Shining example of why Iraq is Screwed Up..

[JustRalph]

CIA Lawyers Stopped a plan that would have killed the IED bomb makers when they assembled the bombs...........because the CIA apparently doesn't have the authority to do it............?

Who the hell does then?

Let's get busy on it right away.............!

You can't win a war, of any kind without the will to kill the enemy..........

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/08/AR2007060802405.html


The insurgents who kill our young soldiers are ruthless, but we have sometimes been cautious in our response. Take the question of targeting bomb makers: There may be an unlimited supply of explosives in Iraq, but there is not an unlimited supply of people who know how to wire the detonators. In 2004, CIA operatives in Iraq believed that they had identified the signatures of 11 bomb makers. They proposed a diabolical -- but potentially effective -- sabotage program that would have flooded Iraq with booby-trapped detonators designed to explode in the bomb makers' hands. But the CIA general counsel's office said no. The lawyers claimed that the agency lacked authority for such an operation, one source recalled.

~more at the link~

[Ivan]

Bombs cannot destroy an Ideology.


:cool:

[Ivan]

I'll elaborate...We can send 500,000 more troops and missiles and fighter jets and CIA and Drones... but again....This is an Ideology we are fighting

We need thinkers and communicaters....What are the core issues?

Obviously Palestine is one core issue the enemy has.I would mention the others but it's too late I think you get the point.

We should be trying to talk to and understand these people.(ARABS) Attacking them only creates more IED's and VBED's and eventually we will withdraw and accomplish NOTHING.


:sleeping:

[JustRalph]

We should be trying to talk to and understand these people.(ARABS)

I think I understand them............... try this for dialogue.......with them

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-jihad/

[Tom]

Yeah, talk to them. Right.
Post of the month right there.
Most intelligent thing I ever heard here.

Tell ya what.....I'll pay for the ailine ticket - YOU go talk to them! :lol:

[Shacopate]

I'm trying to join the Army right now. It's the only branch I can get into at my age. I'm prior service; USAF...but, unfortunately they gave me a 2 Bravo RE code on my DD214. That means NOT ELIGIBLE to re-enlist. It was a misconduct discharge. Wild days and crazy nights.

My friends think I've lost my mind because I told the recruiter that I was "shit-packed and ready for Iraq."

Why would you take a pay cut to work in the most dangerous place on earth?

I want to see with my own eyes the reality of Iraq. Not what the liberal media is showing me. I met some soldiers at a Hooters a few weeks back and they SOLD me. They told me, "they never show on TV that we're over there building schools and churches...re-building isn't allowed to be shown for some reason."

It really ticked me off that these gung-ho soldiers aren't getting the credit they deserve and really has me WAY DOWN on the media right now.

Also, their are alot of good kids in Iraq...most of them poor who joined the Army as a way to college. This has become their worst nightmare. I would love to witness to these brave young men and women who would make great ambassadors for Christ.

A soldier is willing to die for his county. A Christian is willing to die for his God. A Christian Soldier is one mean monkeyfunker.

Not ARMY STRONG but DOUBLE STRONG.

[Tom]

Hats off to you Shac....

[Light]

I want to see with my own eyes the reality of Iraq. Not what the liberal media is showing me.

By joining the military,you're going to have to view Iraq through the glasses of the U.S. military,not your own.

[Greyfox]

Making mistakes in Afghanistan now.

U.S.-Afghan force mistakenly kills 8 Afghan officers after police open fire

"Mistaking each other for the enemy, Afghan police fired four dozen grenades and U.S.-led coalition troops fought back with helicopter gunships in a fierce battle that left eight officers dead before dawn Tuesday, officials said.

The deadly lapse in communication underscored the wide gaps - and apparent mistrust - between U.S. and Afghan security forces. President Hamid Karzai's office called the deaths "a tragic incident" caused by a lack of co-operation and communication."

Story at http://newglasgownews.com/index.cfm?sid=37038&sc=49

Gads. Time for someone to step up to the plate and do things right.

[46zilzal]

Bombs cannot destroy an Ideology.




No one seems to get that. If you are equitable, and put yourself in their place, they have just as much passion about their point of view, and given their own choice would probably wind up with the same sort of govt that most in that region have an Islamic republic...

[Tom]

No one seems to get that. If you are equitable, and put yourself in their place, they have just as much passion about their point of view, and given their own choice would probably wind up with the same sort of govt that most in that region have an Islamic republic...

Tell it to them- they are using the bombs, not us. Me and Ralph are advocating blowing up the bombs at our convenience, not thiers.
And do not forget - the legal governemnt of Iraq has not asked us to leave right now, and keeps asking us to help them with security. The occuppying forces in Iraq are other muslems who are there to kill and main and all those other nice lice islamic things the koran is full of. We are the only ones there that offer any hope to Iraq. Why do you not castigate Iran for going in and purposely killing poeple, just us when that is absolutely not what we are doing?
Maybe you should use your "eye charts" on yourself - you ain't seeing the big picture!:lol:

[46zilzal]

Go into an area without any plans. Talk to, but don't listen to a word the military, CIA or experts in the regional structure of society tell you (read Woodward's State of Denial, or Fiasco, as it is all reviewed in both in detail) and this quagmire is what you get.

