USA....RIP

[Tom]

The death of America is immienent.
It's been a great run, but Uncle Sam has been given last rites.

Of all people, one of the worst POS Americans in history - Ted "You missed one" Kennedy just announced that three is agreement to grant instant amnesty to ALL illegal aliens in this country. The Z visa makes them insatly eligible for welfare, food stamps, SS benefits, and allows them to bring thier immediate families here. So count on about 100 million new hands out reaching for your wallets in the near future. The reward to not following the rules, for breaking the law, is to make honest citizen like you and me pay for all the crud mexico can flush out. Criminals, terrorists, disease ridden slobs, all are welcome. Give me your insane, your dirty, your lazy, your criminals......as long as they work cheap, join unions, and votes dem, we will take any thing that crawls, drools and shits.
It still must be voted on, but all the dengenerates in DC, and I mean both houses of louses and the White Ho House are behind this.

I agree now with the 4 horseman - bring home the toops now, end the stupid war, becasue this country is no longer worth fighting or dying for.

The war was a total waste of time and money and lives. If anyone wants to fight a war on terror, let the new citizens do it. I'll be damned if I ever support any real American fighting and dying for the criminals that will soon call themselves citizens.

Today, I am ashamed to be an American.

[andicap]

Why do I get the feeling that Tom is the next Unabomber?

[Greyfox]

The death of America is immienent.
It's been a great run, but Uncle Sam has been given last rites.
Today, I am ashamed to be an American.

Whoa. From different sides of the spectrum you and Al Gore are talking the same turkey.
Gore , in his new book, "Assault on Reason" has said:


"What has happened to our country?" People are trying to figure out what has gone wrong in our democracy, and how we can fix it.....

"As a result, our democracy is in danger of being hollowed out. In order to reclaim our birthright, we Americans must resolve to repair the systemic decay of the public forum.".....

"Many young Americans now seem to feel that the jury is out on whether American democracy actually works or not.".....
"So the remedy for what ails our democracy is not simply better education (as important as that is) or civic education (as important as that can be), but the re-establishment of a genuine democratic discourse in which individuals can participate in a meaningful way—a conversation of democracy in which meritorious ideas and opinions from individuals do, in fact, evoke a meaningful response...."

"Fortunately, the Internet has the potential to revitalize the role played by the people in our constitutional framework....


Don't give up on America yet Tom. Let your politicians know what YOU
think. Certainly more "dialogue" is needed.

[delayjf]

OR,

Maybe this will be a wake up call and America will finally hold these morons accountable. This could very easily turn into the death of the Democratic party IF America acts now.

[Greyfox]

I had meant to add the reference to my post above.
An excerpt of Gore's book Assault on Reason is at:
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1622015,00.html

[GaryG]

Just imagine the effect in the hospitals in the southwest. Most of the illegals already use the ER for routine doctor visits because of course they have no insurance. Might as well call everything from Texas on to the west "New Mexico". Ohhhhh Canada....leave the light on for us.

[JustRalph]

It will never pass. If it does........Mexicans will become the most discriminated against population on the planet.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Historically, Pancho Villa was the actual wake up call- but we went back to sleep. Now maybe the rsdical Muslims are.

[bigmack]

Why do I get the feeling that Tom is the next Unabomber?
Why do I get the feeling that he just cares more about what goes on in this country than ye?

[Greyfox]

It will never pass. If it does........Mexicans will become the most discriminated against population on the planet.


Posted on bloomberg 1 hour ago:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aj4.sLwmlIro&refer=home

"Senate negotiators reached bipartisan agreement on immigration legislation aimed at providing a path to citizenship for 12 million undocumented aliens while improving U.S. border security...."
"President George W. Bush was quick to urge Congress to support the legislation, saying in a statement it ``delivers an immigration system that is secure, productive, orderly and fair.''

This improves border security? :faint:

[Indulto]

Why do I get the feeling that he just cares more about what goes on in this country than ye?BgM,
Passion and rage aren't the same thing. I'm against the bill too, but not for the venomous reasons spewed by the original poster that make his good ideas harder to appreciate.

[bigmack]

BgM,
Passion and rage aren't the same thing. I'm against the bill too, but not for the venomous reasons spewed by the original poster that make his good ideas harder to appreciate.
Tom throws that stuff out cause he gets bent on the direction this country is going. Venomous actions and words take place everyday from those seeking a green light to their illegal actions as if it's some sort of entitlement.

I have a place near UCSD where a large portion of the student body is from other countries. I talk with many of the parents and students alike and a brunt of them feel that most Americans have no idea what they have in this country and that most of us take for granted the incredible opportunities that are offered here. From my minds eye they appreciate this country more than your typical swamp Yankee.

Tom cares about what takes place legislatively to undermine the fabric of this country. Personally, I'd like to see fewer people on IPods and more reading a newspaper. They might actually find themselves giving a hoot before their hoot is meaningless.

