NYRA to get 20 year extension?

[Ron]

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=598441&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=6/16/2007

[john del riccio]

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=598441&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=6/16/2007

This is the definition of why I call them Poli-"Tics", useless.

John

[andicap]

In a lot of ways the deal makes sense but I can see why there would be objections. At first glance I lean toward favoring it, but want more facts.

First, the state is right to worry about NYRA's land claims on the tracks. And a prolonged, expensive legal battle would neither be good for the state, NY racing or the fans, partly because it would probably hold up installing the slots at the NY tracks.

Second, while the selection of Excelsior does raise eyebrows, you have remember that many people attacked Spitzer for supposedly throwing out the work done so far by the committee that ORIGINALLY chose Excelsior as NYRA's successor. This seems like an excellent compromise -- NYRA gives up the right to the tracks and must restructure its board of directors -- in return for another 20 years in charge. Excelsior, which was the original choice to succeed NYRA, gets the slots and clout.
Im sure Empire will be headed to court and everyone will scream "Fix!!" and with good reason since Excelsior is represented by top Spitzer backers. I don't mind the deal but can certainly understand those who will object to the apparant political shenanigans. I think Spitzer needs to spell out exactly WHY Excelsior is better suited to run the slots than Empire.

Third, is it right to close Aqueduct? I'm not sure on this one. I've always been loathe to run Belmont 10 months out of the year and turn it into another Aqueduct. The spring and fall meets have always been special to me -- nice days in the backyard, etc. And it's never good to have a track close, especially for the people in Queens.

But fewer people are going to tracks nowadays. The money isn't in the on-track wagering and attendance anymore. It's online and at the simulcasts and OTBs. So in a larger sense it really doesn't matter where they run the races and it is more economically efficient to run just one downstate track instead of two. You hate to say it but racing IS becoming more of a studio sport. And Belmont is a helluva lot nicer than Aqueduct and much easier to get to.

Fourth, in the wake of all this I wonder if they are setting up to extend the Saratoga meet another week or two in July. DelMar runs for two months or more. Again, I'm not so sure this would be a good idea because the short meet adds to its mystique and appeal. It makes it special.

[Bruddah]

Sounds as if "Tony" and the boys cut a deal in Albany. The rich get richer and the incompetent remain in charge of the asylum.

Really, other than being disappointed for horse racing, it makes no difference to me. I haven't bet a New York track in two years. It's a shame too, because I loved Saratoga and still think it's the finest racing in the country.

My condolensces to all of you in New York. :bang:

[NoCal Boy]

I think the proposed deal works fine if you look at the big picture. Let's not kid ourselves, the land claims are playing a huge part of this deal. A restructured NYRA keeps continuity on the racing side, clears up the land claims for future generations of the franchise, and allows casino folks to operate the vlt operations. Empire tried to build a coalition, but when does that ever work in a for profit enterprise. Too many mouths to feed. It will be interesting to see if TVG retains the exclusive ADW signal or if this NYRA situation is the engine that eventually brings racing ADW together. NYRA is going to want to get closer to the 7% that the premium signals on the TrackNet obtain, and TVG will have trouble matching that deal. After all, that only leaves TVG getting 1.5% from Youbet for the signal since the rate Youbet pays is capped at 8.5%.


Empire is crying foul, but has little leg to stand on. NYRA retaining the franchise is legitimate, and it appears Empire did not simply want the vlt side.

On another note, anyone else get the impression Churchill is distancing away from Magna with its purchase of ATab? What is the future of Magna? XpressBet now has to battle a much larger Churchill family of ADW's, and then eventually Youbet and perhaps TVG.

[ELA]

A new, reformed, reconstituted, and transparent NYRA would in fact be ideal. The average fan has no idea of the complexities of this situation. If you could have a new version of NYRA run racing, clear the table regarding the land claims, eliminate debt, and get the VLT program up and running in the right form and fashion -- with a deal that is beneficial to all parties -- you will have taken a very good first, second, etc. step.

You need a new NYRA in there that will not have the mindset, management style, attitude, etc. of the past -- and will be free of all the bad attributes we as horsemen have seen in the past. Transparency, partnership, collaberation, etc. -- it's worked on individual projects and programs. We need it globally.

Eric

[Ivan]

ADW is very convenient BUT already has severely damaged the Sport

The idea was great but as soon as these companies started their ruthless tactics ( tvg vs Xpressbet etc) it's really pissing bettors off that these tracks get "Exclusive" agreements with certain tracks.

How can an ADW basically own the signal? I know certain tracks give certain adw's exclusive rights obviously with the hope of increasing handle but what ends up happening is NOBODY goes to the track anymore and then people get upset because the coverage is horrible (example TVG missing a Live Race to talk about Simon's Pick 4) so they don't bet anymore

They do nothing to assist in helping the sport grow, they hide behind a vale of "Promoting Racing" through widespread broadcasting yet all they do is force Pick 4 tickets down your throat because these types of bets generate more profit FOR THEM

They are NOT trying to "Help" you with the plays (They don't even bet the selections they post FYI :D )

Ok....Enough ranting....But this is REALLY sickening :ThmbDown:

:cool:

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey Ivan, you're new and all, so take this as a friendly reminder to TRY and stay on topic. This thread is about NYRA and the franchise extension, not ADW's and their overall impact on racing...


Thanks.

[PaceAdvantage]

My condolensces to all of you in New York. :bang:

No condolences necessary. In fact, this is some fairly good news, minus the destruction of Aqueduct. I am really, REALLY going to hate to see that track go, if it goes....

[Kelso]

..... for 20 years, gets to operate and/or sell, properties it claims it presently owns outright ..... PRIOR to which it relinquishes all claims to said properties?

If NYRA truly believes (as, apparently, does the State of New York) in the validity of its title claims to these ENORMOUSLY VALUABLE properties ..... this is a worse deal than the injuns made for Manhattan Island!

And if NYRA's claims are not valid ..... how can the State of New York legally allow any ENORMOUSLY VALUABLE property to which ITS RESIDENTS have title to be sold for the benefit of a party that does not own them? (The Governor's cronies growing even fatter with an ENORMOUSLY VALUABLE slot machine franchise notwithstanding, of course.) That sounds downright illegal to me. Hey Scooter, scoot on over ... here come da Gov!!

[Bruddah]

Let's see...The NYRA has debts of $400 million, which are mostly loans received from the state, in order to keep a sinking ship afloat. Oh yeah! Let's let them run the ship for another 20 years. They need only to lose $20 million a year, for the next 20 years, and be ahead of inflation. Such a deal???

I'm not sure, but in order to have bought all of the NY racetracks, the tracks would need to have been offerred for sale..NO? When did the sale, offer and tranaction take place? And, can the properties be sold to a non profit organization, which has no assets or positive cash flows above expenses, since it is NON PROFIT?

[Suffolk OTB]

This is the worst possible news...pretty much status quo.

Racing NY will continue to flounder and die unless the OTBs are folded into whoever is running the racetracks. The current business model is ridiculous: NYRA compete with OTBs just outside its gates. Until that changes, it does not matter who runs NY racing.

[NoCal Boy]

Why don't the NY OTB's form a unified platform for ADW to compete with NYRA? Use Youbet or someone else as the backbone.


The NYRA deal makes sense because it preserves the franchise for future generations as land claims are settled once and for all. The revenue side will jump because they will negotiate for higher host fees than what is currently paid to TVG.

One needs to see outside of the box here. Although I do disagree with The Big A closing.

[NoCal Boy]

With all due respect, racing is about ADW more and more each year. It will take off even more once this nonsense about exclusive signals get resolved and all the ADW's have all the content.

[aaron]

As usual,the latest proposal makes no sense for the following reasons.
1-Slots have not been ok'd for Belmont.
2-OTB will still be a separate entity.As long as the set up between NYRA and OTB is separate racing will suffer.
3-It sure looks like be patronage for Spitzer cronies
4-As for racing,they will probably tear down one of the Belmont turf courses and set up a winterized track. In the long run,I don't see this as a benefit.
5-As bad as the Board of Trustee's is now,I don't see how government appointees will improve anything.

[Tom]

As a taxpayer first, horseplayer second, I have very serious concerns about forgiving ANY debts.

I don't really give a rat's ass who gets NYRA, what tracks they tear down, or where they race, as long as they do it on THIER OWN MONEY, NOT MINE.

If they can't pay what they owe, they should go now.

In this day and age of simulcasting, do we really need state sponsored racing? If no one can afford to run a track in NY and make moone,y then NY shoul dnot have tracks. Simple no brainer.

[Bruddah]

It's time the politicians stop busting the balls of the taxpayer. From sports to immigration and everything inbetween, our "elected" officials think the taxpayers shoulders can carry the burden. It's become an epidemic. Enough already! :mad:

[boomman]

With all due respect, racing is about ADW more and more each year. It will take off even more once this nonsense about exclusive signals get resolved and all the ADW's have all the content.

No Cal: Absolutely correct! The ADWs got a bad name with track executives when they were operating offshore and doing nothing to help with North American live racing. That certainly is not the case with US based companies like Premier Turf Club, (who are 100% parimutuel and contribute to purses and horsemen's charities) and I agree with you that this complete nonsense of signal exclusivity will come to a halt soon, especially if horse players and horsemen (who are losing a ton of revenue by ADW's being excluded) get behind the ADW's and call for Churchill (who just purchased America Tab) to do the right thing and send the signals out to the ADW's at a fair price.........

Boomer

[rrbauer]

Third, is it right to close Aqueduct? I'm not sure on this one. I've always been loathe to run Belmont 10 months out of the year and turn it into another Aqueduct. The spring and fall meets have always been special to me -- nice days in the backyard, etc. And it's never good to have a track close, especially for the people in Queens.

But fewer people are going to tracks nowadays. The money isn't in the on-track wagering and attendance anymore. It's online and at the simulcasts and OTBs. So in a larger sense it really doesn't matter where they run the races and it is more economically efficient to run just one downstate track instead of two. You hate to say it but racing IS becoming more of a studio sport. And Belmont is a helluva lot nicer than Aqueduct and much easier to get to.