The locals will never give up. Never

[Tom]

When they come in from Iran, they are not locals.

[ljb]

Gentlemen,
We have tried it your way for the past 3 + years. Results are; near 4000 dead American troops, hundreds of thousands dead Iraq citizens, billions of dollars of U.S. debt, bigger mess in mid-east and gasoline at $3 +. Need I say more ?

[Shacopate]

Light,

My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, everything else is just gravy.

[GaryG]

Light,

My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, everything else is just gravy.:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Light]

Light,

My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, everything else is just gravy.

The Lord is not a recruiting agent for the U.S. Army. Find another excuse.

[Secretariat]

Shac,

Glad you're going. Keep your head down, and forget the glory and just do the best you can to survive and keep your brothers alive.

[46zilzal]

Make a copy of this to take with you, and remember how the beloved government regards your sacrifice:"Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns" -- Henry Kissinger

[Shacopate]

Light,

I'm not going to waste my time with you. Because I think you're an IDIOT, and probably a COWARD as well.

Have a nice day!

[Shacopate]

46,

WTF?

[Ivan]

Yeah, talk to them. Right.
Post of the month right there.
Most intelligent thing I ever heard here.

Tell ya what.....I'll pay for the ailine ticket - YOU go talk to them! :lol:

Ok TOM....Instead of sitting in NY bitching about it why don't YOU get off your ass and do something about it

Oh wait...It's easier to just sit back on your pc and complain about Policy


You ever hear of Diplomacy???


Ever think about WHY they are doing what they are doing?


Maybe it has a little to do with U.S and Israel suprressing ARABS...


USE YOUR BRAIN...Quit listening to the TV and think of the cause of all this


Think outside the box my friend


:cool:

[Greyfox]

USE YOUR BRAIN...Quit listening to the TV and think of the cause of all this

Think outside the box my friend


:cool:

The cause of this, whatever it was, goes back over 1,000 years.

[Shacopate]

Sec,

I appreaciate the kind words, but I am not IN yet. My last recourse is to write the congressman in my district (Ben Chandler, KY), which I have done and ask that he will change my RE code so that I may serve my country once again.

I'm not proud of my discharge (2 Bravo...misconduct; minor infractions).

But whenever the devil tries to remind me of my past...I will remind him of his future!

Late,

Shock

[GaryG]

Ok TOM....Instead of sitting in NY bitching about it why don't YOU get off your ass and do something about itWell Tom and I are a little old for military service. Negotiate with arabs???? The only thing they understand is the rule of tooth and claw. Bomb them back to the stone age....and don't stop there.

[Light]

Light,

I'm not going to waste my time with you. Because I think you're an IDIOT, and probably a COWARD as well.



You are clearly not intending to go to Iraq cause you want to see for yourself whats going on as you originally stated. Obviously with the attitude you display in the quote above your mind is allready made up. You're just a testosterone crazed,right wing,God is on our side fool, who doesnt know who he is and is looking for identity behind a gun.

[ljb]

shac,
You may want to check out Blackwatch. Much better pay. And company is owned by a rightwing Christian. Plus I here they don't have the restrictions gubermint troops have. Not sure what your primary motivation is but this may fill your need.

[Shacopate]

Lightweight,

I am a fool that doesn't know my own identity, LOL.

Good one...thank you sir, may I have another.

[Shacopate]

Lightweight,

You have alot of bitterness INSIDE of you.

Were you raped by a walrus at Sea World as a child?

[Light]

Lightweight,

I am a fool that doesn't know my own identity, LOL.



Then who are you?

[Shacopate]

Your worst nightmare.

No - a Christian Soldier that loves God, Country and family.

[Gibbon]

....CIA Lawyers Stopped a plan that would have killed the IED bomb makers....because the CIA apparently doesn't have the authority to do it........ As a wise sage once told me: Drownin in Diversity.

After the initial Shock and Awe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe), a brilliant military coup, the current white house leadership is not capable of finishing what was once an easy victory.

The commander and chief does not have the will nor backbone for clear victory. This “war” is not commanded by distinguished field marshals but by mid level bureaucrats and 1000 clerks.

Our spineless, pusillanimous poltroons we call leader should be ashamed. Alas, when we have effeminate males dictating policy, we have lost all respect in the region.

The ghost of General Sherman (http://www.cyberessays.com/History/142.htm) has left the theater.

Pentagon: Iraqi violence still rising;
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070614/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_pentagon_report

_____________________
_____________________

JR, You're killen me with that avatar. Just bought my kids the complete first, second, and third seasons of "Teen Titans." It's all they want to watch. I hate myself!







________________
Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster. ~ General Sherman

War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over. ~ General Sherman

[Light]

a Christian Soldier that loves God, Country and family.

Thats not who you are. Thats a preference.

[46zilzal]

I used to think things like this were funny. No longer.

[Shacopate]

Light,

So who are YOU?

I'm sure you'll provide a lenghty detail, being the stand-up guy you are...right?

[JustRalph]

Gentlemen,
We have tried it your way for the past 3 + years.

