Pino Off Hard Spun, Gomez on

[classhandicapper]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/85259.html

[Millpond68]

Jones is sucking up to Porter to keep the horse, something Servis would not do.

[cj's dad]

Mario has has 27000+ rides and has won @ 15.2%. He has an in the $$$ % of 42% !!!

I find it amazing that in a non triple crown year, the owner/trainer or whoever would make the decision to remove Pino from this horse. Can any of you see Hard Spun getting 1 1/2 miles?? Seriously, I can't but then again I've obviously been wrong before.

Spectacular Bid (arguably, the greatest race horse of all time) and Ronnie Franklin !!! Now there was a jockey who should have been removed prior to Belmont day !! IMHO !!

[Tom]

You think any other rider would have seen the safety pin and avoided it???
:lol::lol::lol:

[point given]

I 'm still wondering about Stewart Elliots ride on Smarty Jones, and oh that Desormeaux ride on Real Quiet ? The owner has the prerogative and he wasnot happy. Gogo, has Belmont experience, and is a top national rider. I had thought either Prado, JR, or Gogo would get the mount. Sure Pino has 5900 wins, so how many does Russel Baze have ? Yet when the money is down for a big race, the big jocks get the mounts. Doesn't mean Mario or Baze aren't good riders. But if Pimlico was Pino home track and Belmont is not and the ride was questioned, why not ? I'd do the same thing.

[joeyreb]

Why wouldn't you want the Best Jockey in country on your horse??

Gomez over Pino, no brainer.... Positive Jockey move to me

Pino should have lost the mount after the Preakness

[kenwoodallpromos]

I thought "jockey messed up the ride" was one of the standard excuses to owners for bad training?
Personally, I think Gomez OR Pino could get 12f first- but maybe not the horse.

[gIracing]

although I don't thin Gogo is the BEST jockey in the world, one thing he won't do is LOSE a race for you.. that much you can bank on. if he has the horse, he can get it home.




I saw a ride today at churchill that made me want to throw up by SB

[john del riccio]

although I don't thin Gogo is the BEST jockey in the world, one thing he won't do is LOSE a race for you.. that much you can bank on. if he has the horse, he can get it home.




I saw a ride today at churchill that made me want to throw up by SB

Lets not forget Gomez won two BC races at BEL and almost a 3rd if he doesn't get a little traffic in the sprint. Pino may have moved too soon but this horse has been trained for speed, not stamina. I think he may be suspect in the BEL no matter who rides him. 1 1/2 mi is a long way. Remeber, COMMENDABLE won this race and he wasn't exactly a world beater ....its a tricky distance.

John

[LRL Racing]

Obviously you do not know Larry Jones as he has never sucked up to any owner and NEVER will!!!

[cj's dad]

You think any other rider would have seen the safety pin and avoided it???
:lol::lol::lol:

You think Franklin might have made a tactical mistake in getting hooked up with a speed freak( I seem to remember the horse was 70/1 or so) in the first part of the race ?

[gIracing]

the more I think about it, the more I don't like this


Pino made the same conclusion that everyone in america made..... that he isn't going to out kick Street Sense (or probably even Curlin) in a duel... he just doesn't have that kinda horse.

If you wrote the perfect trip for hard spun it's to get about 5 lenghts going into the stretch and let them come get you, and hope your horse has enough to make it to the wire first. He he isn't going to lull them to sleep and then try to out kick street sense home, you can hang that up

With that in mind, I can see why he made his move as early as he did... my only regret is that he didn't push him to get out farther than he did, it was his ONLY chance of winning..

[Valuist]

Mario has has 27000+ rides and has won @ 15.2%. He has an in the $$$ % of 42% !!!

I find it amazing that in a non triple crown year, the owner/trainer or whoever would make the decision to remove Pino from this horse. Can any of you see Hard Spun getting 1 1/2 miles?? Seriously, I can't but then again I've obviously been wrong before.

Spectacular Bid (arguably, the greatest race horse of all time) and Ronnie Franklin !!! Now there was a jockey who should have been removed prior to Belmont day !! IMHO !!

I realize Pino has won a lot of races, but on small stages. He really crapped the bed in the Preakness; an absolutely dreadful ride. What the hell was he thinking? He may have been the best horse in the Preakness......and with the switch to Gomez, I would not be shocked at all if he turned the tables on Curlin.

[jotb]

Hello all:

The only possible reason Pino is off has to be because of the Preakness ride but I really didn't hear anything bad about the Derby ride. So here we have a rider (Pino) that has been on this horse from the day one and now the connections want to make a change. This I know for a fact really hurts a jockey. A rider that has been with a horse from day one can become attached to the horse and no matter what Pino will say about this come Belmont Day he will feel it. It's funny that in baseball you can make a couple of errors and go 0-5 in a game and the next day you are in the lineup but this sport is much different. There is no room for error for these riders and most of the time they are the ones that usually pay the price when something goes wrong.

I'm not going to say who I feel is the better rider but they have both been around a long time riding and winning alot of races. This is the Belmont Stakes and the distance is the type you rarely see each day and some riders never ever ride at this distance in their career but we have 2 riders that have experienced this distance over the years. Since 1999 Pino and Gomez have rode at this distance however they both lack the experience at the distance at Belmont. Gomez has rode only one race at the distance and he was off the board and Pino has only ridden at Belmont 3 times period and 2 of them were sprint races.

