Harness Racing would be more exciting if run at just a half mile

[loveracing]

I feel harness racing would be much more exciting if it was run for just a half mile instead of a full mile. The drivers couldn't just sit on the rail all day, like they do in a mile long race. They would have to make quicker and better decisions. A horse could go 3 wide and not worry about it since it would be a shorter race. The horses would have more energy down the stretch. Harness racing is declining, and needs something to start getting it back on track. This seems to be a good starting point, it would make for better racing. Also lower takeouts don't hurt.

[SMOO]

Replace the drivers with trained monkeys and hang a bunch of bananas over the finish line.

[harcapper]

1/2 mile racing would likely be a complete bore.

Most decent SB's can brush a half mile so you remove all strategy from the mix. I believe it would be chalk city and that would drive even more handicappers from the game.

Part of the allure for those that follow the game seriously is to be able to identify a race that either sets up too fast or has the possibility to setup up pedestrian.

Finding the "diamond in the ruff" horse that will be in the right spot when it happens is what keeps a capper coming back.

[loveracing]

If most standardbreds can brush a half mile, you will have wide open races, that would make it more exciting. It would cut down on short priced favorites. What is so great about catching a short priced favorite, it just means everyone had it. Give me a 5-1 shot any day of the week.

[loveracing]

I love that reply. lol

[harcapper]

loveracing,

With the assumption that a SB can sprint a 1/2 mile, please explain how the longshots will be winning?

Not sure if you are aware but harness racing did have some sprint races back in the late 60's and early 70's and they were far more formful then mile racing is. Exciting to watch but the prices were too often short.

It's hard enough as it is to find a price horse in a harness race going a mile with all of the factors that come into play when racing at the distance.

A big part of being a successful harness capper is being able to identify how the race will setup. That beats the chalk far more often then a locked in trip does.

Before I get into anymore detail, are you a true harness fan that has studied the game or are you a t-bred fan with a theory?


If most standardbreds can brush a half mile, you will have wide open races, that would make it more exciting. It would cut down on short priced favorites. What is so great about catching a short priced favorite, it just means everyone had it. Give me a 5-1 shot any day of the week.

[wilderness]

Harness racing has held a vareity of distances for numerous reason before settling on the standard mile.

An insight into far too many various records provides the reason:
http://www.mi-harness.com/trks/1956Records.html

In the 70's Windsor Raceway and other tracks held half or aprroximate races for lower class horses.
The problem in general is that this type of competion gets horses aggresively "on the bit". Today we have "horses on the bit" with much speed and without the stamina of distance (also apparent today in T-Breds) or multiple heats.
Once a horse gets on the bit, it can be a nightmare to handle or rate the horse and in many instances the aggresiveness is never able to be changed from the horse's character with the result being a quiiter.

In the late 40's and early 50's (and even before then) the Class groups of horses, racing each year was determined by their lifetime mark without allowances for current condition.
The controversey was that horses would win heats however, not the overall race, thus not changing their records.
Another solution was multiple heats at different distances (other than a mile). One popular set was 9/16's and then 1-1/16 or 1-1/8 for the second heat.

Most every distance imagineable has been attempted in harness racing.

Montreal has some up and coming large fields with odd distances:

Horses To Put Stamina To The Test
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/iss0607/hippmonadvance0601.html
June 1, 2007

In celebration of Hippodrome de Montreal's 100th anniversary, the track will present a special distance race covering two miles and five-eighths as part of Sunday afternoon's Prix du Quebec program.

While rare now in North America, distance races were common in horse racing at the turn of the century. Hippodrome de Quebec's famous five-mile race has been presented annually since 1910.

Thirteen horses have been entered for the marathon, the first race on Sunday's card, which has an earlier starting time of 1:00 p.m.

The track handicapper has tabbed Frostys Paycheck as the favourite, but there will be plenty of support for Lifes Thrills, a veteran router and 2001 winner, in record time, of the five-mile race in Quebec.

To see Sunday's entries at Hippodrome de Montreal, click here
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/entries/data/ehmssu.html

(Attractions Hippiques)
end of quote

As does one of the Ontario tracks. I believe Georgian Downs, however my recollection may be playing tricks on me.

[wilderness]

My apologies in providing the incorrect link previously.

Correct link for Records:
http://www.mi-harness.net/trks/1956Records.html

[loveracing]

I have played harness races for over 20 years, and a shortened race gives more horse's a chance to win the race. It will make for better odds, and the object of the game is to make money. 3/5 shots just don't cover it.

[wilderness]

I have played harness races for over 20 years, and a shortened race gives more horse's a chance to win the race. It will make for better odds, and the object of the game is to make money. 3/5 shots just don't cover it.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

That's the only way that trainers, owners, tracks, organizations (both horsemen and otherwise) would be able to sign your proposal?

The other folks that are capable of reading, writing and adding would simply cast a NAY!

