Victor Molina just kicked his horse in the stomach

[befuddlem]

Another folly at Philly

2 year old Yes Yes Ohyes just reared in the starting gate, and injured himself, thus causing a vet scratch. He had been acting up prior to this, and apparently jockey Victor Molina did not like this. His answer to all of this was to haul off and kick Yes Yes Ohyes in the stomach after he retrieved his saddle cloth. Did anyone else see this, and don't you think this act warrants a severe penalty for Victor Molina?

[boomman]

Yep, I believe it was Eddie King that got caught doing that years ago at Ak Sar Ben..........Boomer

[PaceAdvantage]

Horse abuse is more common than you think. A couple of months ago I witnessed an assistant starter reach back and PUNCH a horse right in the side of the head (I wonder if the guy broke his hand). This after the horse had the AUDACITY to knock the guy's hat off of his head.

I shit you not. This happened at a northern California track....

[toetoe]

Don't forget Carreno(?) in NY, whipping his horse while they were both down. :ThmbDown:

[befuddlem]

I've seen alot of this sort of thing over the years, but this really was a vicious kick.

[DanG]

Hopefully the owner of Hidden Meadow Farm was there and old Vic is looking for a t-bone to keep the swelling down. ;)

I kid you not; if old Willard Proctor had a rider do this that boy would be getting so many left’s he’d be begging for a right. :bang:

[ranchwest]

Horse abuse is more common than you think. A couple of months ago I witnessed an assistant starter reach back and PUNCH a horse right in the side of the head (I wonder if the guy broke his hand). This after the horse had the AUDACITY to knock the guy's hat off of his head.

I shit you not. This happened at a northern California track....

Yeah, and that's just the really bad stuff. Far too often I see assistant starters pull and push on horses to an extreme. Surely this has to have a major effect on the attitude or even the physical capability of the horse.

[Marlin]

Yeah, and that's just the really bad stuff. Far too often I see assistant starters pull and push on horses to an extreme. Surely this has to have a major effect on the attitude or even the physical capability of the horse.The gate is the most dangerous place on the racetrack. I've witnessed firsthand an assistant starter killed. Although like anything, some do go too far, but I would rarely critique their behavior. There first concern is the safety of the jocks and then themselves. Although some will find it outrageous the horse is way down the list. Most of the blame usually falls with the trainer. They have ample opportunities (everyday) to "school" their horse. Their misbehavior is a direct reflection of their ability to train. If you chart bad gate horses you will see that they often come from the same barn/barns. If they don't want their horse pulled, pushed, tonged, eared, tailed, or in some cases hit, they shouldn't lead them over until they are trained. After all a horse wont respond to "please calm down, sweetie!".

That being said, this jockey, if guilty has no business kicking a horse. The assistant starter who punched his horse, if it was merely because of the hat being tossed, has no business doing that. They both would deserve severe disipline.

[ELA]

I think there is one important distinction here, and perhaps there are some distractions from the real issue at hand. We are not talking about people's experiences, starter's being in danger, keeping control of a dangerous animal, discipline, or anything of the like -- we are talking about this specific case. In addition, we are not talking about whether or not it hurt the horse.

This is disgusting and deplorable behavior.

Eric

[befuddlem]

If they don't want their horse pulled, pushed, tonged, eared, tailed, or in some cases hit, they shouldn't lead them over until they are trained. After all a horse wont respond to "please calm down, sweetie!".




Let's see, you believe the trainer is at fault, so it's ok to take it out on a defenceless animal?

[Marlin]

about whether or not it hurt the horse.

This is disgusting and deplorable behavior.
Agreed!

[Marlin]

Let's see, you believe the trainer is at fault, so it's ok to take it out on a defenceless animal?
It's not OK, its neccessary.

[befuddlem]

It's not OK, its neccessary.

I guess you're just not into the whole horse whisperer thing.

[Premier Turf Club]

Another folly at Philly

2 year old Yes Yes Ohyes just reared in the starting gate, and injured himself, thus causing a vet scratch. He had been acting up prior to this, and apparently jockey Victor Molina did not like this. His answer to all of this was to haul off and kick Yes Yes Ohyes in the stomach after he retrieved his saddle cloth. Did anyone else see this, and don't you think this act warrants a severe penalty for Victor Molina?

I didn't see it, but if it's as bad as people say, they should rule Molina off the track for life. Jockey's that do something like that give up the right to earn a living at the racetrack IMHO.

[Marlin]

I guess you're just not into the whole horse whisperer thing.I don't want to get too far off topic for Eric's sake, but I think that HW does sometimes work. I've watched enough TV about the subject to become amazed. The best are really in tune with horse physcology. (non-verbal communication). In general, assistant starters are not the brightest bulbs on the tree. (still respect them to the utmost) After all you have to be somewhat goofy to get in a confined steel space with a 1500 lbs animal.:)

Back on topic! Molina deserves a healthy fine and a lengthy vacation.:(

[befuddlem]

Obviously, this whole thing has been caught on tape. I just wonder if any action will be taken, or if this incident will just be swept under the rug?

[ranchwest]

It's not OK, its neccessary.

I certainly realize that some physical force is required in getting some horses in the gate. After all, they are big animals going into a confined space and I know that the assistant starter has to go to some serious physical tactics to get the horse into place. However, I still contend that I've seen excessive and untimely force too often. It is mostly at smaller tracks.

[DanG]

I think there is one important distinction here, and perhaps there are some distractions from the real issue at hand. We are not talking about people's experiences, starter's being in danger, keeping control of a dangerous animal, discipline, or anything of the like -- we are talking about this specific case. In addition, we are not talking about whether or not it hurt the horse.

This is disgusting and deplorable behavior. Eric
I’m with Eric here 110%...we are talking about this specific case. (Which I did not see BTW)

Marlin ~ The gate is the most dangerous place on the racetrack. I've witnessed firsthand an assistant starter killed. Although like anything, some do go too far, but I would rarely critique their behavior. There first concern is the safety of the jocks and then themselves. Most of the blame usually falls with the trainer.