Since 1999 Gomez has rode at the distance 43 times with 10 wins, 7 place, and 8 show (win 23.2% and 58.1% ITM) . Since 1999 Pino has rode at the distance 35 times with 12 wins, 7 place, and 4 show (win 34.2% and 65.7% ITM). The way I see this is both riders have a good grasp on this distance but I give the edge to Gomez for the experience over the Belmont strip. Without a doubt, Pino knows the horse better than Gomez and if I owned this horse Pino would have been in the post parade for the Belmont this year.

Best regards,
Joe

[46zilzal]

I realize Pino has won a lot of races, but on small stages. He really crapped the bed in the Preakness; an absolutely dreadful ride. What the hell was he thinking? He may have been the best horse in the Preakness......and with the switch to Gomez, I would not be shocked at all if he turned the tables on Curlin.
When you are stuck with a ONE dimensional horse you have to gamble since everyone and their brother KNOWS what you HAVE TO DO TO WIN i.e. War Emblem and many many others. The pace set up in Baltimore doomed this colt not the rider.

Hard Spun will be up on the lead again, but there are two that will pass him like a cheap claimer: Curlin and the little lady. His last three are a perfect pattern to show he has hit the wall, distance wise.

[JustRalph]

Hello all:
It's funny that in baseball you can make a couple of errors and go 0-5 in a game and the next day you are in the lineup but this sport is much different. There is no room for error for these riders and most of the time they are the ones that usually pay the price when something goes wrong.

Joe, bad comparison. It's one of my pet peeves. There are mutliple beat writers for every single baseball team. They can lay into a guy anytime they want. And they usually do. A guy goes 0-5 for a couple of days and he hears about it in the paper and online. In the big towns (NY, PHilly, Boston) it actually keeps some guys from playing for certain teams. It is well known that guys have declined offers from major teams because of the press coverage. I actually heard Paul O'neill talk about this once in a private setting. He said he thought long and hard about it when he went to the yankees and he said it does effect guys.

Jocks on the other hand, get away with just about everything. Truly bad rides in the biggest races are talked about i.e. this thread, but on a daily basis riders screw up or do something stupid all the time. Dropping a whip? Getting trapped behind horses with the 3/5 shot........etc.....etc...........

But there is nobody covering it. I think there should be. I wish there was. I think it would be good for the sport.

[jotb]

Joe, bad comparison. It's one of my pet peeves. There are mutliple beat writers for every single baseball team. They can lay into a guy anytime they want. And they usually do. A guy goes 0-5 for a couple of days and he hears about it in the paper and online. In the big towns (NY, PHilly, Boston) it actually keeps some guys from playing for certain teams. It is well known that guys have declined offers from major teams because of the press coverage. I actually heard Paul O'neill talk about this once in a private setting. He said he thought long and hard about it when he went to the yankees and he said it does effect guys.

Jocks on the other hand, get away with just about everything. Truly bad rides in the biggest races are talked about i.e. this thread, but on a daily basis riders screw up or do something stupid all the time. Dropping a whip? Getting trapped behind horses with the 3/5 shot........etc.....etc...........

But there is nobody covering it. I think there should be. I wish there was. I think it would be good for the sport.

Hello Just Ralph:

Don't take this bad Ralph but honestly you don't have a clue what jockeys go through. It's not really the jockeys that screw up but rather the horses are the ones that can be goof balls. Do you have any idea how many horses dislike getting the dirt kicked up at them? Do you know how many horses dislike being down on the inside? Yes, sometimes jockeys can get trapped behind horses but they are also waiting for a seam to open. I rather see a jock do that than alter course losing lengths only to finish 2nd. Dropping the whip has to be a very low percentage overall for jocks considering the amount of races and tracks running each day and for the record the stick is way overrated. Once a horse has excreted all of it's energy the stick is useless. Come to think of it, I believe the whip is what causes many infractions in the running of a race because the horse is either lugging in or bearing out in the stretch but to the racing public if you are not using the stick then the jock stiffed the horse. By the way, when ball players get torn apart by writers on line or in newspapers they still get their billion dollar contracts but when a jock is labeled as a bad jock he or she loses all their business. Jockeys should be making alot of money for the amount of work they do each day. They make nothing compared to other professional sports and their lives are on the line everytime they get on a horse.

Joe

[Indulto]

... It's not really the jockeys that screw up but rather the horses are the ones that can be goof balls. Do you have any idea how many horses dislike getting the dirt kicked up at them? Do you know how many horses dislike being down on the inside? Yes, sometimes jockeys can get trapped behind horses but they are also waiting for a seam to open. I rather see a jock do that than alter course losing lengths only to finish 2nd.

... Jockeys should be making alot of money for the amount of work they do
each day. They make nothing compared to other professional sports and their lives are on the line everytime they get on a horse.jotb,
Please give us some idea of what genuinely constitutes a jockey error that trainers consider unforgiveable, and how they can occur.

There have been a lot of complaints on this board about jockeys repeatedly taking their mounts wide. When is that excusable and when isn't it?

What proposals are or have been considered to change the current mount fee/purse distribution model that would be more amenable to jocks (and their agents)?

[JustRalph]

Hello Just Ralph:

Don't take this bad Ralph but honestly you don't have a clue what jockeys go through. It's not really the jockeys that screw up but rather the horses are the ones that can be goof balls. Do you have any idea how many horses dislike getting the dirt kicked up at them? Do you know how many horses dislike being down on the inside? Yes, sometimes jockeys can get trapped behind horses but they are also waiting for a seam to open. I rather see a jock do that than alter course losing lengths only to finish 2nd. Dropping the whip has to be a very low percentage overall for jocks considering the amount of races and tracks running each day and for the record the stick is way overrated. Once a horse has excreted all of it's energy the stick is useless. Come to think of it, I believe the whip is what causes many infractions in the running of a race because the horse is either lugging in or bearing out in the stretch but to the racing public if you are not using the stick then the jock stiffed the horse. By the way, when ball players get torn apart by writers on line or in newspapers they still get their billion dollar contracts but when a jock is labeled as a bad jock he or she loses all their business. Jockeys should be making alot of money for the amount of work they do each day. They make nothing compared to other professional sports and their lives are on the line everytime they get on a horse.

