Secretariat

[cnollfan]

Thanks for posting Secretariat's Belmont link. Very cool.

[46zilzal]

Funny but I have an old "tip sheet" from June 9th 1973 Belmont and Big Red wasn't even their best bet of the day. Wasn't Forego either but a Mr. Prospector three year old sprinter whose name I can't recall.

Hind sight is twenty twenty...

[ezrabrooks]

Funny but I have an old "tip sheet" from June 9th 1973 Belmont and Big Red wasn't even their best bet of the day. Wasn't Forego either but a Mr. Prospector three year old sprinter whose name I can't recall.

Hind sight is twenty twenty...

A 3yo Mr. Prospector in 1973? When did Mr. Prospector go to Stud?

Ez

[OTM Al]

Mr P was 3 that year. Look again as it was probably him!

[46zilzal]

A 3yo Mr. Prospector in 1973? When did Mr. Prospector go to Stud?


Woops, related to him is what I meant..

[wolsons]

Here's a YouTube link to a great video put together, of the Secretariat Belmont with the Chic Anderson call, and the theme music from the movie "Rudy" - one of the best reasons I've seen so far to justify the existence of YouTube - turn your speakers up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CX9SIwYVcg&mode=related&search=

[chickenhead]

that was great, thanks.

[chickenhead]

just watched them all, God I wish I was around for these live. That preakness move is insane. No horse will ever take all three with as much style as Secretariat.

[46zilzal]

34 years to the day: his Belmont was June 9, 1973.

I was priveleged to have TWO audiences with him in 85 and 89. Standing that close to perfection is an event in itself.

I caught him on tape, clowning in his stall, pawing the ground begging for peppermints.

[Tom]

That was awesome.
Git' r done.

[46zilzal]

here's the program.

[Tom]

Thanks for the page, 46...I'm adding it to the cover of my notebook.

[bigmack]

This buckaroo has some interesting Sec & related items:

http://www.secondrunning.com/Secretariat%20Races.htm

[Edward DeVere]

That preakness move is insane. No horse will ever take all three with as much style as Secretariat.

The Preakness move was more than insane; it was impossible. In those days, horses simply did not make that move on the first turn at Pimlico and live to tell the tale.

In my mind, Secretariat's Preakness was every bit as astonishing as his Belmont. (And his Belmont was pretty damn astonishing.)

Then he went on to demolish the best older turf horses in North America.

[46zilzal]

The Preakness move was more than insane; it was impossible. In those days, horses simply did not make that move on the first turn at Pimlico and live to tell the tale.

In my mind, Secretariat's Preakness was every bit as astonishing as his Belmont.

TO THIS DAY, and I have seen thousands & thousands of races since 1965, I have NEVER witnessed a clubhouse turn move of such magnitude and power, and the clincher, Turcotte NEVER ASKED HIM!

[bigmack]

It was almost as if he said; You call that a pace? I'll show you a pace, just try and keep up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEOlWDz2KBw

[PaceAdvantage]

What a sick move....and do you see the way he's leaning into the turn as they enter the stretch? And that STRIDE! He really was a tremendous machine....

[Tom]

It was like in the Preakness, he said "See my PACE?"
And then in the Belmont, he said,"See my clASS!" :lol:

There has been nothing like him since. I think Forgo came cloesest.

[Hank]

Awesome!!! Funny thing though I pulled up the PP for that race, to time that move, and it shows Sec on the lead at all four calls????? He clearly is not leading first call.interesting

[ryesteve]

Why do all these Secretariat videos look like newsreels from the 30's? They sure didn't look like that at the time. There must be high quality archives someplace. I wish the Museum in Saratoga would start selling DVDs of this stuff.

[DanG]

My favorite animal and at the risk of committing a sacrilegious act…

Concerning his near “bolt” in the Preakness…If that move left him wanting late, people would be all over Turcotte for “moving too soon” ala Pino in the Preakness ‘ Elliott in the Belmont etc…

Turcotte and Chenery were later quoted as saying that move was the animals idea and not due to rider encouragement. I think there is a lesson in that considering the lambasting a couple riders have taken in this years TC IMHO.