By the by, as one who is acutely aware of immigration, I can assure you that there is no way in God's green earth that blanket amnesty will pass.

[ljb]

Tom does seem to get upset when bushco goes against his wishes, don't you think ?

[bigmack]

Tom does seem to get upset when bushco goes against his wishes, don't you think ?
There's a place for your posts but they end up being nonsensical as they show up rather smudged

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/copyshit.gif

[skate]

Why do I get the feeling that Tom is the next Unabomber?

nope, i think you'll have to consider 'the Skate'.

tom, gives those not already in line, very very good reasons 'not to vote'.

i could't match Toms wit, but on this subject, im about 15 years ahead. :cool:

the negativity belongs right about there...:ThmbUp:

[skate]

Tom does seem to get upset when bushco goes against his wishes, don't you think ?

you are so far off base, you're not in the same game

[skate]

Whoa.."

"Fortunately, the Internet has the potential to revitalize the role played by the people in our constitutional framework....


Don't give up on America yet Tom. Let your politicians know what YOU
think. Certainly more "dialogue" is needed.


the net itself has nothing, cept more of the same, unfortunately. its a go-round and round...


and, are you thinking it's only the young, that thinks "problem ahead"? i'd have to say the 'old' are more in objection then the young.


and and and , "let your politicians know" and "more dialogue", to be polite, let me say Been there, years ago, and im not looking back, so good luck and "i mean that babe":bang: (sammy davis)

[skate]

OR,

Maybe this will be a wake up call and America will finally hold these morons accountable. This could very easily turn into the death of the Democratic party IF America acts now.

we've been in a wake-up call for about 30 some years, heard your words a long long time ago, but hey, i wish you the best:)

[skate]

It will never pass. If it does........Mexicans will become the most discriminated against population on the planet.


yelp, that's what happens when you get to be 'the majority"

[skate]

Why do I get the feeling that he just cares more about what goes on in this country than ye?

yes, but ,much too serious for you mack.;)

[Tom]

BgM,
Passion and rage aren't the same thing. I'm against the bill too, but not for the venomous reasons spewed by the original poster that make his good ideas harder to appreciate.

Point out to me - specifically - what you think in my post is not the truth.

[Tom]

Tom does seem to get upset when bushco goes against his wishes, don't you think ?

I am talking about the REAL axis of evil - Kennedy, Pelosi, and Bush. Even you libs have to admit Dirty Harry Reid is noting but a sham, - a little dweeb with no power, who got wehre he is today by being a yes-boy, a wimp, and having seniority.

But in term of historical perspective, these three may well prove to be far more deadly than Hitler, Musselini, and Tojo. Those three failed to destroy us - this trifecta may actually succeed.

Now the $64,000 question - do we bother to stop them, or do we - some of us - re-united uinder Gary's flag and leave the union?

I say it is time to disolve the united states and shed ourselves of the blue states and form our own, America - 50 states is way too many, and most are worthless drains anyways.

Nice to see you keep your sense of humor while the party YOU elected high fives each other over a bill none of them has read, none will read, and yet will vote for it. If this is the kind of leadership you are happy with, you deserve it.

It give me comfort that you guys, for all your chest pounding, link posting, venom spewing Bush is Bad guys have now fallen lock step in line with Bush, and are now little bushco lemmings, mindlessly helping him disolve the uniion. :lol: You now follow the rutabega! :lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

Adding a new idea to the thread, I submit the Reverends Jackson and Sharpton should be upset with this bill. The democrats are seeking a larger minority majority to cultivate. If the dems can control the amnestied illegal alien vote the reverends and their voting block would be irrelevant.

I can understand why the republicans are trying to compromise with the dem majority so to avoid losing the new minority majority vote totally.

Hey revs, I can see those nice entitlement programs being diverted.

[Tom]

Obviously, we will need a mexican affirmative action law.

[46zilzal]

You now follow the rutabega!
rutabaga

[bigmack]

rutabaga
How's the Hong Kongification going in Vancouver?

[Ponyplayr]

yelp, that's what happens when you get to be 'the majority" :lol: :lol:

[Ponyplayr]

You don't see Mexicans conspiring to attack American military bases.
I would welcome them to our country..culture and political system. At least they love and appreciate our country, and hundreds of Mexicans if not thousands have given their lives to defend our liberty.
12 million Mexicans..Fine...Not one Muslim should be allowed in..Ever!!!

[46zilzal]

60 Minutes reviewed a program on how many who join the Army get citizenship as their reward.......that is if they live to receive it....They showed how a few families of these fellow's were under threat of deportation since the breadwinner had no fulfilled his obligation....just happened to die trying.

