Street Sense to pass on Belmont

[point given]

Damn, DAmn, Damn ............. I know it was a longshot, but i hoped that they might run him. Now its the Travers, which is the the goal. I only hope that he stays healthy, and actually runs in it. Of course that will probably mean that the Travers will have a short field as well. Now the Belmont will be a short field with 5 in, probably flush out another runner or two as well . Looks like Rags to Riches will not run either. So, that certainly takes an edge off . :mad:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=39154

[lsbets]

I would not be surprised if we never see SS run again. With the BC Juv and the Derby, he's worth way too much as a stallion.

[point given]

I would not be surprised if we never see SS run again. With the BC Juv and the Derby, he's worth way too much as a stallion.

Although, you are most likely correct, lets hope that Nafzger is the true horseman we all think he is and that he will do right with the horse and put him in the best position to achieve his goals. The stepped on a stone or chip thing is right around the corner though. Lets hope we get to see him run a few more times this year. I would think the Haskell and Travers,and BC would be on the menu. Might be a tad short for the Haskell, and use it to "push the button a little later " than in the Preakness to see how it would work out befor the primary goal of the travers. The BC vs Invasor would be one tough race.

[DanG]

Although, you are most likely correct, lets hope that Nafzger is the true horseman we all think he is and that he will do right with the horse and put him in the best position to achieve his goals.
Nafzger’s horsemanship has never been questioned by those in the industry and lets all remember…ultimately it’s the owners call.

[ELA]

Nafzger’s horsemanship has never been questioned by those in the industry and lets all remember…ultimately it’s the owners call.

You are 100% right -- his horsemanship has never been questioned by those in the industry. For the most part, his horsemenship has only been questioned by the media, and even more so, by people on BB's. LOL.

Eric

[lsbets]

I'd love to see SS keep running, and keep running against Curlin. It would be great to have a rivalry in racing again. But, if you were the owner, would you take a chance with what he will sell for as a stallion? War Emblem went for what, $40 million? Being the only horse to win the Juvenile and the Derby, he's worth at least 50, if not more. No matter how much money you have, 50 million is a lot of change, and it would be the rarest of individuals who would risk diminishing the value of that horse.

[Observer]

Bloodhorse on Street Sense (http://tcm.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=39154)

Troubling quote:

“Knowing the offers that are coming in on this horse, which I don’t know the details of, but I know it’s getting economically impossible to run,” he said.

[Indulto]

I'd love to see SS keep running, and keep running against Curlin. It would be great to have a rivalry in racing again. But, if you were the owner, would you take a chance with what he will sell for as a stallion? War Emblem went for what, $40 million? Being the only horse to win the Juvenile and the Derby, he's worth at least 50, if not more. No matter how much money you have, 50 million is a lot of change, and it would be the rarest of individuals who would risk diminishing the value of that horse.He'd be worth even more if he could exact revenge on Curlin. Since it's reasonable to suspect SS may not now be at his most ready to go 12f, it would make "sense" to wait to encounter Curlin again at 10f.

Problem is, Curlin may not wait to give him the opportunity. What are the chances he'll head for the breeding shed right after winning the Belmont should that come to pass. There are many other possiblities that could prevent their rematch from occurring. As it, Curlin is 3YO champ (unless Hard Spun wins) by default, just by running in a Belmont not contested by SS.

[point given]

He'd be worth even more if he could exact revenge on Curlin. Since it's reasonable to suspect SS may not now be at his most ready to go 12f, it would make "sense" to wait to encounter Curlin again at 10f.

Problem is, Curlin may not wait to give him the opportunity. What are the chances he'll head for the breeding shed right after winning the Belmont should that come to pass. There are many other possiblities that could prevent their rematch from occurring. As it, Curlin is 3YO champ (unless Hard Spun wins) by default, just by running in a Belmont not contested by SS.

Curlin wins the Belmont, Street Sense wins the Travers, and neither wins the BC Classic ( Invasor does. ) Who is the 3 yo of the year ? Curlin with wins in the Preakness and Belmont, or Street Sense with The Derby and Travers ( and the only 2yo champ to win the Derby ). ?

Came upon this Nafzger quote on not running in the Belmont, which makes complete sense.

"The fall campaign has a heavy weight on being Horse of the Year, 3-year-old of the year," he said. "What you do the first part of it sets the tone, but you've got to finish the year. … There's a lot of strategy involved, a lot of thinking involved. If you go to the Belmont, you've got to get to the Travers without a prep. If you do not run in the Belmont, you can use a prep for the Travers."

[samyn on the green]

Very disappointing for the game. What a bunch of saps. If they wanted to run a business get a hot dog stand. This is a sport, too bad all the Kings are dead, these Bourgeoisie owners are no good for the game. This is the cost of upward mobility, people with lots of money but no class. I'll be sure to boo Street Sense and his conx if he somehow makes it to the Travers.

[bigmack]

Very disappointing for the game. What a bunch of saps. If they wanted to run a business get a hot dog stand. This is a sport, too bad all the Kings are dead, these Bourgeoisie owners are no good for the game. This is the cost of upward mobility, people with lots of money but no class. I'll be sure to boo Street Sense and his conx if he somehow makes it to the Travers.
Interesting sentiment and I'm not far removed from your position but booing seems a tad pale. Bousouise involvement in the game is nothing new and I have a sneaking suspision it has little to do with the decision.

[toddtontv]

S on the green is correct, it's all about the money and not the sport, besides, Street Sense won't get the distance of the Belmont, and Carl knows it!

[Greyfox]

S on the green is correct, it's all about the money and not the sport, besides, Street Sense won't get the distance of the Belmont, and Carl knows it!