If you chart bad gate horses you will see that they often come from the same barn/barns. If they don't want their horse pulled, pushed, tonged, eared, tailed, or in some cases hit, they shouldn't lead them over until they are trained. After all a horse wont respond to "please calm down, sweetie!".

To a portion of Marlin’s point…

I will never advocate the abuse of animals in any way, but there are cases as he said when “sweet talk” just won’t work. There are rouges that will push you around the barn and take your milk-money if you don’t stand up for yourself.

Example;

Early on with very limited experience around horses my brother wore sneakers on the backside and his favorite horse ‘Morse stood on his foot. If you’ve ever had 1,000 pounds in medal shoes on your foot you know how pleasant it is. There was no reasoning with old ‘Morse and he screamed out and Proctors assistant came over and wrapped “Morse him on the nose. It startled the horse and he jumped back releasing his foot. Willard later told him just how to do it if it happened again.

The kicking, punching or worse…I think we can all agree these people should be ruled off the track. I am with Marlin on coming down too hard on many starters though. That is one wild line of work and the good ones are worth their weight in gold. Also I agree it sure does seem like the same barns have more than their share of bad actors.

[Doc]

I was on the backstretch this afternoon and from what I heard, the owner and trainer of the horse were okay with what Molina did, because the horse had been a "problem." That's sad that they feel that way ... maybe THEY were the "problem" in not schooling and training the horse in a proper manner. Many vices/bad habits of horses can be directly attributed to its handling and training. I know Molina was removed from the jockey's room by security and we should be hearing about a penalty shortly. No defending Vic's actions today, but he IS one of the more milder-mannered personalities in the jockey colony and I am very surprised at his actions.

Doc

[john del riccio]

I think PHA has a 3 ring circus going on there..they gotta get a grip soon.

True Story: My first foray into owning horses, I had a 2yo in partnership with many others, trained by Mr. Croll (of Holy Bull & Bet & Twice fame), that would be the elder Croll, not his son. This 2yo was mean as could be. An exercise rider from the adjacent barn stood with her back to him (mistake number 1), and he bit her on the back (mistake number 2). She turned around and right in front of me and through a right upper-cut and caught him on the chin (mistake number 3). He reared up. At MTH Park, the stalls have a 2x4 above the doorframe and he clocked himself right on the head and momentarily blacked out. A week later, he blacked out again during a workout. Eventually he was put down. I was so pissed off the day that woman hit him that I almost forgot she was a woman (you can read between the lines). The saddest thing of all is that even with a top notch horsemen like Mr. Croll, no one blinked an eye. No repermanding, no repercussion, no compensation, no nothin'. Welcome to the world of thorughbred ownership!

Needless to say, it took a LONG time for me to get over that experience. Unless you have spent any time on the backstretch, you would be very surprised at many of the goings on.

Let me say this. If I was the owner of the 2yo that Molina kicked today, I would have been told to pick on someone my own size (I'm not a giant at 5'8, 155lbs). When 2yo's have a bad experieince, and it sets them back for months, they need to forget before they can progress. Its like you have to hit the reset button and start all over again. The owner & trainer of this baby should probably look for another line of work because they just don't get it.

JOhn

[Hajck Hillstrom]

I didn't see it, but if it's as bad as people say, they should rule Molina off the track for life. Jockey's that do something like that give up the right to earn a living at the racetrack IMHO.I saw it, and my take was that they should allow Clifford Sise and Hidden Meadows Farm to sit in judgement. Their horse.....their call.

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck

[chickenhead]

I think it's pretty sad that a guy that would kick a horse in the stomach is described as one of the classier guys in the jocks room. That's pathetic.

[befuddlem]

I think it's pretty sad that a guy that would kick a horse in the stomach is described as one of the classier guys in the jocks room. That's pathetic.

I think Doc said he was one of the more mild-mannered people in the room.
Perhaps this is the case, but Mr. Molina obviously has a temper which he will have to control should he ever be allowed to ride again.

[chickenhead]

sorry, I was referring to the Bloodhorse article, not Doc.

Sinatra: “He did use very, very poor judgment. It’s unfortunate, because he’s one of the classier guys in our jockey colony.”

It's hard to win the argument that racing is not filled with low lifes who don't care about the horses, if racing is in fact filled with low lifes who don't care about the horses.

[PaceAdvantage]

This story has gone national....but then again, it's a negative story about racing, so I suppose going national was a given....

[kenwoodallpromos]

I saw it, and my take was that they should allow Clifford Sise and Hidden Meadows Farm to sit in judgement. Their horse.....their call.

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck
___________________
I waited until I just read the full story and that Jockey club rules demand removal from the grounds. I agree with that action.
I also read that many TVG "fans" (bettors) complained; not the general non-racing public.
Their horse- their call IMO is a bad attitiude.
And in light of the Seabiscuit, and Barbaro stories and knowing the non-racing public's concern for Barbaro and extremely few using the Barbaro story to condem all of racing, I do not believe that going national just because it is a negative story is an accurate reflection of the natioal media. I think the national media just has as short of attention span of racing as the rest of the public does, and put the story out precisely Because they know it is uncommon. Negative PR over positive may seem a given, but positive PR has top be the responsibility of racing to put out, and did not see much of the female Belmont win being pushed to the general public by racing. Positive PR is racing's horse, racing's call.

[jma]

I am really surprised that Victor Molina did this. He always seemed pretty mellow to me. That aside, it's yet more bad publicity for racing. It's not surprising to me that it went national---if a baseball player had kicked another in the stomach last night, that would have gone national too. It might not be a "surprising" event to those in racing, but that is just sad. Hard to say much more than that.