Comment:
After being at Belmont a week ago Saturday and dealing with the parking mess and long lines at concession stands and finding out afterwards that the live attendance was under 50,000 it's no wonder to me that even fewer people are attending the races. You won't find me at Belmont again and if that's the best NY has to offer, that's NY's problem. Running races in the dead of winter in NY also makes little sense to me. It's kind of liking selling a product that's losing money and expecting to make it up with volume.


Fourth, in the wake of all this I wonder if they are setting up to extend the Saratoga meet another week or two in July. DelMar runs for two months or more. Again, I'm not so sure this would be a good idea because the short meet adds to its mystique and appeal. It makes it special.

Comment:
Del Mar runs for 7 weeks.

[NoCal Boy]

I admire what Premier Turf Club is trying to do, but I think you also have to be realistic. The major ADW players are going to dominate, and even more so once exclusivity goes away. The real question is what form does ADW look like in a few years. Magna is in rough shape from a financial perspective. I think it speaks volumes that Churchill elected to spend $80MM on ATab, et al rather than invest into XpressBet. Next is TVG. I have heard some speculation that the funding for TVG's TV distribution should come from a percentage of all handle rather than these sublicensing fees from outfits like Youbet. Interesting that earlier this month Youbet and TVG agreed to modify their license agreement eliminating the requirement that 3/4 of 1% of all Youbet handle in TVG states on TVG exclusive tracks go to the NTRA. I still believe TVG and Youbet together are a good counter to the Magna-Churchill alliance as long as each side has all content. But people are crazy into believing that the close to $1Billion in handle that TVG and Youbet run through their systems (not including Youbet's IRG subsidiary) is going to left out in the cold from TrackNet much longer.

As for NY, I still believe NYOTB system should use a unfied platform like Youbet, etc. This would pressure TrackNet and TVG to come to their senses. I really blame TVG more than TrackNet since TrackNet appears willing to open their signals to all, but TVG is a tough nut to crack. Their model at present crumbles without the current economic system in place with sublicensing fees.

[Indulto]

... As for NY, I still believe NYOTB system should use a unfied platform like Youbet, etc. This would pressure TrackNet and TVG to come to their senses. I really blame TVG more than TrackNet since TrackNet appears willing to open their signals to all, but TVG is a tough nut to crack. Their model at present crumbles without the current economic system in place with sublicensing fees.NCB,
Would you please explain why you think using Youbet is the answer to OTB's problems?

Why couldn't the OTB districts just get a cut from their residents' wagers through NYRA1 and all wagers through their simulcast centers? What would happen if they tried to get a cut of their residents' wagers through other ADWs?

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't really give a rat's ass who gets NYRA, what tracks they tear down, or where they race, as long as they do it on THIER OWN MONEY, NOT MINE.

If they can't pay what they owe, they should go now.

The sale of Aqueduct was proposed to pay for the debt that is presently owed.

[PaceAdvantage]

After being at Belmont a week ago Saturday and dealing with the parking mess and long lines at concession stands and finding out afterwards that the live attendance was under 50,000 it's no wonder to me that even fewer people are attending the races.

Fewer people are attending races at MOST tracks around the country...that is a fact. Last time I checked, NYRA does not run MOST tracks around the country.

As for Belmont, I've been to every Belmont Stakes since Risen Star, and I plan on attending every single one in the future as long as I'm still sucking on air. I don't care who owns the tracks, what the parking is, how much it costs to get in, how many people show up or how long it takes to buy a hot dog.

But that's just me....I'm a fan...

[PaceAdvantage]

It's time the politicians stop busting the balls of the taxpayer. From sports to immigration and everything inbetween, our "elected" officials think the taxpayers shoulders can carry the burden. It's become an epidemic. Enough already! :mad:

Everything I've read says the sale of Aqueduct, NOT the taxpayers, will cover any debts outstanding. Have you read differently?

[PaceAdvantage]

Let's see...The NYRA has debts of $400 million, which are mostly loans received from the state, in order to keep a sinking ship afloat.

How did the NYRA come to be in such debt? Did people stop betting on their product? Let's have a discussion of facts. Does anyone have any facts?

Claims of mismanagement can only carry you so far on this one. Indulto seems pretty well read on the NYRA saga. Perhaps Indulto can start this fact finding mission rolling and type out for us a few of the reasons why NYRA has such a large debt that only the sale of Aqueduct can resolve.

[Bruddah]

The 1st and 2nd posts in this thread were made by Ron and john del riccio. Each referenced an article by James M. Odato at TimesUnion.com. This is an excerpt from that article.

According to the racing source, the state would attempt to sell Aqueduct, in Queens. Proceeds would pay off NYRA's roughly $400 million debt, much of it loans from the state.

Now let's see. Where did the state of NY originally get the money from? Was it the taxpayers? Where's the taxpayers vigorish on this loan? PA, you tell me how the NRYA lost $400 million and remains a bastion of Business Administration.

I know you are smarter than an ostrich, so get your head out of the sand and see the NYRA for what it is. Blind coloquial allegiance is not becoming to anyone. :ThmbDown:

[PaceAdvantage]

Now let's see. Where did the state of NY originally get the money from? Was it the taxpayers? Where's the taxpayers vigorish on this loan? PA, you tell me how the NRYA lost $400 million and remains a bastion of Business Administration.

Are you saying these are interest free loans?

I never said the NYRA is a bastion of Business Administration. What I'm saying is they're a better option than what has been presented to date, and apparently, the Governor is beginning to see it this way as well...

You aren't playing fair. I asked YOU to tell ME how NYRA came to be in debt. If you don't have the facts, just say so, and I'll wait for someone who does.

[Bruddah]

You obviously don't know whereof you speak. I gave you reference to where I speak. On this thread and web site, by your members. You challenged me and I showed you. You have done nothing to prove your point, other than bluster. Why don't you show some proof of your superior knowledge of this subject. You have shown nothing...nothing but lip service to your own thoughts. You are making a spectacle of yourself. Climb down off your high horse and show facts pertaining to the NYRA debt.

[Ivan]

You obviously don't know whereof you speak. I gave you reference to where I speak. On this thread and web site, by your members. You challenged me and I showed you. You have done nothing to prove your point, other than bluster. Why don't you show some proof of your superior knowledge of this subject. You have shown nothing...nothing but lip service to your own thoughts. You are making a spectacle of yourself. Climb down off your high horse and show facts pertaining to the NYRA debt.

:D :lol: :jump:

[Ivan]

Hey Ivan, you're new and all, so take this as a friendly reminder to TRY and stay on topic. This thread is about NYRA and the franchise extension, not ADW's and their overall impact on racing...


Thanks.

PaceAdvantage you DO need to get off your High Horse

I think ADW's have a big impact on Racing in NY thus it impacts the NYRA and any extension.


DUHHHHHHH!

Your reply to my posted opinion on this thread does not make any sense since OBVIOUSLY a few others also brought up ADW and you didn't say shit to them.

Why don't the NY OTB's form a unified platform for ADW to compete with NYRA? Use Youbet or someone else as the backbone.


The NYRA deal makes sense because it preserves the franchise for future generations as land claims are settled once and for all. The revenue side will jump because they will negotiate for higher host fees than what is currently paid to TVG.

One needs to see outside of the box here. Although I do disagree with The Big A closing.

With all due respect, racing is about ADW more and more each year. It will take off even more once this nonsense about exclusive signals get resolved and all the ADW's have all the content.


QUOTE=boomman]No Cal: Absolutely correct! The ADWs got a bad name with track executives when they were operating offshore and doing nothing to help with North American live racing. That certainly is not the case with US based companies like Premier Turf Club, (who are 100% parimutuel and contribute to purses and horsemen's charities) and I agree with you that this complete nonsense of signal exclusivity will come to a halt soon, especially if horse players and horsemen (who are losing a ton of revenue by ADW's being excluded) get behind the ADW's and call for Churchill (who just purchased America Tab) to do the right thing and send the signals out to the ADW's at a fair price.........

Boomer[/QUOTE]


NCB,
Would you please explain why you think using Youbet is the answer to OTB's problems?

Why couldn't the OTB districts just get a cut from their residents' wagers through NYRA1 and all wagers through their simulcast centers? What would happen if they tried to get a cut of their residents' wagers through other ADWs?

So why didn't you inform THESE posters that they have to "Stay on Topic"???



and then give them your Bill Lumberg "Thanks"



Point is YOUR AN "ADMINISTRATOR" for this board your NOT as smart as you think you are.

Get off your high horse already because it's making you look really LAME





Thanks...

[Indulto]

... Perhaps Indulto can start this fact finding mission rolling and type out for us a few of the reasons why NYRA has such a large debt that only the sale of Aqueduct can resolve.First place to look would be the revised NYRA proposal submitted to the Rifkin panel prior to the hearings. Unfortunately, I don't have the link at my fingertips.

I think debating this particular issue is a waste of time. IMO no track operator could have shown a profit with NYRA's constraints re: signal pricing, OTB competition, and Pataki Administration blockage of VLTs at AQU, but it's clear that previous NYRA management teams were collectively incapable of timely recognition -- and effective addressing -- of the downward spiral initiated by new competition for the gambling dollar.

It's time to look forward, rather than backward. The question of how to merge the OTB and track operations has always been one of the most critical issues, but has yet to receive adequate attention in Albany or anywhere else.

[Tom]

PA - I have heard the words "forgive" and "debt" several times. If that is not the case, then great.

[alysheba88]

As a taxpayer first, horseplayer second, I have very serious concerns about forgiving ANY debts.

I don't really give a rat's ass who gets NYRA, what tracks they tear down, or where they race, as long as they do it on THIER OWN MONEY, NOT MINE.

If they can't pay what they owe, they should go now.

In this day and age of simulcasting, do we really need state sponsored racing? If no one can afford to run a track in NY and make moone,y then NY shoul dnot have tracks. Simple no brainer.


Do you have any idea how much higher your taxes would be WITHOUT RACING?

Do you have any idea how much tax revenue racing in NY creates?