Will Curlin get the mile and half if there's some type of competitive pressure?

ch. C, 2004 DP = 9-3-8-0-0 (20) DI = 4.00 CD = 1.05

[gIracing]

you know would would be poetic justice?

Curlin winning the Belmont, AND coming back to beat him in the travers.

I have lost all respect for CN, Tefel and SS.

Horse racing: always finding ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

this years belmont would have been one of the hallmark belmonts in years past. People I know who don't even watch horse racing were asking me about it.. who do I like? And what do they do?

Even if SS didn't WIN, even if he would have RAN, I would have respected him. To face the best.. that's all the public wants.. and in the end, isn't that who this game is about?

If he's injuried.. you put him on the shelf, end of diccussion. no questions asked. But if he can run, you rum him. You owe the game that much

[depalma13]

He'd be worth even more if he could exact revenge on Curlin. Since it's reasonable to suspect SS may not now be at his most ready to go 12f, it would make "sense" to wait to encounter Curlin again at 10f.

Problem is, Curlin may not wait to give him the opportunity. What are the chances he'll head for the breeding shed right after winning the Belmont should that come to pass. There are many other possiblities that could prevent their rematch from occurring. As it, Curlin is 3YO champ (unless Hard Spun wins) by default, just by running in a Belmont not contested by SS.

According to Nadia, Curlin will be pointed toward the Classic after this race, with a the Jim Dandy, Travers and a race against older in the plans.

[ghostyapper]

According to Nadia, Curlin will be pointed toward the Classic after this race, with a the Jim Dandy, Travers and a race against older in the plans.

So was afleet alex and smarty jones.

[Stevie Belmont]

The owner of Street Sense is all about breeding. He wanted the Derby as the main goal and they got it. Who knows whats next.

[JustRalph]

The owner of Street Sense is all about breeding. He wanted the Derby as the main goal and they got it. Who knows whats next.

anymore I just can't say I blame him..........can you imagine? One horse goes into the breeding shed with a chance to setup your extended family for the rest of their days? why not? Or run him and hope he doesn't break down.

[gIracing]

if that is the case, why not just say F it and sell him now? I mean Tefel isn't getting any younger

[JustRalph]

if that is the case, why not just say F it and sell him now? I mean Tefel isn't getting any younger

I am sure the offers are there........lots to think about. Plus I think he is probably working on figuring out the taxes and such......... :lol:

[Indulto]

Very disappointing for the game. What a bunch of saps. If they wanted to run a business get a hot dog stand. This is a sport, too bad all the Kings are dead, these Bourgeoisie owners are no good for the game. This is the cost of upward mobility, people with lots of money but no class. I'll be sure to boo Street Sense and his conx if he somehow makes it to the Travers.I'm with you on this one, SOTG.

The shortness of SS's nose was responible for a far greater loss to racing and its fans than we realized. SS wins and we get another triple crown attempt plus a great rivalry, ergo a great Belmont Stakes -- a true test of Champions.

With a more sporting owner, we could have had two out of three. Now all we get to see is whether Cordero can still stay on a horse for 12f without fouling another jockey or the air at Belmont any more than SS's owner.

I was determined not to let the ADW debacle ruin the Derby for me, but this Belmont surrender by the owner of Street Sense should violate every racing fan's sense of smell and be shown up for what it is -- Short-sighted short-selling of a Champion and stealing another opportunity for racing to showcase the best running against the best.

People cheered the Jackson's in their efforts to save Barbaro. People should now show their contempt for the cowardice and avarice displayed in the efforts to hide Street Sense. If there were an Eclipse award for poorest sportsman, the owner of Street Sense would win it, characteristically, in a runaway.

[gIracing]

let's not be that shortsighted now...

you aren't going to make 20 million dollars next year running a hotdog stand.


I always told myself this... If I was ever in a positon to have a horse THAT good... the first time, I have to look out for me. I'm not going to pull a footsepsinthesand on everyone and run 3 times and hang it up... but I have to look out for my financial future.

HOWEVER.. if I am in the posiiton one day again.. which I should be because alot of the money I would use would be to build a nice sized stable... I'd run the horse until he went on strike.

You owe it to the game, to give back.. not only that, it makes better sires (more durable), which makes better horses.

finance won over sportsmenship.. I hate it, and if it were ANY other year, wouldn't be aS big a deal... but it's a step back big time in the game we all love

[CryingForTheHorses]

S on the green is correct, it's all about the money and not the sport, besides, Street Sense won't get the distance of the Belmont, and Carl knows it!

Doesnt matter if he got the distance or not..He won the most coveted race in history..Put yourself in the owners shoes..It would be like you hitting a million dollar lottery ticket..This man fully supported the sport by paying his fees getting to the derby ,Ill also bet he had countless restless nites praying nothing happened to his horse...Give the man a pat on the back instead of acting like a jealous fool

[GaryG]

I believe the SS management is doing the right thing. If he had nosed out Curlin they would be obliged to run him and, IMO, he would have gotten blown out by Curlin. I hate to think of it in terms of betting, but with SS going for the TC there would be plenty of sentimental money on him with Curlin likely an overlay. I agree with the others who have said that a sale is likely. And the beat goes on...

[Pace Cap'n]

It is not a given that Curlin would be running in the Belmont had he not won the Preakness. We are not necessarily being denied a great re-match.

[gIracing]

that logic is what's wrong with horse racing now.. Afraid to loose.

I gotta tell ya.. if i got a horse that can run a 110+ Beyer at that distance, I'm not backing down from ANYONE...unless ghostzapper comes out of retirement

I asked someone this earlier today... let's say street sense goes on and wins the travers. who would you consider a better horse.. alydar.. a horse who lost 3 times in a row to affirmed, or street sense, who ducked and dodged his way to a 3YO champion title?