[Greyfox]

Molina's take:

"I feel very sorry for what I did. The horse hit me hard in the chest and got me mad," Molina said from his home. "I've been riding for 27 years, and it's the first time I did anything like that. I make a living off the animals and don't want to hurt them. I knew it was wrong and expect some repercussion, but it would be crazy to rule me off."

Story at: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/8065352.html

[Doc]

___________________
I waited until I just read the full story and that Jockey club rules demand removal from the grounds. I agree with that action.
I also read that many TVG "fans" (bettors) complained; not the general non-racing public.
Their horse- their call IMO is a bad attitiude.
And in light of the Seabiscuit, and Barbaro stories and knowing the non-racing public's concern for Barbaro and extremely few using the Barbaro story to condem all of racing, I do not believe that going national just because it is a negative story is an accurate reflection of the natioal media. I think the national media just has as short of attention span of racing as the rest of the public does, and put the story out precisely Because they know it is uncommon. Negative PR over positive may seem a given, but positive PR has top be the responsibility of racing to put out, and did not see much of the female Belmont win being pushed to the general public by racing. Positive PR is racing's horse, racing's call.

It wasn't strictly a legion of TVG fans calling in to complain - Philly Park racing is broadcast daily over Comcast Philadelphia and it's picked up in hundreds of simulcast outlets nationally. TVG doesn't have a special television crew at Philly showing something different than what everyone else is seeing. Sometimes I have Comcast on in the kitchen and TVG on in the living room and, besides a five second delay, the show is identical.

Doc

[ghostyapper]

I was on the backstretch this afternoon and from what I heard, the owner and trainer of the horse were okay with what Molina did, because the horse had been a "problem."

If thats the case then the owner and trainer are idiots. Its not like he kicked him in the stomach to get him in the gate, he did it after the horse was scratched just out of frustration. Molina needs to remember that if it wasn't for these animals, he'd be flipping burgers somewhere.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

Their horse- their call IMO is a bad attitiude.
I disagree. If Clifford Sise Jr. and Hidden Meadows Farms choose to do nothing, I believe THAT would be a mistake. I believe the SEVERITY of the punishment should be influenced by those whom it directly impacted the greatest.

This is a visual "Black Eye" for racing. Let's not get worked up in a lather over it. Our efforts would be better served in an attempt to stop the "Internal Bleeding."

Maybe I should be more upset, but in the greater scheme of things, this just appears to me to be a spin on the "Man Bites Dog" story.

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck

[befuddlem]

This is a visual "Black Eye" for racing. Let's not get worked up in a lather over it. Our efforts would be better served in an attempt to stop the "Internal Bleeding."
Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck

This was abuse of an animal. Never mind the black eye for racing.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

This was abuse of an animal. Never mind the black eye for racing.With respect.... There are daily abuses to animals in this sport, which are condoned, that would make Molina's actions akin to spitting on the sidewalk. I am neither approving or disapproving, just observing.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Sise has a +ROI for 1st starters- which this was; the horse in question had several 3 and 4f workouts, the best finish of which was 25th! I believe only 1 official gate work showing. Maybe this is just not a Hurry-up type horse!
Would Molina have kicked it in stomach if he had to get back on it and it was not scratched, or if the horse a gastric ulcer and Molina knew it?

[befuddlem]

With respect.... There are daily abuses to animals in this sport, which are condoned, that would make Molina's actions akin to spitting on the sidewalk. I am neither approving or disapproving, just observing.

You say you that you are neither approving or disapproving. What's your point? My point is that measures have to take place that will curb this sort of thing, and you chime in saying the kick looks like a spit on the sidewalk.

[TurfRuler]

How sad for the dead people that were run over by the drag racer the other day. Just think if Molina would have been killed when the horse reared, most would be shouting for joy it seems to me.

[ryesteve]

With respect.... There are daily abuses to animals in this sport, which are condoned, that would make Molina's actions akin to spitting on the sidewalk.
Easy to say when you're not the one getting kicked in the gut...

[kenwoodallpromos]

How sad for the dead people that were run over by the drag racer the other day. Just think if Molina would have been killed when the horse reared, most would be shouting for joy it seems to me.
SO in this thread about a jockey kicking a horse AFTER all other contact between him and the horse is over, you ASSUME that non-racing fans want dead jockeys when a horse is uncontrollable in the gate? You lost me as to the connection or the basis for your opinion.
I hope we learn why the horse reared in the first place.

[TurfRuler]

SO in this thread about a jockey kicking a horse AFTER all other contact between him and the horse is over, you ASSUME that non-racing fans want dead jockeys when a horse is uncontrollable in the gate? You lost me as to the connection or the basis for your opinion.
I hope we learn why the horse reared in the first place.

Why kick a live jockey for kicking a horse. I would have destroyed the dragracing car though if my family member was "kilt." Stay lost trying to connect with my posts.

[46zilzal]

I work the gate every weekend and the assistant starters are fearless. They REACT when an animal is tough to load, but as yet, the strongest thing they've done is cuss real loud.

[befuddlem]

I work the gate every weekend and the assistant starters are fearless. They REACT when an animal is tough to load, but as yet, the strongest thing they've done is cuss real loud.

Yes, that Hastings gate crew does seem to be a competent lot. Kudos to you.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

You say you that you are neither approving or disapproving. What's your point? My point is that measures have to take place that will curb this sort of thing, and you chime in saying the kick looks like a spit on the sidewalk.My point is this....

Have you ever watched jockeys wail away on a horse with blatantly excessive stick work, and then return to the Winner's Circle to the cheers of the crowd and connections?

I see this practice occur during every race on every card of every track in this country!

Until jockeys are required to ride sans whips, I won't complain about the abuse that these great animals experience. The sport appears to most to be predicated on abuse and cruelty, and to enjoy the very nature of the sport you had better be pretty thick skinned.

