New York report questions dealings with off-track sites

[trigger]

Some quotes from this atricle:
"Presented to Spitzer on July 2, the report documents Churchill Downs’s commercial agreements with three of the barred outlets: International Racing Group of Curacao, Netherlands Antilles; Elite Turf Club, of Curacao; and the Oklahoma-based Tonkawa Indian Reservation. Churchill has since ended agreements with IRG as part of its simulcast dispute with IRG owner Youbet.com Inc
"The report took extra time to outline Churchill’s close relationship with Racing and Gaming Services, a rebate shop based in St. Kitts, West Indies, that consistently wins. Tracks routinely owe payouts to RGS in each monthly cycle. Churchill Downs collects those payouts for RGS and receives a percentage of money collected.

NYRA said it canceled agreements with the Australian entity because of its use of batch betting, a process of using technology as a means to find information and make bets at the last minute."

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2007/July/12/New-York-report-questions-dealings-with-off-track-sites.aspx

[Indulto]

..."The report took extra time to outline Churchill’s close relationship with Racing and Gaming Services, a rebate shop based in St. Kitts, West Indies, that consistently wins. Tracks routinely owe payouts to RGS in each monthly cycle. Churchill Downs collects those payouts for RGS and receives a percentage of money collected.Phonier is to FONYR as seedy is to CD. :lol:

[prospector]

"NYRA said it canceled agreements with the Australian entity because of its use of batch betting, a process of using technology as a means to find information and make bets at the last minute."

so, i guess batch betting is to nyra as card counting is to vegas?

batch betting is legal in hong kong...

http://www.inside-edge-mag.co.uk/racing/features/137/the_life_hong_kong_betting_syndicates.html

[PaceAdvantage]

Batch betting should be legal everywhere. I don't see how anyone can argue against batch betting, unless they are using a different definition of batch betting then the one I use....

Here's mine:

You enter your bets into a software program that will send those bets into the tote system when and IF certain conditions are met. Those conditions could be virtually anything....ratio of one pool vs. another....minimum odds requirements....sophisticated arbitrage formulas...whatever...doesn't matter.

Now, I have written such a program myself, although, crudely, its only conditions are minimum odds and minutes to post.

I don't see how this edge (if one exists) should be frowned upon anymore than the guy that uses a software program that computes superior numbers. Both instances are cases where the handicapper is using technology to find and exploit an edge. That's what the game is all about.

[Indulto]

... batch betting is to nyra as card counting is to vegas ...

http://www.inside-edge-mag.co.uk/racing/features/137/the_life_hong_kong_betting_syndicates.html:lol: :lol:
Prosp,
Thanks for the laugh and the link.

From the article:… Hong Kong racing … is scrupulously honest (fixing would hurt computer bettors' calculations), and there is a pool of only 1,200 horses per season (a manageable number for the teams to track). Then there are the extravagantly exotic bets and parlays, comprising a rich smorgasbord of financial opportunities that seem custom-made for the computer teams. One, the Triple Trio, requires picking the top three finishers in three races and often pays six-figure dividends.

… Competition among Hong Kong's computer teams is fierce. Tech secrets are closely guarded, nobody's keen to publicise their betting strategies and the cagiest players aim to hide their wagers from other teams - all of which monitor the flow of racing money via an independent online service called Telequote, based in Hong Kong.

… [Benter’s] team had its betting model set to disguise action with little $5,000 dribbles. They ultimately put the right amount on a horse, but did it over a sequence of time, leaving no footprints. That drove other punters crazy.'

… Designing software to do all this is a delicate operation with seemingly endless pitfalls that can disastrously skew results. Benter, for example, went broke at least once before his system was efficient enough to turn a steady profit.Does this mean that our our inability to keep racing honest here is actually a form of self-protection? Vive la Biancone! :D

[point given]

Batch betting should be legal everywhere. I don't see how anyone can argue against batch betting, unless they are using a different definition of batch betting then the one I use....

Here's mine:

You enter your bets into a software program that will send those bets into the tote system when and IF certain conditions are met. Those conditions could be virtually anything....ratio of one pool vs. another....minimum odds requirements....sophisticated arbitrage formulas...whatever...doesn't matter.

Now, I have written such a program myself, although, crudely, its only conditions are minimum odds and minutes to post.

I don't see how this edge (if one exists) should be frowned upon anymore than the guy that uses a software program that computes superior numbers. Both instances are cases where the handicapper is using technology to find and exploit an edge. That's what the game is all about.

While you make your point, I disagree with the comparison of someone making superior numbers vs someone knocking down the odds due to their superior technological edge in getting in hundreds of bets in the last cycle of betting. Call me old fashioned , but , to me it is an unfair advantage for technophiles, which goes hand in hand with whale rebates. I like to play on a level playing field, there are enough funny things that go on in this sport.
But thats just me. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

What's the difference between a guy who uses a computer to send in lots of bets at the last minute, versus a guy who uses a computer to create (theoretically) the best "rating" ever made. Both instances may or MAY NOT provide a big edge (well, the latter example most definitely will give you a big edge, if valid).