[depalma13]

So was afleet alex and smarty jones.

The difference is Nadia's family and the rest of the controlling connections are billionaires. In the cases of Alex and Smarty, they weren't.

[JPinMaryland]

Wow, horseracing fans sure are fickle!

Before the derby: "We really need a horse who can step up and make a challenge for the TC. We need to bring fans back to the game."

After the Preakness: "Well Curlin and SS have such a great rivalry now we really need them to go to the Belmont. We need to bring fans back to the game."

ALso, if SS comes back and runs in the Travers and BC what is so bad about that? Personally I think if I had a choice to see him one run more time in the BEL or twice in Travers and BC I''d take the latter.

If the choice were BEL vs BC; I still maybe take BC on account of the distance is more reasonable the field is prolly more competitive.

Also the whole idea we need certain horses to run to bring casual fans back has some major problems with it. For one thing, what exactly do fans remember? They can barely remember Smarty Jones, and they have no idea who Funny Cide or War Emblem was. There's a Barbaro movie so I guess they will remember him for what another 6 months.

You know what brings fans to game? Good races. Was the derby a good race? Yes. Was the Preakness, that was a great Preakness.

That is why people are talking about these horses, they saw excellent races. If SS and Curlin were to do a Jaipur/Ridan in the Travers then people would be talking about that.


If you keep getting good races you should get fans back or else racing really is finished. You dont need some mythical match up or even some mythical triple crown. Just find good, competive races.

[JPinMaryland]

I asked someone this earlier today... let's say street sense goes on and wins the travers. who would you consider a better horse.. alydar.. a horse who lost 3 times in a row to affirmed, or street sense, who ducked and dodged his way to a 3YO champion title?

Like what does this have to do with anything? Would Curlin be better than Gate Dancer? Would Eddington be better than Hard SPun? Would Twilight Tear be better than Ruffian? You're never going to answer these questions and moreover, what is the pt?

If the pt. has to do with fan base then do they really need some all time ranking list to bring them back? Do you think casual fans are sittign there trying to rank Smarty Jones vs Curlin??

[JPinMaryland]

You owe it to the game, to give back.. not only that, it makes better sires (more durable), which makes better horses.



How? How does running at BEL make SS more durable?

If he doesnt run at BEL and does run at Travers and BC? Would that make him more durable??

[JPinMaryland]

...Give the man a pat on the back instead of acting like a jealous fool


Agreed, how many good/great races has SS given us?

First horse to win the BC juv and the derby? Gee, I guess all seem to forget that.

Or the TB Derby. Was that not a great derby prep? Or the Blue Grass another nail biter.

This horse was in 3 photo finishes. Is that important to you? What about to the "Casual fan? If close finishes mean anything to fan base, the horse/connections have done his share..

[gIracing]

it's not just SS NOT running in the belmont. it's owners and trainers running horses like they are made of glass in general. you get sires who have raced 8 times, breeding with unraced dams, and you get very unsound horses, which is part of the probem we have now.


SS is not going to effect my love for the game. I'm a fan and have been a fan. i will still watch the Belmont regardless of who is in it.


However, horse racing seems to have the same problem as boxing... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

when I watch boxing... I want to see a good fight between the best fighters. it's that simple.

to the causal fan, not us, all they know is they saw three really good horses that ran 123 in the last 2 derby races, and want to see it again. then they find out that even though SS is in great shape, he isn't going to the belmont. That's enough for the casual fan to not tune in or even care, espically people who like him as sentimental fav because of the derby.

Could you imagine if Alydar said F it, we can't win the triple crown after the preakness or even the derby and just skipped the whole trail.. and if I recall he had a hell of a career after the belmont.

That's what I am saying.

and with all that said, if there is any inkling of anything wrong with SS, put him on the shelf. But if there isn't, you run him. that's what i mean.

People seem to forget that our industry, this industry, survives on one thing and one thing only... betting interests. sometime people loose the big picture. You wouldn't be making what you are making as a trainer (CN) nor would you be willing ot sell SS for the insane amount of money you are going to (Tefel) if it weren't for the people who are interested in seeing SS.

what I wouldn't give to see SS loose the travers and the BC because of this fiasco

[JPinMaryland]

to the causal fan, not us, all they know is they saw three really good horses that ran 123 in the last 2 derby races, and want to see it again. then they find out that even though SS is in great shape, he isn't going to the belmont. That's enough for the casual fan to not tune in or even care, espically people who like him as sentimental fav because of the derby.

If this was really the problem with horse racing, horse racing would be in great shape.

AFter all did we not have 3 runs for the TC in 2002, 2003 and 2004? Granted 2005/06 produced no great rivalries, but we had some great TC runs. So what happened to the fan base?

What better advertisement for Horse racing than WEmblem, FUnny Cide, Smarty, and Barbaro? So where are all the fans?

[gIracing]

you are missing the point.


And at the same time you are doing nothing but proving mine.


what happened to every last one of thoose horses right after the TC trail (Besides Barboro)?


How can you be a fan of a horse that doesn't run? Take a "Smarty's Number 1" finger thingy to his breeding sheed?

You can't be a fan of a horse that doesn't run.

It's one of the bigger problems horse racing has. The reason I am really not on my soapbox is because even if he DID run in the belmont, there is no chance we see him as 4 YO anyway so it's really pointless.

I do remember, espically when smarty jones was going into the belmont.. horse racing ot a lot of coverage.