[Bruddah]

Now, though, a Spitzer administration official said the fear is that a prolonged court fight with NYRA, which is operating under the protection of U.S. Bankruptcy Court, could hold up the franchise.

NYRA's franchise, which it has held since 1955, is supposed to expire at year's end. Under a 1983 extension deal, NYRA agreed to hand over the tracks to the state if it should lose the franchise. NYRA has argued that 24-year-old deal came about through intimidation.

I have a niece, a Law professor, at the Univ. of Texas. She can't believe that any State, with competent attornies, couldn't get the NYRA's claim of track ownership thrown out of court. (quickly) Because the NYRA has waited 24 years to claim foul (intimidation) in it's contract negotiations of 1983. Once done, the contract would be binding and the NYRA would lose the franchise at years end. Therefore, the tracks would automatically revert back to the state, according to the provisions of that contract. She also indicated, even with a busy court schedule, this could be done in approximately 90 days. Certainly, well before the end of the year.

Looks like a $400 million gift and it lets the incompetent NYRA still run the asylum. Can we say Sweetheart Deal? :kiss: :ThmbDown:

[Tom]

Do you have any idea how much higher your taxes would be WITHOUT RACING?

Do you have any idea how much tax revenue racing in NY creates?

No. Tell me how much filters 360 miles west?

[Tom]

There was a recent SC case where a woman claimed discriminatory wage payments, after waiting many years and she lost.
I suspect the precedent will impact this claim if true.

[Gibbon]

Ivan man,

The more you post, the more my suspicions about you {as I stated in off topics} appears on target. You claim - no - you scream “facts” as you interpret them.

You lack any contextual framework for your facts. Also, your lack of any historical understandings impugns your beloved “facts.”

Although, considering you’re a realtor I shouldn’t be dismayed. You’re probably a contributing factor to the current sub prime real property meltdown. Took some time off hustling the underachievers to post here??

…Point is YOUR AN "ADMINISTRATOR" for this board your NOT as smart as you think you are…. Certainly from your smug and arrogant posts, you have more than demonstrated your superior intellect. Or, maybe it’s the California smog.






______________________________
The Internet has vastly expanded the number of players who claim to be winners....On the typical handicapping message board, almost nobody admits they're consistent losers. ~ Barry Meadow

[alysheba88]

No. Tell me how much filters 360 miles west?

Are you serious? Tax revenue from the city area basically subsidizes the rest of the state

Check out sometime how much of the takeout goes to the state. Forget all the other taxes generated from having racing just look at takeout.

[alysheba88]

Now, though, a Spitzer administration official said the fear is that a prolonged court fight with NYRA, which is operating under the protection of U.S. Bankruptcy Court, could hold up the franchise.

NYRA's franchise, which it has held since 1955, is supposed to expire at year's end. Under a 1983 extension deal, NYRA agreed to hand over the tracks to the state if it should lose the franchise. NYRA has argued that 24-year-old deal came about through intimidation.

I have a niece, a Law professor, at the Univ. of Texas. She can't believe that any State, with competent attornies, couldn't get the NYRA's claim of track ownership thrown out of court. (quickly) Because the NYRA has waited 24 years to claim foul (intimidation) in it's contract negotiations of 1983. Once done, the contract would be binding and the NYRA would lose the franchise at years end. Therefore, the tracks would automatically revert back to the state, according to the provisions of that contract. She also indicated, even with a busy court schedule, this could be done in approximately 90 days. Certainly, well before the end of the year.

Looks like a $400 million gift and it lets the incompetent NYRA still run the asylum. Can we say Sweetheart Deal? :kiss: :ThmbDown:


You dont think there are intelligent lawyers who live in NY?

[PaceAdvantage]

You obviously don't know whereof you speak. I gave you reference to where I speak. On this thread and web site, by your members. You challenged me and I showed you. You have done nothing to prove your point, other than bluster. Why don't you show some proof of your superior knowledge of this subject.

I have never claimed any superior knowledge on this subject, other than my opinion of who I think should run NY racing. I've expressed my opinion in multiple threads.

What I've asked, is exactly how did NYRA come to be in such debt. You point at this debt as the reason why NYRA does not deserve to retain the franchise. I think it's a fair question to ask of you then, if you know exactly how they came to be in such debt.

If we can examine thoroughly and honestly the reasons why NYRA is in financial trouble, and then STILL can justify them losing the franchise (even after the gov't investigations, examinations, and overhauls, which NONE of the other potential franchisees, including Magna, have undergone), then you will have swayed me to your line of thinking.

[trigger]

Comment:
After being at Belmont a week ago Saturday and dealing with the parking mess and long lines at concession stands and finding out afterwards that the live attendance was under 50,000 it's no wonder to me that even fewer people are attending the races. You won't find me at Belmont again and if that's the best NY has to offer, that's NY's problem.
Comment:
Del Mar runs for 7 weeks.

Sounds like just like Saratoga most days but they(me too) keep coming

[trigger]

I
If we can examine thoroughly and honestly the reasons why NYRA is in financial trouble, and then STILL can justify them losing the franchise (even after the gov't investigations, examinations, and overhauls, which NONE of the other potential franchisees, including Magna, have undergone), then you will have swayed me to your line of thinking.

If Magna or other potential franchisees were running a tax evasion scam for their employees like the NYRA was, I'm sure they would be investigated also and , if guilty, would not be treated as leniently as the feds did with the NYRA.

[Bruddah]

You dont think there are intelligent lawyers who live in NY?

Ask yourself this question. Why wouldn't the state, with all of it's expert legal minds, follow this up? Maybe a breakdown of the $400 million debt owed by the NYRA is just what is needed. Obviously, the state is due a major part of the proceeds, and it was indicated $50 to $60 million of the proceeds would be used to convert one of the tracks to all weather winter racing. (Man the cost of all weather tracks are getting really expensive and going up daily) I think someone needs to file suit for full disclosure. (maybe PA will) :lol:

[Tom]

Are you serious? Tax revenue from the city area basically subsidizes the rest of the state

Check out sometime how much of the takeout goes to the state. Forget all the other taxes generated from having racing just look at takeout.

I think you might be wrong here.
As I asked, how much comes to Ontario county? Just going to the state doesn't mean I get anything. In fact, the Rochester area gets far less than Buffalo or Syracuse. I cannot believe the rest of the state doesn 't subsidize NYC. In fact, many in this area would happy to spin NYC off into it's own state! :eek:;)

[alysheba88]

Ask yourself this question. Why wouldn't the state, with all of it's expert legal minds, follow this up? Maybe a breakdown of the $400 million debt owed by the NYRA is just what is needed. Obviously, the state is due a major part of the proceeds, and it was indicated $50 to $60 million of the proceeds would be used to convert one of the tracks to all weather winter racing. (Man the cost of all weather tracks are getting really expensive and going up daily) I think someone needs to file suit for full disclosure. (maybe PA will) :lol:

My point was with all the legal minds in NY I am sure it has been examined very closely

[alysheba88]

I think you might be wrong here.
As I asked, how much comes to Ontario county? Just going to the state doesn't mean I get anything. In fact, the Rochester area gets far less than Buffalo or Syracuse. I cannot believe the rest of the state doesn 't subsidize NYC. In fact, many in this area would happy to spin NYC off into it's own state! :eek:;)

Its true, I am sorry. To take it a step further the Northeast and West subsidize the South and Midwest.

The amount of revenue that gets generated and taxed in the NYC area is stupendous. The city pays out to the state far far more than it gets back.

I dont know who gets more Rochester or Syracuse but they get alot. Because the economy isnt good there and the tax base is not sufficient to cover services for that area.

[alysheba88]

If Upstate was its own State it would resemble Mississipi or North Dakota.

Not trying to be a jerk here. Have nothing against upstate NY. I like it. Went to school there. Good people. But the economies are just awful.

[PaceAdvantage]

If Magna or other potential franchisees were running a tax evasion scam for their employees like the NYRA was, I'm sure they would be investigated also and , if guilty, would not be treated as leniently as the feds did with the NYRA.

"Running a tax evasion scam." An interesting way to phrase the situation.

Yes, I'm sure every business in the country where a handful of employees are cheating on their taxes while their manager looks the other way would have been treated in exactly the same manner (ie. an indictment of the ENTIRE company).

Hell, even our own Governor Spitzer stated publicy that he thought it was WRONG that Arthur Anderson, the company as a WHOLE (you remember them and what they did to help Enron cover things up) was INDICTED by the federal governement. Strange that he did not feel the same way about the NYRA. One would think that what happened at Enron and Arthur Anderson was a little more serious than some tellers coming up short in their drawers and using that as a deduction on their income taxes.

But hey, what do I know?

[PaceAdvantage]

PaceAdvantage you DO need to get off your High Horse

I think ADW's have a big impact on Racing in NY thus it impacts the NYRA and any extension.


DUHHHHHHH!

Your reply to my posted opinion on this thread does not make any sense since OBVIOUSLY a few others also brought up ADW and you didn't say shit to them.

So why didn't you inform THESE posters that they have to "Stay on Topic"???



and then give them your Bill Lumberg "Thanks"



Point is YOUR AN "ADMINISTRATOR" for this board your NOT as smart as you think you are.

Get off your high horse already because it's making you look really LAME





Thanks...


Point taken. And I apologize for being so uneven in my duties as traffic cop around here.

With that said, your attitude is quite striking and hostile for such an innocent oversight on my part. This point has also been taken.....

[Tom]

I dont know who gets more Rochester or Syracuse but they get alot. Because the economy isnt good there and the tax base is not sufficient to cover services for that area.

I would prefer figures to opinion, but just going to the state is a menaingless statement - how much then goes backto NYC?
And our economies would be just fine if it were not for all the unfunded state mandates that account for essentially 80% of local budgets.

So let me re-write the deal - we would love to have NYC leave, but take Albany with it. ;)

[alysheba88]

I would prefer figures to opinion, but just going to the state is a menaingless statement - how much then goes backto NYC?
And our economies would be just fine if it were not for all the unfunded state mandates that account for essentially 80% of local budgets.

So let me re-write the deal - we would love to have NYC leave, but take Albany with it. ;)

Yeah and watch the thriving Binghamton and Rochester economies.

