Preciado's rash of breakdowns

[Doc]

Hey, every trainer that stays in this game long enough has horses that break down. Freak accidents happen. But Ramon Preciado, who's made a meteoric rise to the top of the trainer standings at Philly after toiling in obscurity for many years, had THREE break down this past week - TWO today.

On Sunday, Out for Victory snapped a leg at Delaware Park and had to be euthanized. Today, Just Thunder was vanned off at Monmouth, and Cat a Cold Eye was vanned off at Philly.

If you followed the action closely at Philly, you'll know that Preciado has found an amazing way to win when jumping horses up first off the claim, as well as the first time after a private purchase. Another trainer who also does well under those circumstances is Jayne Vaders, and we all know what hot water she was in recently. It's not outside the realm of common sense or logic to think that Preciado may be employing similar methods to have these animals respond so dramatically to his training regimen. After all, it can't be hay, oats and water ... can it?

Sadly, three horses paid the ultimate price for a trainer's irresponsibility and greed. Sorry to vent, but these things bother me.

Doc

[hbeck]

They bother me too. I saw and bet on the race where his horse was injured at Philly Park today. The drop down from ALW to Claiming after a 20+ speed figure drop was enough to keep my cash away from his horse and training tactics.

[ELA]

Nnot defending anyone mentioned, or otherwise, and it doesn't speak to the question, however -- regarding the first off the claim, first time out win %, as it relates to the claim I would look to see what % occurs on the drop. Not that it's absolute, but it may skew the #'s to an extent.

I have a trainer who last year at one meet was shooting almost 40% first off the claim, but about 90% of the 40% were also on drops. Not that it matters though.

Eric

[kenwoodallpromos]

He is the trainer for Victory Thoroughbreds, and this is part of what it says for 2006:
"We were able to win 18 allowance races for a 32 % win percentage all with horses acquired through the claim box."

Since he wins 32% when running his claimed horses in AWLs, he does more than just drop horses.
I found nothing on the web so far mentionig drug violations- anybody heard how many violations he has?

[ELA]

He is the trainer for Victory Thoroughbreds, and this is part of what it says for 2006:
"We were able to win 18 allowance races for a 32 % win percentage all with horses acquired through the claim box."

Since he wins 32% when running his claimed horses in AWLs, he does more than just drop horses.
I found nothing on the web so far mentionig drug violations- anybody heard how many violations he has?

Like I said, I wasn't speaking to him or his performance. If I was really looking to see the facts behind the #'s, I would look at whether or not these allowance wins were first off the claim or what. Also, I'd look at whether or not they were including "starter allowance" races in those stats. The starter races at Philly (Penn National as well) can open the door to some good wins, especially if you can get into a cheaper one. Sometimes a partnership company is looking to add some glamour and glitz to their stats.

Regardless, I wouldn't dispute whatever his % is -- first off, second, etc. as this guy is a high trainer and has been putting up very strong #'s the recently. He had always done pretty good, but in the last year (maybe two) he really stepped it up.

I don't know the guy personally but I do watch his horses to see where, when, how, why, etc. and so on.

Eric

[takeout]

I found nothing on the web so far mentionig drug violations
Me either.

They sure seem to be swept waaay under the rug, at least on the East Coast anyway. This is basic information that every player should be given access to yet seems to be way too hard to find, if it can be found at all.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wait...maybe I read too quickly through this thread, but how about the off chance the guy doesn't HAVE ANY violations? Maybe that's why you can't find any....

[takeout]

There should be somewhere to go to find out either way but if there is I’m not aware of it.

[john del riccio]

Wait...maybe I read too quickly through this thread, but how about the off chance the guy doesn't HAVE ANY violations? Maybe that's why you can't find any....

Mike,

Do a search on posts from me about this guy, I have made several. So censor me if you must; I understand. However, I have seen UNBELEIVABLE move ups when this guy takes over a horse, and UNBELEIVABLE moves down when this guy loses a horse.