Joe

I don't disagree with much of what you say. When you talk about what jocks go thru. I am just saying that it is a bad comparison. Jocks don't get the public heat the B_ball players do. So they don't have the same kind of pressure etc. They don't have as many eyes on them with a laptop in hand, just waiting to tear them apart publicly.

[Valuist]

When you are stuck with a ONE dimensional horse you have to gamble since everyone and their brother KNOWS what you HAVE TO DO TO WIN i.e. War Emblem and many many others. The pace set up in Baltimore doomed this colt not the rider.

Hard Spun will be up on the lead again, but there are two that will pass him like a cheap claimer: Curlin and the little lady. His last three are a perfect pattern to show he has hit the wall, distance wise.

Watch a replay of the Preakness. Early and midway on the backstretch, Hard Spun was in excellent position. Then before the far turn, Pino guns him to the front in the middle of a 1:09 and change opening 6f. Was totally unnecessary. The fact that the horse was only beaten by 4 with such a bad ride leads me to believe he would've been right there at the finish with a rider who had a brain.

[46zilzal]

Watch a replay of the Preakness.
watched it several times. The race played out exactly as predicted: the pace got him. I admired the way that Hard Spun was able to rate much better than I predicted.

Unless he is ALL alone on the lead Saturday, he will fold up big time.

[jotb]

Watch a replay of the Preakness. Early and midway on the backstretch, Hard Spun was in excellent position. Then before the far turn, Pino guns him to the front in the middle of a 1:09 and change opening 6f. Was totally unnecessary. The fact that the horse was only beaten by 4 with such a bad ride leads me to believe he would've been right there at the finish with a rider who had a brain.

Hello Valuist:

You say "Pino guns him to the front in the middle of a 1:09" but the race comment says, HARD SPUN broke a bit slowly, was under a firm hold while ranging up in the early stages, advanced five wide into the backstretch, made a STRONG MIDDLE MOVE under a STRONG HOLD from outside along the backstretch, opened a clear lead on the far turn, set the pace into upper stretch and weakened under pressure through the final eighth. The race comment makes it sound like he was "dragged to the front".

Joe

[jotb]

jotb,
Please give us some idea of what genuinely constitutes a jockey error that trainers consider unforgiveable, and how they can occur.

There have been a lot of complaints on this board about jockeys repeatedly taking their mounts wide. When is that excusable and when isn't it?

What proposals are or have been considered to change the current mount fee/purse distribution model that would be more amenable to jocks (and their agents)?

I can tell you the biggest error for a jockey is when a trainer feels the rider never let the horse run. As far as, "unforgiveable" to some trainers it can be. Another jockey error has to be "not following the trainers instructions" especially when there was not 1 excuse for not following the instructions. Sometimes you can't ride to the instructions because breaking from the gate can throw all that out and the rider has to ride to the best of his ability the rest of the way. I know one particuliar trainer that instructs the jock to ride the rail no matter what. He's a stickler for saving ground. He's the type of trainer that will fire you forever if you don't ride the rail. I think that is absurd because not every horse likes to be there but he don't care.

There is not much in the way of changing the current pay scale for riders but I believe that a ride should make more money for not hitting the board. Mount fees at the track when I'm at range from $45 to $105 depending on the purse but 98% of the time the mount fee is usually between $45 and $65. There are many jocks and I mean many jocks that maybe ride 3 races a night and are not on "live horses". For an example like this say the jock rides 3 races and does not hit the board and makes $50 for each mount. He made $150 and now has to distribute 25% to the agent, pay 5% to the valet, $9 to the jocks guild and pay taxes. On top of it, don't forget that the jock has been getting on these horses in the morning and then has to ride at night and could wind up in race 10 at 11:30PM. That's a long day for that kind of money for a professional athlete. There are about 2000 riders in the country and a high percentage are this way. If a jock does not win a few races a week (2 or 3 at least), the jock is starving. A jock gets 10% of the 60% the owner gets if they win a race which is good money if the purses are good. I think the place and show needs to be changed from 5% to at least 10%. The 5% they get for place and show is 20% of what the owner gets. If the purse is 9k and the horse runs 2nd the owner gets $1,800 and the jock makes $90. This gives you some idea of what a jockey makes and I believe that a jockey should be making more money. What do you think?

Best regards,
Joe

[cnollfan]

I was told that when Rags to Riches entered the Belmont, Gomez tried to get out of his commitment on Hard Spun because he is R2R's regular, but Jones wouldn't let him out. IMHO, this is a mistake by Jones. If I were an owner/trainer and a jockey came to me and said he didn't want to ride my horse any more, I would thank him for his honesty. The last thing I would want is a rider who wasn't 100% committed to my horse.

It's a seven-horse field in New York! If they want Pino off after his bad ride in the Preakness, fine (I wouldn't fire him now but I don't blame them) but let Gomez ride the filly and find any one of a half-dozen other very capable jockeys to take over, riders who would be thrilled to be on a Belmont contender instead of wishing they were elsewhere.

