Biancone the "snake charmer"

[ponypro]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/86373.html

sounds pretty serious, local anesthetics big time violation

Reminds me of years ago I had a trainer in my Dental office. I swabbed his cheek with a cream anesthetic before giving him a shot. After about 30 seconds his mouth was completely numb. he glanced up at me and said

"hey doc, you think that stuff would test"

[ponypro]

just found some for sale on the Internet. $1500 for 1mg. Thats pretty pricey. Must be cut down a bunch

[Niko]

The next possible step would be a hearing before the racing authority, after which the case could go into the court system, meaning resolution could be months, if not years, away.

55 years old...nearing retirement. His horses can still run......good to see them "catch" someone but again it's falling on my deaf ears like a child who's parent threatens to do something and never follows up on it....

Maybe one of these days news like this will actually mean something other than the insiders can continue screwing the bettors...

and if there's others doing it :rolleyes: I can't say I totally blame one of the first caught no more than I blame Canseco and others for taking steroids.

Maybe some of the people defending these trainers saying they're not using anything because there's no proof will wake up a bit just like the baseball and cycling scandals when people were in denial because there was no "proof"

[ELA]

Like everyone, I'll be following this closely. I am sure many of the details are not yet known, but on the surface it doesn't look good.

Also, Biancone is not near retirement. Unless he has changed his mind recently, he hasn't really planned on retiring in the near future. Being in his mid-50's and still have a strong, loyal client roster, he can still be a factor and I expect him to be.

This incident certainly is not good, but I am sure we will see how it plays out.

Eric

[Pace Cap'n]

just found some for sale on the Internet. $1500 for 1mg. Thats pretty pricey. Must be cut down a bunch

Sheesh--you can buy your own cobra for around $200.

[boomman]

I've said it on this forum before and I'll say it again.....Give him due process, and if he is found guilty, bar him from the game FOREVER!! Come on guys, we have to speak out as a group to do everything we can to make our voices heard that we won't continue to tolerate this kind of crap in the game we love!! :mad:

Boomer

[alysheba88]

I agree. Just wonder why Assjuiccen, Dutrow and Pletcher arent already banned forever

[Kelso]

..... administering "banned" substances to two horses in 1999. That should have finished this bastard (and all others like him) in the industry worldwide. Using banned substances isn't a matter of misadministering or misunderstanding. It's willfull abuse and cheating and should be hammered ... no exceptions. That's the ONLY way to end it.

[PaceAdvantage]

I agree. Just wonder why Assjuiccen, Dutrow and Pletcher arent already banned forever

I know I'm the dumb one here, so I get to ask the dumb questions....

Why do you include Pletcher on your list? I never really understood why Pletcher gets lumped in with the main chain gang. Yeah, he's had a positive, but seriously, who hasn't?

Even the venerable Bill Mott, the poster boy for trainer wholesomeness, was suspended for a drug positive, so again, I ask, why is Pletcher repeatedly put on this list?

[gIracing]

Sheesh--you can buy your own cobra for around $200.

about 500ish, but still you have to extrac the cobra venom.. and Id on't know about you, I have pet snakes, and I'm not getting that close to a cobra to get venom out of it. I'd happily pay the 1500... assuming I needed it for some reason other than jucing horses.

[alysheba88]

I know I'm the dumb one here, so I get to ask the dumb questions....

Why do you include Pletcher on your list? I never really understood why Pletcher gets lumped in with the main chain gang. Yeah, he's had a positive, but seriously, who hasn't?

Even the venerable Bill Mott, the poster boy for trainer wholesomeness, was suspended for a drug positive, so again, I ask, why is Pletcher repeatedly put on this list?

Pletcher is as notorious as any of them. Horses show all the traditional signs. That extra oomph. Did you see Barclay's Tagg's comment from this weekend? As close as I have seen to one trainer outing another.

[alysheba88]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the cheaters in all sports are ahead of the testers. Always has been the case. People still talk about "steroids" in baseball. While I am sure some guys still use it, most have moved on to much stronger stuff.

The NFL has a "steroids" policy. With few testing positive every year. Does anyone really and I mean really think that most of these guys are not taking performance enhancers?

[1st time lasix]

I don't believe Pletcher is a cheater. Just because you says its true ....doesn't make it so!

[alysheba88]

I don't believe Pletcher is a cheater. Just because you says its true ....doesn't make it so!

lol, and just because you say he isnt doesnt make it so. Want to have an adult conversation now?

[ELA]

This is the same old discussion, and a good part of it has to do with different people's interpretations. Many people think that "intent" is an issue, and I can see where that is feasible.

Pletcher and Assmusen came up positive for the same drug -- difference being that Pletcher's was allegedly some slight overage, and Assmusen's of course was allegedly for 750 times the allowable limit. Personally, I don't think either should be banned for life for this positive. If I was a national czar or something of the like and had the ability establish and enforce the rules -- Assmusen would get a more severe penalty -- EXCLUSIVELY AND FOR NO OTHER REASON than the fact that this was not strike 1 or 2 with him.

I don't know what strike it is, nor do I care, and I don't believe for one second that it was strike 22 or 23. That's a discussion for another time -- which too has been discussed again and again . . . and so on.

There will always be hypocrisy. There has to be.

Eric

[ELA]

Pletcher is as notorious as any of them. Horses show all the traditional signs. That extra oomph. Did you see Barclay's Tagg's comment from this weekend? As close as I have seen to one trainer outing another.

Where were Tagg's comments quoted? Thank you.

Eric

[alysheba88]

Sundays Daily News

[ponypro]

I have personally found that worrying about who "cheats" to be counterproduvtive to handicapping. obsessing about "Super Trainers" or those that use a certain vet is just too cynical for me and I dont want to turn this board into some others I have visted that blame everyone on drugs. I have always taken most drug positives with a grain of salt because I know the testing is very sensitive and I do think the stories about for instance cocaine positives because the groom used coke seemed very plausable. Hell theres cocaine on our currency. Alot of positives are residuals of legally administered drugs and Im not sure that you could quantify what a "milkshake" does without an extensive study.

One thing for sure I find it odd that the authorties released this Cobra Venum info so early in the investigation. It shows clear intent to beat the testing system and because of the extreme effectiveness of local anesthetics to enhance performance as opposed to some of the other positive tests I mentioned that are dubious at best. I think he should be banned for life if found guilty and a strong signal sent to those who would try this level of deception.

[alysheba88]

I have personally found that worrying about who "cheats" to be counterproduvtive to handicapping. obsessing about "Super Trainers" or those that use a certain vet is just too cynical for me and I dont want to turn this board into some others I have visted that blame everyone on drugs. I have always taken most drug positives with a grain of salt because I know the testing is very sensitive and I do think the stories about for instance cocaine positives because the groom used coke seemed very plausable. Hell theres cocaine on our currency. Alot of positives are residuals of legally administered drugs and Im not sure that you could quantify what a "milkshake" does without an extensive study.

One thing for sure I find it odd that the authorties released this Cobra Venum info so early in the investigation. It shows clear intent to beat the testing system and because of the extreme effectiveness of local anesthetics to enhance performance as opposed to some of the other positive tests I mentioned that are dubious at best. I think he should be banned for life if found guilty and a strong signal sent to those who would try this level of deception.

On the contrary knowing who cheats is a major part of the handicapping contest. Another factor.