Just because a guy can send in lots of bets at the last second doesn't mean he's going to be an automatic winner from here to eternity.

And in both instances, the guy has an edge a non-techy won't ever have...

[trigger]

"NYRA said it canceled agreements with the Australian entity because of its use of batch betting, a process of using technology as a means to find information and make bets at the last minute."

so, i guess batch betting is to nyra as card counting is to vegas?

batch betting is legal in hong kong...

http://www.inside-edge-mag.co.uk/racing/features/137/the_life_hong_kong_betting_syndicates.html

This is a quote from the article cited above:
>>>"Three slender Hong Kong sisters faced Dufficy, waiting for a printer to spit out a list of a few hundred bets with possible big payoffs. One sister grabbed the sheets and snipped them into strips, which she distributed to the other women. They punched the information into their handheld wagering machines, which transmitted it to the track via telephone lines, filling the room with the chirping of outgoing data."<<<

Sure doesn't sound like batch betting to me. I am fairly sure that batch betting is, in fact, banned in Hong Kong.

[trigger]

What's the difference between a guy who uses a computer to send in lots of bets at the last minute, versus a guy who uses a computer to create (theoretically) the best "rating" ever made. Both instances may or MAY NOT provide a big edge (well, the latter example most definitely will give you a big edge, if valid).

Just because a guy can send in lots of bets at the last second doesn't mean he's going to be an automatic winner from here to eternity.

And in both instances, the guy has an edge a non-techy won't ever have...

The difference is everyone can analyze racing data either manually or via a computer or buy info or whatever and most bettors realize and accept that some bettors spend more time and money on doping out the horse information . Good luck to them.
However, to me, electronically taking advantage of the tote system (the neural network for all horse racing wagers) to process batch bets goes over the line and does create an advantage for batch bettors over bettors at the track or those without computers ....this especially true in a pari-mutuel environment where traditionally the final odds of your bet has always been unknown when the bet is made and being shut out has always been a risk.
If there was some way that a track patron could walk up to a teller and make a couple of hundred bets with 30 seconds to post then I would say ok but until then , batch betting is unfair.

[Premier Turf Club]

While you make your point, I disagree with the comparison of someone making superior numbers vs someone knocking down the odds due to their superior technological edge in getting in hundreds of bets in the last cycle of betting. Call me old fashioned , but , to me it is an unfair advantage for technophiles, which goes hand in hand with whale rebates. I like to play on a level playing field, there are enough funny things that go on in this sport.
But thats just me. ;)

I could license you a batch wagering program you can use to you heart's content through our site for $40 a month. Not looking to get into a debate over this but there are programs available to just about everyone these days. Feel free to contact me via PM for specific details if you're interested.

And if you're handicapping isn't good all a batch wagering program allows you to do is burn your bankroll more quickly. It doesn't turn losers into winners.:)

[Indulto]

Does anyone know what the takeout is in Hong Kong; in particular, the "triple trio?" Is any money in those pools rebated? I would think not as the product is so attractive to the customers. Plus I would assume that security and integrity are extremely well-funded there.

What are the rules with regard to medication? I wonder how their statistics like number of starts per horse, earnings per horse, breakdown rate, win % for leading trainers and jocks, etc. compare with ours?

Are the personnel and funding of the betting teams subject to extraordinary scrutiny or is it hands-off the customer as the true driver of the game there?

[Indulto]

... I like to play on a level playing field, there are enough funny things that go on in this sport.
But thats just me. :)I could license you a batch wagering program you can use to you heart's content through our site for $40 a month. Not looking to get into a debate over this but there are programs available to just about everyone these days. Feel free to contact me via PM for specific details if you're interested.

And if you're handicapping isn't good all a batch wagering program allows you to do is burn your bankroll more quickly. It doesn't turn losers into winners.:)PG,
It appears that PTC is offering you a batch betting program with a no bettor bitching clause for botched wagering. :D

Just make sure it isn’t the offshoot of the Hong Kong program that made GP cut off its North Dakota practitioner as if he were King Kong. What a sonofabatch that would be!. :lol:

With apologies to Eden Ahbez, creator of "Nature Boy:"
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to" churn, but not burn, your return.


Accountless in Arcadia ;)

[trigger]

Does anyone know what the takeout is in Hong Kong; in particular, the "triple trio?" Is any money in those pools rebated? I would think not as the product is so attractive to the customers. Plus I would assume that security and integrity are extremely well-funded there.

What are the rules with regard to medication? I wonder how their statistics like number of starts per horse, earnings per horse, breakdown rate, win % for leading trainers and jocks, etc. compare with ours?

Are the personnel and funding of the betting teams subject to extraordinary scrutiny or is it hands-off the customer as the true driver of the game there?