No way in hell they have tried it "My Way" we would have been done with Iraq and Iran by now, if we were doing it my way.

[46zilzal]

or self fulfillng prophecy like this one.

[46zilzal]

No way in hell they have tried it "My Way" we would have been done with Iraq and Iran by now, if we were doing it my way.
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/giraldi.php?articleid=10900

sure, it would be catastrophic

[Light]

Light,

So who are YOU?



I am an illusion.So are you. You may fight in Iraq for now,but this level of consciousness is for the unconscious.

[Shacopate]

Light,

And with that we will end all communications.

Good luck to ya.

[boxcar]

No one seems to get that. If you are equitable, and put yourself in their place, they have just as much passion about their point of view, and given their own choice would probably wind up with the same sort of govt that most in that region have an Islamic republic...

But bombs can kill believers of an ideology. And an ideology full of dead believers is for all practical intent and purposes itself dead!

Boxcar

[Ivan]

MORE of the same in Iraq is NOT the solution.

Well Tom and I are a little old for military service. Negotiate with arabs???? The only thing they understand is the rule of tooth and claw. Bomb them back to the stone age....and don't stop there.

I don't think we have a Bomb that could blow Arabs back to the Stone Age but it is probably in development.

lol

Hey Tom and GaryG, I agree to disagree... but I do crack up at your posts


Everyone here has a right to their opinion

I think the Late pick 4 at hollywood is more important than bombs that could blow Arabs back into the stone age:lol:

[hcap]

Hey, why not let Michelle Malkin lead us to victory.
All it takes is some early child no pansy, no surrendering, Islamofascist hate training. The long war starts at age 5.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007675.htm

"And how are we preparing the children of the West to defend themselves against these little soldiers of Allah?

Perhaps it's time for Ms. Coleman-Palansky to acquaint herself with the Palestinian Mickey Mouse. The chant of the little jihadists drowns out the Disneyfied reverie:

"What is your most lofty aspiration? Death for the sake of Allah!"

Scene 2: I have a pet peeve. It goes beyond the antiwar indoctrination rampant in American schools. At the playground and at the mall, I see 5-, 6- and 7-year-olds walking around with pacifiers in their mouths. Kids old enough to feed and dress themselves. Kids old enough to figure out the remote control and cell phone. Standing upright, suckling on brightly colored binkies."



You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!...

Richard Rodgers. Rodgers and Hammerstein
South Pacific

No freedom fries for junior, and now no pacifiers.
Tom, Jr, Ls, Pa, Gary, your goddess has spoken

[Tom]

Ever see the old B&W movies where they pull a loose thread and the guy's suit falls off?

This is one of those threads! :lol:

[46zilzal]

"And how are we preparing the children of the West to defend themselves against these little soldiers of Allah?

Perhaps it's time for Ms. Coleman-Palansky to acquaint herself with the Palestinian Mickey Mouse. The chant of the little jihadists drowns out the Disneyfied reverie:

"What is your most lofty aspiration? Death for the sake of Allah!"

Scene 2: I have a pet peeve. It goes beyond the antiwar indoctrination rampant in American schools. At the playground and at the mall, I see 5-, 6- and 7-year-olds walking around with pacifiers in their mouths. Kids old enough to feed and dress themselves. Kids old enough to figure out the remote control and cell phone. Standing upright, suckling on brightly colored binkies."


Great post. youngsters get along and would never consider hate directed at anyone unless they were instructed that way.

[ljb]

But bombs can kill believers of an ideology. And an ideology full of dead believers is for all practical intent and purposes itself dead!

Boxcar
Hitler had similiar ideas but, he used gas.
I can see it now. After a few years of nukes, only Boxy and Tom are left standing on earth. And then Tom says " Actually the Catholics were'nt all bad.
KABOOM !!!!
GOOD BYE EARTH, RIP.

[boxcar]

Great post. youngsters get along and would never consider hate directed at anyone unless they were instructed that way.

This has to be one of the most assinine statements I've ever read. Kids are still humans and not free from the sinful force of their own human nature. Just try leaving a kid uninstructed in what is right, and see what little angels they are! And even when so instructed, there is no iron-clad guarantee that he or she will do what is right.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Hitler had similiar ideas but, he used gas.
I can see it now. After a few years of nukes, only Boxy and Tom are left standing on earth. And then Tom says " Actually the Catholics were'nt all bad.
KABOOM !!!!
GOOD BYE EARTH, RIP.

You've got it backwards, as usual. Hitler "used gas", and in fact started WW11, to promote his insane ideology. I'm merely suggesting that we "use gas" to stop the mad Islamofacists (all the Hitler soul mates of the world) who only want to shove allah down the world's throat!

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Hate is taught to children. It doesn't arrive de novo.

[46zilzal]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/14/iraq.main/index.html

[GaryG]

Hate is taught to children. It doesn't arrive de novo.What the hell do you think arab parents teach their children? Allah is great....death to the US and Israel. Case closed.

[46zilzal]

What the hell do you think arab parents teach their children? Allah is great....death to the US and Israel.

You are using a specific example of a larger, worldwide phenomenon.