At the end of the day...good races. That's it. Look at what happens when the breeders cup comes to town. People will pay to see a good sport.

[JPinMaryland]

You know its hard to understand what your pt. is.

If SS runs later in the year would that make you happy? Based on your last post that what is sounds like.

SO why not wait and see?

###

Do you have any explanation of how SS running in the BEL will make his progeny sounder?

[gIracing]

Running SS in general will make his progeny stronger.


I just don't and never did like the idea of horses running 10 times barring children that run 8 times, that bare children that run 6 times (See where I am going).. STret Cry only ran 13 times. Bedazzle was a hard knockin filly.. I think 29 starts. Street Sense is more durable than people give him credit for, i'll give you that...

If i had my wish, you wuld have to have a certain number of starts to be able to go to stud.. maybe a nice run number like 20.. I could live with 15.

what would make me happy? SS running in the belmont and the travers.. it's a 7 week difference. And I am pretty sure curlin is doing both as well, but yet you don't hear anyone making any news about that.

I could honesty understand if the travers was at the end of june... truth be told, I'd rather have a travers than a belmont.. more important for breeding.

But if I had the chance to do BOTH you do it.

[highnote]

People seem to forget that our industry, this industry, survives on one thing and one thing only... betting interests. sometime people loose the big picture. You wouldn't be making what you are making as a trainer (CN) nor would you be willing ot sell SS for the insane amount of money you are going to (Tefel) if it weren't for the people who are interested in seeing SS.


I disagree. This industry ultimately survives because of breeding -- not betting.

The U.S. industry only grew because it offered the only legal betting option. Now there is lots of competition for the gambling dollar and the industry can only survive AT ITS CURRENT SIZE if it is subsidized by slot revenue.

We only have claiming races because those slow horses attracted gambling dollars. Now there is competition for the gambling dollar and the racing industry is not popular and is struggling to maintain its current size. But take away the betting and the breeding industry will survive and we'll be left with racing among the best horses. The wealthiest owners will always try to breed the best horses and run them in the biggest races.

There is no betting in Dubai, but wealthy owners who try to breed great horses are supporting the industry and putting up the money for big purses in hopes of attracting the best horses to race their stock against.

Let the wealthy owners / breeders support the industry. Let the industry shrink to a manageable size. We'll see a lot better racing and have a lot better horses to bet on -- not to mention huge betting pools.



what I wouldn't give to see SS loose the travers and the BC because of this fiasco

Put your money where your mouth is and lay him on a betting exchange. Hell, I may be willing to take your action depending on the odds you offer.

[gIracing]

with all due respect that might be the most unthoughtout response I ever heard in regards to horse racing.


"let the wealthy people worry about it"

Dubai is a different creature all together. The Dubai Festival of racing is what happens when one of the richest men in the world says "I'm going to put on a show"

The reason it's so popular is not because there is "no betting"... that's for religious reasons. It's popular becuase there are over 20mil worth of purses for I think 6 races, with the Dubai Sheema Classic being 5 mil and the World cup being 6 mil. it attracts the best horses


If horse racing wasn't a passion over there, you would have never heard of Dubai.

If there was no one to bet on the kentucky derby, or the preakness or the belmont or any race for that matter, and handles went down say, 50% in the next 10 years... would you get your few rich guys that shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars in breeding fees? sure. that's a given. But the stables are the industries bread and butter, and it would put most stables out of business if they couldn't win purse money (which would go down because of of lower purses, I saw it happen first hand here at oaklawn), then they wouldn't be able to pay the stud fees they do or run their barns the size that they do. This would make the stud fees have to go down to get clients which would take money out of the pockets of the stallion farms.... so it all comes full circle to you have to get a reason for people to actually come to the track to place their money down on races.

there are always going to be people like you and I. I'll go to the track to watch a card of 10 5k maiden claimers if I could. But that's horse racing's core fans. you don't survive, better yet, you don't grow with core fans, it's the casual fans (and I can't believe you are even making this argument given the fact that we have para mutal wagering, and the more dumb money we can get for us the better) that make things grow, puts money in everyones pocket.


Breeding, breeding FEES didn't jump until I think the 70's.,, maybe the late 60's.. I'm just 23, I'm not that old.

Look at Phalaris, Man O War... two of the best stallions ever that ran because there were not the stud fees there are now.

Also, if you actually look at it, and I won't get that deep into it becuase I wll be here all damn day, 90% of the time paying book value on a stud like AP Indy, Storm Cat or Sadlers Wells is a loosing gamble. Most will never make that money back at the track and most will never see the shed.

Again, the bred and butter stables are the ones who look for value... the ones who look for horses to bred to like Pleasant Tap (15k) or Benchmark.. horses that have proven time and time again what they can do but don't have the highest commercial value. People who know how to catch a stallion before they get the dreded "commercial value" (a la street cry) and gets his stud fee driven up to 100k per session. Look at the preakness. You can combine all of the sales prices of the horses in the field, take out hard spu n, and you still couldn't bred to storm cat

[JPinMaryland]

SOme of what you say makes sense, but look at this:



Look at Phalaris, Man O War... two of the best stallions ever that ran because there were not the stud fees there are now.



They retired ManOWar after his sophomore season. Do you know that? Because it seems as if you are saying that these horses were out there running as 4 yr. olds because there wasnt tremendous stud fees. In fact this is what you are complaining about for much of the thread.

But if you are holding out MoW as some icon, he was retired at 3..

[highnote]

with all due respect that might be the most unthoughtout response I ever heard in regards to horse racing....... I'm just 23, I'm not that old.
None taken. But your inexperience shows, whippersnapper. :D

If there was no one to bet on the kentucky derby, or the preakness or the belmont or any race for that matter, and handles went down say, 50% in the next 10 years... would you get your few rich guys that shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars in breeding fees? sure. that's a given.