I think if you reviewed some of the medication practices that are applied daily at racetracks across this country, you would almost be forced to view Molina's actions as a sign of affection by comparison.

I do not sit in judgement of others, nor will I be hyprocritical enough to put the blinkers on when it comes to the abuse of these fine animals.

Now, befuddle me some more with your logic. Until the sport bans the use of the whip, the topic of abuse should be off the table. Please, if I have missed the point, enlighten me......:bang:

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck Hillstrom
Seattle, WA

[GaryG]

From DRF:

Victor Molina, the veteran rider who was ejected from Philadelphia Park on Monday after kicking a horse in the stomach before the third race, apologized on Tuesday "to everyone I may have hurt" and said he would accept whatever penalty results from the ejection.

[ELA]

I race horses at Philly, I don't know this jock, nor has he ever ridden for me. I don't know the trainer, or the owner. However, as a lifelong fan, bettor and owner, I consider myself an ambassador of this sport and business. If I knew the jock, my opinion wouldn't change. This behavior is despicable. Heat of the moment is not justification. The animal kicking the jock is not an excuse. The jock getting hung up or hurt is not vacillation. None of it is. I understand the jock's mindset and position, and how he was angry -- however, I cannot and will not accept that as an answer.

This jock is a professional and must have the discipline and control to act and behaive like a professional. In this case he did not. He made a terrible mistake and his actions were completely unprofessional and deplorable -- PERIOD! He should be punished and will be.

Should he be ruled off for life? No, I don't think so. But a very clear and sterm message must be sent.

Eric

[Kelso]

I disagree. If Clifford Sise Jr. and Hidden Meadows Farms choose to do nothing, I believe THAT would be a mistake. I believe the SEVERITY of the punishment should be influenced by those whom it directly impacted the greatest.

This is a visual "Black Eye" for racing. Let's not get worked up in a lather over it. Our efforts would be better served in an attempt to stop the "Internal Bleeding."


I could scarcely disagree more with your blase' attitude.

The HORSE was "impacted the greatest" ... not the connections. And KICKING THAT HORSE IN THE STOMACH served no rational purpose whatsoever. It could, however and to your point, have caused GENUINE "INTERNAL BLEEDING."

It should be an industry imperative to protect from abuse the objects of all its hughly rewarding breeding/selling/racing/wagering activities ... certainly from a financial perspective, but first and foremost from a humanitarian perspective.

It's jerks who KICK HORSES IN THEIR STOMACHS who keep jerks such as PETA in business.

Yes, indeed, LET'S GET EXTREMELY LATHERED UP ABOUT THIS ... as racing fans and, far more importantly, as civilized human beings. There is no justification for blithely dismissing it ... which is how I read your suggestions.

[Greyfox]

My point is this....

I think if you reviewed some of the medication practices that are applied daily at racetracks across this country, you would almost be forced to view Molina's actions as a sign of affection by comparison.

I do not sit in judgement of others, nor will I be hyprocritical enough to put the blinkers on when it comes to the abuse of these fine animals.

\Hajck Hillstrom
Seattle, WA

Carry On, Carry On

"You would almost be forced to view Molina's actions as a sign of affection by comparison..."

A sign of affection?:lol: That begs an explanation.

So you won a handicapping something or other, carry on carry on.
A kick in the belly for a horse is worse than medication, but carry on.
So please tell expand on that theory.
Carry On, Carry On




A kick in the belly is a sign of affection by comparison

[ELA]

Aside from all the BS being bantered around here, just as an FYI, Victor Molina will be a guest on At The Races And Beyond with Steve Byk on Thursday.

I've read some of Molina's comments, heard comments he's made, and have seen his actions since the incident. Although it doesn't change the facts -- what's done is done -- and he should and will be punished, so far, I think he's done the right thing. He's stepped up, taken the critisizm -- will continue to do so, made no excuses whatsoever, hasn't attempted to justify his behavior, etc. He voluntarily took himself off his Monmouth Park mounts and also voluntarily did not appeal the decision to suspend him pending a hearing. The appeal would have allowed him to ride pending a hearing.

He's stepped up. Doesn't change the facts, but he's stepped up.

Eric

[PaceAdvantage]

Hillstrom has a point, and it's good he's getting this kind of reaction, because his point needs to be heard loud and clear.

There is SERIOUS abuse going on behind closed doors at every corner of this industry, from the juicing of yearlings to the injecting of TEFLON into an old claimers busted up joints.

To scream outrage at Molina while turning a blind eye to the everyday abuse that is JUST AS BAD if not WORSE is the point HH is making, and it needs to be addressed.

[Greyfox]

Hillstrom has a point, and it's good he's getting this kind of reaction, because his point needs to be heard loud and clear.

There is SERIOUS abuse going on behind closed doors at every corner of this industry, from the juicing of yearlings to the injecting of TEFLON into an old claimers busted up joints.

To scream outrage at Molina while turning a blind eye to the everyday abuse that is JUST AS BAD if not WORSE is the point HH is making, and it needs to be addressed.

Then start another thread addressing that "supposed" problem, supplying evidence.
In the meanwhile a jockey kicked a horse in the belly.

[DanG]

Hillstrom has a point, and it's good he's getting this kind of reaction, because his point needs to be heard loud and clear.

There is SERIOUS abuse going on behind closed doors at every corner of this industry, from the juicing of yearlings to the injecting of TEFLON into an old claimers busted up joints.

To scream outrage at Molina while turning a blind eye to the everyday abuse that is JUST AS BAD if not WORSE is the point HH is making, and it needs to be addressed.

I’m with PA here…

I can’t put words in Hajck’s mouth, but he is not condoning this behavior in any shape or form as far as I can tell. In my view he’s attempting to put the incident in perspective considering the abuses that take place before and most importantly hidden from our eyes every single racing day.

Good discussion and if we the horseplayer won’t talk about it openly…who will?