(Both at their best)…the only animal who could run with big red since ‘73 is Spectacular Bid IMHO. His runs through the Strub series were just sick.

BTW: I’ll bet I wasn’t the only one who made the drive to the big A to see Secretariat in his “retirement” gallop. I’m thankful my brother talked me into that trip, it was memorable. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

(Both at their best)…the only animal who could run with big red since ‘73 is Spectacular Bid IMHO. His runs through the Strub series were just sick.


We may never have seen Red's best as he was improving race to race as a THREE year old.

Affirmed could have run with him, as he did to defeat Bid. How long before he pulled up exhausted is another story.

[DanG]

Affirmed could have run with him, as he did to defeat Bid. How long before he pulled up exhausted is another story.
You mean when Bid was a 3yo and Affirmed was 4?…After Affirmed had ducked him in the Marlboro? :rolleyes:

The 'Bid hit a dimension at 4yo’s that would have crushed Affirmed on his best day IMHO.

Now…My apologies to Big red…if anyone deserves their own thread, it’s him.

[46zilzal]

You mean when Bid was a 3yo and Affirmed was 4?…After Affirmed had ducked him in the Marlboro?
As I recall the weight assignment in that race was the reason according to Barrera, and he is the one who decided.

Bid had a big Achilles heel: he couldn't look another in the eye for long and pass him. I am biased against him as his connections were clowns. I mentioned that while at Claiborne and the grooms quipped back : You are just NOW figuring that out??? I can hear old Buddy Delp screaming now for another chance at that little chestnut who was tougher than a 5 cent steak.

[46zilzal]

A great print of him my late wife bought for me.

[DanG]

As I recall the weight assignment in that race was the reason according to Barrera, and he is the one who decided.

Bid had a big Achilles heel: he couldn't look another in the eye for long and pass him. I am biased against him as his connections were clowns. I mentioned that while at Claiborne and the grooms quipped back : You are just NOW figuring that out??? I can hear old Buddy Delp screaming now for another chance at that little chestnut who was tougher than a 5 cent steak.
You’re biased against the animal because he was trained by Rip Taylor (may he R.I.P) and ridden by Brother Theodore before the Shoe got on him???

That’s all the more reason to credit the animal in my book.

You would argue with a sign post my friend, but do me a favor…e-mail Randy Moss and tell him how much better Affirmed was than The ‘Bid. Randy rates the ‘Bid faster than ANY horse since 1970 for what its worth…

OK…off to the races…Enjoy the long weekend everyone… :ThmbUp:

[46zilzal]

You’re biased against the animal because he was trained by Rip Taylor (may he R.I.P) and ridden by Brother Theodore before the Shoe got on him???


No the Meyerhoff's. They were the "clowns" the grooms noticed as well.

Randy Moss is whom? a football player with a big mouth is the only one I would credit that title to. You don't mean the pace character??? PLEASE

[DanG]

A great print of him my late wife bought for me.
Just beautiful…:ThmbUp:

My sincere condolences on your wife passing 46…

[46zilzal]

Just beautiful…:ThmbUp:

My sincere condolences on your wife passing 46…
It is easier to look at these days. February 23rd is an easier day to get through now. Not a good month as my dad passed on February 13th.

[DanG]

No the Meyerhoff's. They were the "clowns" the grooms noticed as well.

Randy Moss is whom? a football player with a big mouth is the only one I would credit that title to. You don't mean the pace character??? PLEASE

Ronny Franklin sure did his part…A true incompetent IMHO. Cordero thought so to when he punched his lights out prior to the Belmont.

With the second part of your ignorant statement. I bid you farewell and apologize to the board for the non-Secretariat rant of the previous posts.