That's my point. You don't need betting for the industry to survive. Steeplechase racing survives without betting.

You said betting is what makes this industry survive. I say breeding is what makes it survive. Originally, and still true basically, gentlemen farmers liked to breed fancy livestock to show off -- so they staged racing events.

Nothing wrong with it. But that's what it comes down to.

Betting helped the industry grow and without betting it will shrink. But it will never disappear because wealthy breeders / owners will keep racing alive.


But the stables are the industries bread and butter, and it would put most stables out of business if they couldn't win purse money (which would go down because of of lower purses, I saw it happen first hand here at oaklawn), then they wouldn't be able to pay the stud fees they do or run their barns the size that they do. This would make the stud fees have to go down to get clients which would take money out of the pockets of the stallion farms.... so it all comes full circle to you have to get a reason for people to actually come to the track to place their money down on races.

You are making my point. The stables are the industry's bread and butter because gambling dollars support them. Stud fees might go down -- then again maybe not. You'd just have fewer stallions without betting. Since there would be fewer opportunities to win a purse people wouldn't breed to cheap stallions.

and the more dumb money we can get for us the better) that make things grow,

My point exactly. Betting made the industry grow. That is no longer true. Slot subsidies will make the industry grow.

The gov't subsidizes farmers, so maybe it's not so bad to subsidize racing -- since it is an agricultural business. It's also an entertainment business. Without betting racing is about as important as polo. It would be all about the ego of the wealthy owner / breeders winning -- which is what it is about now, except we can participate by betting.

[gIracing]

I don't know if it is old or what, so if it's german don't flame me.. but street sense's breeding rights have been sold to darly

[rgustafson]

I don't know if it is old or what, so if it's german don't flame me.. but street sense's breeding rights have been sold to darly

Gee, I wonder if this had anything to do with passing on the Belmont?:)

[highnote]

I don't know if it is old or what, so if it's german don't flame me.. but street sense's breeding rights have been sold to darly


DRF article.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/85494.html

[JPinMaryland]

Goddamit, they do this every freakin time. :bang:

[highnote]

Goddamit, they do this every freakin time. :bang:


If I would have owned him, it would have happened a long time before this -- like the day after his BC Juvenile win. :D

[kenwoodallpromos]

I don't know if it is old or what, so if it's german don't flame me.. but street sense's breeding rights have been sold to darly
______________
How long has this been in negotiations and was the announcement timing meant to draw attention from the Belmont?

[point given]

Gee, I wonder if this had anything to do with passing on the Belmont?:)

More likely the latest release that not only did Darley buy Street Sense, but they bought Hard Spun as well. The only racing they will do against each other will be in adjoining paddocks. :jump:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=39201

[highnote]

One upshot to high oil prices is that wealthy sheiks are willing to spend all that oil money on buying stallion prospects.

[gIracing]

I'm not worried about hard spun hanging it up yet, he doesn't have a G1 win yet.. I think they might try to add it before he hangs it up.

[point given]

I'm not worried about hard spun hanging it up yet, he doesn't have a G1 win yet.. I think they might try to add it before he hangs it up.

Haskell ? = HS G 1
Travers = SS G1
BC = Invasor GI

[gIracing]

I don't think SS will win another race this year. bold statement i know.. I just don't see it.

first, It doesn't make much sense to dodge curlin in the Belmont, only to take on Curlin, master command, Asiatic boy, possibly Discreet Cat and Invasor in the BC Classic.. he won't make it that far.. any other year maybe, but this is one of the stronger BC fields possibly, that have came along in a while. and that's not including if lava man decides to try to ship again.

What makes everyone think that if SS goes to the Travers, it's an automatic win? He still hasn't proven he can beat top flight comp outside of Churchill.. and I think Curlin is better. Tiago is getting better with age and who knows who else is improving.. I like that horse that won the Grade 3 over Liquidity last week.

[Indulto]

One upshot to high oil prices is that wealthy sheiks are willing to spend all that oil money on buying stallion prospects.Congratulations to Darley for having purchased the "yeah, but" horse. :bang:

1) Wins BC Juvenile on track some claim had a "golden" rail early on the card for first Grade I victory (at CD) and first winning rail rally.
2) Wins first Derby prep nosing out Any Given Saturday who went wide with a questionable ride then tried and died in the longer Wood and longer Derby. Second wining rail rally.
3) Was nosed out by Polytrak specialst in 4-horse photo with weaker. First time caught at the wire.
4) Wins Derby with virtually zero ground loss in a "divine" trip which witnessed the parting of the "red" Derby field for his second G1 win (at CD) and third winning rail rally.
5) Was nosed out by Curlin who re-rallied after being passed resulting in his second defeat at the wire.
6) Though apparently not injured, the Derby winner and Preakness placer skips the Belmont thus failing to acquire the iron-horse mantle of such Triple Crown contestors who went the full-distance without winning it such as Spectacular Bid, Majestic Prince, Arts and Letters, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Alydar, Alysheba, Bet Twice, Smarty Jones, Aflleet Alex, Funny Cide, War Emblem, etc.

If Darley wants to make "cents" out of Street Sense, it might do well to prove the above is nonsense before it makes sense to a breeding consensus.;)

So far it seems reasonable to expect his progeny to love CD-style dirt, but perhaps not synthetic surfaces. Wouldn't some breeders want to know if he could go 12 furlongs and win without some unplanned advantage as well as when things don't go his way? On the other hand, maybe tomorrow's breeders will prefer luck to stamina. :rolleyes:

[gIracing]

I wll say this in his defense.. any horse that can consistanty run over 105ish beyer is GOOD, good trip or not. I never said he wasn't a good horse.

but you are spot on. he was literarly bred to love the CD track. his sire loved it. his kids will probalby love it.