[Hosshead]

If what you say is true, then Gomez was obviously thinking of the future $'s from riding RtoR.
However the connections for RtoR should understand that Garrett was already commited to HS before they decided to run RtoR.
If the trainer for HS (as you said) would not let Gomez out of his commitment, then it's because he (and everybody else) knows that Gomez is a professional, and will ride HS the best he can, just like he would do with any other horse.

If I was the connections for RtoR, I'd put Gomez back on her after the Belmont, just like nothing had happened.

Can you imagine (in the same situation) Shoemaker, Pincay, or McCarron NOT riding their mount as best they can ? --- No way.
During a race, they are 100% committed to whoever they ride.
IMO I think Gomez would do the same.

[Tom]

Big difference in the new rider. Big diffeence.
I'd rather he went out and made them come get him.
He wasn't trying to win today, he was trying not to lose.

[Spendabuck85]

So who gets on RTR for her next race? Johnnie V or Gomez

[o_crunk]

from way out in left field with this comment....but i thought gomez stiffed this horse big time. these guys have clocks in their head and after a 50 half he should have let the horse leave it on the track instead of holding, holding.

maybe he wouldn't have won the race, but to me there is a big difference between being headed at the top of the stretch and being headed at the 1/16th pole...give the horse a chance. given the fractions i would have wanted to have at least 5 lengths on the fireld turning for home and hope for the best....there's no way the horse wins the race using gomez' strategy.

could be wrong about that....but just commenting on what i saw live...haven't seen a replay yet.

[Greyfox]

The universe unfolded as it should.

[Pell Mell]

Somethings wrong with my TV, they showed the Blue Grass at Belmont.

[Tom]

Champion fractions, for sure! :lol:

[cnollfan]

from way out in left field with this comment....but i thought gomez stiffed this horse big time. these guys have clocks in their head and after a 50 half he should have let the horse leave it on the track instead of holding, holding.

maybe he wouldn't have won the race, but to me there is a big difference between being headed at the top of the stretch and being headed at the 1/16th pole...give the horse a chance. given the fractions i would have wanted to have at least 5 lengths on the fireld turning for home and hope for the best....there's no way the horse wins the race using gomez' strategy.

could be wrong about that....but just commenting on what i saw live...haven't seen a replay yet.

I'm sticking with my original take. Gomez didn't want to ride Hard Spun, so he pretended he was riding Rags to Riches instead. Talk about trying to pound a square peg into a round hole!

[Greyfox]

I'm sticking with my original take. Gomez didn't want to ride Hard Spun, so he pretended he was riding Rags to Riches instead. Talk about trying to pound a square peg into a round hole!

Wrong. And go for a walk. If Gomez could have won that race he would have.
He gave that colt the best ride that he could have.
The universe unfolded as it should, and did.
Jockey's don't pretend to ride other horses?
In the Triple Crown, they don't Clown.
It's Just that simple!

[cj's dad]

Mario ran 2nd in the derby-big field, 3rd in the Preakness-medium field, GG ran 4th today-small field--- go figure ?!?!?

I for one bought into the philosophy of a jock improve despite having defended Mario earlier- screwed up again !! :confused:

[ELA]

Some lLudicrous comments here. Gomez, like every other jock in the race is a professional. Like them or not, win or lose -- the guy rode his race the way he rode his race. It's so easy -- the easiest thing in the sport -- to ride a horse from the comfort of your own home. I laugh when people say -- why didn't he do this, or why didn't he do that -- there is a simple answer, actually a few. One, either he didn't want to. Two, he couldn't. Three, he made a mistake. The majority of the time, a very high % of people run with # 3.
Ron made the call to try and get off Hard Spun. Jones, according to Jones himself, wouldn't let him out of the call. So be it. Even though Ron made the call with no hesitation, the answer on the other end of the phone had no bearing on the jocks efforts.

Eric

[JustRalph]

I thought for sure this horse, Hard Spun, was going to regress. He was ripe for it........

[GMB@BP]

you dont take a speed horse and have him rate off a slow pace. Speed horse need to set decent paces if you ask me, its what makes them affective, sure you might steal something from time to time, but in general solid speed horses run other horses off their feet. I think it was a tactical mistake to run in the race, and then run the strategy they did.

[o_crunk]

Some lLudicrous comments here. Gomez, like every other jock in the race is a professional. Like them or not, win or lose -- the guy rode his race the way he rode his race. It's so easy -- the easiest thing in the sport -- to ride a horse from the comfort of your own home. I laugh when people say -- why didn't he do this, or why didn't he do that -- there is a simple answer, actually a few. One, either he didn't want to. Two, he couldn't. Three, he made a mistake. The majority of the time, a very high % of people run with # 3.
Ron made the call to try and get off Hard Spun. Jones, according to Jones himself, wouldn't let him out of the call. So be it. Even though Ron made the call with no hesitation, the answer on the other end of the phone had no bearing on the jocks efforts.

Eric

look, i'm definetely giving this the 'monday morning quarterback' treatment to my critique of his ride and i don't doubt that gomez gave it a valid shot, just that his tack was all wrong here. if i'm looking at this horse's form i see he is most effective from the front....

this race here was just an experiment in rating. it's a no win situation for jones....public observes a horse who ran into very wicked paces and comes up a tad short. so the natural thing is to test the rate angle with a top notch switch.

it just didn't turn out to be the strategy i would have expected out of the jock switch....after the first half of this race the first thing i thought of was hard spun being pace comprimised. either we've seen the very best of this horse or nobody has figured him out yet. natch, just IMHO.