Enjoy!!! :jump:

[Cratos]

You mean when Bid was a 3yo and Affirmed was 4?…After Affirmed had ducked him in the Marlboro? :rolleyes:

The 'Bid hit a dimension at 4yo’s that would have crushed Affirmed on his best day IMHO.

Now…My apologies to Big red…if anyone deserves their own thread, it’s him.

Affirmed never ducked any horse at anytime and I am very glad that “it’s your opinion” that “the 'Bid hit a dimension at 4yo’s that would have crushed Affirmed on his best day IMHO.”

Bid at four never ran consistently against the caliber of horses that Affirmed (Seattle Slew, Exceller, Alydar, etc.) faced during his career. Spectacular Bid was a very good horse if not a great race horse, but to put him above Affirmed is living in the twilight zone.

I don’t know if you were there in 1980 to see the Bid run, but at 4yo he ran nine times with Flying Paster being his chief nemesis in four of his wins and Glorious Song a mare in another. Again, the Bid was a very good racehorse, but by any measure and at any age Affirmed was better.

[Cratos]

What a sick move....and do you see the way he's leaning into the turn as they enter the stretch? And that STRIDE! He really was a tremendous machine....


Big Red’s move in the 1973 Preakness was awesome to say the least, but his move in the initial Marlboro Cup in 1973 race against good older horses like his stable mate, Riva Ridge and the big cat, Cougar II probably left the Belmont crowd bedazzled with amazement in that a 3yo could be so dominant over an elite field of older horses while giving them scale weight.

[46zilzal]

Dr. Pratt, the MIT engineering professor who studies the biomechanics of gait, noted that race in particular as being as close to a perfect stride as a horse can get. This is in the documentary A Magical Way of Going.

He noted how little lost motion the big Red machine put out in passing Riva Ridge.

[GaryG]

I don’t know if you were there in 1980 to see the Bid run, but at 4yo he ran nine times with Flying Paster being his chief nemesis in four of his wins and Glorious Song a mare in another. Again, the Bid was a very good racehorse, but by any measure and at any age Affirmed was better.I don't have the time too look up the records but I can't recall him beating anyone else of note that year. I would not place him above any of the TC winners. A very good horse, but not "one of the ones". My opinion of course.

[46zilzal]

1976 SPECTACULAR BID,c,Bold Bidder 3 30 26 2 1 2,781,608 115.35
DP = 9-14-18-3-0 DI = 2.67 CD = 0.66
At 2 Won Champagne S. -G1 (125,000), Young America S. (125,000), Heritage
S. -G2 (100,000), Laurel Futurity -G1 (75,000), World's Playground S.
-G3 (75,000), 2nd Dover S. (30,000)
At 3 Won Meadowlands Cup S. -G2 (350,000), Marlboro Cup H. -G1 (300,000),
Florida Derby -G1 (200,000), Kentucky Derby -G1 (200,000), Preakness
S. -G1 (200,000), Blue Grass S. -G1 (100,000), Flamingo S. -G1
(100,000), Fountain Of Youth S. -G3 (50,000), Hutcheson S. (25,000),
2nd Jockey Club Gold Cup S. -G1 (350,000), 3rd Belmont S. -G1
(200,000)
At 4 Won Santa Anita H. -G1 (300,000), Californian S. -G1 (300,000), Amory
L. Haskell H. -G1 (250,000), Charles H. Strub S. -G1 (200,000),
Woodward S. -G1 (200,000), Mervyn Leroy H. -G2 (150,000), Washington
Park H. -G3 (125,000), San Fernando S. -G2 (100,000), Malibu S. -G2
(75,000)

[DanG]

Affirmed never ducked any horse at anytime and I am very glad that “it’s your opinion” that “the 'Bid hit a dimension at 4yo’s that would have crushed Affirmed on his best day IMHO.”

Bid at four never ran consistently against the caliber of horses that Affirmed (Seattle Slew, Exceller, Alydar, etc.) faced during his career. Spectacular Bid was a very good horse if not a great race horse, but to put him above Affirmed is living in the twilight zone.