[GaryG]

You don't see Mexicans conspiring to attack American military bases.
I would welcome them to our country..culture and political system. At least they love and appreciate our country, and hundreds of Mexicans if not thousands have given their lives to defend our liberty.
12 million Mexicans..Fine...Not one Muslim should be allowed in..Ever!!!In most ways the majority of them would be an asset, but the lack of interest in English is a problem. It has already gotten to where teachers in many areas are being forced to learn Spanish. It is the language of commerce already in the border towns. I think any citizenship, or amnesty, should require a proficiency test in English. Also, drivers license tests must be in English.

[Tom]

That's a good idea - you serve in Iraq for 5 years, you can be a citizen.
Your family gets in as soon as you ship out.
You die, they stay, you go AWOL, we deport them.
We could have 20 million troops there by summer.

[Indulto]

That's a good idea - you serve in Iraq for 5 years, you can be a citizen.
Your family gets in as soon as you ship out.
You die, they stay, you go AWOL, we deport them.
We could have 20 million troops there by summer.The training of those 20 million troops would have to be conducted in Spanish. They might even prefer to learn Arabic than English once they got there.

Here's a plan you might like, Tom. Instead of deporting illegal aliens back to their country of origin, transport them to Iraq to compete for jobs there. If they learn English, they work for us, and if they then join the Military, they become U.S. citizens. If they learn Arabic, they work for Iraqis. If they then convert to Islam, they become Iraqi citizens. The Coyotes would become rich running a Middle East shuttle airline and constructing mosques in Mexico.;)

An alternative would be to bring our troops home as you suggested, and then invade Mexico to make it our 51st state. We could then legally give them the benefits they are denied as aliens. :D But at least all the business would come under regulation and they would have to compete fairly. Plus the wealthy class would be taxed and their oil would be ours.:lol:

I would never have proposed this prior to the Bush Administration, but if it's OK to have invaded Iraq, then it's got to be OK to invade Mexico, even if they already have a "democracy." It's clear we'll have to fight them there so we don't have to find them here. :bang:

[Secretariat]

The death of America is immienent.
It's been a great run, but Uncle Sam has been given last rites.

Of all people, one of the worst POS Americans in history - Ted "You missed one" Kennedy just announced that three is agreement to grant instant amnesty to ALL illegal aliens in this country.

....

I agree now with the 4 horseman - bring home the toops now, end the stupid war, becasue this country is no longer worth fighting or dying for.

The war was a total waste of time and money and lives. If anyone wants to fight a war on terror, let the new citizens do it. I'll be damned if I ever support any real American fighting and dying for the criminals that will soon call themselves citizens.

Today, I am ashamed to be an American.

Tom,

I'm glad you finally agree with us.

As to singling out Ted Keneedy, you do know both McCain and many Repubs, as well as Bush is in support of this amnesty program. JR, it will most likely pass and nobody is going to like it....including me.

[JustRalph]

JR, it will most likely pass and nobody is going to like it....including me.

Let's hope the hell raising starts soon and this thing gets stopped!

[Tom]

I refuse to support sending our troops to die for this country when no one here will do anything for national security. Bush is a traitor and an enemy of freedom. I see him as a far greater threat than Osama.
Bush/Kennedy/Pelsio - the new axis of evil.
If Al Qeda wants to come here, then let them.
It is cheaper to fight them here, we are the home team.

[wonatthewire1]

In most ways the majority of them would be an asset, but the lack of interest in English is a problem. It has already gotten to where teachers in many areas are being forced to learn Spanish. It is the language of commerce already in the border towns. I think any citizenship, or amnesty, should require a proficiency test in English. Also, drivers license tests must be in English.

Ever go into a food place lately? Forgettaboutit.

It is almost as if I should be the one putting the request into the cash register..."Americano cheese"?

:faint:

[Dave Schwartz]

Also, drivers license tests must be in English.

What would that do? It isn't like you absolutely have to have a license (or insurance) to drive.



I am going to take the advice of another almost-as-famous "Tom." His little speech which ended with, "... and the wisdom to know the difference." seems applicable here.

Why should I allow myself to become so distressed over something that I cannot possibly change?

Therefore, I am (once again) changing my party affiliation to the party of "Political Apathy," or "PA" for short. I choose to simply not care.

Let them do as they will: I am simply not going to be involved in the decision-making process in Washington, D.C. any more. (Apparently, they don't have much interest in my advice, opinion or vote anyway.)




Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Greyfox]

them [/i]do as they will: I am simply not going to be involved in the decision-making process in Washington, D.C. any more. (Apparently, they don't have much interest in my advice, opinion or vote anyway.)


Some of you are coming across as very depressed. I too will remind you of a couple of quotes.

1. Edmund Burke
"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."

2. Martin Niemoller
When the Nazis came for the communists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist),
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democrat),
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union),
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Yes. Living in modern times can be discouraging. But part of being fully human is speaking up if you disagree. That doesn't mean that your voice will be heard or heeded. But you'll have a more peaceful conscience.
Defeatism, doing nothing, apathy, and ignoring what is going on are not options for me.