My mother's people were all from Georgia and Alabama. I learned first hand from my grandmother (one of the kindest, most open minded people I ever met) that hate is taught as there were multiple examples of racial profiling I saw there that were never around on the West coast. She, herself, lived her beliefs and I am proud to have learned her stance as a young person.

I spent a Summer in New York and saw the same seething, diffuse and irrational hatred for other ethnic groups there.

Those things, like the Muslims, do not arrive by themselves. Youngsters have to have examples to emulate.

[boxcar]

Hate is taught to children. It doesn't arrive de novo.

Let me give you a clue: Meanness, Anger, Spitefullness and even Hate (all this "good" stuff) will invetably follow in the wake of undisciplined children whenever others do not indulge their every desire. This is so because children are naturally self-centered, self-absorbed beings whose little minds think the entire universe revolves around them.

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Self centered ego (which most outgrow) does not translate to ethnic hate unless another guides toward it.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sgsm10377.doc.htm

[Greyfox]

In the book Gulliver's Travels, Gulliver goes to a land where :

"Big-endian and little-endian derive from Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels in which the Big Endians were a political faction that broke their eggs at the large end ("the primitive way") and rebelled against the Lilliputian King who required his subjects (the Little Endians) to break their eggs at the small end."

Jonathan Swift was a visionary. Part of what you see in Gulliver's Travels is going on in Iraq today. Aside, from the Kurds, there is a power struggle between the Shiites and the Sunnis.

What are they fighting over? Basically, it goes back to Mohammed.
After he died there were differences in the interpretation of the Qur'an.
It involves tribes, it involves genetics. These hatreds go back over 1000 years.
Both factions agree that there's an "egg" (one God). They don't agree on how to crack it, eat it , and cook it.
So in a power vacuum (fueled by oil, and that's not a pun) both sides are
at war. It's a civil war. That civil war is probably being stirred up by
the terrorist network of Al-Qaeda who don't need to fight the Yanks if they can get both groups doing it. Also Iran and others are tossing their two bits worth in and hoping the place will explode.)

I'm still for sealing the borders and letting them fight. Let them come up with a solution. Why have American lives on one side or another of their own ideologies. Sooner or later, I think that is going to happen or the U.S. is commited to staying 20 or 30 years keeping the peace.

I should also say that I found a very fascinating website that outlines the differences between Shiites and Sunnis and why they are fighting.
It outlines those differences under this heading:

An Outline Of The Differences Between The Sunnis and The Shi'ite in Matters of Faith And Doctrine

It's at http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia_vs_sunni.htm#1

[46zilzal]

The situation reminds me a lot of Frank Gorshin in the Star Trek episode "Let that be your last battlefied" where two beings are fighting to the death SIMPLY because one is black on the left and the other is black on the right side of their face.

[boxcar]

Self centered ego (which most outgrow) does not translate to ethnic hate unless another guides toward it.

Just like the leopard outgrows his spots or the Ehiopian outgrows the color of his skin, right? (You truly live in La La Land if you believe children merely "outgrow" their human nature.)

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

some groups deserve the hate based on their actions. They incite a reaction. Perfectly natural to react to them and their actions...........

[ljb]

You've got it backwards, as usual. Hitler "used gas", and in fact started WW11, to promote his insane ideology. I'm merely suggesting that we "use gas" to stop the mad Islamofacists (all the Hitler soul mates of the world) who only want to shove allah down the world's throat!

Boxcar
OK Boxy,
Who started this mess in Iraq and to promote what? You will most likely spin this, as expected, but those with capable thought process's will understand.

[boxcar]

OK Boxy,
Who started this mess in Iraq and to promote what? You will most likely spin this, as expected, but those with capable thought process's will understand.

If you had the capacity to look beyond the tip of your nose, the answer would be obvious to even you.

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Who started this mess in Iraq and to promote what? You will most likely spin this, as expected, but those with capable thought process's will understand.
The Dick and that moronic Rummy

[GaryG]

The Dick and that moronic RummyMore name calling...this is getting childish. I think someone tracked the number of your "rutabaga" posts and it was well over 100. Let's see something intelligent from up there...:eek:

[Tom]

Ljb....didn't you listen to my Gore links the other day?
OF course, SH started all this and Bush 41 was a fool for not going in and taking him out. Right out of Gore's lips. And, in Gore fashion, he goes on and on about it. Really interesting. And, as Lefty reported today, Hillary was first on the band wagon telling everyone she voted for the war when thenews was good.

So I guess as far as libs go, truth be damned, they will think what they want and use facts only when convenient.

So your question is moot.

[46zilzal]

More name calling...this is getting childish. I think someone tracked the number of your "rutabaga" posts and it was well over 100. Let's see something intelligent from up there...
what else should I call a vegetable?

[GaryG]

what else should I call a vegetable?I rest my case....:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Gibbon]

......devils advocate......

Israeli shell kills 4 in Gaza
14/06/2007 16:47

"Gaza City - Three children were among four Palestinians killed by an Israeli tank shell fired at the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah on Thursday, said medics.

