” in the claiming game. You can eye ball an animal for an hour, but there is nothing like a competent horsemen riding them under racing pressure to get a feel for their soundness.

That’s one of a hundred ways in manifests itself. I always found that horseplayers who excel at reading the claiming ranks can also excel at poker. Similar skill set and sometimes instincts supersede all numeric methods.

[tomcalta]

????I 'm buffaloed. What did you say?

"What did the jockey gain from this?

A hard on? Off the top of my head.

Tomcalta, this question was also for you. Can you offer an interpretation?



Jockeys get hard ons from fixing races? Maybe thats why that 60YO jock is still runnin horses. BRILLIANT!

[GaryG]

I always found that horseplayers who excel at reading the claiming ranks can also excel at poker. Similar skill set and sometimes instincts supersede all numeric methods.IMO this comes from an intimate knowledge of the trainers and their various methods. It is not brain surgery.

SMOO: If I couldnt play claiming races I would just listen to Skynrd all day. That would drive my wife nuts. Waiting patiently for Tampa Bay Downs.

[SMOO]

SMOO: If I couldnt play claiming races I would just listen to Skynrd all day. That would drive my wife nuts.

Different strokes for different folks. Myself, I prefer The Allman Brothers and NW2 allowances. :jump:

[DanG]

IMO this comes from an intimate knowledge of the trainers and their various methods. It is not brain surgery.

SMOO: If I couldnt play claiming races I would just listen to Skynrd all day. That would drive my wife nuts. Waiting patiently for Tampa Bay Downs.
All right, a plug for Tampa!!! :jump:

Gary, with all due respect it is ‘brain surgery for some. I’ve seen it wreck the equilibrium of good players with the huge drops in class, 1st off a claim, severe distance changes etc…

Give yourself more credit…You may be closer to a ‘brain surgeon than you think! :)

[Ron]

Yet another reason to avoid claiming races. Plenty of allowance & stakes races to look at, at least you know they aren't dropping to get claimed.

Aren't at least 80% of the races claiming races??

I just looked at the jockey standings and I can't believe that any of the top 4 jocks at Delaware would stiff a mount. I can see that maybe they just sucked that race.