[Tom]

Dave, unfortunately, that little POS Bush is doing it with my money, and his is killing our sons and daughters for his fraud. It took a while, but I finally get it - HE is the evil in this world. A lying, murdering little POS - he is the worst of them all. He is a insult to every one who ever sacrificed for this country. What tens of thousands have given thier lives for over the last couple hundred years, this terrorist is destroying - our sovereignty.

[xtb]

Dave, unfortunately, that little POS Bush is doing it with my money, and his is killing our sons and daughters for his fraud. It took a while, but I finally get it - HE is the evil in this world. A lying, murdering little POS - he is the worst of them all. He is a insult to every one who ever sacrificed for this country. What tens of thousands have given thier lives for over the last couple hundred years, this terrorist is destroying - our sovereignty.

I could not agree more.

[Greyfox]

In the 1950's, in the midst of McCarthyism, a longshoreman named Eric Hoffer
came to prominence with his book called "The True Believer."

Fanatic believers can come in all stripes and colors. They can be Democrats, Republicans, Islamists, Christians, Christian Scientists, Fascists, Communists, and the list goes on. But that does not mean that all of the above fit into that category. Usually they are the extremists in those groups.

Simply stated, they are right, you are wrong and it does not matter what you think. What is more they truly believe that they are absolutely right.
That is why each and every issue has to be thought out independently of the proponent of it.

Hoffer raised doubts about mass movements of any kind, and of the individuals who were leading those movements , if they showed signs of
"The True Believer Mentality."

I don't know that his little book is still in print. I got mine many years back in a used book store. It reminded me to think about each and every issue being waved before me by our leaders, and the leaders of other countrys.
If you see a copy of it buy it.

Fortunately there is an Eric Hoffer resource site on the internet.
It's site is (and no I am not a shill for it)
http://www.erichoffer.net/

Below I've pasted a brief excerpt from that site's introductory page.

Eric Hoffer was a self-educated longshoreman who came to fame in the 1950's with the publication of his first book, The True Believer. A caustic analysis of the nature of mass movements and those who are driven to join them, The True Believer did what few other books of the mid-twentieth century could: it helped expose the hidden causes of the tumultuous events that nearly destroyed our world at that time. Hoffer said of the 1930's, "It colors my thinking and shapes my attitude toward events. I can never forget that one of the most gifted, best educated nations in the world, of its own free will, surrendered its fate into the hands of a maniac."

The True Believer, though, is not solely concerned with the rise of Nazi Germany, but with the origination of all mass movements, destructive or creative. And more importantly, it is concerned with the main ingredient of such movements, the frustrated individual. The book probes into the psychology of the frustrated and dissatisfied, those who would eagerly sacrifice themselves for any cause that might give their meaningless lives some sense of significance. The alienated seek to lose themselves in these movements by adopting those fanatical attitudes that are, according to Hoffer, fundamentally "a flight from the self."

[shanta]

In most ways the majority of them would be an asset, but the lack of interest in English is a problem. It has already gotten to where teachers in many areas are being forced to learn Spanish. It is the language of commerce already in the border towns. I think any citizenship, or amnesty, should require a proficiency test in English. Also, drivers license tests must be in English.

:jump: :jump:

Right on the money Gary!
Richie

[Tom]

This country was built by people coming here looking to improve thier lives and contribute to building a new nation. To this day, the contibutions of legal immigrants is boundless. The message being sent to them is, you followed the rules, you did things the legal way, now - BACK OF THE LINE!

[Greyfox]

This country was built by people coming here looking to improve thier lives and contribute to building a new nation. To this day, the contibutions of legal immigrants is boundless. The message being sent to them is, you followed the rules, you did things the legal way, now - BACK OF THE LINE!

I agree with you here Tom.
It appears that nobody's been minding "the rules" for a number of years.
Now that there are 12 million + aliens in the country, they feel that they have an impossible task of sending them home. Watching Lou Dobbs the other day he said that the number has doubled since 1995.
The sad thing is that for many administrations keeping illegal Mexicans out was a problem that they were able to deal with.
Then some one somewhere saw an advantage to turning a blind eye.
Nice cheap labour that Americans don't want to do. Thus the problem was just plain ignored. Ignored to the point where they can't solve it.
But the Kennedy-McCain solution may not be a "Slam Dunk."
It turns out that not many on either side of the Senate or Congress have seen any of the specifics, or the structures around them.
Large numbers of Republicans and Democrats find the first stated solution highly distasteful. Also, there's some strange clause in there where the
"head of a household" must go home and then re-apply.
What does his family do while he's gone home? Go on welfare?
Then there's another clause in there about paying a $5,000 fine.
Wonder how many will pay that.
I can't blame individual Mexicans for wanting to leave squalor behind and come and make a better way of life. I blame the administrators, the politicians, the border patrol and so on who were supposed to stop this from happening in the first place. Every night on CNN I see film clips of illegal aliens coming into the country. If CNN can pick these people off, why can't the border patrol? Unless they've been told to turn a blind eye.
In the meanwhile, those who've applied to come here legally suffer and wait.