The shelling, which was not immediately confirmed by Israel, came amid intensive fighting in the area between Fatah and Hamas, with the Islamists taking over a security compound in Rafah which lies on the border with Egypt."

Story is still immature and developing. Google news for more.

Perhaps this is why "they" hate us. Our blind support for Israel.






_________________________________
All nations want peace, but they want a peace that suits them. ~Admiral Sir John Fisher.

[ljb]

Ljb....didn't you listen to my Gore links the other day?
OF course, SH started all this and Bush 41 was a fool for not going in and taking him out. Right out of Gore's lips. And, in Gore fashion, he goes on and on about it. Really interesting. And, as Lefty reported today, Hillary was first on the band wagon telling everyone she voted for the war when thenews was good.

So I guess as far as libs go, truth be damned, they will think what they want and use facts only when convenient.

So your question is moot.
No I did not listen to your Gore links the other day. Try not to obfuscate the issue. Who started this mess in Iraq and for what supposed reason ? Used to be a President that said " the buck stops here". Too bad you fellows can't follow his example.

[JPinMaryland]

Harry Truman not exactly a shining example of that either.

[Tom]

We could yuse Harry right about now.
Face it, we have not a had a president fit to wash his jock strap since he left office. Clowns, perverts, dimwits, and morons......our list of presidents looks like the cast of Looney Tunes.

[Gibbon]

It is now accepted by the preponderance of the evidence Harry S. Truman saved tens of thousand of lives by using nukes. Japan vowed to on fight to the last man. Not to mention Japans' predatory occupation of various Asian nations.

Then Senator Truman declared on June 23, 1941, the day after Nazi Germany attacked the Soviet Union, "If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don't want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Neither of them thinks anything of their pledged word."







____________________________
Kill'em all and let God sort 'em out. ~ Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin

[PaceAdvantage]

what else should I call a vegetable?

A vegetable who continues to get most everything he wants...interesting...

Have you come up with a name for the Democrats currently in charge of Congress yet? They seem equally as deserving of one of your special monikers, if not more so.....

[hcap]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal
Hate is taught to children. It doesn't arrive de novo.
boxhead responding with sphincter spasmodically clenching....
Let me give you a clue: Meanness, Anger, Spitefullness and even Hate (all this "good" stuff) will invetably follow in the wake of undisciplined children whenever others do not indulge their every desire. This is so because children are naturally self-centered, self-absorbed beings whose little minds think the entire universe revolves around them.
What kind of children do you know? All little boxcars spouting prejudices and fire and brimstone? Isn't there a humbling feeling that overtakes your ivory tower judgmental righteousness when you experience the innocence of young children? I think that a young childs' universe includes fewer glorifications of self importance than the self-congratulatory extravaganzas of pride made by years of pulpit pounding and ovation.


Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven....KJV

[betchatoo]

hcap:
I'm not getting caught up in the same political argument for the 700th time on this site, but damn it, it was Oscar Hammerstein that wrote those lyrics, not Rogers. Show tunes are important!

[hcap]

Yes it was. Thank you.
But the tune ain't bad either :jump:

[boxcar]

boxhead responding with sphincter spasmodically clenching....
What kind of children do you know?

The ones who live in the real world. But then -- what would you know about reality? You need to get out more often, 'Cap. Even little shopping trips to your local supermarket might open your eyes once you observe the world around you -- providing you can pull your head out of your nether regions and lay off the KoolAid during your outings, of course.

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Johnathan huh? Mustache and sun glasses fit.

[hcap]

Shining example of why Iraq is F@cked Up..

In addition to Michele Malkins' tirade against mickey mouse and not training western babies to fight Muslim babies, this is why. People like this masquerading as "experts". Onward Christian Soldiers. How can we go wrong with God On Our Side??

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/wp-content/photos/0614_05.jpg

"In the penultimate chapter, titled “The Battle for the Soul of America“, Evans argues that the assassinations in the 1960s of President John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King Jr. “signaled the end of the age of innocence that had been enjoyed by the American people.”

The social revolution that followed “was a full frontal assault against traditional family values and an American culture steeped in the tenets of the Bible,” and was accompanied by a “lack of moral clarity.”

This “lack of moral clarity” resulted in “battle after battle [that] has slowly stripped Christians in America of their rights,” he says. “The American courts that espouse such movements as ‘gay rights,’ ‘abortion rights,’ and even ‘animal rights’ are now pursuing the right to be godless.”

[46zilzal]

more of this crap

[GaryG]

I believe I sense an impending rutabaga post.....he's winding it up pretty good now. Give it to em 46!

[Gibbon]

...How can we go wrong with God On Our Side....
This of course is precisely the mantra of Islamic armies for about the last 1,500 years. Beginning in year 750, with the conquest of the Mediterranean islands and until the first Christian crusade year 1095 - Islam conquered much of the “world.” It was not until 1200's Europe finally worked together to turn back the global goal of Islam domination.


...the end of the age of innocence that had been enjoyed by the American people.... Say what? When has America ever been innocent?

Slavery, War of 1812, Mexican-American war, Civil War, Spanish-American war, World War I, The Great Depression, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, etc....