[ELA]

I have personally found that worrying about who "cheats" to be counterproduvtive to handicapping. obsessing about "Super Trainers" or those that use a certain vet is just too cynical for me and I dont want to turn this board into some others I have visted that blame everyone on drugs. I have always taken most drug positives with a grain of salt because I know the testing is very sensitive and I do think the stories about for instance cocaine positives because the groom used coke seemed very plausable. Hell theres cocaine on our currency. Alot of positives are residuals of legally administered drugs and Im not sure that you could quantify what a "milkshake" does without an extensive study.

One thing for sure I find it odd that the authorties released this Cobra Venum info so early in the investigation. It shows clear intent to beat the testing system and because of the extreme effectiveness of local anesthetics to enhance performance as opposed to some of the other positive tests I mentioned that are dubious at best. I think he should be banned for life if found guilty and a strong signal sent to those who would try this level of deception.

Good point you touched upon. However, most conversations turn into that finger pointing and soapbox preaching anyway. Personally, I think it happens and happens everyday. I am not singling out anyone here, however I find it extremely common that people scream "cheaters" and take their industry position of how it's bad for the game -- as if they truly wanted to play a role in cleaning up the game. I do think a great deal of it comes from the fact they they are getting beat and tearing up tickets. We've all seen it, but it's also human nature.

On the other hand, these are the some of the very same people who are shopping around for the best deal from rebate shops, avoiding playing on-track or via OTB, bashing track management, VLT's, and everything else that they don't like. Don't get me wrong -- I get it. I lose a lot more money than most getting beat by some of these "super trainers" -- not because I bet more, but because I race against them all the time.

There is much more to the "cheaters" arguement than a simple positive test or finger-point.

Eric

[GaryG]

As a bettor you just make it too hard on yourself by worrying about who cheats and who doesn't. I would like do see penalties handed out even handedly but what are you going to do? If you don't want to bet on horses trained by any of the allegedly shady trainers you make an already tough game impossible.

[alysheba88]

Whats cynical is the lengths to which the trainers will cheat.

I dont "worry" about who cheats but hard to ignore it. You can make money on the cheaters thats for sure. People think if you point it out you MUST be losing. It never occurs to them, that in many ways the cheaters make it even easier to make money. Would just like to see a cleaner game. Its drug infested now.

[boomman]

Whats cynical is the lengths to which the trainers will cheat.

I dont "worry" about who cheats but hard to ignore it. You can make money on the cheaters thats for sure. People think if you point it out you MUST be losing. It never occurs to them, that in many ways the cheaters make it even easier to make money. Would just like to see a cleaner game. Its drug infested now.

alysheba: Your point is spot on! I guarantee you I am the first in line to call for a ban everytime one of these "super trainers" gets nailed, but I can also assure you that ironically, I think the game has gotten easier to handicap since this has come to the forefront. And if people think that guys train at a 35% clip without at least "pushing the envelope" they have their heads buried in the sand. It has even become a handicapping angle for me to know when these so-called "super trainers" are under scrutiny and go into 1-16 skids, too!!!!:D

Boomer

[Marc At DRF]

Tagg's comments on Pletcher hardly strike me as an indictment--

"I thought he (NoBiz) could win this race," Tagg said. "It's hard to beat Pletcher wherever you go."

[Robert Fischer]

if pletcher cheats he doesn't do the greatest job of it. He has great clientele and he seems to do about what is expected for his top level of animals. If anything I see Pletcher more as a professional than a super star.

Some of these other trainers, you handicapp enough and you start associating them with dramatic improvement to animals who have failed in the past. That is the factor I care about anyway. It doesn't make me a dime to know that the horse Pletcher already won 500k with is going to run well again next Saturday...

It makes me money to know that I have to over estimate the quality of the 0-for maiden horse trainer X gets from California, and after having the horse in his care for about a month, is going to run like a bear in the decently competitive maiden special weight at Belmont 6th race on july 4th (generally speaking of course):D
There are a few guys on each coast who scare me after I have finished handicapped the race. Pletcher isn't one of them. Maybe he cheats a little who knows.

[alysheba88]

Tagg's comments on Pletcher hardly strike me as an indictment--

"I thought he (NoBiz) could win this race," Tagg said. "It's hard to beat Pletcher wherever you go."

Marc, you cut out a bunch of stuff. Here is what he said

I"t’s hard to beat Pletcher; wherever you go, it’s hard to beat him,” said Barclay Tagg, trainer of Nobiz Like Shobiz. “No matter where you are, what race you’re in or who the horses are, it’s almost impossible to beat him.”

These guys dont come right out and accuse each other unfortunately. But not hard to read between the lines

[GaryG]

That is merely a statement of fact, not an indictment. He IS hard to beat wherever he goes. Look at his record at Monmouth with the 2nd or 3rd string runners in his barn.

[ELA]

Tagg's comments on Pletcher hardly strike me as an indictment--

"I thought he (NoBiz) could win this race," Tagg said. "It's hard to beat Pletcher wherever you go."

I'll agree, unless there is more to it. It's very hard to read what's inferred in a dead medium, without any commentary to the effect.

The cheaters will always remain ahead of the rules, tests, etc. That will never change.

The industry is going to have to address this, and they have. It's very easy, and everyone in the industry knows there is a lack of a governing body to handle what needs to be handled. Whether it's the Jockey Club, RCI, or some other "national" level body -- it will be done within the industry. The fans cannot lead by example. The bettors cannot either.

I have several trainers, across the US, who are high % trainers. I see vet bills that average about $200 a month (a regular 25% plus trainer who has multiple strings going, on a major, metropolitan racing circuit) and others that average $600 a month (a 25% plus trainer, with one division, not on a major circuit, etc.). You have the exceptions and outside the norm months of $1000, maybe $1500 or more.

There is so much more to the conversation. The solution is very easy and much easier said than done -- a national governing body -- which has the bit behind the bark, uniform and standardized medication rules, zero tolerance on the same set of rules for eveyrone, increasing penalties and suspensions as the strikes go up, and clear cut and substantial policies and procedures.

Eric

[DanG]

if pletcher cheats he doesn't do the greatest job of it. He has great clientele and he seems to do about what is expected for his top level of animals. If anything I see Pletcher more as a professional than a super star.

Robert,

With all due respect I really disagree here. I could sight all the statistics and considering the level he races at his consistency is mind boggling to me. But, just an observation and I have seen many trainers up close over the years.….

He saddled three animals in consecutive races at this years Tampa Bay Derby. I watched from the paddock at the way his crew and himself worked before and after each race. It was pure military precision and every horse hit the track gleaming. This is more than a professional IMHO; this is an extremely driven perfectionist who is not only a great stable manager, but a true horseman.

Just my opinion of course.

[ELA]

That is merely a statement of fact, not an indictment. He IS hard to beat wherever he goes. Look at his record at Monmouth with the 2nd or 3rd string runners in his barn.

The discussion is an exercise in futility, however -- and I am not a fan of Pletcher, but see him, his operation, etc. on the backstretch, up close, etc. -- in reality, his second and third strings of horses is far superior to anyone else's roster at Monmouth Park.

Part of the reason -- just one part -- for his success, is due to the fact that his barn has a depth, scope, etc. unlike anyone else's in the history of our game. Not Lukas, Van Berg, Baffert, Zito, nobody. The ability to "move" horses like he does adds a great deal to his #'s, and stats. If you don't already understand that aspect of the game and stable management, that's OK, but it is what it is.

Eric

[alysheba88]

Robert,

With all due respect I really disagree here. I could sight all the statistics and considering the level he races at his consistency is mind boggling to me. But, just an observation and I have seen many trainers up close over the years.….

He saddled three animals in consecutive races at this years Tampa Bay Derby. I watched from the paddock at the way his crew and himself worked before and after each race. It was pure military precision and every horse hit the track gleaming. This is more than a professional IMHO; this is an extremely driven perfectionist who is not only a great stable manager, but a true horseman.

Just my opinion of course.

Yeah and Barry Bonds works his ass off too. So that means Barry doesnt cheat? That was the same argument used for years by the baseball apologists. That the guy was "working hard".

I have no doubt that Pletcher runs a tight ship. Very organized. However that doesnt mean he doesnt cheat.

[alysheba88]

The discussion is an exercise in futility, however -- and I am not a fan of Pletcher, but see him, his operation, etc. on the backstretch, up close, etc. -- in reality, his second and third strings of horses is far superior to anyone else's roster at Monmouth Park.

Part of the reason -- just one part -- for his success, is due to the fact that his barn has a depth, scope, etc. unlike anyone else's in the history of our game. Not Lukas, Van Berg, Baffert, Zito, nobody. The ability to "move" horses like he does adds a great deal to his #'s, and stats. If you don't already understand that aspect of the game and stable management, that's OK, but it is what it is.

Eric

Lukas did do it. Thats where he learned. Give us some credit. We understand all that. Not saying he doesnt have a well run operation. But his horses "explode" in an unnatural way. Im sorry if this makes people uncomfortable.

[DanG]

Yeah and Barry Bonds works his ass off too. So that means Barry doesnt cheat? That was the same argument used for years by the baseball apologists. That the guy was "working hard".

I have no doubt that Pletcher runs a tight ship. Very organized. However that doesnt mean he doesnt cheat.
Did I say he doesn’t “cheat”?

The comment was made he was “professional” and not an exceptional trainer. My observation after watching many trainers is he’s world class in his approach. Yes…we know your position you don’t have to interject it 30 times a thread. :bang:

[TurfRuler]

Marc, you cut out a bunch of stuff. Here is what he said

I"t’s hard to beat Pletcher; wherever you go, it’s hard to beat him,” said Barclay Tagg, trainer of Nobiz Like Shobiz. “No matter where you are, what race you’re in or who the horses are, it’s almost impossible to beat him.”

These guys dont come right out and accuse each other unfortunately. But not hard to read between the lines

As I read between the lines, I would not be tempted to accuse Pletcher or Asmussen or Frankel or Motion or O'Neil or Van Berg or ---------------------- (fill in the blank) of using illegal substances to get their runners to out perform in a particular race their competitors. What I have noticed and it is a truism, "What goes up, must come down." I could speculate that the high percentage trainers 10 years ago were warned off because of their being caught using an illegal substance. But what I will believe is that because horses are not machines then they will go off form and a trainers whole barn can be affected when they are run too often and against superior competition or they become unhealthy or they retire them for the breeding shed or drop them into cheaper company because of their infirmaties or the owners send them to different trainers or a whole lot of other things and not because of juicing them or giving them venon of snakes or snails.

[point given]

As far as Biancone, he was asked to leave HK due to 2 drug violations. As far as Pletcher, for what its worth as hearsay on the internet; I did read on another forum last year , posted by an exercise rider for another barn talking with a pletcher assistant at a florida training center before shipping some horses to race in dubai, that they "had the good stuff" to get around the no lasix rules there. Wish I had saved the post, but it was edited and gone soon after posting.

Here is an article from the racingpost from May 24,2005 written about the frug problem which some may have missed.

http://www.racingpost.co.uk/news/cuttings_library.sd

sorry, it comes up blank, so, put in DRUGS as the subject and then the date of the article is May 24,2005 so you have to set the dates parameters to narrow down the time frame.

Additionally, Cobra venom has been used in England for a while. The drug labs are presently working on a test for it. However, there is another drug, conus snail venom which imho will be the next one, if not used already.

[thelyingthief]

the widespread belief in the use of illegal stimulants/depressants/performance-enhancers, coupled with the not nearly so widespread use of said-same, has produced a POSITIVE impact on the odds associated with legitimate contenders.

Fabricand's oft quoted "principle of maximum confusion" applies: a befuddled handicapping populace now has a succinct and irrefutable cause for their lack of success--a long needle packed with clandestine chemistry. thank god, for it: anything that reinforces my opponents' resistance to correct their ignorance of the game is GOOD, GOOD news.

[TurfRuler]

http://www.contracostatimes.com/sports/ci_6312210?nclick_check=1



Randy Winick saddled three horses in Breeders' Cup races, winning the Juvenile in 1993 with Brocco, but now spends his days as one of the three stewards (racing officials) at the Alameda County Fair, which runs through Sunday.

After training horses mainly for Mr. and Mrs. Albert Broccoli -- known for producing the James Bond movies -- Winick decided to change careers after both Mr. and Mrs. Broccoli passed away.

Albert died in 2003, then his wife passed two years ago, leaving Winick without many horses, as well as at a crossroad.

"After Mrs. Broccoli passed, the family didn't want to stay in the business," said Winick. "My stable had dwindled down, but I was looking for a way to stay in the business and this opportunity presented itself. Horse racing has been in my blood my whole life and this opportunity gave me a chance to stay in the business at a high level."

But before he became a steward, Winick enjoyed a career many trainers only dream about.

Winick attained one of the highest levels in racing when Brocco won the Juvenile at Santa Anita.

It was the third horse Winick had taken to the Breeders' Cup for the Broccolis, as he finished third in the Distaff in 1985 with.......

[TurfRuler]

Here is another story listed on equibase.com, regarding two of the trainer poster boys.....check out the comments at the end of the story.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070706/SPORTS08/707060501/1037

[Robert Fischer]

Robert,

With all due respect I really disagree here. I could sight all the statistics and considering the level he races at his consistency is mind boggling to me. But, just an observation and I have seen many trainers up close over the years.….

He saddled three animals in consecutive races at this years Tampa Bay Derby. I watched from the paddock at the way his crew and himself worked before and after each race. It was pure military precision and every horse hit the track gleaming. This is more than a professional IMHO; this is an extremely driven perfectionist who is not only a great stable manager, but a true horseman.

Just my opinion of course.
Maybe calling that "professionalism" is a bit old-school:D , never the less he deserves a couple more superlatives fine.



I think we kind of agree on the crux of the issue. Pletcher does all the little things right (a perfectionist), and Pletcher and his team is very well organized to precision. How about this?- hes the "general" ?




as far as I am concerned;

Pletch gets consistent quality performance from quality animals.
= bet to form and expect (extremely;) ) well prepared, quality animals.

Trainers I worry about- consistently produce runners who (dramatically) improve form. For the most part these animals are lesser quality than Pletchers stock and may have previous injuries.
= over-estimate form and allow for the animal to run a career best and even be a winning contender.

[alysheba88]

By the way McLaughlin was just suspended also

[DanG]

By the way McLaughlin was just suspended also
Do you have a link to the story 88?

BTW: Thanks for the heads up!!! :ThmbUp:

[alysheba88]

Its from DRF. Sure if you google can find additional info

http://www.drf.com/news/article/86319.html

[DanG]

Its from DRF. Sure if you google can find additional info

http://www.drf.com/news/article/86319.html

Thanks :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

Regardless of whether Pletcher cheats or not, when you have a discussion about him you have to at least acknowledge some of the differences between his stable and most other high class operations.