[Tom]

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

[Tom]

I

....Then there's another clause in there about paying a $5,000 fine.
Wonder how many will pay that.


Well, the ones that play for they Yankees, but after that.....:lol:

[ljb]

Folks,
When you support/elect these people to run the government you have to accept the whole package. This bill came out of a committee consisting of 7 Republicans and 3 Democrats. It has the support of McCain, one of the leading Republican candidates for president. So far the only other candidate I have heard about is Mitt Romney, who has come out against it. My original comment about Tom was in reference to him calling the Senator from Mass. a pos while failing to mention the President as being supportive of this bill. Since then Tom has included members of the Republican party in his diatribe.
Mack responded to my comment with a childish cartoon and Snake said I was off base. I think not.
My take on this is, the Republicans want it for the cheap labor and the Democrats want it for the votes.
In watching C-span this morning I see many people from all political views are against it. I am just wondering, these people are here and have been for many years. What are we supposed to do about them ? Our elected officials seem to think they have come up with the beginnings of a solution, but after they read the polls they may change their thoughts. I kind of like the fact that they have pissed off almost everybody.
We need campaign finance reform. Get the lobbyists out of D.C.

[Tom]

Bottom line - they all SUCK bi-partisanly.

[Greyfox]

Folks,
My take on this is, the Republicans want it for the cheap labor and the Democrats want it for the votes.


Good points. But would someone registered with this "Z Visa Status" be entitled to vote?

[andicap]

Why do I get the feeling that he just cares more about what goes on in this country than ye?

Why do I get the feeling that you have absolutely NO sense of humor.

[bigmack]

Why do I get the feeling that you have absolutely NO sense of humor.
I can assure you that my sense of humor is more than intact. Cue me when you throw out something mildly funny. Actually, when you insisted that Rosa take down his avatar using R2 - Now THAT was hilarious. See, you're a funny guy afterall.

[Tom]

Now, now, boys.
No need to fight over little ole me.
There's plenty to go around! :kiss::kiss::kiss:











:lol:

[Greyfox]

The proposed bill is a very hot potato.
Even Nancy Pelosi is supporting your view Tom.
And guess who else opposes the bill?
Mexicans who stayed home hoping to enter legally.
Consider:

"At the U.S. Consulate (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22U.S.+Consulate%22&sid=breitbart.com) in Monterrey, which hands out more temporary visas than any other consulate or embassy in the world, Edmundo Bermudez, a 36-year-old from the northern city of Durango, said the plan rewards those who have already entered the United States illegally, while shutting out those who stayed home hoping to gain legal passage. "

Whatever your position on the matter the good old "Drudge sludge" is offering several divergent articles on it:
http://www.drudgereport.com/

[Tom]

The provisions of this bill do nothing but label it's authors as complete idiots!
The Z Visa stands for ZERO chance it will ever work.

Bush - McCain - Spectre - the new 3 Stooges. The Three Amigos - the triplettes of decption. If you or I talked this "Axis of Asses" we would be put away in a locked room.

I expect crap like this from Kennedy - it has been his trademark for almost 50 years of public dis-service, but I would have though a conservative had some brain activity.....NOT.

And Binpelosi - she is piised off becasue she was by-passed in all this. She probably thinks "amnesty" is a haunted house in New England. The Amnestyville Horror. :lol: Or it is what Bush has becasue he can't remeber things......amnesty. :kiss::kiss::kiss:

[skate]

oh well, at least this should bring out the voters:sleeping:



oh oh oh, wait, we already did that, now what:mad:



back on the merry-go-round:D

[Secretariat]

THe problem with this immigration issue is it is really NOT on the front burner. Iraq is, and Iraq will continue to be. It functions to keep everything else OFF the public's mind. Imagine this bill IF Iraq was not at the forefront. The American public would be inundated with it. Immigration would actually be a huge issue. Now, we are heading to an acqueisced amnesty. Silent, and slow. This is going to be passed, and GW will smile as he signs it.

[lsbets]

Depends where you are whether or not imigration is at the forefront. Farmer's Branch, TX just passed an ordinance that it is illegal to rent apartments to illegal aliens. Now the city is bracing for a slew of lawsuits, where the legal fees are going to place a huge burden on the tax paying citizens of the city.

[Dave Schwartz]

Okay, I'm back.

[Greyfox]

Okay, I'm back.

Whether I agree with you or not on major political issues, I think that your contributions are too valuable to withold. Thank you.

[bigmack]

Okay, I'm back.
:lol::lol: Well that was abbreviated.

If apathy is a sort of living oblivion it's now recorded that you had an intential lengthy stay and an early check out.

[Dave Schwartz]

Well, in all honesty, it was because I found it today that it was not a done deal. Seems there are still a few brains left in Washington. Too bad we can't get them into one head and call it President.