[PaceAdvantage]

Nobody is saying kicking a horse in the stomach is a kind act or something that should not be punished. On the contrary.

And there's no need for me to start a new thread at the moment, because I have nothing more to add. I also don't need to supply evidence as I am not accusing anyone directly or by name.

[Greyfox]

I’m with PA here…

I can’t put words in Hajck’s mouth, but he is not condoning this behavior in any shape or form as far as I can tell. In my view he’s attempting to put the incident in perspective considering the abuses that take place before and most importantly hidden from our eyes every single racing day.

Good discussion and if we the horseplayer won’t talk about it openly…who will?


Not disagreeing. Subject for a new thread.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, one could start a new thread, or one could continue with this thread's main theme (that of horse abuse) which wouldn't be off topic at all, considering we all agree that what Molina did was abusive. The Molina story itself is played out at this point....

[Kelso]

To scream outrage at Molina while turning a blind eye to the everyday abuse that is JUST AS BAD if not WORSE is the point HH is making, and it needs to be addressed.


Easy enough to agree with your point, PA. Yes, "everyday abuse ... needs to be addressed."

But Hajck addressed his comments to readers of your forum, and I've yet to read anything herein that even hints at "turning a blind eye" to any other abuses. To the contrary, severe criticisms of drugging, whipping, misfeeding, undertreating, overracing and otherwise abusing (northern winter racing?) racehorses are frequently posted.

Hajck appears quite content, however, to reduce this damnable behavior ... KICKING A HORSE IN THE STOMACH ... to the gravity of spitting on a sidewalk. He stated it here and, in my opinion, that should be addressed here.

[Greyfox]

There is SERIOUS abuse going on behind closed doors at every corner of this industry, from the juicing of yearlings to the injecting of TEFLON into an old claimers busted up joints.

.

"And there's no need for me to start a new thread at the moment, because I have nothing more to add. I also don't need to supply evidence as I am not accusing anyone directly or by name. also posted by P.A.

No you haven't accused anyone, directly.
You have accused though.
And you've said that there is SERIOUS abuse going on.
If that abuse is going on then just as
Carry On, Carry On implied, please expand.

P.A. You've said :
1. something is going on behind closed doors. (SERIOUS ABUSE)
2. that may include injecting Teflon into old claimers.
3. there's no need to start a new thread.

Ahem?

That was all in defense of a handicapper who implied that kicking a horse in the belly would be affectionate in comparison to....
If a new thread on this one isn't going to be started,
Carry On, Carry On should expand on his comparisons on how
the kick in the belly would be affectionate in comparison to....
His comments in that department beg an explanation, not a defense from
you.

[befuddlem]

Now, befuddle me some more with your logic. Until the sport bans the use of the whip, the topic of abuse should be off the table. Please, if I have missed the point, enlighten me......:bang:

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck Hillstrom
Seattle, WA

You've completely missed the point here. What Molina did was WRONG!
End of story.

[WJ47]

I think it's pretty sad that a guy that would kick a horse in the stomach is described as one of the classier guys in the jocks room. That's pathetic.

That gives me a horrifying visual of some real shady jocks at Philly Park.

I didn't see the kick so I really don't know how bad it was. It was definitely a terrible thing to do. I've owned horses for alot of years and I've been stepped on, kicked, bitten, and pinned to the wall. One of my horses was spooked by a bird and jumped sideways onto my foot, breaking it. It would have never occurred to me to hit one of them. I always figured that the horse can't really help his savage nature; after all, he's a horse. :) It's just the risk we take for the privilage of being around these beautiful animals.

There were alot of cruel things that I saw at the boarding facility. When I had my colt gelded, the vet asked if I would like to pay $40 extra for anesthetic (a local). Apparently some owners just forgo that expense. Other owners would take the colts down to the Amish for a real cheap gelding; one person told some real horror stories and I was disgusted.

I don't know what kind of punishment Molina deserves. It seems strange to me that after 27 years riding, he's never lost his temper like that before. To do that to a horse would indicate a serious anger problem. I guess he could have had the world's worst day and just lost his mind, but that seems odd. Also, if he knew he was on television and being broadcast at 100's of simulcasting locations live, you would think he'd be able to control his temper. I could even see (but not condone) if the horse reared up or kicked him and it was an knee jerk reaction but to kick a horse after unsaddling him (especially a hurt horse) is really bad.

It sounds like he's taking responsiblity and is obviously sorry for what he did. He'll probably have to go to counseling or anger management and serve a suspension. I'm suprised that the owners aren't making much of it, if it were my horse, I'd be furious. The owners and trainers have probably seen far worse so they're desensitized to this sort of thing. :( This poor colt was already scared and nervous in the gate, then he hurts himself and gets kicked by the jockey. That could ruin him for life; horses really have long memories as far as pain and unpleasant treatment go.

[jognlope]

I don't understand this behavior. Anyone can lose his temper, should not kick a horse with the toe of boot, although some trainers will use flat of boot in the tummy to get horse to stand still in cross ties, not me. Better to back up, lunge. Take a breath and use the brain!

[ryesteve]

I don't get some of you people. For any act of wrongdoing, no matter how slight or how heinous, you'll always be able to point to something that's even worse. So what exactly is the point of doing so, if not to try to provide a context for a rationalization? Just view the act for what it was. Do you really think Molina's agent or lawyer will try to exonerate him with the "they inject horses with teflon" defense?? That has nothing at all to do with what he did. If you get busted for a DUI, are you going to tell the judge, "Yeah, but Jeffrey Dahmer killed people and ate them!" and expect to be let off because your crime was like "spitting on the sidewalk" in comparison?

[DanG]

I think we all agree, this is just an indefensible act.

The thing that really gave this another dimension was this was a baby he kicked. NO animal should be kicked, but if this was a 9yo gelding that was meaner than a snake and had racked him up in the gate before…you ALMOST say…well, its temporary insanity and you’re ONLY suspended for a year.