[betchatoo]

If the owner and the trainer think that the best thing for the horse is to skip the race, isn't that their decision to make? If they don't think he will be at his most effective at 12 furlongs, isn't it a good decision? I've heard many people here rail against trainers for putting horses in races that they couldn't win. I'd love to see the rivalry renewed, but I haven't got millions of dollars at stake.

[Indulto]

If the owner and the trainer think that the best thing for the horse is to skip the race, isn't that their decision to make? If they don't think he will be at his most effective at 12 furlongs, isn't it a good decision? I've heard many people here rail against trainers for putting horses in races that they couldn't win. I'd love to see the rivalry renewed, but I haven't got millions of dollars at stake.Neither have I, but I won't let that stop me.;)

I respect an owner's right to do anything he wants with his property, and unlike many other horseplayers here I recognize that owners make the game possible for the rest of us, but I don't have to respect an owner who backs down from running the best against the best in the rare instances when the sport would benefit greatly by doing so, and suffer by not. This rematch had the potential for putting last year's Preakness tragedy behind us and renew enthusiasm for the sport.

But as U.S. racing continues to degenerate into the "Sport of Sheikhs," the concept of "running the best against the best" has less meaning than ever. The people that declined to go to the Belmont with Bernardini, or run him against Discrete Cat in the latter's prime, or give him a rematch against Invasor, are now, I suspect, influencing the decision not to contest the Belmont with their latest breeding acquisition. I also doubt we'll see Premium Tap return to Saratoga to defend his Woodward crown and possibly take down the Whitney as well. Oh, but then they'd have to run him against Invasor.

Money isn't everything, B2, and now oil money is greasing NY racing's decline into more days like Jockey Gold Cup day last year with tiny, non-competitive fields in all the carded stakes. Wasn't one of the Sheikhs recently named to the NYRA board od directors? What contribution has he made to the process?

The guys that are able to have millions at stake already have enough millions to play the game the right way. I'll be the first to praise the owners of Street Sense, and the Sheikhs when it appears they have they same concern for preserving the sport in New York as some others in a similar position who used their wealth and influence to make it the best and kept it that way.

[gIracing]

I recognize that owners make the game possible for the rest of us, but I don't have to respect an owner who backs down from running the best against the best in the rare instances when the sport would benefit greatly by doing so, and suffer by not.


I could not have said it better myself.


As far as Premium Tap, he's over in Dubai and is training for next year.. he's not coming over.

Horse Racing is literalry becoming the "Sport of Kings"

[PaceAdvantage]

I could not have said it better myself.


As far as Premium Tap, he's over in Dubai and is training for next year.. he's not coming over.

Horse Racing is literalry becoming the "Sport of Kings"

Really? I thought I read somewhere that PT was coming back to the states...he didn't like it "over there"

[betchatoo]

What if money isn't the issue? What if they just don't think Street Sense is in top condition to be competitive at 12 furlongs following a couple of hard races? I don't know their motivation. Does it do the sport any good if he runs and is totally non-competitive?

[rastajenk]

What if he had won the head-bob in the Preakness and was in exactly the same condition as he is today? Do you think they'd say, "For the sake of the horse, we'll pass." I don't. So if he's healthy enough to go for the Triple Crown, he's healthy enough to go for two out of three.

[highnote]

What if he had won the head-bob in the Preakness and was in exactly the same condition as he is today? Do you think they'd say, "For the sake of the horse, we'll pass." I don't. So if he's healthy enough to go for the Triple Crown, he's healthy enough to go for two out of three.


Many horses never recover from the Derby let alone a Derby/Preakness double. He has nothing to gain from running in the Belmont. 2 out of 3 doesn't win the TC. Why beat the horse up? The Travers/BC double is much more important.

[ghostyapper]

Rags to riches will run so that will at least add some sparkle to the race.

[Indulto]

What if money isn't the issue? What if they just don't think Street Sense is in top condition to be competitive at 12 furlongs following a couple of hard races? I don't know their motivation. Does it do the sport any good if he runs and is totally non-competitive?As others have also pointed out, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the photo had gone the other way. I'm in favor of increasing the spacing of Triple Crown races, but until they do these are the conditions every applicant agreed to. If there weren't any complaints beforehand, there shouldn't be any now. How do you know he won't be competitive? Isn't finding out the reason they actually run races?

I'd be more worried about Borel at 12f than Street sense. Street Sense appearis to be a good horse who could still be the best of his generation, but we'll never find out if the owners won't run him.

[gIracing]

Really? I thought I read somewhere that PT was coming back to the states...he didn't like it "over there"

You might be right. Last I heard he was staying over there to train for something over there and everyone was upset because they wanted to see a rematch.

If I were team PT i wuldn't be in a hurry to come back either.. if you think about it, he has a nice gig over there.. run 2 races a year.. win one, come in 2nd in a 6 milliion dollar race... drink cosmo's the rest of the year and go to the beach. :)


If he does come back boy.. this is going to be a hell of a BC classic this year

[PaceAdvantage]

Many horses never recover from the Derby let alone a Derby/Preakness double. He has nothing to gain from running in the Belmont. 2 out of 3 doesn't win the TC. Why beat the horse up? The Travers/BC double is much more important.

Is a Travers victory more important than a Belmont Stakes victory, especially when two of the top three 3yos in the country will be running in the Belmont?