The word (rumor, but from a source that I persoanlly trust), is that ONE WAY to achieve this was using some sort of elecro-magnetic therapy OFF track (If you are found with this machine on the grounds, you are in a lot of trouble). This therapy (not sure of the details), is not allowable for a few weeks prior to race-day.

With all of this said. YOUNG horses 4yos & younger, often improve dramaticlly overnight. At 5, most horses have established what they are but there are exceptions, especially with grass horses. This guy ABSOLUTELY is breaking all of the above "rules".

These breakdowns are no surprise to me and hopeflly someone in a position to
investigate this further will do so.

John

[ELA]

In all due respect John, at this point, it's nothing more than your professional opinion, speculation, allegation, or whatever someone might want to call it.

Regardless, I still think, in order to have integrity in the process -- and because it's the legal, just, and right thing -- a person must be innocent until proven guilty. As much as it may be labeled "rumor" or the like, why even go that far? You are a professional involved in this industry and make your livelihood from this industry. Spreading a rumor on a BB, which I haven't read here before, has zero benefit IMO, especially when we agree it's rumor and the subject is innocent as of now. If we were talking amongst friends in the Trustees room or in the backtretch kitchen for that matter, that might be a different story.

Regardless, in a case like this, rumors aren't going to help in any aspect of the business.

Eric

[ELA]

There should be somewhere to go to find out either way but if there is I’m not aware of it.

Some states used to have this, eventually, as public information on the racing commission, state, et al, website. It may not be current or what have you. Also, I think it would depend on if every state deemed this to be "public information" -- and if they did, there should be a clear statement as to where it's published.

Most often, when I've seen little or nothing else, the race office has these postings/announcements.

Eric

[john del riccio]

In all due respect John, at this point, it's nothing more than your professional opinion, speculation, allegation, or whatever someone might want to call it.

Regardless, I still think, in order to have integrity in the process -- and because it's the legal, just, and right thing -- a person must be innocent until proven guilty. As much as it may be labeled "rumor" or the like, why even go that far? You are a professional involved in this industry and make your livelihood from this industry. Spreading a rumor on a BB, which I haven't read here before, has zero benefit IMO, especially when we agree it's rumor and the subject is innocent as of now. If we were talking amongst friends in the Trustees room or in the backtretch kitchen for that matter, that might be a different story.

Regardless, in a case like this, rumors aren't going to help in any aspect of the business.

Eric

Eric,

You have a point, but passion is something that is sometimes hard to temper.

I remeber when I made my first claim (actually it was a private purchase). An old war horse named ZIAD'S GAME, you may remeber him... I bought him from the late PG Johnson for 15k. In his first start for me we raced against
a decent field for 25 and Juan Surey had a horse in that race. Juan knew who I was & I knew who he was. He just smiled at me and said "you have no shot". I replied with "we'll see" and just winked. His horse won by a pole.
He saw me on the way to the winners circle and said "Nobody can beat me when I want to win". His horses used to show crazy move up/downs just like this guy and we all know what the score was.

As a bettor, your perspective needs to be "if you can't beat them join them" or you will need to pass alot of races. When it comes to owning horses and
paying for their up-keep, Purse money is what keeps you in business and when that purse money is going elsewhere, to guys that ain't exactly above board, it forces you to either compromise your own moral and ethical standards, or get out of the game. I myself had taken a break from it for that reason and am just now starting to get my feet wet again and I wouldn't shed a tear if each and every cheater was booted out for making an incredibly difficult game an almost sure-lose situation.