You sure got an interesting definition of innocence. Unfortunately, the western powers failed to completely annihilate any remaining remnants of the Ottoman Empire and now 90 years later we are paying the price.





_________________________________
Kill'em all and let God sort 'em out. ~ Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin

[Tom]

You blaming all those thinkgs on Amercia????

I think your history is from a comic book.

[Greyfox]

Guilty?

Sure. And add The Boston Tea Party to that list.
(Maybe that's why Britain didn't endorse the war.):lol:

[Gibbon]

You blaming all those thinkgs on Amercia????
I think your history is from a comic book.

I don't understand. Blame for what? Not sure how you draw that conclusion?

All I said is America is not innocent as a some posters believe.
After all, we are all guilty of murdering 30 million children since Roe v. Wade.
Sobering thought for father day. Non of us are innocent.






____________________________________
Never raise your hand to your kids. It leaves your groin unprotected. ~ Red Buttons

[Gibbon]

Guilty?

Sure. And add The Boston Tea Party to that list.
(Maybe that's why Britain didn't endorse the war.)Right or wrong is not the issue.

My point was we all have the blood of our fellow man on our hands.
No adult human is innocent.

Come on fellows, lets not be naive here.

[Ivan]

It's easier for Idiots to point the finger and blame the NAZIS,COMMUNISTS,JAPS,and oh yes the "RADICAL" Muslims

The US is just as guilty of atrocities as any of the "Radicals" aka "Axis of Evils"

We just use Drones,F16'S,Stealth Fighters and ENOLA GAY to be RAD :D ical

Oh wait a minute...we are/were "Defending" ourselves???

What the hell did the whole city of Hiroshima do to us???

Last time I checked the 9-11 Hijackers were primarily (90%) SAUDI?

They operated in Europe and in the US and trained in Afghanistan

uhhhhhhhh......What are we doing in IRAQ again?

:rolleyes:

[Greyfox]

Right or wrong is not the issue.

My point was we all have the blood of our fellow man on our hands.
No adult human is innocent.


Of course. No adult human is innocent. But of what?
Today I jaywalked. Guilty. Today I swore at a motorist.
Guilty again.and on and on. I'm not an innocent.
Having said that, "Right or wrong" is always an issue, from a morality viewpoint.
And beg your pardon (which I don't really need), I have no blood of my fellow man on my hands.
I pray to God that I, or my children never will. (And yes I can think in the abstract.)
Having said that, does one leave to Caesar what Caesar thinks is his?
Not me.

[Greyfox]

It's easier for Idiots to point the finger and blame the NAZIS,COMMUNISTS,JAPS,and oh yes the "RADICAL" Muslims

The US is just as guilty of atrocities as any of the "Radicals" aka "Axis of Evils"

We just use Drones,F16'S,Stealth Fighters and ENOLA GAY to be RAD :D ical

Oh wait a minute...we are/were "Defending" ourselves???

What the hell did the whole city of Hiroshima do to us???

Last time I checked the 9-11 Hijackers were primarily (90%) SAUDI?

They operated in Europe and in the US and trained in Afghanistan

uhhhhhhhh......What are we doing in IRAQ again?

:rolleyes:

Ivan ????
Sleepless in Seattle?
The Enigma was a machine used to decipher messages in the Second World War.
I need one to understand what message you are sending.
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

[Gibbon]

Of course. No adult human is innocent. But of what.......I can think in the abstract..... Fox thank you for your insights. Evidently, Ivan is a tortured soul.

So lets define our terms....

Innocence;
1. free from moral wrong; without sin; pure: as in innocent children
2.not causing physical or moral injury; harmless: as in innocent fun.
3.uninformed or unaware; as in ignorant.
4.lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness
5.lacking or deprived of something


In all of the above America, indeed no one person or nation is Innocent. Expect possibly Ivan.





___________________________________
The innocent is the person who explains nothing” ~ Albert Camus

[Gibbon]

The US is just as guilty of atrocities......

...of murdering 30 million children since Roe v. Wade.
Sobering thought for father day.....

O'no there are only saints in America.








__________________________________
Sin is not hurtful because it is forbidden, but it is forbidden because it is hurtful ~ Benjamin Franklin

[Greyfox]

Gibbon,

I seldom read the very bottom of the page notes that posters have.
Often they are credits or adverts etc.
But credit to where credit is due. I've just re-read yours. Good stuff.
I really cherish some of those bottom liners. Well done. :jump:

[Ivan]

Ivan ????
Sleepless in Seattle?
The Enigma was a machine used to decipher messages in the Second World War.
I need one to understand what message you are sending.
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

Greyfox????

Sleepless wherever you are?

I never used the word ENIGMA and never suggested it.

Can you read?

:cool:

[PaceAdvantage]

I never used the word ENIGMA and never suggested it.

Can you read?

:cool:

Can you?

Please, folks, step it up a notch in the content department....

[Greyfox]

Greyfox????

Sleepless wherever you are?

I never used the word ENIGMA and never suggested it.

Can you read?

:cool:

I'm blind to what you are sending. Maybe try Braille. Otherwise check the site I sent about cryptics.