[Pell Mell]

Hard Spun has been mishandled big time. All his best races have been on the front end and yet they keep trying to lay off the pace. Taking away his speed is like taking away a boxers jab. I'm sure Gomez had orders to lay back because he must have known how slow they were going. The owner should have switched trainers not the jockey.:bang: :bang:

[Bruddah]

to read Larry Jones take on the race. He blamed the Oaklawn track in the Southwest Stakes. His tactics in that race were to stalk a moderate pace. The first time Hardspun had tried those tactics. Yet the speedster Tueflesberg wins the race. Seems to me, Larry Jones might be looking for a new scapegoat. Simply, this horse(HS) is better running first, no worse than second in the race (JMHO)

[cnollfan]

Wrong. And go for a walk. If Gomez could have won that race he would have.
He gave that colt the best ride that he could have.
The universe unfolded as it should, and did.
Jockey's don't pretend to ride other horses?
In the Triple Crown, they don't Clown.
It's Just that simple!

Strangling a horse like Hard Spun behind a half mile in 50 seconds is not giving him the best chance to win in my opinion. Maybe Gomez was following orders. Nonetheless, I think the horse would have been better served in the Belmont running the first half mile in 49 under Eibar Coa, Cornelio Velasquez, etc.

I did not mean to imply that Gomez made a conscious effort to make Hard Spun lose. But I do think psychological intangibles are a factor, and based on the reaction on this board, a factor that is not given enough weight by the betting public. I don't want a jockey riding my horse who tells me he wants to ride someone else's horse instead.

[Greyfox]

At the top of the class ladder, the horses are very adaptable when it comes to running style. They can go to the front, or come from behind.
They are not cheap "need to lead" runners with one style.
Hard Spun was doomed entering the race. He could have taken the front, he could have tried from behind. He only had so much energy to expend on this particular day. Any way you look at it he was not going to beat the top two runners yesterday. Maybe next fall in a shorter race he might.

[chickenhead]

Any way you look at it he was not going to beat the top two runners yesterday. Maybe next fall in a shorter race he might.

Bingo. I agree with all who say the tactics weren't conducive for Hard Spun running his best race, but I understand why they wanted to try something different. I just wish he was gonna stick around for another year, he'd be a monster 9F handicap horse.

[46zilzal]

Bingo. I agree with all who say the tactics weren't conducive for Hard Spun running his best race, but I understand why they wanted to try something different. I just wish he was gonna stick around for another year, he'd be a monster 9F handicap horse.

Took the words right out of my mouth!

[jotb]

Hello all:

Below are all the race comments for HARD SPUN'S races. Please read them! The Belmont, Preakness, and Southwest races tells a story abouth this horse. He lost each of these races but won every other race except the DERBY when he finished 2nd and just lost to a better horse. This horse wants to run freely on his own and can't undertand why sometimes the jocks want to fight him every step of the way. There is certainly a lack of communication between rider and horse and if the riders continue in the future to ride this horse (fighting him like they do) eventually they will take the heart away from him. Everyone here should keep in mind that HARD SPUN was a late foal (MAY 10TH) which means he just turned a 3yo after the Derby. Does everyone here think he's reached his maturity. This horse is just learning how to run and knows how to run if left alone but I think the riders, or trainer and perhaps owner want him to do something that he's not capable of doing yet or maybe never.

Belmont Stakes Grade 1. HARD SPUN raced erratically while fighting his rider and tucking in a bit in the early stages, drifted out on the first turn, stalked the leaders five wide along the backstretch, continued wide while lodging a mild bid to threaten approaching the quarter pole then tired through the final quarter of a mile. " RACED ERRATICALLY FIGHTING RIDER"


Preakness Grade 1. HARD SPUN broke a bit slowly, was under a firm hold while ranging up in the early stages, advanced five wide into the backstretch, made a strong middle move under a strong hold from outside along the backstretch, opened a clear lead on the far turn, set the pace into upper stretch and weakened under pressure through the final eighth.
"WAS UNDER FIRM HOLD, MADE A STRONG MIDDLE MOVE UNDER STRONG HOLD"



Kentucky Derby Grade 1.HARD SPUN worked his way in two wide to vie for the lead early, gained the lead soon after going a quarter while racing in hand, edged clear entering the backstretch while carefully handled, increased his advantage to be well clear into the upper stretch, bobbled leaving the eighth pole, angled outside of STREET SENSE in the late going and wasn't a match for that one as second best. "GAINED LEAD SOON AFTER QUARTER MILE"



Lanes's End Stake Grade 2.HARD SPUN pressed the pace three wide while restrained, took over on the second turn on his own initiative, responded willingly in the stretch when asked and increased his lead under steady urging
"TOOK OVER ON THE SECOND TURN ON HIS OWN INITATIVE"



Southwest Stake.HARD SPUN taken in hand at the start, five then four wide through the first turn while continued to be restrained, loomed closer four wide to become a threat in the second turn, failed to sustain that effort in the drive. "FIVE THEN FOUR WIDE THROUGH THE FIRST TURN WHILE CONTINUED TO BE RESTRAINED"



LeComte Stake Grade 3. HARD SPUN clear early, repulsed a bid from TEUFLESBERG around the second turn, shook clear and then increased his margin. "CLEAR EARLY"



Pennsylvania Nursery Stake.HARD SPUN rated close to the early pace inside, took over passing the nine sixteenths pole then steadily increased his lead to the wire to win handily.
"TOOK OVER PASSING THE NINE SIXTEENTHS"



Port Penn Stake.HARD SPUN didn't break sharp then was swung out behind MISTER JON and sent up to gain the lead from that one with a half mile remaining, shook clear in upper stretch then was ridden out to pull away in the final furlong." SENT UP TO GAIN LEAD WITH HALF MILE REMAINING"



MSW "FIRST TIME OUT" HARD SPUN broke sharp, set a quick pace under confident handling then drew off after three furlongs to win in handy fashion. "SET A QUICK PACE UNDER CONFIDENT HANDLING"

Best regards,
Joe

[Tom]

Hard Spun has been mishandled big time. All his best races have been on the front end and yet they keep trying to lay off the pace. Taking away his speed is like taking away a boxers jab. I'm sure Gomez had orders to lay back because he must have known how slow they were going. The owner should have switched trainers not the jockey.:bang: :bang:

So true. He didn't almost win the Derby playing safe behind a slow pace - he took it to them and beat 18 of them that way.