[loveracing]

Quarter Horse racing is exciting, 6 furlong sprints are exciting for thoroughbreds, 4 furlong racing would be exciting and money making for harness racing.

[wilderness]

Quarter Horse racing is exciting, 6 furlong sprints are exciting for thoroughbreds, 4 furlong racing would be exciting and money making for harness racing.

Quarter horses have jockeys, not drivers and bikes.

I'd suggest a trip to somebody's farm and a chance to jog a horse in a cart (not a race bike) and at a speed more than twice as slow as an actual race.
At least then you'd have an understanding of the horse and driver as well as getting the horse to do what you desire and dealing with what the horse desires to do simultaneousy.

[loveracing]

True quarter horse's have jockey's, but a harness driver has to drive the horse. A 4 furlong race would give different options to the drivers, since their horse would have more energy to make different moves. Most of the time most horses sit second on the rail, then come out and win the race, wow how exciting. If the races were run at 4 furlongs, this would not happen, because you would have more ways of running a race.

[wilderness]

True quarter horse's have jockey's, but a harness driver has to drive the horse. A 4 furlong race would give different options to the drivers, since their horse would have more energy to make different moves. Most of the time most horses sit second on the rail, then come out and win the race, wow how exciting. If the races were run at 4 furlongs, this would not happen, because you would have more ways of running a race.

To be grammatically correct, Standardbred (harness horses) do not RUN!
They either trot or pace.
http://www.ustrotting.com/services/breed/harness.cfm

http://www.ustrotting.com/services/breed/harness.cfm#breed

When they RUN, they are required to pull up and lose ground on the field (although technically the rules just state they may not gain ground).

Jockeys have about twelve inches of rein in their hand before it reaches the bit. Jockeys are also actually allowed to strike the horse with their whip. Even dig in with their heels.

The Standardbred driver has appoximate four foot of line between themselves and the hoses bit. Not to mention a bike that is five foot long to navigate in addition to the horse.
In harness racing the driver is not allowed to strike the horse, rather, only the saddle cloth or the bike shafts. There have been exceptions, however drivers who abuse these rules are eventually fined with regularity.

Go to a Standardbred farm and learn something other than 20+ years of watching what you believe you've seen on TV screens!

If you tell me what state and major city your near?
I "may" be able to hook you up with somebody?

[toetoe]

In the 80's Cal Expo carded 5/8 races. The Fireball Series, I believe.

Harness is staying the same, but looking better as free gait (thoroughbred) declines.

[harcapper]

A 1/2 mile race would never work. The 5/8ths distance was to keep the horses from starting just before a turn.

Washington Park (RIP) had some sprints back in the early 70's and they too were at 9/16's and 11/16's to avoid starting in or at the turn.

It was abandoned due to the reduced wagering on the events.

In the 80's Cal Expo carded 5/8 races. The Fireball Series, I believe.

Harness is staying the same, but looking better as free gait (thoroughbred) declines.

[wilderness]

A 1/2 mile race would never work. The 5/8ths distance was to keep the horses from starting just before a turn.

Washington Park (RIP) had some sprints back in the early 70's and they too were at 9/16's and 11/16's to avoid starting in or at the turn.

It was abandoned due to the reduced wagering on the events.

Much the same as the 7/8's perimeter tracks that Canada utilizes (Avoiding starts in the turn).

[loveracing]

Good one Don, True you can't hit the harness horses, but a good driver should be able to get a horse out quick. As said before a good standardbred should go 4 furlongs with no problems. So if they want to go 3 wide, they would have no problem doing so. Handicappers would be making more money this way. Who cares if a 1/5 shot wins, everyone had it, also it is easy to catch a 1/5 shot, no handicapping needed.

[wilderness]

Good one Don, True you can't hit the harness horses, but a good driver should be able to get a horse out quick. As said before a good standardbred should go 4 furlongs with no problems. So if they want to go 3 wide, they would have no problem doing so. Handicappers would be making more money this way. Who cares if a 1/5 shot wins, everyone had it, also it is easy to catch a 1/5 shot, no handicapping needed.

You just don't get it!

It doesn't much matter what the wagering clientele desire!
The horsemen are in their own little world of subsidation!
It wouldn't much matter to them if there wasn't any wagering at all.

In stakes they are racing for their own money.
The remainder in the majority of markets comes from slots.

As far as what a driver should or shouldn't be able to do?
NOBODY should be allowed to critisize the actions of a driver until they've sat on a bike and tried to get a horse to go, turn or stop!
The majority of us relate driving a horse to driving a car and there is simply NO COMPARISON.

BTW, in the earlier reply I failed to include that harness drivers also have the inability to grab a horses ears (unless they have damn long arms).

[headhawg]

Your posts confuse me loveracing. You wrote that it wasn't very exciting having many horses win sitting 2nd on the rail ("wow", you wrote), and yet you want to do no handicapping and play 1/5 shots in half-mile races. (WOW! How exciting!, I wrote.)