There are plenty of facts out there. Since you appear to be suggesting what I am saying is opinion and not fact would suggest doing a little research.

[alysheba88]

Dont want to turn this into a political thread but you do realize that NY state only gets back around 80 cents on the dollar it sends to Washington in taxes. NY subsidizes the poorer states

And within NY the city subsidizes upstate.

This article is a little old, but I am sure the #'s have not changed much, except more against NYC

http://www.gothamgazette.com/iotw/upstate/

[Tom]

Yeah and watch the thriving Binghamton and Rochester economies.

There are plenty of facts out there. Since you appear to be suggesting what I am saying is opinion and not fact would suggest doing a little research.

No idea about Birmingham, but Rochester is doing fantastic, as always.
I thought, since it was YOU who claimed I was wrong and had all the facts at your disposal, you would point me to some. My bad. I thought you were speaking from knowledge, but hey, wrong again. ;) cI don' t need to go looking for anything - since it was you who disagreed anmmd suggested facts not in evidence. . I am perfectly happy with my beliefs that tax money should not got to racetracks, or footbal stadium, or anything like that, until someone proves me wrong. So far, that would not be you.
:)

[alysheba88]

No idea about Birmingham, but Rochester is doing fantastic, as always.
I thought, since it was YOU who claimed I was wrong and had all the facts at your disposal, you would point me to some. My bad. I thought you were speaking from knowledge, but hey, wrong again. ;) cI don' t need to go looking for anything - since it was you who disagreed anmmd suggested facts not in evidence. . I am perfectly happy with my beliefs that tax money should not got to racetracks, or footbal stadium, or anything like that, until someone proves me wrong. So far, that would not be you.
:)

Where did I say tax money should go to sport stadiums?

Tracks, unlike sports stadiums, are a proven money maker for the states

By the way how is that ferry doing in Rochester? Saying Rochester is doing fantastic is worse than any politicians spin

Care to refute what was in the article I provided a link too?

[Tom]

What area you arguing?

I said initially I did not my money going to help racetracks, and later expanded that to include lots of other crap that should not be tax supported.

You said that tracks keep my taxes low and I asked for evidence of that. Now you have gone off on a tangent about tax sharing. I commented that we send more money to NYC and you now past an old article that is obviously not the curent picture, but has nothing to do with this thread or my comments about tax payer welfare for race tracks.

Where is that link?

[Kelso]

many in this area would happy to spin NYC off into it's own state! :eek:;)

No problem with dat ... so long as ya don't try ta foist 'em off on Joisey!! The Junkyard State has enough mooches living off taxpayers already.

[Kelso]

NY state only gets back around 80 cents on the dollar it sends to Washington in taxes. NY subsidizes the poorer states

And within NY the city subsidizes upstate.



Are Section 8 housing vouchers, or other direct federal handouts, run through the state budget? I don't think so, but NYS and NYC residents are still the beneficiaries.

[trigger]

"Running a tax evasion scam." An interesting way to phrase the situation.

Yes, I'm sure every business in the country where a handful of employees are cheating on their taxes while their manager looks the other way would have been treated in exactly the same manner (ie. an indictment of the ENTIRE company).

Hell, even our own Governor Spitzer stated publicy that he thought it was WRONG that Arthur Anderson, the company as a WHOLE (you remember them and what they did to help Enron cover things up) was INDICTED by the federal governement. Strange that he did not feel the same way about the NYRA. One would think that what happened at Enron and Arthur Anderson was a little more serious than some tellers coming up short in their drawers and using that as a deduction on their income taxes.
But hey, what do I know?

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/reports/nyra_report.pdf
"3. Committing Income Tax Fraud by “Going Short”
A large number of NYRA tellers exploited NYRA procedures to evade payment of federal and state income taxes. When a teller had a shortage, NYRA allowed the teller to have it deducted from the teller’s paycheck. Other than repayment, there was no meaningful penalty for going short, even by thousands of dollars. Instead, at the end of each year, NYRA issued its
employees short certifications, certifying the dollar amount received from its employees as reimbursements for account shortages.
In 1998 alone, the short certificates totaled $1.8 million.
This procedure became the basis for a tax fraud scheme. In essence, clerks declared as taxable income only the amount of their paychecks after the shorts had been subtracted, functionally taking the amount they were “short” as untaxed income.
20 Based in part on the information supplied by our informants and the documents seized from teller cash boxes at Belmont in September 2000, sixteen tellers have been convicted of federal tax evasion.
Without tellers’ ability to hold money long enough to run up significant shortages, NYRA’s shortage repayment program, and the yearly issuance of short certifications, these crimes could never have occurred.
Although NYRA’s own role was initially unwitting, as discussed below, even after its President was put on direct, personal notice of the likelihood of employee tax fraud, NYRA never reported it to regulators or law enforcement."

Check out the whole report,it shows how bad the NYRA was run for years.

[PaceAdvantage]

Read that again, and again, and again. Read it again one more time.

16 tellers in the MUTUEL DEPARTMENT. That's just one department at NYRA, an organization that employs OVER 2,000 people!

Thus, we have a group of unionized tellers who are breaking the tax code (16 employees out of 2000), and the result is that the NYRA as a WHOLE is indicted (deferred) even though they were labeled (by your own post) as initially unwitting.

Helped to be indicted by the same man (Eliot Spitzer) who later says that the federal indictment of Arthur Anderson (the entire COMPANY, just like the NYRA) was UNWARRANTED because a lot of innocent people were HURT and lost their JOBS! UNWARRANTED even though Arthur Anderson's actions (unlike the NYRA's) ended up costing lots OF INNOCENT PEOPLE their retirement savings + untold money lost by Enron investors.

Talk about hypocrisy.

Any rational person can easily see that the charges brought against the NYRA as a whole were isolated instances. "Bad apples" amongst a group of over 2,000 employees. How many "management types" were arrested in this deferred indictment? Was it one or two? Yeah, seems systemic to me....well worthy of a deferred indictment of the entire company.

Oh wait...at the time, an indictment of the entire company seemed like a wonderful idea seeing as the slots were coming to NY and a bunch of politically connected "friends of New York" (and likely friends of Spitzer, and Bruno, and Silver, etc. etc.) were looking to dip their fingers into that deep, fat money pie.

If we're going to be honest here folks, let's be brutally honest. It was never about "righting those terrible wrongs" done by those evil, terrorist tellers.

It was about making sure the NYRA gets dead and buried before the slots came to town.

Well, as politicians are apt to do, they went and screwed things up for themselves, yet again, and it looks like the NYRA will get to live another day (make that 7,300 days to be exact).

Bravo Eliot. Bravo! I couldn't have asked for a better ending to this worn out soap opera.

[Tom]

16 out of 2,000 - 0.8%

That's 99.2% pure. Right behind Ivory Soap.;)

[alysheba88]

What area you arguing?

I said initially I did not my money going to help racetracks, and later expanded that to include lots of other crap that should not be tax supported.

You said that tracks keep my taxes low and I asked for evidence of that. Now you have gone off on a tangent about tax sharing. I commented that we send more money to NYC and you now past an old article that is obviously not the curent picture, but has nothing to do with this thread or my comments about tax payer welfare for race tracks.

Where is that link?

I never said tracks keep your taxes "low". I said lower.

If you want to seriously suggest that tracks do not contrbute any revenue to the state coffers go right ahead. Laughable

[Tom]

I did not say that. I said a 400 million bailout of a racetrack using my tax dollars was not acceptable. RIF.

[alysheba88]

I did not say that. I said a 400 million bailout of a racetrack using my tax dollars was not acceptable. RIF.

I dont follow. According to the original article the idea was to sell Aqueduct to pay off NYRA's outstanding debt, some of which were loans from the state.

[trigger]

Read that again, and again, and again. Read it again one more time.

16 tellers in the MUTUEL DEPARTMENT. That's just one department at NYRA, an organization that employs OVER 2,000 people!

Thus, we have a group of unionized tellers who are breaking the tax code (16 employees out of 2000), and the result is that the NYRA as a WHOLE is indicted (deferred) even though they were labeled (by your own post) as initially unwitting.

(Partial)

You conveniently overlook the rest of the "initially unwitting" quote:
"Although NYRA’s own role was initially unwitting, as discussed below, even after its President was put on direct, personal notice of the likelihood of employee tax fraud, NYRA never reported it to regulators or law enforcement"
NY politics aside, it is obvious from the report that the NYRA was woefully mismanaging their money/cash and willfully ignoring their own and NY state financial policies while building up a $400 million debt to NY State. Who knows how many millions was squandered or stolen during NYRA's tenure....or how much was swept under the table with the indictment being deferred so that the whole NY racing enterprise didn't collapse (which, I agree, would have been a disaster).
You make it sound like they deserve a medal for "Best Practices in Administration"

[Tom]

I dont follow. According to the original article the idea was to sell Aqueduct to pay off NYRA's outstanding debt, some of which were loans from the state.

And I was not refereing to the article - I said I had heard the words forgive and debt used in several stories, and said I was against that. Later, I said if they were planning on selling an asset to pay them off, I was not opposed to that.

[Indulto]

... NY politics aside, it is obvious from the report that the NYRA was woefully mismanaging their money/cash and willfully ignoring their own and NY state financial policies while building up a $400 million debt to NY State. Who knows how many millions was squandered or stolen during NYRA's tenure....or how much was swept under the table with the indictment being deferred so that the whole NY racing enterprise didn't collapse (which, I agree, would have been a disaster).
You make it sound like they deserve a medal for "Best Practices in Administration"trigger,
What would have happened to the racing and agriculture industries and state/local government revenue streams in NY if the NYRA had not incurred that $400 million debt? Is it possible that debt had some beneficial results or effects?

Is the NYRA's debt to the state any more questionable than MEC's debt to Magna Int.?

Are your complaints based on your perspective as a horseplayer, NY State taxpayer, and/or something else?

As a horseplayer, do you believe YOUR enjoyment and/or profits from betting on racing at SAR, BEL, and AQU will be enhanced by an operator other than NYRA, and if so, why?