Who knows who will be running in the Travers by August....plus, from a breeding standpoint, he's already won a classic race at a classic distance of 10 furlongs. 1 1/2 miles would at least be something different to add to the resume....

[highnote]

Is a Travers victory more important than a Belmont Stakes victory, especially when two of the top three 3yos in the country will be running in the Belmont?

Who knows who will be running in the Travers by August....plus, from a breeding standpoint, he's already won a classic race at a classic distance of 10 furlongs. 1 1/2 miles would at least be something different to add to the resume....


I don't know if the Travers is more important than the Belmont. A BC Juv/KY Derby/Travers would be a nice triple, though.

The Derby is tough and risky and and it seems to me the risks of running 2 more tough races in a 3 week period outweigh the gains. I would think horses are more prone to injury when they are tired than when they are fresh and fit.

I'd love to see SS in the Belmont, too. But if I owned him, I would do a Sea Hero and point for the Travers.

[alysheba88]

According to DRF attendance was a pathetic 46,000.

[JustRalph]

Is a Travers victory more important than a Belmont Stakes victory, especially when two of the top three 3yos in the country will be running in the Belmont?

Who knows who will be running in the Travers by August....plus, from a breeding standpoint, he's already won a classic race at a classic distance of 10 furlongs. 1 1/2 miles would at least be something different to add to the resume....

I think the boys at ESPN were hammering the Belmont purse pretty hard yesterday. They made the point that more money is available in easier races down the road this summer.............I don't blame them for going after the cash.........

[kenwoodallpromos]

Due to- expanded coverage of the deaths of Barbaro, Ruffian, and Mending Fences' death; No TC attempt; 1 of the 3 top 3 finishers of the first 2 legs dropping out; Off track and internet betting; and as it turned out, the exacta won by 2 trainers suspended within the year.

[alysheba88]

Some of those are factors for sure. Except for the death of Barbaro. But wasnt that long ago that they could get 60,000 thousand plus for non TC. Last two years in fact. 46,000 is a significant drop off.

For those crying about Monmouth getting the BC I am almost positive they will draw more at the Haskell.

[alysheba88]

Higher prices and no alcohol has a lot to do with it.

Anyone think the Preakness would get their crowds if no liquor could be brought into the infield?

[DanG]

IMO… (Admittedly, a minor factor.)

I also think people underestimate the resentment the NY area has for Pletcher. If the filly was trained by Shug and was a classic homebred of the Phipps (for example), it would have been much easier to market.

I would estimate this board would have much more traffic if the above scenario was true, or if the filly ran terribly which many more people were wishing then will ever admit it. Lets face it…Pletcher is not well liked by the NY racing fan / press on a whole.

[GaryG]

If you are a casual fan it is fine to say you don't like Pletcher because of this, Asmussen because of that etc but as a serious player you just can't have those prejudices. I have certain trainers that I admire for the way they conduct themselves but when it comes to laying the money down the priorities are different. I have no problems with Pletcher on any level, so maybe it's easy for me to say.

[alysheba88]

If you are a casual fan it is fine to say you don't like Pletcher because of this, Asmussen because of that etc but as a serious player you just can't have those prejudices. I have certain trainers that I admire for the way they conduct themselves but when it comes to laying the money down the priorities are different. I have no problems with Pletcher on any level, so maybe it's easy for me to say.


Actually its the reverse. The casual fan knows little about Pletcher or Assjuiccen.

Other than they win. They dont know the dark side

[GaryG]

Actually its the reverse. The casual fan knows little about Pletcher or Assjuiccen.

Other than they win. They dont know the dark sideThe point is: When the serious player has trainers that he "hates" he severely hampers his game.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow....46k? That was it?

I was there, and it looked like more, and it definitely SOUNDED like more when RTR and Curlin battled each other through the stretch.

Definitely one of the LOUDEST 46,000 crowds I've ever been a part of....

[alysheba88]

The point is: When the serious player has trainers that he "hates" he severely hampers his game.
Cant say I agree there. Any serious player knows (or should know) to put personal feelings aside. I hate Pletcher and Asjuiccen but wouldnt not bet a horse because of them. On the contrary actually

[alysheba88]

Wow....46k? That was it?

I was there, and it looked like more, and it definitely SOUNDED like more when RTR and Curlin battled each other through the stretch.

Definitely one of the LOUDEST 46,000 crowds I've ever been a part of....

I was shocked as well. It was hard to tell from TV. Some shots I could see there werent many people.

I saw the Hansel-Strike the Gold Belmont and there were only like 42 for that one but place was loud too.

A great race and finish is great regardless of how many were there. BUut is depressing in a way. Hopefully its just a one year set back and when the whole franchise nonsense is in order they can build back up at least for the Belmont

[ihatenyra]

I am surprised that they even got 46k with the price gouging for parking, reserved tickets, and regular tickets.

Heck they even jacked up the price for a simple program. Wouldn't be surprised if they doubled the pencil fee as well.

[point given]

Higher prices and no alcohol has a lot to do with it.

Anyone think the Preakness would get their crowds if no liquor could be brought into the infield?

The higher seat prices surely kept alot away. The first 3 rows of my section and 2 adjacent were empty all day until people started moving down. Seemed like they saved them for corporate give aways and no one showed up @ $110 . Clubhouse was pretty much empty until the Acorn,Manhattan and Belmont stakes and i could pick my teller. Seems like the backyard emptied out to the frontside for these races as well.

You might be very right on the no alcohol as well. I forgot about that as a one beer type guy. BUt , you get the college crowd and say no beer and , yo man its like, lets go to see the yankees play instead. i think that this was the first year for the no alcohol rule. Me thinks this decision will be revisited next year.