A FTS 2yo who doesn’t know what the hell is going own acts up and you lash out? This is a sign you have real mental issues IMHO. :ThmbDown:

[turfeyejoe]

Usually, you can find anything that happened in the world that people are talking about on YouTube. I can't find Molina kicking the horse, however. Is there anyplace online where the video of the incident can be viewed?

[jognlope]

Phily newspaper story:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20070619_Jockey_kicks_horse__is_ejected_Victor_Mol ina_was_caught_on_camera_at_Philadelphia_Park__spa rking_complaints_.html

[kenwoodallpromos]

Louisville, Phil, ESPN; no other press yet.

[TurfRuler]

In the book "The Horse That God Built", it is reported that this horse Secretariat purposefully stepped on a kitten, several by implication, whenever they walked underfoot. I'm sure with the proper PR and no cameras no one would have known. I know I've tried to kick the person I was fighting in the nuts.

[jognlope]

Well I won't tell that story to my Secretariat loving friend!

I was at a barn one day and there was a little of kittens. The runt of the litter heard a horse coming down the aisle and went and sat right in the middle and the horse went around it. Now that's moxey!!!

[Zman179]

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20070620_Ejected_jockey_apologetic_after_kicking_h orse.html

The decision has been made on the horse. Yesterday morning, Yes Yes Ohyes was gelded. :eek:

The horse was probably like, No No Ohno!!!! :lol:

[BillW]

Molina is scheduled to be on At The Races today at 5:00 PM EDST (The last I heard anyway)

[BillW]

That's 6:00 PM EDST Not 5:00 For Molina on At The Races - Sri :blush:

[ELA]

After reading this entire thread, again, I think it is natural that the orginal issue at hand -- this specific case -- often gets lost in the discussion. This is not about people's experiences, nor is it about the cruelty that exists in this business. What people see and know about outside of this incident truly has nothing to do with this incident.

Comparing something (this incident) bad to something else worse to make this sound better is foolish. If it's done in an effort to explain or justify this, then I feel sorry for those that attempt that. If it's done in order to trivialize this, again, I feel sorry for those people and their efforts. It is nothing more than a waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

Several years ago a jockey who I was friendly with, who was client at the time, did something similar to this. He behaved despicably. I was on-track when this incident took place. People started talking about this guy being a bad guy, his past (off-track), other incidents that worse, not as bad, etc. Others defended his actions and said that much worse takes place behind closed doors, even going as far as talking about medication abuse and other unrelated matters. I was one of the first people the jockey saw when he came back to the jocks room -- after his agent. Several jocks made comments to him, questioned him about why he did what he did, told him what he should say when the stewards called him in, what he should say to the media, etc. All these conversations had nothing to do with the original incident and what this jock did.

Don't lose sight of the real issue at hand. Don't confuse the issue at hand. Don't deflect and twist the facts with justification, vacillation, or anything else.

Victor Molina isn't doing any of that. He stepped up and has done the right thing regarding this incident and the fact that he did something wrong.

Eric

[PaceAdvantage]

Comparing something (this incident) bad to something else worse to make this sound better is foolish. If it's done in an effort to explain or justify this, then I feel sorry for those that attempt that. If it's done in order to trivialize this, again, I feel sorry for those people and their efforts. It is nothing more than a waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

Having both read and participated in this thread, I just can't agree with what is quoted above. I don't think anyone was trying to make what Victor did "sound better." Honestly, how many times can you say "What this guy did was dead wrong" without becoming monotonous?

Thus, the discussion was expanded in order to point out to the folks here and elsewhere who were stunned by this display of cruelty that if you thought this was bad, you ain't seen or heard the worst of it....

Doing such in no way trivializes what Molina did.

[cj's dad]

[QUOTE=After all you have to be somewhat goofy to get in a confined steel space with a 1500 lbs animal.:)

What are they racing ?? Clydesdales ??:confused:

[NY BRED]

Usually, you can find anything that happened in the world that people are talking about on YouTube. I can't find Molina kicking the horse, however. Is there anyplace online where the video of the incident can be viewed?


Blinkers on , which is on TVG. showed the replay of the incident yesterday, and had Victor on an Interview with Matt and Dan Illman, who admitted
his guilt, and apologized to the fans.


Were this my horse, I would have decked Mr Molina.. He chooses to ride
and make his money riding horses, which by the nature of the game is dangerous to both rider and horse.

There is simply no justification for his action, and if allowed to go unchecked
(or by mild penalty) could create similar incidents throughout the world.

And, by the way, if I did get into a fight with this midget, he'd sue me,
which the horse can't do, but which the track, or owner can.

Victor Carrero, in answer to one the the other posts, had the gaul to kick a horse who went down in NY , and, who I believe was euthanised thereafter.


He is still paying the price by riding at at minor tracks(although he has appeared several times in NY), which is fitting justice.

[Marlin]

[QUOTE=After all you have to be somewhat goofy to get in a confined steel space with a 1500 lbs animal.:)

What are they racing ?? Clydesdales ??:confused:LOL.:) Maybe I went overboard by 33% or so. Point is still valid.

[ELA]

Having both read and participated in this thread, I just can't agree with what is quoted above. I don't think anyone was trying to make what Victor did "sound better." Honestly, how many times can you say "What this guy did was dead wrong" without becoming monotonous?

Thus, the discussion was expanded in order to point out to the folks here and elsewhere who were stunned by this display of cruelty that if you thought this was bad, you ain't seen or heard the worst of it....

Doing such in no way trivializes what Molina did.

I was merely telling you the way many -- not all -- of the comments landed with me. In reality, I wasn't even on the fence, it was clear, but that's the beauty of opinion and interpretation. I don't think I am the only one who "saw it" that way, but that's irrelevant. I read it the way I read it, and didn't like it, what it represented and how it spoke to the incident at hand for me.

I understand your point. In a dead medium, interpretation often becomes very one dimensional.

Eric

[RXB]

Hillstrom has a point, and it's good he's getting this kind of reaction, because his point needs to be heard loud and clear.

There is SERIOUS abuse going on behind closed doors at every corner of this industry, from the juicing of yearlings to the injecting of TEFLON into an old claimers busted up joints.

To scream outrage at Molina while turning a blind eye to the everyday abuse that is JUST AS BAD if not WORSE is the point HH is making, and it needs to be addressed.

Well said, PA.

[Greyfox]

I don't think I am the only one who "saw it" that way, but that's irrelevant. I read it the way I read it, and didn't like it, what it represented and how it spoke to the incident at hand for me.

Eric

Well said Eric.:jump:

[DanG]

I understand your point. In a dead medium, interpretation often becomes very one dimensional.

Eric
I think this is a critical point Eric.

Very easy to take the printed word the wrong way. Even a minor inflection in ones voice can completely change someone’s reaction.

Many people cut to the chase much more abruptly than they would during normal conversation just for time constraints etc…Maybe there like me and don’t type 60 words per minute. If you’re on the phone and misspeak…correct your self…If you misspeak in a post, you better correct it before the next one follows or it’s a billboard on the internet superhighway.

Having said that…I forgot what we were talking about!!! :D

Too little sleep… / Thanks Hollywood!!! :bang:

I'd better get back to Belmont before I say something really dumb. :)

[reckless]

Let's understand a few things, please

Hi everyone:

I deliberately waited awhile before posting on the Victor Molina incident, and just completed reading the entire thread.

Please understand that I believe it's a very sad situation; it's unfortunate and at the very least, it simply looked too horrible in the least to justify.

But, let's try to see the entire picture before we lump Molina in with Victor Carrero, who struck a fallen horse in the head after said horse broke down for God's sake!

Kicking a horse in the stomach inflicts as much pain as a 7-year-old clenching his fist and hitting his dad in the arm. Farriers hit horses much harder in the stomach while trying to shoe an anxious horses than Molina did the other day.

The fatty underbelly of a horse causes little if any pain when struck; it gets a horse's attention, for sure, but little true pain. Also, the jockey's boot is very light and soft, on par to bedroom slippers our moms or grandmothers wear.

Molina does indeed have a near perfect 'history' of classy, professional, good conduct, and his actions were totally out of character. As a top rider at Pha Park said the other day: 'Molina is so good that he doesn't even merit a file on him. I have my very own thick file, but Molina has been a saint his whole career.'

Again, I must repeat: His actions were terrible, and I am not implying that what he did wasn't wrong.

I saw the entire situation unfold in front of me. Yes, the 2-year-old was very fractious; he reared in the gate and struck Molina in the chest. Molina was even pinned against the gate for a few seconds, a very dangerous situation to be in. He must have gotten slightly hurt when struck in the chest and this may have caused the rider to get angry.

Now, allow me please to play a rhetorical game or two of let's assume...

Let's assume the horse never got unglued and was never scratched; by extension this also means that Molina would not have kicked the horse and this thread wouldn't be alive now.

The race starts... the first thing the rider would do would be to crack the whip to the horse's arse a few times.... the horse takes off.... into the turn the rider is 'scrubbing' very hard on the horse's head, neck and mane... now, into the stretch... the crowd comes alive.... the horse and rider is challenged... Molina's left hand is raised...boom...boom...boom....boom... more scrubbing and pushing.

Molina switches the stick ....boom...boom...boom....boom, more infliction of pain, er, I mean, more usual race-riding... now they hit the wire and the race is over, and win or lose NO ONE calls for Molina to be suspended; no ejection from the racetrack; no public mea culpas; no fine, and, no nitwit blonde on TVG droning on for six hours on what a creep Molina is.

But, wait, let's play yet another round of let's assume...

Let's assume the race begins as planned, and at the start Molina does absolutely nothing... no cracking the arse at the beginning of the race... no scrubbing down the backstretch.... no getting the whip ready to do damage... no boom... boom... boom... no nothing... and now, into the homestretch the horse is near the lead and another horse looms up besides Molina and the two horses and riders hook up for a stirring stretch duel.

The other jockey is using the whip as a baseball bat, sticking the horse after each jump, left-right-left again... right again... boom, bang, boom, boom, bang, ouch. Molina just sits there and hand rides the horse down the entire home stretch...no banging, no whipping, no booming, no scrubbing, no ouch, no nothing.

The horses hit the wire together and Molina is beaten a lousy nose. Ugh!

Boys and girls of the jury, what do you think happens to Victor Molina now?

Well, first, the crowd goes wild since the Molina horse was 9-5, 2-1 when the scratch occured... fans scream, they send horrible emails, write testy messages on the PA board of what a terrible effort by that stupid jockey that fell asleep!

Even more people email and call Philly Park... all within minutes of the race's finish, just like they did just minutes after Molina kicked the horse... but friends, this still isn't over.

Molina gets off the horse and weighs in.. the 20 live patrons at Pha Park come
to the apron and boo Victor Molina terribly... the groom says something incoherent... the trainer says: 'What the %$##$# hell were you thinking about Victor; you didn't hit the horse once.'

Before the rider gets to the jock's room, the phone is ringing... it's the stewards who also didn't like it that Molina did not hit the horse once.

They probably take him off the rest of his mounts and eject him from the track, of all things. A hearing is called and when completed, Molina, who never has had his reputation questioned in 27 years, is suspended and fined for the 'way' he rode the 2-year-old. He didn't 'persevere' enough, he is told.

(Persevering is a racetrack euphemism for holding a horse, or as my good friends from Boston call it, 'glomming' a horse. There's a top rider at Philly Park right this second who is on record of saying the trainer he rode for told him to 'not try to win today', and that jock is still riding and that trainer is still training.)