[BillW]

University of Albany Law Professor Bennett Liebman, expert in racing law interviewed on the NYRA situation at 4:00 PM EDST on At The Races.

[PaceAdvantage]

even after its President was put on direct, personal notice of the likelihood of employee tax fraud, NYRA never reported it to regulators or law enforcement[/b]"

Not to belabor this, but it also says in that quote "likelihood" of fraud, not proof of fraud or definite fraud. Semantics, I know....

NY politics aside, it is obvious from the report that the NYRA was woefully mismanaging their money/cash and willfully ignoring their own and NY state financial policies while building up a $400 million debt to NY State.

I've never stated NYRA deserved any medal for anything. It's a sad state of affairs when the NYRA is the best choice to run racing for another 20 years in NY, but that is reality. I really wish another organization out there had come along with the history and the foresight to lead NY racing into a second golden age, but the prospects presented (Empire, Excelsior, Capital Play) were severely lacking in many areas. Thus, I choose to stick with the devil I know.....

My point in all this is that the $400 million debt is owed in good part to the aftermath of the federal indictment, which in my opinion was unwarranted.

[Gibbon]

"....tax evasion scam for their employees like the NYRA was, I'm sure they would be investigated......" Trigger,

Undoubtedly you are the only one in America who files your tax returns honestly and fairly down to the penny.

No wait – the IRS is listening. I withdraw the above.







_________________________
Opportunity often comes disguised in the form of misfortune, or temporary defeat.

[Indulto]

... Undoubtedly you are the only one in America who files your tax returns honestly and fairly down to the penny.

No wait – the IRS is listening. I withdraw the above.Don't assume everyone else practices your self-proclaimed non-compliance. That said, it has no bearing on the NYRA's suitability to continue operating the NY racing franchise. The clerks judged to be criminals got what they deserved. IMO the NYRA deserves more censure for Braulio's predicament than for that of the clerks.

Too bad we can't have access to NYRA board meeting transcripts and decisions the way we do the CHRB's. Then we'd be able to pinpoint when poor decisions were made and who made them.

[trigger]

trigger,
What would have happened to the racing and agriculture industries and state/local government revenue streams in NY if the NYRA had not incurred that $400 million debt? Is it possible that debt had some beneficial results or effects?

According to this, lots of it went for frivolous expenditures: http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/jan05/011105a.htm

Is the NYRA's debt to the state any more questionable than MEC's debt to Magna Int.?
The MEC/Magna debt is something the stockholders of MECA have to deal with; the NYRA debt is something the NY taxpayers have to deal with.....big difference.

Are your complaints based on your perspective as a horseplayer, NY State taxpayer, and/or something else?
A horseplayer and interested citizen.

As a horseplayer, do you believe YOUR enjoyment and/or profits from betting on racing at SAR, BEL, and AQU will be enhanced by an operator other than NYRA, and if so, why?
Generally, I tend to think that any activity that has been shown that it can be conducted successfully and equitably as a profit making enterprise in the private sector ought be in the private sector where it is answerable to its customers and stockholders ( and ,of course, to the government(and IRS) via duly established laws and regulations). IMHO, this approach has worked out fairly well for our country so far.
Governmental operation of activities that should be left to the private sector usually winds up poorly managed, rife with patronage , and cost much more than they should.

[Gibbon]

Indulto,

My statement was not intended to be absolute but allegorical....

NYRA has not done anything other than any fortune 500 corporation routinely window dress their books. Illegal activity should and will be punished.

To claim NYRA senior management actively participated in such activity is not a reasonable claim. Among any large group of people you will find some corruption. Overall NYRA has done an admirable job compared to the rest of this troubled industry.

Lets stop all the conjecture. NYRA is an anchor within our game. Lose NYRA and possibly lose or at least relegate our game to minimalist status. Yes it's that dire. Racinos are short term band aids.

Currently, NYRA stands as the five time superbowl winners - San Francisco 49ers. We, all horseplayers, cannot afford to lose NYRA.






_______________________________________
Opportunity often comes disguised in the form of misfortune, or temporary defeat.

[trigger]

Trigger,

Undoubtedly you are the only one in America who files your tax returns honestly and fairly down to the penny.

No wait – the IRS is listening. I withdraw the above.


_________________________
Opportunity often comes disguised in the form of misfortune, or temporary defeat.

Well, not to the penny....sometimes I "round" some of the figures

[ihatenyra]

No way in the world can new york racing survive another 20 years of cheating, mismanagement, and dishonesty

[cj]

No way in the world can new york racing survive another 20 years of cheating, mismanagement, and dishonesty

Judging by your selected handle, glad to have your completely unbiased and objective opinion.

[ihatenyra]

Judging by your selected handle, glad to have your completely unbiased and objective opinion.

Hey I didn't start out that way man.

[Tom]

No way in the world can new york racing survive another 20 years of cheating, mismanagement, and dishonesty

Interesting idea.
Can you provide a timeline, showing examples of this horrible behavior and corresponding drops in handle?
I would love to send it to Spitzer, so try to get that done soon,

Thanks very much for good, verifible data for me to use.

[Indulto]

University of Albany Law Professor Bennett Liebman, expert in racing law interviewed on the NYRA situation at 4:00 PM EDST on At The Races.My biggest disappointment in ATRAB to date. With perhaps the most knowledgable person available to answer questions as to what should and could be happening with the franchise and the OTBs, all we got was a recap of recent news articles and no additional insights. Not DT's finest moment as he wasted an incredible opportunity for meaningful dialogue with someone not afraid to speak his mind.

Obviously interviews with people like Liebman require different preparation than interviews with trainers and horseplayers..

[gonatas]

[QUOTE=Bruddah]Let's see...The NYRA has debts of $400 million, which are mostly loans received from the state, in order to keep a sinking ship afloat. Oh yeah! Let's let them run the ship for another 20 years. They need only to lose $20 million a year, for the next 20 years, and be ahead of inflation. Such a deal???
[QUOTE]

The NYRA is in "debt" because of the way the state has forced them to do business over the years.

[Bruddah]

but, the NYRA has run under this business model for over 50 years. It doesn't take smart business people 50 years to realize they are fighting a losing battle with a faulty business plan. I contend their business was good until "Tony" and the boys (Unions) started getting too greedy. Not to mention the most inept management in horse racing. They managed to take the best product in this sport to all time lows.

I reiterate, it means nothing to me any longer. I stopped playing NYRA tracks period and won't support any racing business model which leaves them running the asylum. I see the NYRA as a shame and a pox on the industry. You can blame whomever or whatever you will, but you have to ask yourself, who was running the asylum for over 50 years.

You die hard ostriches can keep your heads buried in the sand. It won't be any skin off my wallet. So, breathe deep and suck in all the air you can. When you finally remove your heads from the sand, maybe you will have racing in New York. Then again, maybe not. :confused:

[PaceAdvantage]

but, the NYRA has run under this business model for over 50 years. It doesn't take smart business people 50 years to realize they are fighting a losing battle with a faulty business plan.The NYRA is "forced" to operated under a 50 year old business plan because it has never been changed/updated. The NYRA can't change the way money is distributed....only the state can....thus the NYRA can't really change the way it operates....it still has to operate under that 50 year old business plan until the state says otherwise.

I contend their business was good until "Tony" and the boys (Unions) started getting too greedy. Not to mention the most inept management in horse racing. They managed to take the best product in this sport to all time lows.What is your basis for measurement? How do you judge that the product is at an all time low? And when you say all time low, is this in comparison to past NYRA eras or in comparison to other current racing circuits around the country? From the quote above, this could be interpreted in more than one way.

I stopped playing NYRA tracks period and won't support any racing business model which leaves them running the asylum. I see the NYRA as a shame and a pox on the industry.If you stopped playing, how will you be able to judge if they make a lower low or a higher high in the months and years to come? :lol:

A shame and a pox on the industry? How so? Have they held the Belmont Stakes hostage for slots like MAGNA has with the Preakness? Have they cancelled the Jockey Club Gold Cup like MAGNA did with the Pimlico Special?

I didn't see Hong Kong racing looking to pick up any MAGNA or Churchill Downs executives to fill a void....they tabbed NYRA's Bill Nader. Now why would they do that? If it's one thing Hong Kong folks don't like, it's dealing with poxes...

You die hard ostriches can keep your heads buried in the sand. It won't be any skin off my wallet. So, breathe deep and suck in all the air you can. When you finally remove your heads from the sand, maybe you will have racing in New York. Then again, maybe not. :confused:

Given that you don't play NYRA anymore, who are you to judge? The racing situation is nowhere near as dire as you make it out to be. Racing is alive and well in NY. What's wrong with the current Belmont meeting? Oh wait, that's right, you don't play any NYRA races, so how would you know?

Just checked Thursday's charts and I see Belmont not only outdrew Hollywood in terms of live attendance, but also beat them in the handle department as well. Was Hollywood taken over by the NYRA recently? How could the lowest of the low beat anyone at anything?

Signed,

Your friendly, long-necked fowl.

[Tom]

To NYRA's credit, the state of NY has never and never will participate in a successful project on any scale. The product NYRA has put out in psite of the NYS MORONS is not only suprising, it is unbelievable!
NYRA puts out one of the top products in the country and NYS is one of if not the WORST friggin state in the union. The ONLY thing NYS ever did right was build good roads - so everyone could get the HELL out easier.
Spitzer is an anchor on anything he is associated with. So NYRA, hats off for swimming with CROCK-a-diles and putting on a good show. :ThmbUp:

[aaron]

PA-
I also see on Thrusday and Friday, both Mth and Cd had more attendance than NYRA. Any reason when comparing NYRA to other tracks you failed to mention this. Also,there are day's when the Meadowlands harness outdraw NYRA in terms of attendance.
All is not rosy at NYRA despite your "rose colored glasses". As someone who attends the races at NYRA, I sometimes suspect they are counting eyes instead of people.