>>>>>>>"The government now taxes total HKJC profits, rather than total money bet on horse races, a move seen helping it combat illegal bookmaking - which is cheaper for punters as it does not carry the HKJC’s 17.5 percent takeout. The club believes illegal betting cuts its annual take by up to 25 billion dollars."<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>"Engelbrecht-Bresges told the South China Morning Post: "The most important thing with the experience so far is that we have proved conclusively that the betting product is very price sensitive, and this should be a lesson to all concerned -- that when governments want to put up betting taxes because they want more revenue, turnover will certainly go down. When they do this, they are playing with fire."
He noted the club's success in attracting big betters with discounts for wagers of more than 10,000 dollars, but added: "The question is how to go to the next step and here again we must be mindful of the system. If this was being run on a normal business model we would definitely be more aggressive.""<<<<<<<<
http://news.sawf.org/Lifestyle/39172.aspx

[Indulto]

http://news.sawf.org/Lifestyle/39172.aspx
Trigger,
Thanks for the link. I thought the following article contained some support for your contention that batch betting isn’t allowed in Hong Kong:

(http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,1413,00.html)http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,1413,00.html (http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,1413,00.html)
Gambling: The Hundred and Fifty Million Dollar Man
Alan Woods has used computer technology to become one of the world's most successful gamblers. but it isn't always a sure thing.
By Michael Kaplan

… Woods and his team—which include technicians, racing analysts, accountants and money movers—are so intent on snagging this pot of gold that they pursue it in a gargantuan way: betting on 1.77 million combinations, at a cost of $1.88 million. Around 14 percent of the $13 million in new money being wagered on today's Triple Trio will originate with them.

… Woods sits in front of three screens and groans that Hong Kong racing is not what it used to be. "After 56 months of deflation in Hong Kong, the public's no longer so enthusiastic about jumping into these things." The subtext here is that as long as amateur gamblers are more conservative with their betting budgets, there is less for the professionals to win.Those who like participating in the Player’s Pool would probably love to invest in these teams; assuming the return would be better with their ability to eliminate many statistically unlikely combinations.

[Ray]

What's the difference between a guy who uses a computer to send in lots of bets at the last minute, versus a guy who uses a computer to create (theoretically) the best "rating" ever made. Both instances may or MAY NOT provide a big edge (well, the latter example most definitely will give you a big edge, if valid).

Just because a guy can send in lots of bets at the last second doesn't mean he's going to be an automatic winner from here to eternity.

And in both instances, the guy has an edge a non-techy won't ever have...

I dont think it makes a difference but I think the perception that something like this is cheating or unfair is bad enough for the tracks not to allow. if it gets around to new people that there are programs like this that give an advantage to a select few that perception alone will stunt the already struggling growth of the game at this point it doesnt matter if its fair or not.

[Indulto]

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=609208&category=SPORTS&newsdate=7/26/2007 (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=609208&category=SPORTS&newsdate=7/26/2007)
Hong Kong seeks Spa tips
Racing officials come to see what makes Saratoga Race Course so special
By DENNIS YUSKO

… If Hong Kong is to revive its bustling but declining horse racing industry, it needs to replicate the welcoming ambience of the Spa, the executives said.

"My first impression is the sense of a party," said Philip Chen, manager of property planning and design for the Hong Kong club. "The noise, the families, it's a whole event."

… "If we could somehow transplant this crowd, this atmosphere to Hong Kong, that would be ideal … "The atmosphere, the crowd, the mix of people, is far superior to ours."

… Racing in Hong Kong is in transition, and the sport's officials are trying to modernize it to attract more women and younger fans, the Chens said.

… Horse racing was Hong Kong's only form of legalized gambling until 2003, when authorities began permitting wagering on European soccer.

Of Hong Kong's 5 million adults, 1.2 million have telephone or computer betting accounts for horse racing, Kenneth Chen said. But the sport lost some $4 billion in handle per year to soccer.

"We're declining," he said. "The racing product is something that is aging. And if we don't do something about it, it will continue aging. We need to expand our offerings so it's not just middle-aged men."

[point given]

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=609208&category=SPORTS&newsdate=7/26/2007 (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=609208&category=SPORTS&newsdate=7/26/2007)
[/color]

"Of Hong Kong's 5 million adults, 1.2 million have telephone or computer betting accounts for horse racing, Kenneth Chen said. But the sport lost some $4 billion in handle per year to soccer.

"We're declining," he said. "The racing product is something that is aging. And if we don't do something about it, it will continue aging. We need to expand our offerings so it's not just middle-aged men."

Don't these people know that slots are the answer ? They ought to be consulting with Magna and Herr stronach :lol:

[Premier Turf Club]

Don't these people know that slots are the answer ? They ought to be consulting with Magna and Herr stronach :lol:

I think you have it wrong. Signal wars are the answer. ;)

B-School 101, give the customers what they don't want at a price they are unwilling to pay for it. See profits soar.

Oh wait, that only works for monopolies. My bad. :lol: