The All Button

[bellsbendboy]

If a race has six or more entrants, and if your horizontal wager includes the "ALL" button; either you are unable to separate the possibles, or, you are you a TVG analyst, trying to get the munchkins to bet horses that have no chance? Either way, you're dropping coin! BBB

[Hajck Hillstrom]

Let's say you hit the SCHRUPP button (7 HORSES) in one leg, with 3 singles.

Cost: $7

Now, let's add a horse in each of the other legs.

1x1x2x7 = $14
1x2x2x7 = $28
2x2x2x7 = $56

Seems that you are doubling the price of the ticket with each addition outside of the Schrupp button. The cost of the ALL button isn't the expensive one if it yields a double digit winner. Of course, if the odds-on favorite wins, as the TVG on-air analysts agonize over every time they use it, it is very costly.

The ALL button can be a useful tool in the horizontal pools, but only when the favorite is very suspect.

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck

[ranchwest]

If a race has six or more entrants, and if your horizontal wager includes the "ALL" button; either you are unable to separate the possibles, or, you are you a TVG analyst, trying to get the munchkins to bet horses that have no chance? Either way, you're dropping coin! BBB

Lone Star Friday night. Race 2 is a lock. Race 3 is a two horse race. I wish I'd have hit the all button on R1 in the P3. His first race back at LS Eddie Martin, Jr. brings in an 80/1 shot. Sheesh.

[K9Pup]

If a race has six or more entrants, and if your horizontal wager includes the "ALL" button; either you are unable to separate the possibles, or, you are you a TVG analyst, trying to get the munchkins to bet horses that have no chance? Either way, you're dropping coin! BBB

If you are a decent handicapper then chances are if you are having trouble narrowing down a race then most others are too. Playing ALL DOES mean you aren't able to separate the possibles, but that isn't always a bad thing.

[point given]

Let's say you hit the SCHRUPP button (7 HORSES) in one leg, with 3 singles.

Cost: $7

Now, let's add a horse in each of the other legs.

1x1x2x7 = $14
1x2x2x7 = $28
2x2x2x7 = $56

Seems that you are doubling the price of the ticket with each addition outside of the Schrupp button. The cost of the ALL button isn't the expensive one if it yields a double digit winner. Of course, if the odds-on favorite wins, as the TVG on-air analysts agonize over every time they use it, it is very costly.

The ALL button can be a useful tool in the horizontal pools, but only when the favorite is very suspect.

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck

Right on point. I do it very rarely, when i think it is a value race and I dislike the favorites, in a p3. The only one that comes to mind was a BC ,when I had 2 singles i liked alot and volponi won the classic. One thing about using the ALL is to discuss the race with several handicappers whose opinion you value to see if its just your blindness to the race or a true chaos race.

[DanG]

Good topic Bells, :ThmbUp:

Chaos can be the best friend of the multi-race player.

My personal strategy changed forever when I heard Steve Crist on Harvey Pack’s recap show after he had hit the pick-6 that day. One of the legs was a huge bomb and one would need a search warrant to find a shred of logic to him winning.

The dialogue went something like this…





Harvey: “Steve, what could you possibly have seen in this horse?”
Steve: “Nothing”
Harvey: “Well that’s an honest answer…May I ask why you used him then?”
Steve: “Because I was strong in the other legs I was hoping for a random occurrence and fortunately it happened”
This “Random Occurrence” strategy is such a key element of most successful horizontal wagering teams that we should all pay royalties to Steve every time someone uses it.

HTR provides a “VI” rating…I.e.…Volatility Index that grades each event and assigns a probability to the favorite winning. It’s a very good strategy to handicap the entire string of a horizontal wager and be honest with yourself as to the potential of a “random occurrence.”

On that train of thought...The flip side of seeking Chaos is not having a feel for when to step back and punt. You can’t force bomb after bomb in multi-race bets day after day or your capital reserves and nervous system will need a transfusion quickly. In a typical pick-4 it’s just not likely that you’ll string together four clever 9-1 shots without some perfectly logical horse breaking the sequence.

There are defensive situations / aggressive situations and times when you really need to make a nice sandwich and let your fellow competitors have at it. All skills that are best honed through repetition with real money in a live environment IMHO…

[ranchwest]

DanG,

Excellent post. When it is seems difficult to project the winner, it probably is.

[the_fat_man]

Yeah, Ok.

Using the ALL button, which means you actually have NO OPINION, is probably similar to

JACKING off to GAY PORN when you're ACTUALLY STRAIGHT

Plenty of other races out there where you might have a strong opinion. Why not save your (pay) LOAD for when it counts.

Next, we'll tackle choas theory and it's connection to having-a-big-ass, i.e. ASS LUCK.

"Gee, how'd you happen to hit that pick 6?" "Easy, I HAVE A BIG ASS."

[Greyfox]

I seldom use the "all" but there are times that it is an absolute must.
For me those absolute "must" times are usually when a turf race lands right in the middle of a Pick 3 or Pick 4, and there are no obvious boomers.

[Tom]

8 out of 9 posts on topic and actaully part of a duscussion.
Guess this thread illustrates randon occurrence. :kiss:

[DanG]

Yeah, Ok.

Using the ALL button, which means you actually have NO OPINION, is probably similar to

JACKING off to GAY PORN when you're ACTUALLY STRAIGHT

Plenty of other races out there where you might have a strong opinion. Why not save your (pay) LOAD for when it counts.

Next, we'll tackle choas theory and it's connection to having-a-big-ass, i.e. ASS LUCK.

"Gee, how'd you happen to hit that pick 6?" "Easy, I HAVE A BIG ASS."
All right Fats!!! :jump:

Tough day on the bike? :D

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/guy_fall_on_bike.jpg

[K9Pup]

Yeah, Ok.

Using the ALL button, which means you actually have NO OPINION,


Actually no. It means you DO have an opinion, you believe there are no clear cut winners in that race.

No reason to throw ALLs all over the place, but again when I race looks hard for you to pick, it is probably hard for everyone else.

[Premier Turf Club]

All is very useful for 4th in supers. In research I did over the past 2 years (mostly turf routes), nearly every horse has some shot for 4th. In fact, long shots aren't that much less likely than short price horses. Logic behind that is generally speaking, short price horses will finish 1-2 if they run their race, and if they have an off day they are just as likely to run off the board.

In the one hole, IMHO, if you need to use more than 4 horses on top you don't have agood grasp on the race and should either pass or use the all. I can't tell you how many PK3's and PK4's I've blown with 5 horses in an 8 horse field.:mad:

[facorsig]

All is very useful for 4th in supers. In research I did over the past 2 years (mostly turf routes), nearly every horse has some shot for 4th. In fact, long shots aren't that much less likely than short price horses. Logic behind that is generally speaking, short price horses will finish 1-2 if they run their race, and if they have an off day they are just as likely to run off the board.

This was exactly my experience in my time as dedicated superfecta player. I played ALL in over 400 races wagered in the 4th slot and found that the longshots were as likely to complete as the favorites. The key in the superfecta is for a horse, any horse, other than the favorite to win. If the favorite is not second, the payoffs can go bonkers. If the favorite figures in top two, you stand high likelihood of payoff less than $100 and rarely a signer.

Superfecta is definitely a wager where you want the pool to be sized to match your expectation. I won a superfecta wager at RP 3 years ago where I expected $10k and got $900 instead.

PTC Member

[dylbert]

Real life use of all button today...

Race 8 -- Lady Joanne

Race 9 -- Fairbanks

Race 10 -- ALL

1 x 1 x 10 = $10 minimum to cover two horses that I have strong opinions on that have little (or no real) value in respective Win Pools.

Wanna get crazy, back up to Race 7 with ALL button = $110 wager into P4 pool being fueled by Octave and Corinthian players. As I finish this post -- Race 7 is final with $17 winner get next two right and get chaos in last race equal four-digit payoff for having being right in two very small fields.

[Tom]

Wrong ALL.

[gIracing]

There is only one time I will use the ALL button...

Stakes Race.

I don't even attempt to handicap stakes races anymore. Sounds silly.. but I have a logical (at least I think) theory behind it.

when I am looking at past performances, very rarley, and I mean VERY rareley, maybe in a maiden, is a owner not trying to win with his horse, or the horse isn't going to give his best effort.

It's damn near impossible to fully handicap a G2 or G1 stakes race becuase alot of the horses are being "pointed" towards a particular race, therefor you can just throw the last result or results out, hence why I don't even bother.

Perfect example is street sense in the derby. If you just LOOKED at his previous 2 races of the year, at least I, liked Curlin and Scat Daddy better. However, I wasn't nieve enough to think that SS was giving his best either.

That's fine and all in the DERBY, but not all races get that type of media attention and coverage.

that's why most Derbies have long shot winners... the horses would LIKE to win the preps, but they are more for "preping" the horses than actually running a winning race.

I remember I played the SA derby Pick 6 this year... and actually HIT the Derby.... it was later in the card that kicked my @@@.. that was a wacky day. but boy if i would have hit that I would have been sittin REAL pretty.


Other than that, if I can't come up with a logical choice in 2 or more races, I won't waste my time

[skate]

the quyestion itself is NOT relevant...:confused:


depends on how much $$$ you wanna play.
depends on the type of wager.

by itself "the question" defeats itself.:cool:

of coarse the Almighty ALL button is very usful at times.

and and and if you play a race and and and you lost, WHAT the heck, i guess you didnt do a good job capping, according to some answers:kiss: .

hey look, give yourself a chance, after you finish playing with your hotdog, never vever never play a Super, without using " ALL" :ThmbUp:

[skate]

and ya know, if you are out here to show me (others) just how great you are, fine, dont play the ALL.


but but ubttt , if ya wanna makes some $$$$.., think again;)

[gIracing]

Now I mean I don't play the aLL button for the hell of it.. in say a pick 6, every horse you are doubling your ticket.. if I can delete one horse from my wager all the better.. i dont' pick prices just because they are prices..


but the all button has it's perks.. handicapping is whatever works for you. it's no holy grail. some people don't understand what I do and I don't understand how some people do what they do

[skate]

that's 100% on...

[ranchwest]

Yeah, Ok.

Using the ALL button, which means you actually have NO OPINION, is probably similar to

JACKING off to GAY PORN when you're ACTUALLY STRAIGHT

Plenty of other races out there where you might have a strong opinion. Why not save your (pay) LOAD for when it counts.

Next, we'll tackle choas theory and it's connection to having-a-big-ass, i.e. ASS LUCK.

"Gee, how'd you happen to hit that pick 6?" "Easy, I HAVE A BIG ASS."

The ideal time for the ALL button is when you have part of the right idea.

Earlier I brought up the first P3 at LS Friday.

Asmussen has the heavy favorite lock in race two. No other strong trainers with horses in the race and this horse is strong. Not much chance of losing on that one, but not much chance for serious profit in that race alone.

Race three, two horse race that I'd rate pretty strong. Some might even consider it a one horse lock.

So, I play 4 horses from race 1. Cost me $8.

For $22, I could have hit the all button in race 1. The $1 P3 paid $388.20. You might not like $388.20, but I don't find anything "big ass" about it. I was the ass for NOT hitting the ALL button. Two locks and the ALL brings down big bucks, not a big ass.

[ELA]

I play "ALL" -- it's not a daily occurence nor is it a "never" for me, but I have played it. I've heard all the comments from "weak handicappers use ALL" to "it's a huge waste of money" and so on.

I see it being a good value play, on occasion neccessary, and sometimes it can be somewhat of a hedge-play. Although I don't have the specific and exact facts, when I have played ALL -- and hit -- I make money more than I lose.

Eric

[gIracing]

a PERFECT all button play is something like a Maiden 2YO race at hollywood where half the field hasn't ran

[toetoe]

fats,

Perhaps you knew my mentor in all things sexual? Mr. Jack "King" Gough. :ThmbUp:

[citygoat]

I will play a pick 3(3/1/2) and play a backup of a/1/2 3/a/2 3/1/a iif the horses I like are not super chalky

[rrpic6]

I can't tell you how many PK3's and PK4's I've blown with 5 horses in an 8 horse field.:mad:

Another example of this "phenomena". The Prarie Meadows late pick 4 (50 cent wager). Winners were Morning Line 2nd fav, 2nd fav, longest shot in a 6 horse field, favorite. I use 3 horses in the 6 horse field, where an "ALL" button punch gets half the pool, as there is One winning ticket for over 14K.
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/instant_pdf.cgi?type=inc&country=USA&track=PRM&date=2007-06-29&race=0