[Indulto]

PA-
I also see on Thrusday and Friday, both Mth and Cd had more attendance than NYRA. Any reason when comparing NYRA to other tracks you failed to mention this. Also,there are day's when the Meadowlands harness outdraw NYRA in terms of attendance.
All is not rosy at NYRA despite your "rose colored glasses". As someone who attends the races at NYRA, I sometimes suspect they are counting eyes instead of people.A2,
In the time I have been interacting with members of this board, it has become clear to me that as an on-track bettor, I am in the vast minority. The recently developed ability for off-track players to get more action in greater comfort with increased flexibility at less expense suggests that handle -- and portion of it reaching the operators and horseman -- is a far more useful tool than attendance in evaluating management performance.

Recent analyses of contribution to handle from VLT players and revenue from VLTs at many racetracks suggest their positive impact on racing is diminishing as have all other on-track sources.

NYRA deserves no less scrutiny and criticism than other racetrack operators, but who are you confident could replace NYRA and provide YOU with a more satisfying horseplaying experience, and for how long?

[RXB]

Personally, I thought that this was the most telling line from the article:

NYRA is already preparing to oust trustees under Spitzer's plan for a "reconstituted" association that would be subservient to the VLT operator.

Not that I blame the politicos, really. Slots are much more reliable money-makers than racetracks.

[Indulto]

trigger,

What would have happened to the racing and agriculture industries and state/local government revenue streams in NY if the NYRA had not incurred that $400 million debt? Is it possible that debt had some beneficial results or effects?According to this, lots of it went for frivolous expenditures: http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/jan05/011105a.htm
OK, that's $1 M. What about the other $399 M?As a horseplayer, do you believe YOUR enjoyment and/or profits from betting on racing at SAR, BEL, and AQU will be enhanced by an operator other than NYRA, and if so, why?Generally, I tend to think that any activity that has been shown that it can be conducted successfully and equitably as a profit making enterprise in the private sector ought be in the private sector where it is answerable to its customers and stockholders ( and ,of course, to the government(and IRS) via duly established laws and regulations). IMHO, this approach has worked out fairly well for our country so far.

Governmental operation of activities that should be left to the private sector usually winds up poorly managed, rife with patronage , and cost much more than they should.How is that approach working at other racetracks?

Do you think SAR would survive in the form even non-horseplayers support under private management?

Your last paragraph may well be true in most cases, but this may be an exception since the premier status of NY racing may benefit all NY state residents and not just racing fans.

[trigger]

[size=2]OK, that's $1 M. What about the other $399 M?
How is that approach working at other racetracks?
.PARTIAL

The $1 mil is only for 2 years worth of "inappropriate" travel and entertainment expenditures ....multiply $500,000 for every year NYRA has been in charge for full effect. Also , the article indicates there are 3 (at least) more audits to come.....procurement, franchise fee, and backstretch operations.

The private approach to operating racetracks is a mixed bag at this point. But, I'll wager that the tracks left standing after the longterm crises of loss of popularity is dealt with will be private rather than a state operated( even though subsidized). Too much politics and taxpayer reluctance will eventually doom NYRA type operations.
The most important thing that NY horse racing has had going for it is that NYers love racing, are excellent handicappers, lay it in there when they think they are right, and have been prone to giving the NYRA slack over the years. I just don't know how longer the NY fans can hang in there ( especially since they are absorbing much punishment at the hands of the Red Sox recently).

[PaceAdvantage]

PA-
I also see on Thrusday and Friday, both Mth and Cd had more attendance than NYRA. Any reason when comparing NYRA to other tracks you failed to mention this.

I picked Hollywood because when it comes to racing in the United States, two areas are most mentioned when discussing the "top tracks in the country."

That being NY and Southern California racing. Would you not agree?

For what it's worth, I did check out the Monmouth chart for Thursday, and I did note that Monmouth drew more folks....but then I looked at the overall handle for the day and saw there was no comparison....Belmont blew Monmouth out of the water completely....ON TRACK (even though Monmouth drew more fans) and OFF TRACK handle...not even CLOSE.

Not bad for "the lowest of the low"

[aaron]

Pa-
I agree NY and California were the places to start when you mention top tracks in the US. Unfortunately,other than GR 1 Stake racing,the racing around the country at most level 1 tracks is not much different these days.
If you eliminate NY Bred races from a daily race card in NY,what are you left with ?
As,I've stated before NY's handle is not approachable by other venues,but since some much of it is off track,it causes both NYRA and the inept OTB's to lose money. This cannot be fixed,because of the politics involved. NYRA had opportunities in the past to either withhold its signal or demand a higher rate,but never had the leadership to follow through.

[the little guy]

As,I've stated before NY's handle is not approachable by other venues,but since some much of it is off track,it causes both NYRA and the inept OTB's to lose money. This cannot be fixed,because of the politics involved. NYRA had opportunities in the past to either withhold its signal or demand a higher rate,but never had the leadership to follow through.



So, I looked at the Thursday stats from Belmont as compared to Churchill and Monmouth.....

Belmont.......Attendance 3437............on-track handle $770,310

Churchill.......Attendance 4526...........on-track handle $435,346

Monmouth....Attendance 5184...........on-track handle $333,560


Now, either at least one of these track is lying about their attendance, or somebody is doing a terrible job of getting on-track handle from their customers.

My best guess is that NYRA is not intentionally lowering their attendance number. What's everyone else's excuse?

[PaceAdvantage]

Which begs the question, "Why should the NYRA change a thing when it comes to the racing product?" when they are absolutely killing all these other tracks in terms of handle. I pose this question to those who believe the NYRA should be disbanded and some other entity take its place. WHY? They deserve to be taken over by another entity who can't pull in similar numbers at their own tracks? How absurd.

If the NYRA product truly was the "lowest of the low" as termed by at least one person in this thread, then people wouldn't be going out of their way to EMPTY THEIR WALLETS once the gates open.

Yes, certain things need to be changed in the way racing BUSINESS is conducted in NY, what with the OTBs and the percentages taken by the state, etc. etc.

BUT, one thing that is crystal clear is that the NYRA is still putting out the best product in the country, or else they wouldn't be pulling in the HIGHEST handle (and that INCLUDES ON-TRACK even though they may DRAW LESS on any given day).

[ELA]

Which begs the question, "Why should the NYRA change a thing when it comes to the racing product?" when they are absolutely killing all these other tracks in terms of handle. I pose this question to those who believe the NYRA should be disbanded and some other entity take its place. WHY? They deserve to be taken over by another entity who can't pull in similar numbers at their own tracks? How absurd.

If the NYRA product truly was the "lowest of the low" as termed by at least one person in this thread, then people wouldn't be going out of their way to EMPTY THEIR WALLETS once the gates open.

Yes, certain things need to be changed in the way racing BUSINESS is conducted in NY, what with the OTBs and the percentages taken by the state, etc. etc.

BUT, one thing that is crystal clear is that the NYRA is still putting out the best product in the country, or else they wouldn't be pulling in the HIGHEST handle (and that INCLUDES ON-TRACK even though they may DRAW LESS on any given day).


Great post and points. Thought provoking as well. As we all know, this topic has been argued and debated for a very long time. I've never been a flag-waving fan of NYRA as some of the things they've done are inexcusable -- for example, the NYTHA horsemens account issue. Whether or not that was standard operating proceedure, I don't know; but what I thought was inexcusable was the lack of open and timely communication. Would this situation have been resolved -- as quickly -- without the involvement and intervention of Neil Getnick? Of course, like many -- as a fan, bettor and horse owner, I have my other gripes as well.

Be that as it may, I think some people tend to get to caught up in the "hatred" aspect and because of that cannot see past the hatred.

The business model in NY is broken -- period. Nobody was interested in taking over the franchise before VLT's were a reality -- not even when the legislation was in it's infancy. Nobody wanted to put up any money until the very last minute. Now, we all understand that, and I am not saying that anyone should be condemned for that. However, it's NYRA that has been trying to keep the Titanic afloat for many years. Have there been mistakes? Of course. Have there been abuses? I guess the spending, expenses, T&E, etc. could be considered abuses, but I am not quite sure someone can say that and make it a fact. I see T&E expenses in my own business that makes we wonder sometimes, LOL, and I am the owner, LOL.

Many of the obvious changes that people recommend fall under the "easier said than done" category. I am not defending NYRA -- however, I am defending NY Racing and what we see today. A new, more open, communicative, transparent, strategic, NYRA is needed. One that is more nimble and can be more fan, bettor, owner, horsemen, etc. friendly. One that has the political clout to change what is broken. What we see today is a direct result and is directly proportionate to the entire environment that has existed in the past. Change the rules, the laws, OTB's, tax rates, VLT's, etc. -- change what needs to be changed and you will see very different results.

Believe me -- I have plenty of gripes, complaints, etc. regarding NYRA. However, as a fan -- for my entire life, a bettor -- from the earliest I could play (and even before that), and owner, who has been in this game for my entire adult life . . . I am confident and convinced that NYRA -- a new NYRA -- is the most qualified, competent and capable of running the franchise and NY Racing.

Eric

[Kelso]

So, I looked at the Thursday stats from Belmont as compared to Churchill and Monmouth.....

Monmouth....Attendance 5184...........on-track handle $333,560

Now, either at least one of these track is lying about their attendance, or somebody is doing a terrible job of getting on-track handle from their customers.


I was at Monmouth Thursday. I'm very poor at estimating crowd sizes, but if forced to guess I would put DAYTIME (live racing) attendance at less than a thousand. No idea how many flow through free turnstiles after 5:00pm or so.

[alysheba88]

As one who has gone to both Belmont and Monmouth alot- the crowd at Monmouth is much more the casual fan. They dont bet as much. Its more about having a good time. Thats why Monmouth will have decent attendance, but low handle.

The average age of the fan is much lower too.

[aaron]

On another site a friend of mine made this suggestion-
The racing franchise should be turned over to a reconstructed NYRA.They should hire an executive search firm to find a hands on manager with a proven record of success.Racetrack experience desirable,but not necessary.If Boeing could hire a CEO without aerospace experience,NYRA certainly could consider hiring a CEO without racing experience.
As for the slot part of the franchise,it seems that any group headed by Steve Wynn would seem a no brainer.
As for the racing product itself, I believe no matter who is put in charge the product itself will remain constant.The product has stayed in tact no matter who has run the franchise.This has been pointed out by many people on the board,so what is needed is a strong CEO who can turn the business model around.
This product has survived Gerald Mckeon,Kenny Noe,and others of the same ilk,so the racing is not the problem.