[Ivan]

Fox thank you for your insights. Evidently, Ivan is a tortured soul.

So lets define our terms....

Innocence;
1. free from moral wrong; without sin; pure: as in innocent children
2.not causing physical or moral injury; harmless: as in innocent fun.
3.uninformed or unaware; as in ignorant.
4.lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness
5.lacking or deprived of something


In all of the above America, indeed no one person or nation is Innocent. Expect possibly Ivan.





___________________________________
The innocent is the person who explains nothing” ~ Albert Camus


I state FACTS and now I'm a Tortured soul?

Gibbon you have the comprehension of a 3 year old.

:D

[Ivan]

I'm blind to what you are sending. Maybe try Braille. Otherwise check the site I sent about cryptics.


Blind to what I am sending?

I think your just really ignorant and thats making you blind or unable to Comprehend like your buddy Gibbon

My message was simple

The US Gov are not saints never have been

Thats all

What was so confusing to you?

[Greyfox]

Can you?

Please, folks, step it up a notch in the content department....

Okay. I will.
How big can a city the size of Baghdad be?
The latest news is:

BAGHDAD (AP) - Security forces in Baghdad have full control in only 40 percent of the city five months into the pacification campaign, a top American general said Saturday as U.S. troops (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22U.S.+troops%22&sid=breitbart.com) began an offensive against two al-Qaida strongholds on the capital's southern outskirts.

So there. After years in the country 60 % of a city is basically, not under control yet???? Only 40 %. ???:lol:
And that's just the city of Baghdad where most of the energy has been
focussed. What about the thousands of square miles around it?

My suggested solution has been from the start:
The U.S. should seal the borders.
It is time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate and bat.

The U.S. won the war. It's over.
Now there is a different war. Just no one in administration is admitting it.
It's their civil war. Not ours.
Let them massacre each other if they want.
Deal with them after they've finished.

So there P.A.
You said step up the content.
You're in a better position than I am to do that.
There aren't any other posters on any thread who are offering solutions.
Why don't you challenge them to that?
All you do is let them bitch, bitch , bitch.
Sorry. But, if there's a content problem, go look in the mirror.
Let's get some solutions going. (Mine may not be right. But at least it's a suggestion.)

[Ivan]

Okay. I will.
How big can a city the size of Baghdad be?
The latest news is:

BAGHDAD (AP) - Security forces in Baghdad have full control in only 40 percent of the city five months into the pacification campaign, a top American general said Saturday as U.S. troops (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22U.S.+troops%22&sid=breitbart.com) began an offensive against two al-Qaida strongholds on the capital's southern outskirts.

So there. After years in the country 60 % of a city is basically, not under control yet???? Only 40 %. ???:lol:
And that's just the city of Baghdad where most of the energy has been
focussed. What about the thousands of square miles around it?

My suggested solution has been from the start:
The U.S. should seal the borders.
It is time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate and bat.

The U.S. won the war. It's over.
Now there is a different war. Just no one in administration is admitting it.
It's their civil war. Not ours.
Let them massacre each other if they want.
Deal with them after they've finished.

So there P.A.
You said step up the content.
You're in a better position than I am to do that.
There aren't any other posters on any thread who are offering solutions.
Why don't you challenge them to that?
All you do is let them bitch, bitch , bitch.
Sorry. But, if there's a content problem, go look in the mirror.
Let's get some solutions going. (Mine may not be right. But at least it's a suggestion.)



The ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the root issue behind all of these problems

I have Jewish Friends and I have Arab friends

I have listened to both sides

The solution is NOT sealing a border

The solution is not in Iraq

I don't see HOW you can convince either the Jews or Arabs that the land they truly believe belongs to them is NOT THEIRS

It's been thousands of years and the fighting is still going on

This is History

not an opinion from a "Tortured Soul" :D

[PaceAdvantage]

I have Jewish Friends and I have Arab friends

You have Jewish friends living in Israel and Arab friends living in the Palestinian territories?

[Greyfox]

The ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the root issue behind all of these problems



The Israeli - Palestinian conflict is a major issue.
The United Nations set Israel up as a country.
Let the United Nations solve that one.
The U.S. doesn't have to resolve every conflict on the planet.

In the meanwhile, this thread was dealing with the issues in Iraq.
I say, recognize the current conflict in Iraq for what it is:
A Civil War. Seal the borders and let the Iraqi's solve it.
They would have to take care of Al Qaeda.
They would have to settle their differences with one another somehow.
Our support would be to stop the influx of mercenaries from other
countrys and the inflow of weaponry from other countrys as well.

[Tom]

:lol: Seal the border?????

We can't even do that HERE, with no war going on.
What is needed in Iraq is a "guest insurgent" program, to bomb the tagets that Iraqis will not bomb.

Maybe we should just come home and wait here from them to come for us. Lot chepaer that way.

[Greyfox]

:lol: Seal the border?????

We can't even do that HERE, with no war going on.
.

The border here can be sealed. The fact that it isn't being sealed is another story based on political/economic motives.

[Tom]

That was my point. The war over there could be won too.
What do BOTH faillure have in common?


George W Bush and his unwillingness to git r done.