[so.cal.fan]

lsbets:
I hope the folks in Farmer's Branch hang tough. Let them sue.
Let the town declare bankruptcy, "we're broke" can't pay our legal bills.......can't get blood out of a turnip.
These big corps go bankrupt, and recover.
It is disgusting how people are forced to comply with these hideous issues, be it overdevelopment or in the case of Farmer's Branch, a desire to keep illegals from taking over their town. The big special interests threaten lawsuits and the poor people cave in. It has to stop. Hang tough Farmer's Branch!
Maybe someone like Lou Dobbs can promote a legal defense fund, nationwide for towns like Farmer's Branch.

[Tom]

Do our border patrol agents, who Bush and Co, have waged war on for several years, get amnesty from prison, too? Or just drug dealers.

And who delivers the Z Visa to the ones in jail.....the Warden or Govenor?
And when the millions of illegals dutifully follow the law and go back home to do paperwork before coming back, do all thier families start getting the welfare checks right away, or is the 7 day waiting period waived?

And will the states pick up the $5,000 fines or are they waived, too.


....land of the free, home of the FOOLS. :mad:

[Secretariat]

Depends where you are whether or not imigration is at the forefront. Farmer's Branch, TX just passed an ordinance that it is illegal to rent apartments to illegal aliens. Now the city is bracing for a slew of lawsuits, where the legal fees are going to place a huge burden on the tax paying citizens of the city.

Farmers Branch, TX approach to immigration is not at the forefront of our news. Iraq is. This is why this amnesty will be signed by GW and the public will just bend over and accept it.

[lsbets]

Farmers Branch, TX approach to immigration is not at the forefront of our news. Iraq is. This is why this amnesty will be signed by GW and the public will just bend over and accept it.

Did you notice where I started my statement with depends where you are? That means, it depends where you are. In the DFW area, the Farmers Branch issue has been one of the lead items on the news for most of the year, and a good chunck of last year. It would help before you respond, if you were able to comprehend the first four words of the post you are responding to.

[Buckeye]

Welfare checks ain't very big in the first place, and in second place we have . . . Street Smart!

This Country is not really over as Tom put it so very well.

In the next election, whoever the DEMOCRATS nominate will win.

As for the "mexican problem" I don't think there's any problem at all. They come here, they work cheap and they don't collect much.

What's the problem?

It was the Spanish who were here first in the New World anyway :), look it up. (they killed and plundered just about anything they found!)

Why should we force anyone to do anything in a "free society" ?

Let em eat cake as the French say.

Tolerance and opportunity need to survive if not here then where?

[GaryG]

Let em eat cake as the French say.Or tacos in this case. No mexican problem? You must have never been to TX or CA.

[Buckeye]

No I haven't Gary.

Remember this though, our Country is a marketplace of ideas from all sources and that's why She is Great.

[Tom]

It's not a Mexican problem....it is a national security/legal problem.
Apparently Buckeye is in favor of slave wages and indentured servetude.
As long athey know their place and take whatever scraps we throw them no problem, huh Buckeye?


The saddest part of this thing is how so many people do not have the smarts to underseand legal imigration vs illegal immigration. A Pox on our school system for allowing mass ignorance to florish.

[bigmack]

As for the "mexican problem" I don't think there's any problem at all. They come here, they work cheap and they don't collect much. What's the problem?
Pluralize problem and know your facts. At first blush most fall into your camp of thinking. Delving a bit further the financial drain speaks far louder than cheap labor:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household. Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

[Secretariat]

Did you notice where I started my statement with depends where you are? That means, it depends where you are. In the DFW area, the Farmers Branch issue has been one of the lead items on the news for most of the year, and a good chunck of last year. It would help before you respond, if you were able to comprehend the first four words of the post you are responding to.

It was quite easy to understand what you said. My point once again is that it doesn't matter what happens with Farmers Branch or even all of the Dallas local news, GW will sign this amnesty bill because "nationally" Iraq is what is getting the medias attention, and the attention of the majority of the people. I'm not in favor of this amnesty bill, but it is going to happen just as sure as GW was going to find a way to invade Iraq.

[GaryG]

it is going to happen just as sure as GW was going to find a way to invade Iraq.It must be a violation of TOS to bring Iraq into every thread. If it isn't it just makes you look rather....you know.

[Tom]

He rqally does get boring, doesn't he?
Can't seem to talk about anything else.
Reminds of a baby playing peek-a-boo....
I think my IGGY is about to grow yet again.
Funny how evey time I add a name life gets better.

[hcap]

Sec brought up a larger context of taking the focus off Iraq from a political point of view. I don't think he steered this thread too far off. Besides the right on this board will do similar. Grow up kids.

I think the real problem is the failure of bush and his supporters in Iraq. And the evidently painful realization by those here of just how wrong they were. And the enormous consequences of being that wrong.