[PaceAdvantage]

This certainly was NOT the first year of the no alcohol rule. It's been in place for a number of years now (at least three...maybe four).

BTW, are you allowed to bring your own alcohol into Yankee Stadium? They charge over $8 a beer there....plus how much to park your car?

I know, I know....but if you're going to bring up Yankee Stadium, full disclosure is a must.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am surprised that they even got 46k with the price gouging for parking, reserved tickets, and regular tickets.

How much is it for a seat at the Kentucky Derby? The Preakness?

Do they let you park for free at Churchill or Pimlico on the big days?

Come on...let's compare.

[PaceAdvantage]

The marketing for the Belmont sucked this year (a year it NEEDED a marketing push with no TC on the line). There were some radio spots going in the NY metro area, but that was it....I didn't see one single TV ad.....

No TV ads are most certainly due to the NYRA being cash strapped at the moment....but I'm sure this lack of exposure had something to do with the fact that approx 14,000 less showed up than was expected.

[alysheba88]

How much is it for a seat at the Kentucky Derby? The Preakness?

Do they let you park for free at Churchill or Pimlico on the big days?

Come on...let's compare.


All very true, but lets face it, the NY racing fan doesnt come out. The place is empty in the fall when you have grade ones running every weekend. When the BC is at Belmont crowd is dead compared to other spots.

Churchill and Pimlico can charge what they charge and get people to come (with no booze would be different). They know their market. NY is charging and they cant get people to come. Thats the difference.

[point given]

The marketing for the Belmont sucked this year (a year it NEEDED a marketing push with no TC on the line). There were some radio spots going in the NY metro area, but that was it....I didn't see one single TV ad.....

No TV ads are most certainly due to the NYRA being cash strapped at the moment....but I'm sure this lack of exposure had something to do with the fact that approx 14,000 less showed up than was expected.

I saw lots of "Who Do YOu Like" commercials with the Belmont tag added at the end of it. Look, racing results have been stricken from the NYTimes sports section and no regular racing coverage . The writers at the News and Post are rather poor, with the exception of the occasional Vic Ziegel column which I find off beat and witty. Look how well the Capital district papers / writers and OTB channel cover racing compared to NYC. OTOH, as pointed out, NYRA has little $$ to dole out for advertising/marketing due to the heavy loans its using just to operate. A couple of weeks ago , NYRA hired a new VP for marketing , who was the head guy for marketing the Saratoga convention bureau, lets see what he can do.
i also heard that there were some subway problems getting to the track. Not having been to the Belmont for a while, I also didnot know that the no alcohol thing was in effect for a few years. There was also the possibility of rain mentioned on the weather report, and Roger Clemens 1st start probably took some people away as well. Hopefully, this was the rock bottom and it will improve in years to come as far as attendance, ( though short teller lines are ok with me ! )

[gIracing]

i think it goes to show how discombulated NYRA is right now. when Pimlico can pull 100k out it's butt... pimlico for crying out loud, and Belmont can't pull 50k?

with a filly running

with the preakness winner running

with the undercard that they had.

pathetic

[ihatenyra]

i think it goes to show how discombulated NYRA is right now. when Pimlico can pull 100k out it's butt... pimlico for crying out loud, and Belmont can't pull 50k?

with a filly running

with the preakness winner running

with the undercard that they had.

pathetic

I couldn't agree more. With the quality of horses that ran belmont day 46k is a joke. Can't blame people for not wanting to come out though with how they get nickel and dimed. I wouldn't be surprised if NYRA starts charging next year for the shuttle from the backstretch.

[ihatenyra]

Due to- expanded coverage of the deaths of Barbaro, Ruffian, and Mending Fences' death; No TC attempt; 1 of the 3 top 3 finishers of the first 2 legs dropping out; Off track and internet betting; and as it turned out, the exacta won by 2 trainers suspended within the year.

I would say of all the excuses you gave only no tc attempt was legit. But its a pretty sad state when you can only draw when a horse is going for a triple crown. I feel bad for how ny racing is gonna look in the fall, you know "championship meet"?

[point given]

I would say of all the excuses you gave only no tc attempt was legit. But its a pretty sad state when you can only draw when a horse is going for a triple crown. I feel bad for how ny racing is gonna look in the fall, you know "championship meet"?

Sometimes like an addict, an organization has to hit rock bottom before it rebounds. The Bounce Theory. Such is NYRA and horse racing in general. But, there is such an inherent lack of cooperation and leadership, with no commissioner and league office , that its like herding cats.

[samyn on the green]

I couldn't agree more. With the quality of horses that ran belmont day 46k is a joke. Can't blame people for not wanting to come out though with how they get nickel and dimed. I wouldn't be surprised if NYRA starts charging next year for the shuttle from the backstretch.General admission was $5 to walk in the door and take in the day. There was no nickel and diming. Did you know that general admission for the KY Derby is $50?

Also consider that Pimlico charges $40 to get in and you can BYOB. But thousands and thousands are fan filler, not betting, just getting drunk on cheap beer and hoping to get a glipse of some 18 YO college bimbo flashing her breasts. The Belmont is the clear class of the three triple crown days.

The numbers look disappointing but the races, the excitement and the crowd was all very thrilling on track. Very load grandstand all day, especially for the Belmont Stakes.

[PaceAdvantage]

I couldn't agree more.

Of course you couldn't. And I see you didn't want to compare...just bitch.

[PaceAdvantage]

General admission was $5 to walk in the door and take in the day. There was no nickel and diming. Did you know that general admission for the KY Derby is $50?

Thank you. I noticed the ihatenyra dude ignored my question.