[Bruddah]

If the NYRA product truly was the "lowest of the low" as termed by at least one person in this thread, then people wouldn't be going out of their way to EMPTY THEIR WALLETS once the gates open.

Now what I did say was this:

but, the NYRA has run under this business model for over 50 years. It doesn't take smart business people 50 years to realize they are fighting a losing battle with a faulty business plan. I contend their business was good until "Tony" and the boys (Unions) started getting too greedy. Not to mention the most inept management in horse racing. They managed to take the best product in this sport to all time lows.

I also said this:

Really, other than being disappointed for horse racing, it makes no difference to me. I haven't bet a New York track in two years. It's a shame too, because I love Saratoga and still think it's the finest racing in the country.

Just in case you weren't referencing my remarks, please show any others which might apply. You know, I first caught you lying to and "hood winking" your membership years ago. You openly challenged me and I outed you, at that time, with facts, from your own website. I proved, beyond a shadow of doubt, you were posting under an alias and touting the wonders of your handicapping software. Once, I oughted you as a false poster and proved it, you came back posting and asking for everyone's forgiveness. Truthfully, I have never seen you ever support your or suppositions or arguments, with facts. You try and use a "Bully Pulpit". However, you will never use it on me.

All I can say is what a Marooon!! :kiss: :)

[DerbyTrail]

My biggest disappointment in ATRAB to date. With perhaps the most knowledgable person available to answer questions as to what should and could be happening with the franchise and the OTBs, all we got was a recap of recent news articles and no additional insights. Not DT's finest moment as he wasted an incredible opportunity for meaningful dialogue with someone not afraid to speak his mind.

Obviously interviews with people like Liebman require different preparation than interviews with trainers and horseplayers..

I certainly didn't waste any opportunity with Liebman given that he's happy to join me on the show whenever he can and whenever there's something concrete to comment on... You're something to behold.. Did you actually listen? Liebman answered the way he answered... I don't have control over what he answers. He and I have had several conversations leading up to his coming on last week. I suppose that what he chooses to say publicly and what he says in pre-interviews or discussions aren't going to be the same thing until there is at least some clarity from which to draw. I asked him about the OTB situation.. I asked about what a re-constituted NYRA board might look like.. I asked him what he envisioned moving forward. He chose to answer the way he answered based on what appeared to be conflicting reports as of that moment. Sorry if it wasn't up to your high standards.

[trigger]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]BUT, one thing that is crystal clear is that the NYRA is still putting out the best product in the country, or else they wouldn't be pulling in the HIGHEST handle (and that INCLUDES ON-TRACK even though they may DRAW LESS on any given day).[Partial/QUOTE]

For the record.....I am fairly certain that, normally, Hollywood's handle for onsite wagering is much more than Belmont (much bigger per capita wager at Hollywood) and 10 to 20 % more in total handle especially when they run 9 races over the weekend (vs. 8 weekdays).

[Kelso]

So, I looked at the Thursday stats from Belmont as compared to Churchill and Monmouth.....

Belmont.......Attendance 3437............on-track handle $770,310
Churchill.......Attendance 4526...........on-track handle $435,346
Monmouth....Attendance 5184...........on-track handle $333,560


Does "on-track handle" include onsite simulcast wagering, or only what was pushed through the window for each track's live racing card?

[the little guy]

My biggest disappointment in ATRAB to date. With perhaps the most knowledgable person available to answer questions as to what should and could be happening with the franchise and the OTBs, all we got was a recap of recent news articles and no additional insights. Not DT's finest moment as he wasted an incredible opportunity for meaningful dialogue with someone not afraid to speak his mind.

Obviously interviews with people like Liebman require different preparation than interviews with trainers and horseplayers..


I realize that you are a fan of Steve's show, just as I realize that Steve is my friend, and your support of the show certainly outweighs your criticisms ( in fact your criticisms, though I may sometimes disagree, are welcome and appreciated ). However, in this case I really think you are being unfair. As Steve said, he asked him questions, but more importantly, he simply let him talk. As noted, he can't control his answers, he can merely attempt to ask the right questions. In this case, IMO, he did ask the right questions, at least as far as the time period allowed. He did do his preparation, you can be sure of that, and while I am sorry if it didn't live up to your hopes or expectations, he was far from unprepared.

I thought Ben addressed the issue extremely well......as in essense what he said is that while there is a great deal of conjecture, nobody really knows exactly what is going on. He was being honest and considering the legistature left this session without resolving this issue it seems that he was absolutely correct. Even they, apparently, don't have any conclusive answers.

[PaceAdvantage]

Truthfully, I have never seen you ever support your or suppositions or arguments, with facts.

Oh my, you've cut me deep.....:lol:

Handle and attendance are some pretty interesting FACTS if you ask me. Is handle at NYRA at "an all time low?" Am I inventing these handle and attendance numbers?

Bully me this, Sam Spade.

[PaceAdvantage]

You know, I first caught you lying to and "hood winking" your membership years ago.

I believe my tireless years of service to the fine folks of this board, providing this free community and making sure things don't get too far out of hand, have more than made up for my ONE error in judgement made in the VERY DISTANT past.

But I sent you a "Gold Star" via private message all the same, since you seem to be crying out for a pat on the back and a little validation this evening, even if it's been SEVEN YEARS in the making....

Now, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[Indulto]

My biggest disappointment in ATRAB to date. With perhaps the most knowledgable person available to answer questions as to what should and could be happening with the franchise and the OTBs, all we got was a recap of recent news articles and no additional insights. Not DT's finest moment as he wasted an incredible opportunity for meaningful dialogue with someone not afraid to speak his mind.

Obviously interviews with people like Liebman require different preparation than interviews with trainers and horseplayers..I certainly didn't waste any opportunity with Liebman given that he's happy to join me on the show whenever he can and whenever there's something concrete to comment on... You're something to behold.. Did you actually listen? Liebman answered the way he answered... I don't have control over what he answers. He and I have had several conversations leading up to his coming on last week. I suppose that what he chooses to say publicly and what he says in pre-interviews or discussions aren't going to be the same thing until there is at least some clarity from which to draw. I asked him about the OTB situation.. I asked about what a re-constituted NYRA board might look like.. I asked him what he envisioned moving forward. He chose to answer the way he answered based on what appeared to be conflicting reports as of that moment. Sorry if it wasn't up to your high standards.DT,
Indeed I have very high standards. If you weren't capable of meeting those standards, as you have on several other occasions, your failure to meet them this time wouldn't have been as noticeable and I wouldn't have bothered expressing my disappointment.

Granted, I follow the NY racing franchise saga very closely, and so I was already aware of what the two of you covered, but my guess is that most of your audience is also aware of coverage by the industry press and the various newspapers who regularly cover this story, e.g., The Saratogian, Albany Times Union, Troy Record, New York Times, etc. Most of us who listen to your show -- and are interested in this story -- already know how to Google "New York Racing" news articles and sort them by date. We don't need reiteration of those articles on ATRAB, we need insights only insiders such as yourself can glean from knowledgable sources, and a consistent effort to draw the details out of them.

On other occasions, you have posed follow-up questions to your guests to elicit more substance and detail, e.g., with the NTRA guy re: the BC expansion. You didn't press the TrackNet guy, but at least you subsequently explained your reluctance to do so fairly reasonably. If you're now implying that Liebman was unexpectedly not forthcoming, why didn't you ask him if he were under some kind of constraint related to some consultation he may be providing to one of the principals? Why don't YOU listen again and count how many times you extolled Liebman's credentials, but then avoided pressing for insights worthy of such introductions.

If Liebman is as willing to return as you say, then maybe you'll get another opportunity to have him specify in detail what changes he would recommend (and what supporting legislation would be required) to the not-for-profit NYRA model, the NYRA-OTB relationship/structure, and the planned VLT involvement with racing in New York State. Hopefully you'll find out ahead of time what he is willing to discuss in public and what he is not.

I assume you receive compensation for your "work" on the show. If that is true, you should NOT take my assessment of your "performance" personally, or consider it an insult.

BTW is "answered the way he answered" your version of "it is what it is?" I can only respond with "just enough isn't." I'm not sure how to react to your "behold" remark as I normally only get that from the opposite sex. ;)
I realize that you are a fan of Steve's show, just as I realize that Steve is my friend, and your support of the show certainly outweighs your criticisms ( in fact your criticisms, though I may sometimes disagree, are welcome and appreciated ). However, in this case I really think you are being unfair. As Steve said, he asked him questions, but more importantly, he simply let him talk. As noted, he can't control his answers, he can merely attempt to ask the right questions. In this case, IMO, he did ask the right questions, at least as far as the time period allowed. He did do his preparation, you can be sure of that, and while I am sorry if it didn't live up to your hopes or expectations, he was far from unprepared.

I thought Ben addressed the issue extremely well......as in essense what he said is that while there is a great deal of conjecture, nobody really knows exactly what is going on. He was being honest and considering the legistature left this session without resolving this issue it seems that he was absolutely correct. Even they, apparently, don't have any conclusive answers.tlg,
I appreciate both your recognition that some of my comments might actually be useful, and your acknowledgement that your response may be influenced by your personal friendship with DT.

I don't think I was unfair. Yes, I've come to expect a certain level of honesty, clarity, and BS-free discussion from the ATRAB crew. This segment didn't meet that expectation. That doesn't mean others don't. I don't think either of you should try to defend it, but rather ensure there is greater anticipation of what might go wrong the next time such an opportunity presents itself. I never said he was unprepared, but it's clear he didn't or couldn't adjust for the unexpected THIS TIME. No, I couldn't do a better job, and nobody's going to pay me to try, but if there weren't some accuracy to my observations, I doubt that either of you would have replied.

I suspect Liebman, himself, may not be as satisfied with the interview as you claim to be, assuming he had time to listen to it again afterwards. Maybe you should try and find out.