Iraq is something that many of youse guys would like to simply go away from view. After dumping your screwed up geopolitical pipe/childish/adolescent/wet dreams onto the rest of us and the world, now you try to ignore that little voice bubbling up from depths of conscience saying OOPS. Well there ain't no do overs. And we won't go away

Just practice saying over and over again, as the great Gilda Ratner might say as Emily Litella, never mind!
Well to all youse Litellas (please forgive me Gilda), come out from your cute little Iggy encrusted little rooms and see the shambles that bush brought.

Tom and other Iggy aficionados I guess are just a microcosm of the diehard 28 per centers whose favorite eyewear is a nice comfortable set of blinkers

[spilparc]

The death of America is immienent.
It's been a great run, but Uncle Sam has been given last rites.

I agree now with the 4 horseman - bring home the toops now, end the stupid war, becasue this country is no longer worth fighting or dying for.

The war was a total waste of time and money and lives. If anyone wants to fight a war on terror, let the new citizens do it. I'll be damned if I ever support any real American fighting and dying for the criminals that will soon call themselves citizens.

Today, I am ashamed to be an American.

Does this mean you, along with Alex Baldwin, Michael Moore and Barbara Streisand, will be leaving America soon? Or does it mean you like it here "just enough" to stay?

[Steve 'StatMan']

Does this mean you, along with Alex Baldwin, Michael Moore and Barbara Streisand, will be leaving America soon? Or does it mean you like it here "just enough" to stay?

Tom might be the patriotic type of guy who would leave America ONLY IF he could take Alec Baldwin, Michael Moore & Barbara Streisand kicking and screaming with him! :lol:

Where he dumps them outside the country so he doesn't have to stay near them is up to him. Might even end up a State Secret. ;)

[Dave Schwartz]

Now, I have been thinking about this "proposal." Maybe, with a little adjustment, it could be a good idea.

How about this...

point 1: Suppose the $5k "fine" had to be paid in cash. Further suppose that if you could not pay the $5k NOW then you were not eligible for amnesty and had to leave NOW.

Heck, I'd even support a 5-yr payment program. (Forget the cash deal.)

Listen, anybody who could take on a $20k debt (for a family of 4) with the actual ability to pay it within a reasonable period of time is certainly no draw down on our society.

So, if you have made a stable life, you deserve to stay. If you haven't, then out you go. NOW.


Point 2: You must have no felony convictions either before or during a 5-year probationary period. We really don't need to grant amnesty to FCA members (Future Convicts of America).


Point 3: There needs to be an exception for children born in the U.S. during the "probationary" period. If the probation is not completed (by their parents), then the children are not granted citizenship.

So, of the 12m proposed recipients of this amnesty, how many do you suppose could live up to this? And, how do we get the others out?


Opinions?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Steve 'StatMan']

...And, how do we get the others out?


If we could (or would) get significant numbers of illegals out of the country, there would be no need for any legislation or compromises. That's the other key half to the problem.

With new-borns, maybe we need to grant citizenship only to "Registered U.S.A. Born or Foaled". :ThmbUp: for now.

[JustRalph]

If this thing passes........ it will wilt on the vine............ the illegals will ignore it. They aren't going to pay 5k. They aren't going to send head of households home to do paperwork to re-enter. And if they do go home, they are going to have to bribe somebody in Mexico to get the paperwork done. So, they will ignore it. Nothing will change. Bush and the Clowns in Congress will tramp around the country hailing each other for "addressing Immigration"

things won't change until the american people decide enough is enough. Street justice............

[Greyfox]

Now, I have been thinking about this "proposal." Maybe, with a little adjustment, it could be a good idea.
How about this...


Point 3: There needs to be an exception for children born in the U.S. during the "probationary" period. If the probation is not completed (by their parents), then the children are not granted citizenship.
Opinions?


Opinion:
Point 3: This kite won't fly.

[Dave Schwartz]

LOL - Fox, you are certainly right. But it sure sounded good, didn't it?

[Buckeye]

Slave wages, as you define them, while a little low ARE legal and in line with the free enterprise system.

Look that up too.

Smart Strike first and our educational system last as usual, at least as it concerns our public educational system. You'll get no arguement from me on that. Ivy League Germantown Academy, that's another story.

And it's the Mexicans who are draining our economy and that's what's wrong?

I think I've about got it. It's much more serious than that Tom and you know it. What's wrong in our Country cannot be solved by destroying what's right about it. It does no good to blame it all on a bunch on Mexicans who are only trying to make it. The system is at fault not them.

[Buckeye]

and If the system is at fault, what I mean by that is of course the Economic System that allowed this Country to get on top in the first place, and remember that an open society with a free exchange of ideas and opportunity is what allowed us to get here in the first place. Sure we're tough and have killed anybody or anything that got in our way along the line, but the main point is we've allowed for contribution to happen. That's where the Mexicans may come in. It's not impossible, right?

I'm not an excluding type of person because I've seen and learned and appreciated the advantages of not being so.

[Buckeye]

so there's nothing wrong.