John

[kenwoodallpromos]

IMO only the stupid trainers use only hay, oats, and water- the smart ones use electro-magnetic therapy, accupuncture, barometric chambers, massage, headphones with music, swimming pools, winter off, myectomys, etc. Whether on or off the track, they are all legal for racehorses and the trainers should be applauded for looking foe alternatives to the hundrteds of legal pain killers allowed.
If this trainer is caught illegally doping horses then he's caught. But John calims he is using a device that is legal off the track and that chiropractors regularly use on humans. So stop crying and figure out when to bet him.
I've heard the same song and dance about Michael Gill and he was basically burned at the stake for spending money to fix horses' palates that other owners and their trainers were too cheap to spend the money on and let their horse have physical problems instead.
If Ramon is using electro-magnetic therapy or anything else to help heal a horse's back or legs I congratulate him.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Massage Gets Derby Contender Hard Spun Ready to Run
by: Deirdre Biles
May 03 2007 Article # 9517

Article Tools



Hard Spun's final preparations for the Kentucky Derby have included a sizzling five-furlong work and the usual early morning gallops. You've probably read about all those moves online and in the newspapers. But there's one step in the process you might not know about. Thursday, the colt got a massage at Barn 41 following morning training hours at Churchill Downs"

_____
Better DQ Hard Spun from and TC placings- no fair using alternative therapy instead of snake venom for pain relief!LOL!!

[TonyK@HSH]

"Massage Gets Derby Contender Hard Spun Ready to Run
by: Deirdre Biles
May 03 2007 Article # 9517

Article Tools



Hard Spun's final preparations for the Kentucky Derby have included a sizzling five-furlong work and the usual early morning gallops. You've probably read about all those moves online and in the newspapers. But there's one step in the process you might not know about. Thursday, the colt got a massage at Barn 41 following morning training hours at Churchill Downs"



_____
Better DQ Hard Spun from and TC placings- no fair using alternative therapy instead of snake venom for pain relief!LOL!!


Ken,

While I do believe a trainer should be appluaded for 'out of the box' therapies I believe John was referring to a treatment being used in an illegal way. I think John is writing about 'shock wave therapy'. It's origin can be traced to methods developed to break apart kidney stones in humans.
Shock wave therapy IS an effective method to promote healing in equines. But when used incorrectly it is not only illegal, but dangerous to horse and rider. Shock wave therapy has the affect of numbing an injured area. If perfromed too closely to race time the risk of breakdown increases as the horse cannot feel pain from injured areas.
Shock wave therapy performed within 10 days of racing is illegal in most racing jurisdictions that I am aware of. I'd suggest checking your local jurisdiction if you have any questions. By racing law, shock wave therapy is only to be applied by licensed vets, yet many farms and other facilities offer the service. Many trainers skirt racing regulations by transporting horses off the grounds close to race day and having the therapy performed. This provides an obvious advantage (and illegal) on race day.
I'm fearful of the day when a jock gets seriously hurt riding an affected horse of falling over one when the breakdown occurs.
This practice is BAD for the racing business. Imagine claiming a horse coming off this procedure. The horse walks fine, looks fine but has a potentially serious injury that is being masked. Or betting against a horse coming off first time shock wave- you get the picture.
I should note that I have no knowledge of Ramon using shock wave therapy. I was just trying to help John describe an illegal part of the game.

TonyK

[DanG]

I bite my tongue often in public forums.

“Unproven” allegations that I will take to my grave as truth, go unsaid. I understand 'liable and 'innocent until proven guilty, but after 45 years on the planet my experience tells me when the circumstantial evidence mounts in an arena that I follow very closely, there is an issue.

Drugging defenseless animals / placing the riders life at risk / committing fraud against the betting public…Not only is it & has it happened…It will continue long after the last brave person speaks out against it.