[Greyfox]

Jones not totally happy with Gomez' ride.
He wanted slow fractions, and the front.


“Everything seems okay, he’s just a little tired,” Jones said. “There’s nothing we can do but lick our wounds and see what happens later down the road. The pace was very slow. I thought that was our game plan leaving the paddock: to have these kinds of fractions, but be in front doing it. Apparently, we had a miscommunication somewhere. I know C P West and Slew’s Tizzy that were on the front finished behind us, so I don’t know how much slower you can get it and still hang out there."

[Greyfox]

Gomez' comments after the race were:

" My main concern was getting him around there for the first five furlongs. He was a little rank, but we went in 50 seconds. At the half-mile pole, I felt I was in a great spot. At the three-eighths pole, I thought I had the money. But when it came time to sprint, he just didn't have the turn of foot the others had. "

[cj]

Hard Spun was never winning that race yesterday. Whether first or last, going fast or slow, he was no way in hell winning.

As for this theory I keep seeing that he could have went faster and sapped the other horses, it is foolish. He may very well kill the other speed horses, but no way was this going to bother the closers. A speed horse is never going to beat better horses by running even faster early if those horses are not also speed types.

[JustRalph]

Hard Spun was never winning that race yesterday. Whether first or last, going fast or slow, he was no way in hell winning.

As for this theory I keep seeing that he could have went faster and sapped the other horses, it is foolish. He may very well kill the other speed horses, but no way was this going to bother the closers. A speed horse is never going to beat better horses by running even faster early if those horses are not also speed types.

I agree. For reference,,,,,,,, see Funny Cide in 75% of his races after the triple crown..................at least when they let him run....................

[classhandicapper]

I'm going to say the same things I keep saying.

1. Hard Spun can rate and did so again yesterday. He tried to get himself into the race twice yesterday because they were going so darn slow and he has a lot of speed, but Gomez was strong enough and skilled to keep him behind horses and in a relaxed gate. Had it not been a 12F race and instead had a more typical route pace, his job would have been easier.

2. You have to seperate the horse's ability relative to Curlin, Street Sense, and now Rags to Riches from his ability to rate and win.

3. Had he gotten yesterday's ride in the Preakness, he would have finished very well and certainly been closer to the top two, but he may not have beaten them because they may just be better. That says nothing about his ability to rate and finish well or win. It says something about the fact that Pino gave him an idiotic ride by going on a suicide mission into a hot pace.

4. IMO, yesterday's loss had nothing to do with rating or running style. It was more a function of distance. The horse made a very nice wide bid on the turn nearing the 10F point when the pace picked up. So he can finish after rating, he just can't run his best going 10F-12F against Grade 1 animals.

5. IMO, running yesterday was probably a major error and at a minimum a big risk. Even Jones admited prior to the race that 12F was a question mark. So why take a shot at a Grade 1 at 12F with a horse that has been in training since last fall without a break, when you can freshen him up and point to the Haskell at 9F. Then you could take them on under better conditions for you when you are at your best and they may be using the race as a semi-prep for the Travers or be worn out.

6. I said this before the race. They might ruin him for the rest of the year if they run in the Belmont after such a long and tough campaign. Right now I make it 90% that they have a dead tired horse in their barn today and at least 50% he remains off form unless given a very good and long rest.

It's a shame. I wasn't a fan of this horse all spring and didn't like him in the Derby at all. In fact I pretty much hated him. He made me a fan with his effort that day. He worked hard to get the lead (see how Teuflesberg and Stormello came back yesterday after chasing his pace in the Derby and getting destroyed by him). It took a trip that must have had the blessing of God for SS to beat him that day. What's not to like?

Then he got a disasterous ride and then he ran at the wrong distance.

He's not the best horse in the world. He's not even the best 3YO. But he's a very good horse that got handled terribly from the day he worked 22 44 to yesterday.

[cj]

1) I have never said Hard Spun can't rate behind horses. I said he can't rate behind horses and beat top class runners like Curlin and Street Sense and now Rags to Riches.

2) I'm interested in what he can do against horses he is entered against.

3) It was impossible to get that ride in the Preakness. To get that same ride, he would have been right next to Curlin and Street Sense near the back of the pack. If he does that, he gets beaten again easily.

4) Isn't that what mattered these last two races? Who cares what he can do at 9f against G3 horses? He'll be 1 to 10.

5) No argument it was a bad spot. This horse was never going to go 1 1/2 miles.

6) I don't see why he won't come back strong. I have never been one to buy into this racing ruins horses stuff. If it did, Teufelsburg would be dead.

I still don't see what was so horrible about Pino's ride. Was it the best ride ever? Of course not. It was an average ride in my opinion, and certainly not worthy of your adjectives.

[Tom]

I'm going to say the same things I keep saying.