You keep playing those 1-to-5's loveracing. I need more money like that in the pools.

[loveracing]

No, the 1/5 shots were in reference to the regular mile races. I get sick and tired of people cheering when they catch a 1/5 shot, big deal. Also you don't have to handicap to catch a 1/5 shot. I play the horses to make money, and I feel if they race at just 4 furlongs, their would be better pay offs. I would rather catch a 7-1 shot any day of the week over a 1/5 shot.

[loveracing]

If people bet on a horse and a driver does something stupid, the driver should be criticized. True you can't win every race, but drivers do a lot of stupid things, such as jetting a horse out to a 53 first half mile, truly stupid. If a horse can keep good form for just 4 furlongs so be it. Also bettor's keep the tracks in business, example: no customers a business will shut down real quick, that is a fact. True, slots will help racing, but if no one came to the track, bye bye track. True their is simulcasting, but if no one played, same result, track closed.

[harcapper]

loveracing,

Until you spend time training or driving horses, you should consider witholding your opinion on critisizing drivers. You give the impression that your 20 years of experience was not used wisely. As Don stated, they are not cars.

I am curious to know what track you play that has 1-5 shots winning all the time?

If people bet on a horse and a driver does something stupid, the driver should be criticized. True you can't win every race, but drivers do a lot of stupid things, such as jetting a horse out to a 53 first half mile, truly stupid. If a horse can keep good form for just 4 furlongs so be it. Also bettor's keep the tracks in business, example: no customers a business will shut down real quick, that is a fact. True, slots will help racing, but if no one came to the track, bye bye track. True their is simulcasting, but if no one played, same result, track closed.

[wilderness]

If people bet on a horse and a driver does something stupid, the driver should be criticized. True you can't win every race, but drivers do a lot of stupid things, such as jetting a horse out to a 53 first half mile, truly stupid. If a horse can keep good form for just 4 furlongs so be it.

There's a bit of conflict in your statement ;)
First your calling drivers stupid for a :53 half.
Next your encouraging 4-furlong (half-mile) races.

Please make up your mind ;)

Also bettor's keep the tracks in business, example: no customers a business will shut down real quick, that is a fact. True, slots will help racing, but if no one came to the track, bye bye track. True their is simulcasting, but if no one played, same result, track closed.

Could you possibly provide a solitary [harness racing; edited] track in North America which offers a wagering public that generates a profit for the facility?

Please don't provide the Meadowlands as they are subsidized by the Atlantic City Casinos (at least till the end of this year).

[loveracing]

The 53 half was in reference to a one mile race.

[loveracing]

Why not criticize the drivers ? They are the ones in control. People bet real money on races, and if the driver makes a stupid mistake he should be criticized. They put themselves in the public eye, so they should be open to criticism.

[wilderness]

Why not criticize the drivers ? They are the ones in control. People bet real money on races, and if the driver makes a stupid mistake he should be criticized. They put themselves in the public eye, so they should be open to criticism.

My length of time in wagering races is nearly twice your own.
In addition, I was very fortuante to be able to spend some time in the backstretch.

Through that time frame, the most successful wagering folks that I saw were the ones that keep their trap shut and you could not tell if they won or lost.
If they did pass on their crticism of a driver, it was a most subtle reference.

"They put themselves in the public eye"

Now that's a real joke!
You'd be lucky if you could muster the entire harness racing attendance of ALL North America and hope to fill a solitary football stadium ;)

[harcapper]

Please give me the name of the harness track that you are closest to so I can try to hook you up with a trainer to put you behind one. You can then see for yourself how much control a driver has tryng to steer and rate an 1100lb animal.


Why not criticize the drivers ? They are the ones in control. People bet real money on races, and if the driver makes a stupid mistake he should be criticized. They put themselves in the public eye, so they should be open to criticism.

[loveracing]

Drivers have years of experience under their belts, so you can defend them, but they do make stupid mistakes that cost bettors money. I live near the Meadowlands.

[loveracing]

Keep defending those drivers, it is your right to do so, I respect that.

[harcapper]

This is true. A drivers experience does not change the fact that when a horse wants to go and/or is in danger of choking down in a hole, there is no experience in the world that can help. You just have to pull and go or risk going down.

There are also many horses that are referred to as "common" horses who will not or cannot take air without backing thru the field. Pulling one like that 1st over will get you zero.

There is a lot more going on out there then you realize.

If you follow the Big M, make it a point to let us know when you see a bad drive so we can see your logic.

Re a chance to sit behind one. It will be tough to get you behind one due to the high value of the horses there.

Drivers have years of experience under their belts, so you can defend them, but they do make stupid mistakes that cost bettors money. I live near the Meadowlands.

[loveracing]

I really don't want to drive a horse, I'll leave that to the pro's. lol

[harcapper]

Actually it would be an experience that you would likely never forget.



I really don't want to drive a horse, I'll leave that to the pro's. lol