Go after it Doc, John with all you have while it’s your turn. :ThmbUp:

[bigmack]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/tr.jpg

[john del riccio]

Ken,

While I do believe a trainer should be appluaded for 'out of the box' therapies I believe John was referring to a treatment being used in an illegal way. I think John is writing about 'shock wave therapy'. It's origin can be traced to methods developed to break apart kidney stones in humans.
Shock wave therapy IS an effective method to promote healing in equines. But when used incorrectly it is not only illegal, but dangerous to horse and rider. Shock wave therapy has the affect of numbing an injured area. If perfromed too closely to race time the risk of breakdown increases as the horse cannot feel pain from injured areas.
Shock wave therapy performed within 10 days of racing is illegal in most racing jurisdictions that I am aware of. I'd suggest checking your local jurisdiction if you have any questions. By racing law, shock wave therapy is only to be applied by licensed vets, yet many farms and other facilities offer the service. Many trainers skirt racing regulations by transporting horses off the grounds close to race day and having the therapy performed. This provides an obvious advantage (and illegal) on race day.
I'm fearful of the day when a jock gets seriously hurt riding an affected horse of falling over one when the breakdown occurs.
This practice is BAD for the racing business. Imagine claiming a horse coming off this procedure. The horse walks fine, looks fine but has a potentially serious injury that is being masked. Or betting against a horse coming off first time shock wave- you get the picture.
I should note that I have no knowledge of Ramon using shock wave therapy. I was just trying to help John describe an illegal part of the game.

TonyK

Tony,

Thank You for helping my memory lapse...While I was at MTH yesterday, I spoke with a trainer friend of mine and he reminded me that what I was speaking about was shock-wave therapy as you indicted. He went onto say that he himself had bonespurs in his heel and tongue/cheek asked the vet
to "treat him". After a few weeks, the pain was gone ! Suffice to say,
if horses have an injury that they can't feel, there are alot of humans & horses at risk going 35 mph around sharp turns.

While I was at MTH, I visited the paddock and same a Preciado horse at 9-2. He looked absolutely pathetic. He was 7-2 at the time and I watched as he barely finished the race.

Its only a matter of time til this guy falls off the face of the earth and for my money, not a moment to soon.

John

[john del riccio]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/tr.jpg


Wow, all these breakdowns since this incident occured, makes you wonder....

John

[kenwoodallpromos]

After having read the consensus online from AAEP, CHRB, TOBA, and others, I agree that using this therapy too close to racing is a bad idea. If he is doing it illegally, he should be punished; if doing it legally but too close to racing they should look into making it illegal and he should be held accountable for beast and jockey that is injured.
For that matter, trainers should be held accountable for injuires if anything illegal and harmful is proven.
As far as the citation for DUI, Thursday 5:33PM makes me wonder where he was getting influenced at!

[kenwoodallpromos]

These winnwrs do seem to win a little too often repeatedly to be believable!:

"http://www.victorytbreds.com/id12.html"

Too many multiple winners even repeatedly closer than 1 month apart. I do not think I have heard of this much racing luck before. Just based on this list he is racing his stock too often to allow his stock time t5o rcover from 1 race to the next- dangerous in risking breakdowns or injuries even without "cheating"!

[Doc]

I was aware of that DUI that Preciado got and Big Mack so graciously posted, but I didn't mention it because I wasn't sure what relevance it had to his profession as that of a thoroughbred racehorse trainer. I do know that he had a recent altercation with a security guard at Philly Park for which he is also in trouble for, and I understand he continues to drive despite the suspension of his driver's license. I saw him at Delaware the day Out For Victory snapped a leg - to my horror the horse continued to run on for nearly a quarter-mile before being caught by the outriders and then euthanized behind the screen in front of the grandstand. The owners of the horse did not travel with Preciado and so he must have either driven himself or had someone drive him.

Just Thunder, the horse vanned off at Monmouth, was euthanized too, I found out.

Any way you look at it, he's not a good advertisement for the game.

[46zilzal]

Shock wave therapy has been used in relcalcitrant cases of plantar faciitis (hockey players swear by it) by stimulating deep inflammation (and subsequent healing). It is qualitively like the old "firing" but with a more subtle bodily insult.

Connective tissue repair takes 6 weeks to complete its cycle. Any significant weight bearing before then risks weight borne on incompleted collagen.