1. Hard Spun can rate and did so again yesterday.


And didn't hit the board. When he goes our there, he does.
So yes, I agree, he can rate. Just can't win doing it.
:rolleyes:

[cj]

This is like saying Groovy could go 1 1/8 miles. Of course he could, if you drop him low enough down the ladder. Anything I said about Hard Spun related to the fields he would face in the Preakness and Belmont. He had no chance in either in my opinion, and it turned out I was right.

Most times, the results tell you if your opinion was right or wrong. I saw nothing in these races that would make me look past the results with Hard Spun.

[classhandicapper]

The general discussion wasn't framed the way you are suggesting now. Some people (not specifically you) weren't saying he's not as good as Curlin or Steet Sense. They were saying he was unrateable, dragged Pino to the lead in the Preakness, should be sent because he's a speed horse, can't finish well if he rates, has a pace profile that suggests he can't finish etc....

I have disagreed with that and also think looking at the results of Derby/Preakness to make that determination is an error because of the unique circumstances of those races.

To be clear, I didn't like him at all yesterday at that price. I thought 12F was probably outside his range and he was the horse most likely to go backwards because of his long hard campaign. Rating, his ability relative to Curlin, etc... were not major factors in that.

The ideal Preakness ride I was referring to would not have been to match the Belmont fractions. I'm not even sure the Belmont ride was ideal from a pace perspective. It was ideal from the point of view of when to make a move. Had Pino moved in the Preakness when Gomez moved in the Belmont, IMO Hard Spun would have run a better race and finished much closer. He "may" have even won. I see no reason to not at least consider the possibility considering it was a 9.5F race and it took a perfect trip for SS to beat him at 10F.

No one is going to convince me he was dragged that day. I think yesterday demonstrated conclusively that a competent and strong rider can conserve his speed "when appropriate" and then move "when appropriate" and get some run out of him.

The Belmont was just the wrong spot to prove how close in ability he is to the top 2/3 at shorter distances.

He may come back well. However, I've learned (with a the help of a really good handicapper) that many horses do wear out after long hard campaigns. IMO, that's a more reliable pattern than "bouncing" for example. Some horses are more rugged than others and will continue to thrive. But if you are planning a late summer and fall campaign you want to do what Carl N is doing with Street Sense. SS is obviously WAY fresher than HS who has been racing since last fall, yet he still chose to pass.

Over the long haul, if you viewed the PPs of 100 top stakes horses taking SS's path and 100 top horses taking HS's path, I think you'll find that way more of the fresh horses continue to develop or fire peak efforts later in the year and way more of the heavily raced ones head south at some point and don't recover their best form as the year moves on.

It's a probability thing. I'm estimating it's 50-50 that he continues to develop from here (which could be way off) but all else being equal, I'd definitely rather be in SS's shoes than HS's shoes later in the year given the way the two horses have been handled.

The smartest thing they can do with HS right now is nothing.

[classhandicapper]

This is like saying Groovy could go 1 1/8 miles. Of course he could, if you drop him low enough down the ladder. Anything I said about Hard Spun related to the fields he would face in the Preakness and Belmont. He had no chance in either in my opinion, and it turned out I was right.

Most times, the results tell you if your opinion was right or wrong. I saw nothing in these races that would make me look past the results with Hard Spun.

CJ,

All I am saying is that there is nothing inherent about his style or ability that made him a toss in the Preakness or Belmont. In one race the trip gave him no shot and in the other the distance gave him no shot.

You are taking credit for disliking him the Preakness when one of the horses that beat him moved forward (you didn't like Curlin either) and you are giving no credit at all to the fact that he had a much tougher trip than SS in the Preakness and would have beaten him in the Derby if SS didn't get a gift from God trip as a closer.

We've beaten this one to death. We'll have to agree to disagree on the analysis of these races and HS's chances going into the Preakness (not after the fact when we saw how good Curlin was going to get).

[cnollfan]

Jones not totally happy with Gomez' ride.
He wanted slow fractions, and the front.


“Everything seems okay, he’s just a little tired,” Jones said. “There’s nothing we can do but lick our wounds and see what happens later down the road. The pace was very slow. I thought that was our game plan leaving the paddock: to have these kinds of fractions, but be in front doing it. Apparently, we had a miscommunication somewhere. I know C P West and Slew’s Tizzy that were on the front finished behind us, so I don’t know how much slower you can get it
and still hang out there."

What a surprise. Gomez didn't want to ride the horse in the first place and then he didn't listen to the trainer. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but you guys are calling me a dunderhead and then proving my case.

[Greyfox]

Hardspun is a very good horse.
From an energy perspective, it didn't matter how he was ridden
in the 1.5 mile Belmont. Against the two winners, he was "toast."
In the shorter Preakness, a more patient ride might have made him
a closer combatant, if not the winner.

[Greyfox]

Yes. I said two winners. Both Curlin and Rags To Riches Won my heart.

[cj]

CJ,

All I am saying is that there is nothing inherent about his style or ability that made him a toss in the Preakness or Belmont. In one race the trip gave him no shot and in the other the distance gave him no shot.

You are taking credit for disliking him the Preakness when one of the horses that beat him moved forward (you didn't like Curlin either) and you are giving no credit at all to the fact that he had a much tougher trip than SS in the Preakness and would have beaten him in the Derby if SS didn't get a gift from God trip as a closer.

We've beaten this one to death. We'll have to agree to disagree on the analysis of these races and HS's chances going into the Preakness (not after the fact when we saw how good Curlin was going to get).