To begin with, he obviously gets the very best stock. Any horse that isn't cutting it never makes it to the track. If the horse makes it to the track and starts disappointing or having physical issues, it is either immediately dropped far enough in class so it can be competitive or it is sent to another barn. In addition, he has multiple strings. So he can send horses to wherever they fit the competition and conditions best.

He also has no problem shipping his very best horses to whichever stake around the country suits them. For example, there is a skill in the way he handled all his 3YOs this spring (really every spring) that allowed them all to be competitive and for the most part avoid each other.

With his stock, advantages, and management skill set, amost any competent horseman would produce a solid win percentage. That doesn't mean he's not cheating or pushing the envelop. I do not know. But his success is not shocking.

[alysheba88]

Regardless of whether Pletcher cheats or not, when you have a discussion about him you have to at least acknowledge some of the differences between his stable and most other high class operations.

To begin with, he obviously gets the very best stock. Any horse that isn't cutting it never makes it to the track. If the horse makes it to the track and starts disappointing or having physical issues, it is either immediately dropped far enough in class so it can be competitive or it is sent to another barn. In addition, he has multiple strings. So he can send horses to wherever they fit the competition and conditions best.

He also has no problem shipping his very best horses to whichever stake around the country suits them. For example, there is a skill in the way he handled all his 3YOs this spring (really every spring) that allowed them all to be competitive and for the most part avoid each other.

With his stock, advantages, and management skill set, amost any competent horseman would produce a solid win percentage. That doesn't mean he's not cheating or pushing the envelop. I do not know. But his success is not shocking.

Why not more BC and TC wins?

[DanG]

Why not more BC and TC wins?
Short answer…

Horses weren’t good enough IMHO.

How many of them did you honestly like going in?

I think Any Given Saturday was his first runner I actually liked in the Derby. I do remember really liking Speightown in the Lone Star-BC and he ran big.

Team effort and a measure of random occurrence in the TC / BC. Not too many rings on Ted Williams’s fingers, but no one would argue his impact.

[ELA]

Lukas did do it. Thats where he learned. Give us some credit. We understand all that. Not saying he doesnt have a well run operation. But his horses "explode" in an unnatural way. Im sorry if this makes people uncomfortable.

You missed my point. Obviously Pletcher learned from the school of Lukas, however, the comparison I was making was clearly about scope, depth, as I said. Lukas did not have that. You have to know the clientele Lukas had and the complexion of the owners, horeses, etc., as opposed to that of Pletcher.

Eric

[PaceAdvantage]

Why not more BC and TC wins?

A post like this implies that they ONLY test on BC and TC days, or that the BC and TC are the only times a detention barn is used....obviously, not true.

And seriously, do any of us really believe Churchill Downs was a bastion of enforcement? Hell, they "forgot" to test Holy Bull post-race after he lost the Derby....they FORGOT!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20030425/ai_n12498225

[gIracing]

you will never mistake me for a todd pletcher fan, but I am goign to come to his defense. I think people just don't like him because he's pletcher.

Pletcher has stables at New York, California, Florida, Kentucky & Illinois.

you think he is there to work on every horse every day? God no.

I'm not saying he didn't do it. But in his case, I wouldn't be suprised if someone in his camp took a little "extra incentive" to help the horse out. Look at the horse flesh he gets.. he doesn't have to reserve to cheating when he has people like Tabor who will go out and buy whatever he points at.

Assumusen on the other hand...23 FREAKIN TIMES!!!! That's no execuse for that. and one time testing 750x over the level necessary? i wouldn't send him a dead horse.\

Also, Petcher isn't god. the best horse he has had to DATE has probably been Rags to Riches. he gets a lot of REALLY good horses but I can't think o fone GREAT horse he has every had.

[gIracing]

Lukas did do it. Thats where he learned. Give us some credit. We understand all that. Not saying he doesnt have a well run operation. But his horses "explode" in an unnatural way. Im sorry if this makes people uncomfortable.


that 'explode", or turn of foot you are reffering to is common in AP Indy colts and fillies. it's one of the better charististics of his offspring. Mindshaft had it. Pulpit had it. Corthinthian (Ap Indy is grandsire) has it. Bernardini definatly had it. Golden Missle had it. It's a reason they charge 300k to bred to him.

to say all of his horses have that.... you must not have seen ther est of them run. look at this year. Cowtown cat is a front of the pace hold you off tye of horse with no kick whatsoever. Scat Daddy is the defination of grinder. Sam isn't even that good. Octave? I don't even know how you would descrive her, but "turn of foot" doesn't come to mind. Circular Quay has a turn off foot.. but he's a closer.. that's what closers do... and if he is jucing CQ he isn't doing a very good job.

[Robert Fischer]

There are two sides to my feelings on this. On one hand I care about racing. I want racicng to be cleaned up. They need to hire some really intelligent people and some really experienced people and pay them something to come up with improvements on the system. This side wants to end all cheating be it the most successful trainer, be it the winless trainer, be it the the 10 pt move-up trainer, be it the consistent trainer...

On the other hand there is the dry business aspect where I don't care who is actually cheating, I only care about what trainers are changing the horses form from what you see in the racing form and the replays. That side doesn't actually care if Pletcher juices because his horses are highly predictable,- Succesful doesn't change my wager if it is consistent success. And that side doesn't really care if the trainers that I have to allow for after handicapping form,pedigree,runningstyle,whateverelse, and watching replays- are cheating or they just happen to be the greatest horsemen by far with improving animals.

I try to keep a balance, but I do in fact care about the game.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by alysheba88
Lukas did do it. Thats where he learned. Give us some credit. We understand all that. Not saying he doesnt have a well run operation. But his horses "explode" in an unnatural way. Im sorry if this makes people uncomfortable.

that 'explode", or turn of foot you are reffering to is common in AP Indy colts and fillies. it's one of the better charististics of his offspring.

I hear what you’re saying “GI” and I think we both know what Alysheba88 is referring to.

Mr. X…

We all know who I’m referring to, but I’ll leave his name out to protect the “innocent” as Joe Friday would say… (Let’s refer to him as Mr X)

Many years ago before he went to So Cal, there was an infamous trainer at TUP who was winning at an interplanetary rate. I don’t follow that circuit, but obviously word spread quickly there was a cowboy who was turning ‘Ramblers into GTO’s. :faint:


I happened to see a simulcast from there one day and Mr. X had a runner 1st time off a claim. He went off 3/5 or thereabouts.

The animal had decent, but really nondescript form and was no better than 4 others on paper. 2 turn race and he broke 3rd. Shot to the lead on the backstretch and passed the leader like he was tied setting a wicked pace for the level. Maintained this margin on the turn and then did what is a tell-tale sign (to me) in relatively cheap animals…He re-broke and maintained a stakes quality stride to the wire winning by 20+. :eek:


Now…being that this was literally the 1st race I watched since hearing about Mr. X. of course it made more of an impression on me. He went on to being a major player in So Cal with many positive tests and national press…etc…etc…etc…

There are many things in life, sports, politics etc…that you can’t offer proof of, that you take to your grave as gospel. Doesn’t make your conclusions correct and we have recently gone great lengths in our nation of almost “trying” people in the news and that is contrary to our core values IMHO.

But…In an industry that is very resistant to change, I hope the players never stop making reasonable assertions without needlessly burying innocent people in the process.

[Greyfox]

[QUOTE=DanG][/i]


I hear what you’re saying “GI” and I think we both know what Alysheba88 is referring to.

Mr. X…

We all know who I’m referring to, but I’ll leave his name out to protect the “innocent” as Joe Friday would say… (Let’s refer to him as Mr X)

Many years ago before he went to So Cal, there was an infamous trainer at TUP who was winning at an interplanetary rate. QUOTE]


Why does the term "Mullins" keep popping into my head? Must be a throwback to an old Moon Mullins comic I guess.:lol:

[DanG]

Why does the term "Mullins" keep popping into my head? Must be a throwback to an old Moon Mullins comic I guess.:lol:
Never heard of the man Grey...;) :liar:

[alysheba88]

A post like this implies that they ONLY test on BC and TC days, or that the BC and TC are the only times a detention barn is used....obviously, not true.

And seriously, do any of us really believe Churchill Downs was a bastion of enforcement? Hell, they "forgot" to test Holy Bull post-race after he lost the Derby....they FORGOT!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20030425/ai_n12498225

Not implying all due to drugs or that none of the other tracks test. But it is stricter now for the big events. Correlation? Maybe maybe not. After all Dutrow won the BC Classic.

Whatever the reason, I think its blemish on his record.

The testers are far behind the cheaters. True in all sports.

There are posts here saying Pletcher gets the best horses. And then saying how you cant fault him for not winning the BC or TC races.

[TurfRuler]

Instead of getting the legal system involved in the alledged conduct of trainers here in the good ole USA, why don't you complainers form a group and go to Italy and stop these abuses on the poor little horsies over there! :mad:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/mafia-makes-killing-in-cruel-horse-races/2007/07/05/1183351372809.html

Mafia makes killing in cruel horse races
Email Print Normal font Large font Lorenzo Tondo and Malcolm Moore in Rome
July 6, 2007

Advertisement
AdvertisementTHE Mafia is reaping more than €750 million ($1.2 billion) a year from racing horses illegally through the streets of Sicily, a jockey says.

The races, in which the horses are often injured, are run over the hard asphalt or slippery cobbles of cities including Palermo, Catania and Siracusa.

The police seized a hippodrome full of horses, and 10,000 crates of performance-enhancing drugs, last year but managed to stop only seven out of an estimated 300 races.

Experts said the number of races this year would be far higher. Horse racing has long been a tradition in Sicily, but only recently has the Mafia seized control of the sport.

Gambling is illegal in Italy outside state-sanctioned shops.

[ponypro]

I personally think there is very little "cheating" and by cheating I mean illegal substances to mask pain and enhance performance. Heres what i do know.

There are basically 3 types of trainers

1. "gyp" trainers hay,oats water, old school low percentage a dying breed

2. Regular trainers maintain horses to the level their knowledge and finances allow

3. SUPER trainers that have unlimited resources to buy the best stock and give them unbelievable NUTRITION programs and the highest tech veterinary technigues available. Most of these guys are pretty well educated and very knowledgable in animal husbandry.

I think D Wayne Lukas was probably the first and what he did as a science was learn about nutrion like no one else. Its no coincidence that Pletcher and others trained under him. Here is a huge part of their focus

Lets assume the majority of horses performance issues revolve around
THE JOINT: Knees and Ankles.

The synovial fluid is the "gear grease" that keeps your joints fluid and pain free. A More expensive horse has better conformation and less joint strain which is a great starting point for the SUPER trainers.

Then the 4 most important supplements for joint health
Omega 3 fatty acids
Chondroitin
Glucosamine
Hylauronic Acid

And guess what one of the first side effects of a horse supplemented. THEIR COATS TURN TO MIRRORS. They are so slick and shiny. Thats very consistent with Lukas ,Pletcher, etc and these horse run like they look.

These have been given for years but more recently some Vets have made custom "SUPER Compounds" only available to their clients. These are technically "nutraceuticals" and not drugs. These guys appear to have an edge but its from a scientific and financial standpoint.

Thats why
Super Trainers dont claim off Super Trainers
Regular Trainers rarely claim off Super Trainers because theres not alot more to get out of the horse.

And thats why people with money flock to SUPER trainers. They know they will do everything imaginable to keep their horse healthy. I think they have too much to lose to cheat. I cant imagine why Biancone would do that other than an EGO issue where he simply wants it all. He already had a hell of alot

[gIracing]

Saying Assumusen is a super trainer because he is that much smarter than other trainers, is like me saying everyone in the world loves Pamala Anderson becuase she is a member of PETA

[46zilzal]

Drugs. I have a friend who works at Claiborne and is one of the major sources of why I have major disdain for D. Wayne. He tells me that just about all of his female horses come in there 'studdish' as the result of male hormone treatments and they have to "dry them out" as he calls it, before they will breed. Isn't it strange, ONLY Lukas' female charges have that tendency?

[alysheba88]

that 'explode", or turn of foot you are reffering to is common in AP Indy colts and fillies. it's one of the better charististics of his offspring. Mindshaft had it. Pulpit had it. Corthinthian (Ap Indy is grandsire) has it. Bernardini definatly had it. Golden Missle had it. It's a reason they charge 300k to bred to him.

to say all of his horses have that.... you must not have seen ther est of them run. look at this year. Cowtown cat is a front of the pace hold you off tye of horse with no kick whatsoever. Scat Daddy is the defination of grinder. Sam isn't even that good. Octave? I don't even know how you would descrive her, but "turn of foot" doesn't come to mind. Circular Quay has a turn off foot.. but he's a closer.. that's what closers do... and if he is jucing CQ he isn't doing a very good job.

I did not say all of his horses had explosive turn of foot,

Giving a non athletic person steroids wont turn them into a major leaguer either

[alysheba88]

I personally think there is very little "cheating" and by cheating I mean illegal substances to mask pain and enhance performance. Heres what i do know.

There are basically 3 types of trainers

1. "gyp" trainers hay,oats water, old school low percentage a dying breed

2. Regular trainers maintain horses to the level their knowledge and finances allow

3. SUPER trainers that have unlimited resources to buy the best stock and give them unbelievable NUTRITION programs and the highest tech veterinary technigues available. Most of these guys are pretty well educated and very knowledgable in animal husbandry.

I think D Wayne Lukas was probably the first and what he did as a science was learn about nutrion like no one else. Its no coincidence that Pletcher and others trained under him. Here is a huge part of their focus

Lets assume the majority of horses performance issues revolve around
THE JOINT: Knees and Ankles.

The synovial fluid is the "gear grease" that keeps your joints fluid and pain free. A More expensive horse has better conformation and less joint strain which is a great starting point for the SUPER trainers.

Then the 4 most important supplements for joint health
Omega 3 fatty acids
Chondroitin
Glucosamine
Hylauronic Acid

And guess what one of the first side effects of a horse supplemented. THEIR COATS TURN TO MIRRORS. They are so slick and shiny. Thats very consistent with Lukas ,Pletcher, etc and these horse run like they look.

These have been given for years but more recently some Vets have made custom "SUPER Compounds" only available to their clients. These are technically "nutraceuticals" and not drugs. These guys appear to have an edge but its from a scientific and financial standpoint.

Thats why
Super Trainers dont claim off Super Trainers
Regular Trainers rarely claim off Super Trainers because theres not alot more to get out of the horse.

And thats why people with money flock to SUPER trainers. They know they will do everything imaginable to keep their horse healthy. I think they have too much to lose to cheat. I cant imagine why Biancone would do that other than an EGO issue where he simply wants it all. He already had a hell of alot


I think that is very naive. It is the very best who are more prone to cheat.

Barry Bonds was already a very good player.

Biancone has a history of suspensions. Look back to Hong Kong 1999.

[alysheba88]

you will never mistake me for a todd pletcher fan, but I am goign to come to his defense. I think people just don't like him because he's pletcher.

Pletcher has stables at New York, California, Florida, Kentucky & Illinois.

you think he is there to work on every horse every day? God no.

I'm not saying he didn't do it. But in his case, I wouldn't be suprised if someone in his camp took a little "extra incentive" to help the horse out. Look at the horse flesh he gets.. he doesn't have to reserve to cheating when he has people like Tabor who will go out and buy whatever he points at.

Assumusen on the other hand...23 FREAKIN TIMES!!!! That's no execuse for that. and one time testing 750x over the level necessary? i wouldn't send him a dead horse.\

Also, Petcher isn't god. the best horse he has had to DATE has probably been Rags to Riches. he gets a lot of REALLY good horses but I can't think o fone GREAT horse he has every had.

You are right on all counts.

Neither of them can shine Allen Jerkens shoes

[GaryG]

I think that is very naive. It is the very best who are more prone to cheat.Naive at one end of the spectrum and paranoid at the other....

[PaceAdvantage]

Neither of them can shine Allen Jerkens shoes

Isn't it interesting that the trainer with the nickname "Giant Killer" never encounters the negative thoughts which plague guys like Pletcher and Dutrow?

I have nothing but respect for The Chief but I have to play devil's advocate here for a moment:

You'd think a guy with a storied history of beating heavy favorites with horses who seemingly appear many notches below on the talent scale would at least generate some whispers.

I guess it's as much about perception as it is about reality.

[gIracing]

Isn't it interesting that the trainer with the nickname "Giant Killer" never encounters the negative thoughts which plague guys like Pletcher and Dutrow?

I have nothing but respect for The Chief but I have to play devil's advocate here for a moment:

You'd think a guy with a storied history of beating heavy favorites with horses who seemingly appear many notches below on the talent scale would at least generate some whispers.

I guess it's as much about perception as it is about reality.

the guy has been around so long, he has forgotten what more of these young wippersnappers know.
Jerkins, Frankel, McAnalley, Mandella & the guy up at Golden Gate don't get questioned by me or anyone.

[PaceAdvantage]

the guy has been around so long, he has forgotten what more of these young wippersnappers know.
Jerkins, Frankel, McAnalley, Mandella & the guy up at Golden Gate don't get questioned by me or anyone.

I realize that...it's just interesting that with Jerkens' history nobody's ever brought up the possibility...especially in this day and age, when almost every trainer is viewed with a suspicious eye, and even your poster boys, like Bill Mott, get suspended....

[DanG]

the guy has been around so long, he has forgotten what more of these young wippersnappers know.
Jerkins, Frankel, McAnalley, Mandella & the guy up at Golden Gate don't get questioned by me or anyone.
GI,

You do realize hopping horses has been around long before you were born.

[alysheba88]

Isn't it interesting that the trainer with the nickname "Giant Killer" never encounters the negative thoughts which plague guys like Pletcher and Dutrow?

I have nothing but respect for The Chief but I have to play devil's advocate here for a moment:

You'd think a guy with a storied history of beating heavy favorites with horses who seemingly appear many notches below on the talent scale would at least generate some whispers.

I guess it's as much about perception as it is about reality.

And think about why he doesnt. Look at his horses. Look at how they win.

Its not about perception it is about reality.

The Chief is a horseman. Assjuicenn is a chemist

[alysheba88]

I realize that...it's just interesting that with Jerkens' history nobody's ever brought up the possibility...especially in this day and age, when almost every trainer is viewed with a suspicious eye, and even your poster boys, like Bill Mott, get suspended....

And again why isnt he suspect? Implied in your post is the idea that those who are suspect are completely innocent.

If you look at his horses day in and day out they dont have the same pattern as say Dutrows

[alysheba88]

Naive at one end of the spectrum and paranoid at the other....

Paranoid? How so? What have I said is factually incorrect?

I am not one to ever cry about bad beats or getting beat by the juice.

The cheating trainers are just part of the past performance. I dont ignore the so called "super trainers".

Again the powers that be get horse players to turn on one another. Instead of horseplayers demanding a honest game, united, they get us to argue amongst ourselves. They get you believing anyone who says anything is a loser. That anyone who questions is paranoid.

[PaceAdvantage]

And again why isnt he suspect? Implied in your post is the idea that those who are suspect are completely innocent.

Is that what I implied? How so? You don't have to convince me that cheating is more widespread than most want to believe....I'm not going to sit here and defend most of the lot....I only questioned the inclusion of Pletcher....

None of you guys have access to the barns of Pletcher or Jerkens or whomever, so all you can go by is whether or not the guy has ever been suspended and your personal perceptions and beliefs.

You don't know whether or not a certain trainer is 100% clean, just as you don't know whether a certain trainer is dirty with 100% certainty.

With that said, I find all of this interesting.

[alysheba88]

Is that what I implied? How so? You don't have to convince me that cheating is more widespread than most want to believe....I'm not going to sit here and defend most of the lot....I only questioned the inclusion of Pletcher....

None of you guys have access to the barns of Pletcher or Jerkens or whomever, so all you can go by is whether or not the guy has ever been suspended and your personal perceptions and beliefs.

You don't know whether or not a certain trainer is 100% clean, just as you don't know whether a certain trainer is dirty with 100% certainty.

With that said, I find all of this interesting.

Agreed. We do not know 100% when we are talking about those who have not been caught.

If you look at Jerkens whole career, who he associates himself with, how he goes about his business, the way his horses look, the opportunities he gives to people, he is less suspect than most others. I am confident he doesnt cheat but I definitely do not know for sure

[Hank]

The Plethcher issue is very interesting,given the number value and quailty of his stock,a very ordinary trainer would win a nice%,I know that Mr. Pletcher works VERY hard at his craft and is better than ordinary to say the least.At WHAT point does he decide he NEEDS to cheat to win?As someone said his get ALL the cutting edge vet and nutritional care,his are the best bred animals on the track and he STILL must resort to cheating to win?Like pa said we are not behind the barn door so we dont know for sure,but if one like Plethcher is a cheat that is truely sad.

[GaryG]

Speaking of Pletcher, he won G1 races on both coasts today, ran 1-2 in the UN.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Dec Bloodhorse interview with head CHRB vet Dr. Arthur:
"Malibu, CA:
Do you ever think there will be ANY infraction committed against a horse serious enough to ban someone from racing for life?

Dr. Arthur:
Yes, blocking an injury with a local anesthetic to race a horse so the horse won’t feel the pain. Even if you don’t care about the horse, remember almost every dead or paralyzed jockey was involved in an accident where a horse broke down. This may be what it takes. Even though there is no evidence to my knowledge this was anyway related to the Dutrow, Asmussen, Pletcher, and pending Mullins mepivicaine positives, it is the reasons racing jurisdictions must be so unforgiving with such cases."

[kenwoodallpromos]

"http://www.oaktreeracing.com/include.php?h=Feature+Story&f=/today/feature.html"
new story today about Mandella becoming a member of the Oak Tree board, and about the types of off-track activities. His wife is an officer with the Ca TOBA.
Of course I cannot say 100% always or never either way, even with PE drugs; but with Mandella I doubt he is in the habit of using Performance Enhancers.

[alysheba88]

The Plethcher issue is very interesting,given the number value and quailty of his stock,a very ordinary trainer would win a nice%,I know that Mr. Pletcher works VERY hard at his craft and is better than ordinary to say the least.At WHAT point does he decide he NEEDS to cheat to win?As someone said his get ALL the cutting edge vet and nutritional care,his are the best bred animals on the track and he STILL must resort to cheating to win?Like pa said we are not behind the barn door so we dont know for sure,but if one like Plethcher is a cheat that is truely sad.


Barry Bonds was on his way to the Hall of Fame before he bulked up. Was already very good.

Guys in the business world who have more than they will ever need get caught all the time doing immoral things. Why? Just human nature

Thats what people sometimes miss. While there are trainers who are mostly just chemists there are others who are good horseman and still cheat. That is an explosive (no pun intended) combo. Thats where things get taken to another level. No one is saying that some of these guys dont work hard or couldnt be successful without cheating.

[Greyfox]

Interesting article in today's DRF.
http://www.drf.com/news/article/86553.html

As reported by Andy Beyer:

"One of Biancone's horses tested positive in Kentucky for two substances that are banned on race day, an infraction that in other jurisdictions might have drawn a slap on the wrist. But Kentucky has a new sheriff in town - chief steward John Veitch - who is deadly serious about combating illegal drugs.

Investigators searched Biancone's barns at Keeneland Race Course. According to reports in the Daily Racing Form, they found a vial labeled "Toxin" - and the vial contained cobra venom. The forbidden substance can block nerves to stop the body's transmission of pain to the brain. Thus it could permit injured horses to keep giving all-out effort."

[kenwoodallpromos]

Interesting article in today's DRF.
http://www.drf.com/news/article/86553.html

As reported by Andy Beyer:

"One of Biancone's horses tested positive in Kentucky for two substances that are banned on race day, an infraction that ****in other jurisdictions might have drawn a slap on the wrist. But Kentucky has a new sheriff in town - chief steward John Veitch - who is deadly serious about combating illegal drugs.

Investigators searched Biancone's barns at Keeneland Race Course. According to reports in the Daily Racing Form, they found a vial labeled "Toxin" - and the vial contained cobra venom. The forbidden substance can block nerves to stop the body's transmission of pain to the brain. Thus it could permit injured horses to keep giving all-out effort."
____________________
I would like to know which those are!

[Marc At DRF]

from a separate drf story (Marty McGee), the one that started this thread:

"The June 22 search of Biancone's barns was conducted after one of Biancone's horses who raced in Kentucky tested positive for a derivative of caffeine and for a derivative of an inhalant, both of which are banned for raceday use, according to the source. Biancone also has a pending medication case in Southern California. The horse Iron Butterfly, trained at the time by Biancone, tested positive for salmeterol, a bronchodilator, in a January race at Santa Anita."

[Greyfox]

____________________
I would like to know which those are!

? which those what are?

[njcurveball]

I am guessing which of his horses?

[BillW]

for any vets here: I'm curious, given that snake venom is a huge red flag around a barn, would botox be just as effective and easier to obtain/cover-up? I know that I've seen some applications of botox has made me run at least fast enough to take a Gr. II. :lol: :lol:

[kenwoodallpromos]

? which those what are?
__________
"an infraction that ****in other jurisdictions""" might have drawn a slap on the wrist."
The boys in NY are facing possible 4 years in prrison for distributing it for race-fixing.

[Greyfox]

__________
"an infraction that ****in other jurisdictions""" might have drawn a slap on the wrist."

I guess you'd have to ask Andy that question.
As the Beyer article reads two substances were found that normally attract
minimal fines etc. However, the new gun in town took it upon himself to look deeper. That's when he discovered the Cobra Venom.
Andy does not say that the initial investigation was triggered by finding Cobra Venom in the horse.

[ELA]

It was published that the Biancone horse that came up positive in KY was positive for some derivative of caffeine (I don't remember if the name was published), and for a derivative of some sort of inhalant.

I would highly doubt if the horse came up positive for cobra venom. :rolleyes:

Eric

[Wiley]

I would highly doubt if the horse came up positive for cobra venom. :rolleyes:
Eric
You are right, but not necessarily because there was none present, per Beyer's article, cobra venom's identification is difficult in lab tests.
'Racing officials have known about cobra venom for some time, but the chemists can't detect it because it is administered in such small quantities.'


Also in Beyers article, I think it's great the harness guys will most likely get banned for life for cobra venom, if found guilty of venom use it will be interesting to see if Biaconne gets the same treatment.

'Harness racing has done so and has imposed severe suspensions on violators. When a father-son training combination was found to be using cobra venom and other illicit drugs at Saratoga Raceway, they were charged with a felony, and their licenses will probably be permanently revoked.'

[jotb]

And think about why he doesnt. Look at his horses. Look at how they win.

Its not about perception it is about reality.

The Chief is a horseman. Assjuicenn is a chemist


Talk about a true horseman. Here is a true Allen Jerkens story:

He once had a horse (Clean 'Em Up) that just didn't want to train. He'd freeze before leaving the gap, stand still on the track, wouldn't do anything - the horse just didn't want to run. Mr Jerkens got an idea:

For three or four straight days, he dressed the horse up every morning, let it go to the gap with the rest of the set, but he told the exercise kid to just say there with the horse while the other horses ran around. Then when Clean 'Em Up saw the other horses running around to just lead him back to the barn.

After the third day, the horse got so mad that it bit, kicked, stomped, you name it.

The horse then started to train and won its next start.

That kind of genius just isn't found, and that's why The Chief is THE BEST!

Best regards,
Joe

[point given]

Talk about a true horseman. Here is a true Allen Jerkens story:

He once had a horse (Clean 'Em Up) that just didn't want to train. He'd freeze before leaving the gap, stand still on the track, wouldn't do anything - the horse just didn't want to run. Mr Jerkens got an idea:

For three or four straight days, he dressed the horse up every morning, let it go to the gap with the rest of the set, but he told the exercise kid to just say there with the horse while the other horses ran around. Then when Clean 'Em Up saw the other horses running around to just lead him back to the barn.

After the third day, the horse got so mad that it bit, kicked, stomped, you name it.

The horse then started to train and won its next start.

That kind of genius just isn't found, and that's why The Chief is THE BEST!

Best regards,
Joe

Love it - reminds me of the Seabiscut movie stuff.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Marc, you cut out a bunch of stuff. Here is what he said

I"t’s hard to beat Pletcher; wherever you go, it’s hard to beat him,” said Barclay Tagg, trainer of Nobiz Like Shobiz. “No matter where you are, what race you’re in or who the horses are, it’s almost impossible to beat him.”

These guys dont come right out and accuse each other unfortunately. But not hard to read between the lines


As a horseman and trainer,Guys with big stables are very hard t beat..Where you may have 1 horse in your barn,He will have many that fit in that same race,Therefor your running the same horses against his many.As for Pletcher being a cheat,I hardly think so. He has many rich owners who can give him as many horses as it takes to win races.When you are big business mistakes will happen..As for PB and the snake venom..Im at a loss for words.

[Indulto]

... As for PB and the snake venom..Im at a loss for words.Is there any possibiity PB was setup?

[JustRalph]

Is there any possibiity PB was setup?

all three times. In three different countries?

[Spendabuck85]

Saturday Arlington 8th

Quasicobra - Trained by Biancone

[JustRalph]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=40531

Trainer Patrick Biancone has been ordered by Kentucky racing stewards to serve a 15-day suspension after a horse under his care tested positive for prohibited drugs at Churchill Downs this past spring, the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority said Aug. 30.

Biancone remains under investigation following a search of his barns earlier this year at Keeneland, officials said

~more at the link~

[coolbreeze3332000]

And that is how it is, He pays attention to everything,Of all the trainers I have been around, I feel like it would bother him to much to cheat, My personal opinion, He loves racing, And he had so much respect for me and the horses, And I could see that allot, and most of it came from mom and dad, And the way he was brought up. My gut feeling is that he would not cheat intentionaly. But I could be wrong, I am not under the pressure he is from owners. But I don't think he spends much time thinking of ways to cheat. He is just dam good. Breeze

[kenwoodallpromos]

And that is how it is, He pays attention to everything,Of all the trainers I have been around, I feel like it would bother him to much to cheat, My personal opinion, He loves racing, And he had so much respect for me and the horses, And I could see that allot, and most of it came from mom and dad, And the way he was brought up. My gut feeling is that he would not cheat intentionaly. But I could be wrong, I am not under the pressure he is from owners. But I don't think he spends much time thinking of ways to cheat. He is just dam good. Breeze
Are you looking at his total record here and overseas? Seems to be adding up to something...

[GaryG]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/89147.html

[Nacumi]

all three times. In three different countries?

:lol:

Of course. Just like Marian Jones was set up with "the clear."

Thanks to the appeals process, Bianconesnailvenom will still get to run his horses in the BC, etc. Further, he'll be able to transfer his string to his assistants, and the nonsense will continue. Until the owners and horses are benched, too, nothing will change for the better.

[Tom]

Suspend the HORSE too.
90 days - 120 days.

[boomman]

:lol:

Of course. Just like Marian Jones was set up with "the clear."

Thanks to the appeals process, Bianconesnailvenom will still get to run his horses in the BC, etc. Further, he'll be able to transfer his string to his assistants, and the nonsense will continue. Until the owners and horses are benched, too, nothing will change for the better.

Marion Jones actually was on steroids all along? What a shock!:lol: Roman Chapa gets 5 years for a machine and Patrick Biancone gets one year for injecting poison into racehorses? What am I missing here? Say it with me folks when trainers such as Biancone and Jane Vaders (and many others) get MULTIPLE positives, effectively assuring that these aren't by accident!

LIFETIME BAN!!!!!:mad:

Boomer

[Spendabuck85]

Bloodhorse article:

Biancone was suspended for one year for possession on the grounds of Keeneland of three sealed vials of alpha-cobratoxin (cobra venom), a Class A medication under the KHRA Uniform Drug and Medication Classification Schedule. The alpha cobratoxin was in a bag found in a refrigerator labeled with Stewart’s name.

Biancone was also suspended for a variety of violations relating to possession of medications without proper labeling and possession of injectables. He received 30 days for each violation involving injectables and 30 days for the labeling violations. The suspensions may be served concurrently with the one year he was suspended for the alpha-cobratoxin violation.

Biancone was also found to have violated a Kentucky regulation that requires him to report violations of the medication rules by Stewart. The stewards decided after their hearing that Biancone had reason to believe Stewart was in possession of alpha-cobratoxin on Keeneland property June 22, a violation of the Kentucky regulations. Biancone failed to report that violation to the KHRA veterinarian or the stewards, as is required by the Kentucky regulation.




http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41159

[Southieboy]

http://www.khra.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/858E5DAB-4484-479E-996D-A22DD378E5F2/0/070104.pdf

[kenwoodallpromos]

Plus he was just suspended from CD, plus Ca just gave him a suspended-suspension.
Get real folks, only jockey get tossed out of this game! (how's the Great Great Lakes Caper jockeys going? Did they all get rinstated or just the majority who were tossed with no appeal?
I think trainer ought to punishment to to jockeys' standards!
]I'll beat the same drum- take away stalls.

[lilmegahertz]

Totally agree Boomman....anyone who would put POISEN in any animal deserves

--------------------[if I type it I could be banned from here]. But since we really can't do what I would personnally do to these people, then I will have to settle for lifetime bans [along with a prison sentence for animal cruelty]

[46zilzal]

Totally agree Boomman....anyone who would put POISEN in any animal deserves


I contend that the overuse of bute and furosemide constitutes just the same amounts of animal cruelty as using a local anesthetic. These just cut off the source of the pain rather than the manifestation of it.

Mask pain and horses breakdown.

[lilmegahertz]

I contend that the overuse of bute and furosemide constitutes just the same amounts of animal cruelty as using a local anesthetic. These just cut off the source of the pain rather than the manifestation of it.

Mask pain and horses breakdown.

If you mask the pain and the animal breaks down, then that is abuse of the animal.

[alysheba88]

Deserves jailtime

[lilmegahertz]

Amen...with a big hairy cellmate named ---------. Is it obvious I try to fight for our fur friends [term includes scales, feathers etc.]?

[sally]

Is there any rule that says when a horse fatally breaks down in a race there must be a mandatory autopsy to determine if there were any illegal substances in the blood? If there were you'd think that could help deter cheaters-- especially if a jockey was injured and now there's a potential lawsuit...

[lilmegahertz]

Ohhhh good point Sally. Does anyone here know?

[WJ47]

This is amazing that they would resort to using cobra venom on race horses. :( I know that researchers are working with tarantula venom right now to see why it works on certain pain receptors in the body. The problem is that the tarantula gets pretty angry when you try to take its venom. The scientists have to give it a little anesthetic and take the venom fast! I just saw a special on this on one of the discovery channels.

I wonder how many drugs are being used on these horses that they haven't discovered yet. It's pretty bold to keep vials labeled "Cobra Venom" in your barn.

[Drift]

It's pretty bold to keep vials labeled "Cobra Venom" in your barn.


It was labelled as "toxin" or something like that-not venom.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Venom is by definition toxic; NOT keeping them label will kill a horse for sure because it is so powerful; All track fatalities are required to get necropsy in all jurisdictions- do not know if all or just most test for drugs.
Keep in mind that all the legal and illegal painkillers are used becuase otherwise the horse will be running in some kind of pain, or makes horses feel less tired.
The difference between giving horses painkillers or venom or CO2 or any other performance-enhancing or pain killing drug and human athletes taking drugs is that humans are supposed to be able to read a label and volunteer to take them- horse have no idea or choice. And of course cannot communicate an minor injury, so it is up to the human trainer, vet, and jockey to watch out for the animal getting too injuried, sore, or tired as to be in a physically compromising position.
I have seen reliable estimate sampling that shows about 25% of TBred racers leave racing each year due to injuy, and about 50% go out of training sometime during a year due to injury.
The more an animal is pushed by overwork, drugs, or any other reason to perform while at risk to less starts per year, the smaller the field size, the smaller the betting pools, and the less choice and selection in breeding for future runners.
If in the opinion of some connections the immediate share of a purse is worth the risk, they take their chances of getting caught.
IMO is is obvious by trainers pushing to keep horses in training, squeezing in as many races for non-stakes runners as possible, and the number of bugs winning riding titles, that the 2 things trainers understand and reach for is money and weight off. Punishments for performance-enhancing or totally banned drugs that cost trainers/owners significant money (penalty of an amount equal to the winner's share regardless of finish position) or 1/2 of stalls allotment for the next meet (free stabling) and adding weight to all horse on the roster (2lbs. per violation) will deter cheating. Suspended and concurrent suspensions, subsitute trainers, and $300.000 drug fines have no effect.

[DeanT]

I mentioned this story on the KEE thread. But here it is. These are the types of penalities needed, imo. People have to fear the grey-bar hotel, not the Ritz while their assistant trains a multi-million dollar stable, imo.

http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18889924&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=602469&rfi=6