[Greyfox]

Mikhail Gorbachev, IMO, was the most forward thinking Soviet leader, of the 20 th century. Today, he has penned a piece that offers the opinion:

"Developing a strategy to withdraw troops is the only real aid Bush can give Iraq, ex-Soviet leader says"

Otherwise he sees "no light at the end of the tunnel."

He states:
"The key to understanding the situation – as it appears today and as it appeared one, two or three years ago, indeed as it appeared from Day One of the invasion – is simple. Iraq is occupied by U.S. forces.

That fact hasn't been changed by Iraq's creation of a parliament, the election of a new government or the establishment of relative quiet in some parts of the country. Millions of Iraqis perceive the occupation as a national humiliation. That fuels sectarian conflicts, civil strife and continuing instability."

Gorbachev's full article is at :
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/225995


Gorbachev is an independent thinker. He adds weight to those on this board that have suggested withdrawing from Iraq.

[robert99]

Mikhail Gorbachev, IMO, was the most forward thinking Soviet leader, of the 20 th century. Today, he has penned a piece that offers the opinion:

"Developing a strategy to withdraw troops is the only real aid Bush can give Iraq, ex-Soviet leader says"

Otherwise he sees "no light at the end of the tunnel."

He states:
"The key to understanding the situation – as it appears today and as it appeared one, two or three years ago, indeed as it appeared from Day One of the invasion – is simple. Iraq is occupied by U.S. forces.

That fact hasn't been changed by Iraq's creation of a parliament, the election of a new government or the establishment of relative quiet in some parts of the country. Millions of Iraqis perceive the occupation as a national humiliation. That fuels sectarian conflicts, civil strife and continuing instability."

Gorbachev's full article is at :
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/225995


Gorbachev is an independent thinker. He adds weight to those on this board that have suggested withdrawing from Iraq.

Tony Blair is being reported by senior level staff this week as having insisted pre-war for UK to join in that there was a post invasion plan (the normal basics -immediately seal borders, take over the Iraqi army to ensure security, rebuild the country and get men employed etc) and George Bush assured him that there was one. Cheny and Rumsfeld apparently knew better and over-ruled George Bush. "It would be all over in a few weeks and the Iraquis would love us - so no such plan needed, stupid". Once TB informed of no plan, GB said UK could commit to some other role than supply troops. TB did not take up the offer and UK Parliament was lied to in that a plan existed and had been fully worked out. TB was reported as being totally distraught and on the point of resigning when no-one could work out what the hell USA was up to - not immediately sealing the borders with unfriendly states, disbanding the Iraqi army, not protecting the oil lines, not controlling the cities under military law, thousands of Iraqi men out of work, USA only contractors not getting power and water supplies back running quickly etc.

Withdrawal after 4 years of sacrifice would be humiliation on a worse scale than Vietnam. It would also give carte blanche to all the other tinpot dictators and evil fanatics that the West might never again intervene with armed humanitarian missions. Russia and China may then take over that role. It is a lose -lose situation.

[Ivan]

You have Jewish friends living in Israel and Arab friends living in the Palestinian territories?

I have Jewish friends who left Israel and Arab friends who left the region because of this problem and the violence it has caused.

[Greyfox]

Withdrawal after 4 years of sacrifice would be humiliation on a worse scale than Vietnam. It would also give carte blanche to all the other tinpot dictators and evil fanatics that the West might never again intervene with armed humanitarian missions. Russia and China may then take over that role. It is a lose -lose situation.

If true, as to what you are saying, what a "feckin mess."
Withdrawal after four years of sacrifice would never be a humiliation, if indeed that is the right thing to do. This war has nothing,zero, nil to do with Viet Nam.

There is now a Civil War,
That's their problem.

The U.S. Army has been very patient in trying to train their troops.
They either get it or the don't.
The bottom line now is, seal the borders...let their Govt. solve the conflict.

[46zilzal]

The clowns at the helm made the same mistakes as Vietnam according to MacNamara and he should know.

[robert99]

If true, as to what you are saying, what a "feckin mess."
Withdrawal after four years of sacrifice would never be a humiliation, if indeed that is the right thing to do. This war has nothing,zero, nil to do with Viet Nam.

There is now a Civil War,
That's their problem.

The U.S. Army has been very patient in trying to train their troops.
They either get it or the don't.
The bottom line now is, seal the borders...let their Govt. solve the conflict.

It could be the right thing to do in the military sense but not in the political sense. USA is reckoned as the world super-power and several middle eastern countries are friendly only if USA is actually capable and seen to be capable of protecting them. USA set the post war strategy and allowed the present "civil war" to ignite. USA imposed a sham democracy on a country whose culture is to want only to be led by a strong dictator - once in place the conflict ends. Iraq does not now have a government that has the capacity to govern anything let alone solve conflict. The link with Vietnam is if the USA military machine slinks off again after promising so much but leaving a horrendous unfinished mess behind and the underdog claiming victory.

[Greyfox]

Iraq does not now have a government that has the capacity to govern anything let alone solve conflict. .

You are probably correct.
But how long do we have to babysit this country? Could be a 50 year plan?