Since we've beaten it to death, I'll try to have the last word. :rolleyes:

I said in the Preakness that Hard Spun could not, under any trip, beat BOTH Curlin and Street Sense. I never said he couldn't beat one of them. But whatever tactic was employed, he was never going to beat them both.

As for the Derby, it isn't like Street Sense beat him a head. He dusted him. Yes, he had a nice trip, but it would have taken a bad trip for him to lose. He won easily and was playing around, as was the jockey, after smoking Hard Spun with more than a furlong to go.

Anyone that thinks Hard Spun was winning the Preakness with some sort of different ride is delusional in my opinion.

[Robert Fischer]

the scenario I wrote out before the belmont started: "I wouldn't be all that surprised if CP West breaks well, and if Gomez hesitates at all, Prado will have the inside to himself and take Hard Spun and Slew's Tizzy 4 wide into the first turn. Then those 3 will settle as slow as they like"
unfortunatly it ended like this: "Curlin may settle mid-pack and begin making headway midway on the backstretch, and should open up a wide advantage down the stretch to win by 10 or more lengths."


If I want to nitpick about Gomez's ride in the Belmont, I start with the begining of the race. He was probably prepared to be taken wide (if I expected Prado to take it wide = he had to be expecting it, knowing he wasn't going to ask Hard Spun out of the gate, knowing Prado's tendencies, and knowing the way CP West breaks). Gomez did a really nice job of directing Hard Spun behind and inside of Slew's Tizzy and CP West right after the break, but then failed to capitalize on the massive opening inside of CP West. Not only did he fail to move through that space which would have given him positional advantage on the lead , he actually swung back out way out to the outside of Slew's Tizzy! It appeared that Hard Spun was clearly 4th best at the distance. Tactics would PROBABLY;) not have factored much.

[classhandicapper]

Since we've beaten it to death, I'll try to have the last word. :rolleyes:

I said in the Preakness that Hard Spun could not, under any trip, beat BOTH Curlin and Street Sense. I never said he couldn't beat one of them. But whatever tactic was employed, he was never going to beat them both.

As for the Derby, it isn't like Street Sense beat him a head. He dusted him. Yes, he had a nice trip, but it would have taken a bad trip for him to lose. He won easily and was playing around, as was the jockey, after smoking Hard Spun with more than a furlong to go.

Anyone that thinks Hard Spun was winning the Preakness with some sort of different ride is delusional in my opinion.

Let's get off HS's trip in the Preakness and talk about the Derby.

IMO, if SS had the typical wide trip in the Derby that closers coming from his position usually get in a 20 horse field he probably would not have won. He only won by 2 lengths. He would have lost well over 2-3 lengths of ground in the typical two turn race like that. Despite appearances, HS ran a pretty good last quarter there. So he would have had a tough time making up that ground. Had his rail rally been interrupted for long enough etc.... he may not have won either. That doesn't count the fact that HS earned his position on the lead by dusting horses that have since come back to run very well.

I don't understand your thinking about Curlin and SS in the Preakness. There was nothing about their trips that would prevent a horse from beating one but not both. They ran similar style races and finished together. If you beat one, you beat both.

[cj]

All I said was it would have taken a BAD TRIP for Street Sense to lose the Derby. The horse probably wins by more if Borel isn't celebrating the last 1/16 of a mile. Given a normal closers trip, I still think he wins.

My thinking about the Preakness, which I stated before the race, was that if Hard Spun was running on a nice relaxed pace, whether leading or not, Curlin would be right with him and outkick him late. If he was going too fast early, Street Sense would certainly gobble him up again. What is so wrong about that?

[classhandicapper]

My thinking about the Preakness, which I stated before the race, was that if Hard Spun was running on a nice relaxed pace, whether leading or not, Curlin would be right with him and outkick him late. If he was going too fast early, Street Sense would certainly gobble him up again. What is so wrong about that?

Nothing. I didn't understand what you were saying.

With regard to determining if HS could have won the Preakness with a better ride. I have no accurate way of measuring how much a premature move into a fast pace takes out of horse. I've just seen it happen to other good horses and they rarely win or do well. So my thinking was to simply toss out the race and to evaluate his form off the Derby. At the highest levels, the horses tend to be more consistent. So when a horse gets one of those "tough to evaluate" trips, I think that technique works pretty good.

[JustRalph]

I think Larry Jones credibility lies in Hard Spun's next race. If he brings him back too soon, and he runs like crap...........Jones will be the laughing stock of the KY Set. They will say he blew it.

I think that KY Derby run was life changing for the horse. I am not sure he ever runs a better race? I can say this.......... I fully expected him to finish off the board in the Belmont. I think that Premature move (and I am not totally sold it was premature) in the Preakness, on top of the KyDerby is a pretty damning couple of races when it comes to the horses future. Unless he gets laid off for a good long rest. If they don't let him rest, he may be another Monarchos. Leaving it all on the track during the Derby..............and never winning again. Only Monarchos actually got the Trophy.............

[46zilzal]

HORSES, or in this case colts, run races. The rider cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, or in this case, a marathoner out of a middle distance runner.

[JustRalph]

HORSES, or in this case colts, run races. The rider cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, or in this case, a marathoner out of a middle distance runner.

yeah, I agree, but I think Edgar Prado has weaved a few nice ones..........pretty close to silk...........he gets more out of any horse than just about anybody else riding nowadays............

[46zilzal]

yeah, I agree, but I think Edgar Prado has weaved a few nice ones..........pretty close to silk...........he gets more out of any horse than just about anybody else riding nowadays............
Some riders, and this is one along with Dominguez and a rare few, move horses up a few lengths as Laffit would do all the time, but only a few...