They seem to be trying to destroy the career of Victor Molina!! Please, all of us, let's get real. This is an unfortunate and sad situation but calling it an over reach is putting it mildly.

Thanks and I am sorry for the length of this message.

[ELA]

reckless -- I hear you, and I understand your point(s). Be that as it may, as I've said previously -- to me (and I speak only for me) the amount of pain inflicted or anything related -- as you yourself pointed out -- is irrelevant.

However, as to your other points -- no, Molina's career should not be ruined, not at all. I race horses at Philly, although I don't know Molina nor has he ever ridden for me. People I know, who I respect, speak very highly of him. Apparently, his record is very clean, if not unblemished. From the moment the incident took place, until today, I like what I see from this guy. He's stepped up and stuck his head right in the lion's mouth so to speak. It is outlandish to even think of ruling this guy off for life or permanently blemishing his career.

The fiction and rhetorical aspect, while interesting, to me means little, LOL. It's one of those fallacious discussions that really doesn't change the facts, which I think it important. Some might attempt to put facts in a certain framework or perspective, others might not.

Regardless, I don't know what is appropriate here as far as punishment. I do know that the guy stepped up and that to me -- post incident -- is above all.

Eric

[Hajck Hillstrom]

It should be an industry imperative to protect from abuse the objects of all its hughly rewarding breeding/selling/racing/wagering activities ... certainly from a financial perspective, but first and foremost from a humanitarian perspective.Truer words were never spoken.

I'm glad that some of you understood the point I was trying to make, and I'm sorry that I didn't make myself more clear so that some will view me insensitive. Greyfox and Kelso in particular, as I apparently communicated to you both the exact opposite of what was intended.

Trust me, I found Molina's actions repulsive. I find the actions of many in this great sport repulsive, yet I remain a fan of the game. The fabric of this sport is interwoven with shamefull incidents, and in a perfect world, Molina would have returned to jocks room and received a kick to his own stomach from one of the connections.

This thread seemed an applicable forum to express my perspective, and I apologize if any of you find this perspective objectionable. The accepted abuse of the equine that is tolerated daily at tracks is appalling. It wasn't my intent to belittle Molina's actions as much as it was to heighten the awareness of the atrocities that so many racing fans just take for granted.

I appreciate Pace Advantage and DanG's support and understanding of message. I don't think myself desensitized, but until racing bans the use of the whip, I am forced to accept abuse as the nature of the racing beast. I am curious as to Greyfox, Kelso, & befuddlem's persespectives on the use of the whip. As you watch John Velazquez bring the hammer down time after time down the stretch with excessive force, do you even think about the animal being abused?

ELA, your perspective is a valid one. Sometimes though, in an effort to focus, we lose sight of the bigger picture. I was merely trying to expand the forum and perspective.

Perhaps the thread would have been better served by me presenting my perspectives in another, but if even one of you grasp the concept, then a greater good was served.

There you are, Greyfox. I have expanded on the theory. I am curious as to your perspective.

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck Hillstrom

[Hammerhead]

From what I just seen on the news Molina fined and suspended.

[Greyfox]

There you are, Greyfox. I have expanded on the theory. I am curious as to your perspective.

Carry on, Carry on,

Hajck Hillstrom


Thankyou that you have said Molina's action was repulsive. I think that we all agree on that.

With respect to use in the whip, I think that it should only be used for "steering" purposes. A jockey might need one to protect his life in certain situations. Otherwise, I personally don't believe that any horse will run faster is you whip it. Indeed, I've seen some stop. Furthermore whipping a horse in the lead simply teaches the animal not to go to the lead again.

As to appropriate punishment for Molina, his previous record has to be taken into consideration. Certainly a spontaneous lack of anger management does not warrant the loss of his career. But an example needs to be set to stop other riders from the same action.

No one on the board has suggested what the appropriate punishment should be. However, if a rider does not have a history of previous loose cannon behavior, I would think that a reasonable punishment would be maybe
1. 30 day suspension first offense
2. 90 day suspension second offense
3. 1 year suspension third offense
That sort of thing.

I'd be interested in finding out what others view as appropriate punisment.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Reckless- How about a whip to the stomach?
Punishment- fits. I'm sure jockeys and connections may think it is too harsh, too bad. Too bad.

[GaryG]

Got 30 days....I would like to have seen the filly kick him in the nuts.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/86121.html

[befuddlem]

Let's understand a few things, please



Kicking a horse in the stomach inflicts as much pain as a 7-year-old clenching his fist and hitting his dad in the arm. Farriers hit horses much harder in the stomach while trying to shoe an anxious horses than Molina did the other day.

The fatty underbelly of a horse causes little if any pain when struck; it gets a horse's attention, for sure, but little true pain. Also, the jockey's boot is very light and soft, on par to bedroom slippers our moms or grandmothers wear.




I would suspect that these statements are completely false.
:ThmbDown:

[nell]

I called Philadelphia Track and spoke to someone at the racing office who was appalled that I thought the stewards were right in imposing a suspension and fine for Molina. He went on to say that the jockey was absolutely justified in kicking the horse, then slammed down the receiver. I then called the Track's administration office and the representative was quite upset with this employee's reaction. What is happening with this sport?

[Kelso]

I'm sorry that I didn't make myself more clear so that some will view me insensitive
<snip>
I found Molina's actions repulsive.

It certainly did appear, at least to me, that you were not much dismayed by Molina's action and that you were willing to dismiss it in view of worse abuses. Very good to now know otherwise.




I am curious as to Greyfox, Kelso, & befuddlem's persespectives on the use of the whip.

I would be very pleased if whips were banned from racing. I do not, however, consider their use ... even at John Velazquez' ferocity ... to be anywhere near as inhumane and inexcusable as kicking a horse in the stomach.