Baseball and "Cheating"

[OTM Al]

Seems to be a big topic on the airwaves lately and it is clear to me most people shooting off their mouths know nothing about baseball and its history. Cheating and deception have been part and parcel of baseball since day one. Those who are good at it are cherished. Let's go through a few instances shall we?

1. The curve ball. Yes, you read that right. Once upon a time batters told pitchers whether they wanted the ball thrown high or low. Pitchers basically just threw fastballs. Well, they got rid of the high/low rule as it gave too much advantage to batters and established a strike zone. Pitchers then learned how to attack that strike zone in the most deceptive ways possible, the first being the curve ball. "Purists" were horrified that deception was being used in our grande olde game. Any off speed or breaking pitch is intended to deceive the batter.

2. The spit or shine ball. Outlawed in 1920 (except for those who already threw it!) this one still shows up from time to time and while the pitcher is ejected and suspended if caught doing it, it still goes on. Kenny Rodgers anyone? Fans just generally chuckle about it.

3. Sign stealing. One of the grand traditions of the game. Perhaps helped the so call "shot heard 'round the world" happen. Catchers and pitchers regularly change signs when a runner is on 2nd in every game.

4. The "deke". How many times have you seen an infielder try to fake out a runner that the ball is coming back in or that they have actually missed a ball that they really caught? Hidden ball trick anyone? Ever heard of the Hawaiian pineapple play? (batter bunts and then just stops as if the ump has called the play dead. Meanwhile a runner is circling the bases. The batter takes off about the time the runner rounds 3rd if all works to perfection)

5. Jawing. Catchers do it to batters, dugouts do it to batters or fielders. We all did it when we were kids. ARod made a lifetime minor leaguer look like a lifetime minor leaguer last night.

Baseball is all about deception. Quit crying all the time and learn the game.

[banacek]

Some of the things you are talking about (like the hidden ball play) are the things that make baseball fun to watch.

The other day one of the Blue Jays stole home - and all this publicity- like he pitched a perfect game or something. Of course, people remember Jackie Robinson stealing home, but he did it 19 times in his career. I read somewhere that Rod Carew did it 7 times in one season.

Where all are these cool plays? Are there suicide squeezes anymore? And is it because the managers are too conservative to take the chance?

[OTM Al]

We are in a hitting dominated time of the game. Guys don't steal home because the chance of success is less than the chance they will get driven in by a hit. Its just fallen out of favor because of the hitting mentality. Because of this, guys don't even know how to do it anymore. I've seen a perfect game, so maybe I'm spoiled, but I've always wanted to see a guy steal home live.

Suicide squeeze still happens occasionally, but it is still giving up an out, so most managers would rather the guy try to hit. Basically if he makes contact, the run will be scored, so why squeeze in this age when even the little guys can pop one out?

Baseball has been a game of ebb and flow. Hitting dominated the game back in the 30s too, but eventually pitching took sway. I've always contended if they really want to give pitchers an edge again then enforce the batters box. Many batters these days are gaining advantage by being outside the box. At least umps are now sometimes calling a guy back if he's been hit by a pitch out of the box or not trying to get out of the way.

[kenwoodallpromos]

taking a lead off a base.

[JustRalph]

I miss small ball..........and that steal of home was the best play I have seen in years..............Awesome!

[OTM Al]

There is still a place for it, more in the National than the American League, though I've always felt the best time to use it for anyone was for tack on runs when you already had the lead. In the era of the bashers though, small ball has the problem as it generally gives up an out, which is a precious commodity.

[DanG]

Good thread Al;

Those of us that will swear a blood oath that we would never take ANY performance enhancing substance under the following circumstances, please step forward.




Your in your very early twenty’s.
Lifelong personal and family dream to play major league sports.
While in college / minor leagues some who were equal or inferior are now getting promoted before me due to designer substances.
A salary and potential financial security I could not attain in 10 lifetimes.
Women who would not blow their nose on me now trip over each other to touch me.
Beloved relatives have passed away without realizing their dreams and the health risk seems trivial when compared to the rewards.
Etc…etc…etc…

I submit to you the jury the line would be very short of those among us who would not take EVERY edge imaginable.

In closing…Since Bonds seems to be the poster child of drug enhancement I think many people pass over the real issue behind the public’s resentment. Without getting overly complicated it goes something like this…

HE’S AN ASSHOLE! :ThmbDown:


Before / during and long after he has ingested whatever it is that he has…He was a very unlikable fellow on many levels. As Robin Williams said…”The real danger in Cocaine is it intensifies your personality and what if you’re an asshole to start with?”

[BillW]

In closing…Since Bonds seems to be the poster child of drug enhancement I think many people pass over the real issue behind the public’s resentment. Without getting overly complicated it goes something like this…

HE’S AN ASSHOLE! :ThmbDown:




Being from Pittsburgh, I can vouch for there being many 11 year olds who inadvertently enhanced there 4 letter word vocabulary by simply asking for an autograph.

[GaryG]

Good point Dan, the reason most of us dislike/hate Barry Bonds has nothing to do with steroids. Sammy S is just as guilty but he is a very likeable guy. Guillermo Mota will be welcomed back. The steroids is just an excuse to dump on Bonds. Of course, I would dump on him plenty just because he IS such an unrepentant asshole. No laws on the books against them....at least yet. I'll bet Jim Leyland has an opinion!

[OTM Al]

I wasn't going to bring up drugs, but let's face it, there's been drugs in baseball since there's been baseball. My favorite was the "Vitamin B" shot Mickey Mantle got from good ole Dr Feelgood in 61 which took him out of the home run race when the injection site got infected. Yeah. Vitamin B. Right. Athletes would willingly give up years off the end of their lives to have a HOF career. That has always been true and will never change.

[JustRalph]

I wasn't going to bring up drugs, but let's face it, there's been drugs in baseball since there's been baseball. My favorite was the "Vitamin B" shot Mickey Mantle got from good ole Dr Feelgood in 61 which took him out of the home run race when the injection site got infected. Yeah. Vitamin B. Right. Athletes would willingly give up years off the end of their lives to have a HOF career. That has always been true and will never change.

I think Mickey actually admitted later in life that he was receiving pain killers in those shots to keep his legs from taking him out of the game. He played in an incredible amount of pain. can you imagine how well he could have hit had he not been on a narcotic?

[OTM Al]

Well, I think the pain killers were a performance enhancer for him given how badly damaged that knee was. What you can say about #7 for sure though is can you imagine how much better he would have been without the self destructive behavior? Stengal knew how good he could be and that's why Mickey was always a big disappointment to him.