I don’t know if you were there in 1980 to see the Bid run, but at 4yo he ran nine times with Flying Paster being his chief nemesis in four of his wins and Glorious Song a mare in another. Again, the Bid was a very good racehorse, but by any measure and at any age Affirmed was better.
Of course it’s “my opinion”, just as your stating yours.

I could not possibly disagree more, but that’s one of the great strengths of our game. I will never understand the argument of judging / criticizing an animal because of who happened to be born in their genration. Sham didn’t exactly go on to rock the world after Big Red blew him away and I would never judge Red on that basis.

The fact that you hesitated before using the word “great” with Spectacular Bid frankly tells me volumes.

Spectacular Bid…[Undefeated from 7f to 10f lifetime]


Track Records:





1978 - Pimlico record, 5 1/2 furlongs, 1:04.2 (tied)
1978 - Laurel record, 8 1/2 furlongs, 1:41.6
1979 - Delaware Park record, 8 1/2 furlongs, 1:41.6
1979 - Meadowlands record, 10 furlongs, 2:01.2
1980 - Santa Anita record, 7 furlongs, 1:20
1980 - American record, any track, 10 furlongs, Santa Anita, 1:57.8 (still stands)
1980 - Hollywood Park record, 9 furlongs, 1:45.8
1980 - Arlington Park, 9 furlongs, 1:46.2
Eclipse Awards:



1978 - Champion 2-year-old Colt
1979 - Champion 3-year-old Colt
1980 - Horse of the Year
1980 - Champion Older Horse
Brilliant racehorse and one of the greatest in history IMHO.

Enjoy your weekend. I will be spending the rest of mine in The 'Twilight Zone as you call it. ;)

BTW…Yes I was blessed to see both run in person and yes Affirmed did duck the Marlboro with the trainer sighting the weight allowance.

My 3rd apology to Big Red and Cnollfan for treading on his Big Red thread. :blush:

[46zilzal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=berN2tnAlkk

evidence of toughness that was shown over and over. If ever an animal could paraphrase through action what they could have said, this guy would have shouted: "you're not getting by me."

That toughness is something you cannot put into a pace figure.

[46zilzal]

I was honored to have met Laz Barrera in the paddock at Anita and had a photo of he with Affirmed after the Jockey Club Gold Cup win. I asked "Would you do me the honor of signing a photo of one of your BETTER horses?" He laughed and said :"I'll take a barn full of them like he was."

[Overlay]

Awesome!!! Funny thing though I pulled up the PP for that race, to time that move, and it shows Sec on the lead at all four calls????? He clearly is not leading first call.interesting

The half-mile (first call) was run in :48-1/5. Even though Secretariat was running last as they passed the stands right after the start, with the move he made around the turn, he was in front by that time.

[DanG]

46ZZZ,

I tried to answer your statement where you questioned my facts on the Bid being undefeated from 7-10f…I assume you deleted it, because my answer failed to post.

His only losses were at 5.5f, 6f and 12f twice.

Love Affirmed…a genuine racehorse in everyway, I just have my beliefs as you have yours. What a boring world if we all agree. (and what short prices!) :D

OK…That’s all I have on this subject…Much too subjective and life is too short to keep going back and forth… :eek:

[Cratos]

Of course it’s “my opinion”, just as your stating yours.

I could not possibly disagree more, but that’s one of the great strengths of our game. I will never understand the argument of judging / criticizing an animal because of who happened to be born in their genration. Sham didn’t exactly go on to rock the world after Big Red blew him away and I would never judge Red on that basis.

The fact that you hesitated before using the word “great” with Spectacular Bid frankly tells me volumes.

Spectacular Bid…[Undefeated from 7f to 10f lifetime]


Track Records:





1978 - Pimlico record, 5 1/2 furlongs, 1:04.2 (tied)
1978 - Laurel record, 8 1/2 furlongs, 1:41.6
1979 - Delaware Park record, 8 1/2 furlongs, 1:41.6
1979 - Meadowlands record, 10 furlongs, 2:01.2
1980 - Santa Anita record, 7 furlongs, 1:20
1980 - American record, any track, 10 furlongs, Santa Anita, 1:57.8 (still stands)
1980 - Hollywood Park record, 9 furlongs, 1:45.8
1980 - Arlington Park, 9 furlongs, 1:46.2
Eclipse Awards:



1978 - Champion 2-year-old Colt
1979 - Champion 3-year-old Colt
1980 - Horse of the Year
1980 - Champion Older Horse
Brilliant racehorse and one of the greatest in history IMHO.

Enjoy your weekend. I will be spending the rest of mine in The 'Twilight Zone as you call it. ;)

BTW…Yes I was blessed to see both run in person and yes Affirmed did duck the Marlboro with the trainer sighting the weight allowance.

My 3rd apology to Big Red and Cnollfan for treading on his Big Red thread. :blush:

I realized it was your opinion and I respect that, but on the subject of “greatness” I learned from the late Eric Sevaried of CBS News that the media makes celebrity and time makes greatness.

Incidentally, I also had the pleasure to watch both Spectacular Bid and Affirmed run. Additionally, the Affirmed-Alydar Kentucky Derby was my first derby in person and I have never missed one since then.

Lastly, the reason that the horses that a horse competes against are important is simply one word: CLASS. Many horses run fast times, but the question is always “Can it run that time in top class?

Have nice weekend

[DanG]

Lastly, the reason that the horses that a horse competes against are important is simply one word: CLASS. Many horses run fast times, but the question is always “Can it run that time in top class?

Have nice weekend
All valid points Cratos, because there your own and I respect them.

The point of “Class” I find interesting.

If an animal is born in a year without a horse of equal ability, all he can do is run against those who dare to line up against them and vs. the clock. Because an animal is born in a more ‘contentious year, that doesn’t necessarily define class / or their lack of it in my eyes.

This thread is about Big Red and I consider him a very good example.




Most of his wins were by large margins.
His legend is so commanding we have to remind ourselves he lost 5 times.
The horses he defeated for the most part were not dominating runners.
Yet…Very few among us would question Red’s “Class”.

”Who has she beaten?” was echoed this year concerning Rags to Riches…

Of course…we are discussing the exceptional animals here.

One of my proudest programming accomplishments was to come up with a ‘Degree of Difficulty rating that has worked very well. For the majority of animals I couldn’t agree more…everything increases exponentially with pace / fld size / bumping / short indiscernible bursts of speed / determination etc…but when I see an animal jumping out of their skin like Rags did at SA winning her first grade one and then The Bid as a 4yo…I can only judge them on their performance because they have broken through what our "normal" perceptions of the breed are.

[toetoe]

Lazaro Barrera developed a permanent crick in his neck from ducking. It was the old Gary Jones/Bobby Frankel cry: "Too much weight !!! :jump: :( " Affirmed ducked the first scheduled confrontation with SB, then beat him gamely.

[RXB]

Affirmed at age 4 beat 3YO Spectacular Bid by just 3/4 length. How that confirms that Affirmed was the superior horse is beyond me. How did it go for 3YO Affirmed the year previously, versus 4YO Seattle Slew? (Answer: worse.)

Spectacular Bid won one race in a walkover, one race as a 2YO by a neck, one by 1 1/2 lengths and one by 1 3/4 lengths. The other 22 victories came by margins of 2 3/4 lengths or greater. It's true that he never defeated a great horse but he was tin-canning his opposition almost every race, and running super times. Remove two losses at short distances in his first four races, and his only remaining losses were the safety-pin Belmont (finishing behind horses that he waxed multiple times before/after) and a relatively narrow defeat as a 3YO against a truly great 4YO champion.