[Bruddah]

I believe my tireless years of service to the fine folks of this board, providing this free community and making sure things don't get too far out of hand, have more than made up for my ONE error in judgement made in the VERY DISTANT past.

But I sent you a "Gold Star" via private message all the same, since you seem to be crying out for a pat on the back and a little validation this evening, even if it's been SEVEN YEARS in the making....

Now, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[B]What they are really worshipping. Personally, I choose not to worship you because, you have chosen to worship yourself. (see your comments above) Oh! we are so unworthy of the truth.

I do contend, if you chose to lie and deceive your readers, for a self serving monetary purpose back then, and you continue to misquote others to support your posts today, your public is still dealing with a SELF SERVING LIAR

I gladly accept my Gold Star for helping to expose your 'wolf in sheeps clothing' act. :D

Bowing and scraping as I leave the room. :D :D

[ihatenyra]

Which begs the question, "Why should the NYRA change a thing when it comes to the racing product?" when they are absolutely killing all these other tracks in terms of handle. I pose this question to those who believe the NYRA should be disbanded and some other entity take its place. WHY? They deserve to be taken over by another entity who can't pull in similar numbers at their own tracks? How absurd.

If the NYRA product truly was the "lowest of the low" as termed by at least one person in this thread, then people wouldn't be going out of their way to EMPTY THEIR WALLETS once the gates open.

Yes, certain things need to be changed in the way racing BUSINESS is conducted in NY, what with the OTBs and the percentages taken by the state, etc. etc.

BUT, one thing that is crystal clear is that the NYRA is still putting out the best product in the country, or else they wouldn't be pulling in the HIGHEST handle (and that INCLUDES ON-TRACK even though they may DRAW LESS on any given day).

You have to be joking on this one. You're actually using handle as a reason nyra is going a good job? You ever stop and think that maybe thats because the tracks are located in the most populated area in the country? Knicks sell out every game but their product stinks. Rangers didn't make the playoffs for almost a decade yet they still always drew. Now theres a good comparison, NYRA and Jim Dolan!!

Both are incompetent yet own products that even when they do a poor job are still lucrative products due to the location and history. But hey I guess we should all pat jim dolan on the back for the job he's doing right? :bang:

[the little guy]

You have to be joking on this one. You're actually using handle as a reason nyra is going a good job? You ever stop and think that maybe thats because the tracks are located in the most populated area in the country? Knicks sell out every game but their product stinks. Rangers didn't make the playoffs for almost a decade yet they still always drew. Now theres a good comparison, NYRA and Jim Dolan!!

Both are incompetent yet own products that even when they do a poor job are still lucrative products due to the location and history. But hey I guess we should all pat jim dolan on the back for the job he's doing right? :bang:


Which is it....NYRA is doing a lousy job because attendance stinks or the only reason their handle is high is because they reside in a well populated areas? Whichever, it's a weak argument, to say the least.

Your comparison to the Knicks and Rangers is also a poor one, as MSG is in midtown Manhattan, while Belmont and Aqueduct are 20-25 miles out of NYC. A better comparison would be, perhaps, the Islanders. How's their attendance?

[alysheba88]

Knicks have had tons of empty seats since their playoff years.

Dolan has alienated many fans and done a piss poor job.

Mets were lousy for years and couldnt draw people. Now they are good and drawing well.

Yankees couldnt draw flies in early 90's now they do.

[saratoga guy]

You have to be joking on this one. You're actually using handle as a reason nyra is going a good job? You ever stop and think that maybe thats because the tracks are located in the most populated area in the country?


You do realize that inter-state wagering at AQU and BEL dwarves on-track wagering, right?

As such, it's hard to credit the handle to the NYC population base...

[PaceAdvantage]

[B]What they are really worshipping. Personally, I choose not to worship you because, you have chosen to worship yourself. (see your comments above) Oh! we are so unworthy of the truth.

Worship....lol....that's a good one!

You're obviously a little whacked, cause ain't nobody on here worshipping me! And if you think that there is, than that's your own deep-rooted problem you must learn to deal with....in fact, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were some frustrated message board owner/operator of your own who's just a tad jealous.

Now try and get back on the topic of this thread.

[ELA]

You have to be joking on this one. You're actually using handle as a reason nyra is going a good job? You ever stop and think that maybe thats because the tracks are located in the most populated area in the country? Knicks sell out every game but their product stinks. Rangers didn't make the playoffs for almost a decade yet they still always drew. Now theres a good comparison, NYRA and Jim Dolan!!

Both are incompetent yet own products that even when they do a poor job are still lucrative products due to the location and history. But hey I guess we should all pat jim dolan on the back for the job he's doing right? :bang:

I think it's "your handle" that says it all. I would think with a basis of "hatred" any discussion is futile.

Eric

[Bruddah]

You're obviously a little whacked, cause ain't nobody on here worshipping me! And if you think that there is, than that's your own deep-rooted problem you must learn to deal with....in fact, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were some frustrated message board owner/operator of your own who's just a tad jealous.

Over the years, I have tried to avoid you and responded to you in a polite fashion. I only responded to your posts when I felt it absolutely necessary. I responded to you with facts and you always blustered back with Bull Crap. As I said in a previous post, you are a Self Serving Liar Another fact, proven and admitted by you. :kiss: :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

OK, now that this thread has been ruined by Bruddah because he can't stay on topic (probably because his "NYRA sucks" balloon is full of lead), let's clear the air (even though we cleared the air publicly on this board back in 2001 or whatever ancient year this occurred).

How exactly did I lie Bruddah? Except for the fact that I posted under another user name, can you please tell the folks exactly what facts about my program I posted that were not true? As I said back then, everything posted under that user name about my program was true. Creative marketing, yes, but every single fact posted about my program was the absolute truth.

Yup, it's the same program that had Street Sense on top in the Derby, the same program I used to pick Corinthian in this year's Met Mile and the same program I used to pick Bunny Junction today at Belmont (all posted publicly here on this board before the race, by the way).

So, now that we know that six years ago I posted about my program (which hasn't been for sale for at least five or six years) under a separate user name, but that everything posted about the program was true, perhaps we can get on with life...

For the past five or six years, I have been selling NOTHING to the public (nor do I intend to start again), nor have I EVER touted myself to be some sort of guru or some fantastically wealthy winning player. I started this board to learn, first and foremost, just likely almost everyone else on here....I will admit to being selfish in that regard. There's a wealth of knowledge here, and I intend to also benefit from it in any way I can.

I will also add that I have maintained this EVER POPULAR AND GROWING forum for free and I have held multiple contests with cash prizes (and another one coming up thanks to the generosity of PREMIER TURF CLUB). I continue to give free advertising space to the ExcellerFund.Org and I plan on doing the same for the Barbaro Fund in the near future.

With some MAJOR help from fellow board member Suff, and later Andicap, we've had many successful get togethers at Saratoga with a bunch of real nice, friendly folks from this board.

So you tell me Bruddah, what is your real beef with me? I frankly don't understand why your panties are tied in such a tight knot over an isolated incident that happened six years ago. You and I have communicated in a cordial fashion on more than a few occasions here on the board (and perhaps privately, although I can't recall any specific instances), so I don't understand what the point in rehashing six-year-old news could be, other than you have some sort of other agenda.

Or maybe it's simply that I misquoted you earlier in this thread. :rolleyes:

Or maybe it's something different....Someone PM'd me the other day telling me you are OldCodger from the HotTalkers.Com board. I remember that user name when I used to read that board from time to time.

I just checked and saw that HotTalkers.Com is no longer around. Didn't you have a major hand in that board's operation? Did my "jealous" comment in that last reply hit a little too close to home? Maybe, maybe not.

I apologize in advance to everyone who is bored to tears at this point, and I apologize for this thread getting sideswiped for literally no reason.

However, I feel I have been unfairly attacked publicly and must respond in kind.

[Bruddah]

Yes, I did own Hottalkers. After 7 years and a diagnosis of colin cancer, I decided to close the site. Never, repeat Never, was I ever jealous of this site or you. As a matter of fact, I recommended it openly to many, and still do. I live happily and thank God for every day he gives me.

We first became crossways, when I politely asked your other psuedonym not to 'hawk' your software because you, "he" had a vested interest. You, "he" came back and challenged me to prove my claim. I emailed you privately and told you, I could easily prove who you were. Again, "he" challenged me, openly on this forum. Having giving you a graceful chance for exit, I exposed you. Why? Because you were deceiving (lying)(creative marketing) to your readers and membership. You were OK with it then and, still are today.

Your outing was easily accomplished, because you allowed IP#'s to be shown on every member. (changed immediately and not allowed since) When I posted this self incriminating fact, you fessed up. It has been since that point you have taken opportunities to confront me, on many of my posts. Up until this thread, I have responded to you cordially and pointed out FACTS. Many, Many, Many times, you have misquoted me and my positions, which I ignored. Not only me, but many of the other members of this board have been, as well. It's obvious why, to support your positions, you deliberately distort what others have said. (Lying to self serve) :liar:

Basically, when you last misquoted me, it was the "straw which broke the camel's back". If you don't like the term Self Serving Liar, then change. I will give you the benefit of doubt, maybe it is a bad habit carried over from childhood. If you dislike being spanked publicly...tell the truth and support your positions with facts.

There must be signignificance to the Liar lable, because you have no defenders.

As far as I am concerned, this is my last post on this subject. Back to horse racing. :kiss:

[PaceAdvantage]

Listen, to be brutally honest, sometime in the last six years since I stopped selling my program, unlike you (obviously), I had totally forgotten about this incident, and the fact that you were the one who accused me of posting under another user name.

As you have so candidly pointed out, life has a way of getting in the way of lots of little things, especially memories of things long past, and this was one of them.

So please don't operate under the false impression that any of the heated discussions we may have had since 2001 (and I don't think we've had many at all) were a direct result of me seeking some sort of "board vengeance." Seriously, with all the different users and user names floating about this board, it completely slipped my mind (until you brought it up again this week) that you were the one who accused me of posting under another user name six years ago.

So, back to horse racing it is....thank goodness....but not before I wish you that the rest of your years here on Earth are healthy and cancer-free.