That's what I said originally about the Mexicans.

Who Boy!

Let's just hope some stupid Mexican can get us out of this mess because we've given her/him the chance.

Wouldn't be the first time our system (the worst excepting all the others) did just that.

[Tom]

I have no hope anyone who starts off his life here by breaking our laws will ever solve anything.

What is so bad about people coming here legally, and joining our country instead of flocking in as they please, diluting our culture, sapping our resources.

If they thinkg they can just come here as they please and be entitiled to have us care for them, then why can't we just go to Mexico and help ourselves to their oil?? BTW, I fully support that. Mexico should be invaded and whatever we can slavage used to pay some of tthier debt to us for dumping their people here.

We do not need new laws. Contrary to the dunderhead president with no brains, we already have a copmprehensive immigration policy, a guest worker program, and more than enough laws to protect our porder.

Something else we have is a president who is a disgrace, an idiot, a POS, who will not enforce them. The problem here is BUSH. If this isn't grounds for impeachement I don't know what are. Bush is a traitor, far worse then Benedict Arnold.

And of course, a senate with less credibility than NAMBLA. ( and probably wiht a least a couple of registered members).

[Secretariat]

The mirage of NAFTA and CAFTA is that it will improve the working wages of those to our South so there is no need for them to come to America. It was baloney, and of course the only people profitting were corporations who continued to keep wages and working conditions low continuing the mass exodus of workers from Mexico to the US. In the process they also lowered the standards of wages and benefits for working Americans in the process resulting in increasing health care costs while wages have remained stagnant and benefits reduced.

Illegal Immigration will continue whether this amnesty bill is passed and it is ludicrous that illegals here are going to go back to Meixco and pay a fine and then come back in. Somebody drop the net on those beleiving that is going to happen - regardless of party. Building a wall may feel like its doing something, but it fails to deal with root issues, and only invites continued confrontation.

The questions that need to be asked is:

1. Why with the advent of NAFTA and CAFTA are workers south of the border still racing across our borders? They're certainly not racing across the Canadian border into this country?

2. In lieu of the failure of these ridiculous policies what can be done to "motivate" (not deter) Mexicans to not immigrate to America en masse, or to at least follow the policy that other immigrants from other countries need to do to apply for citizenship?

3. What are the limits we are ready to apply in terms of enforcement of current laws in regard to BOTH illegal aliens and the employers who continue to hire them?

4. What are the standards for accessing the welfare aspects of the country by non-citizens?

5. Is it time to amend the constitution so that children born in the US do not automatically gain American citizenship, unless one of the parents attain citizenship?

There are a lot of questions beyond this. Unfortunately, the debate on this has been NOT about questions, but simply about walling them out or giving them amnesty. Both do not deal with the core issues that have created the problem.

However, the issue is as JR has said, a feel good measure for Bush and for members of the Congress to look like they're doing something without upsetting the second largest racial populace in the country - Hispanics and threatening their voting bloc. I watched the news weekend shows. Almost all of it was about Iraq. Until Iraq is off the national TV, immigration will continue to be considered a nusiance than something which engages the entire country in real debate. Bush has hamstrung the attention of the country with this war, wheter you're for it or against it. Things like health care and immigration just are not resonating nationally enough to create real action.

[Greyfox]

The questions that need to be asked is:


2. In lieu of the failure of these ridiculous policies what can be done to "motivate" (not deter) Mexicans to not immigrate to America en masse, or to at least follow the policy that other immigrants from other countries need to do to apply for citizenship?

.

A huge moat with hungry crocodiles.:lol:

[JustRalph]

A huge moat with hungry crocodiles.:lol:

Land mines are cheaper.

[Tom]

how this for a reason...Mexico sucks!
It is a failed nation and ripe for picking.
And they have oil.
Bingo!

[GaryG]

We could have had all of it we wanted after the Mexican War. How about we take it now and give them back CA? Maybe not, then Nevada and Arizona would be invaded by illegal aliens.

[chickenhead]

The demographic trends are pretty clear, California will be a majority Hispanic state soon.

I learned another Demographic projection the other day, in the not too distant future Yemen will have a larger population than Russia. White Europe is in a death spiral, most of Europe will be majority Muslim in my lifetime, most the of the western US hispanic.

Oh the times, they are a-changin'

[GaryG]

Yemen will have a larger population than Russia.They will have to stack them pretty high! That would be something to see....but only briefly.

[chickenhead]

at the current birth rates the populations of Russia, Spain, Italy etc. are going to roughly halve in thirty five years. The only pockets of growth in Russia are, you guessed it, muslim.

There is that old saying "May you live in interesting times". I get to watch Western Civilization essentially commit suicide. Pretty wild.

[Tom]

But CH, we have the great eqalizer.......

[Greyfox]

But CH, we have the great eqalizer.......

The current, and temporary administration of Pakistan is in huge trouble.
Today's Prez there, may be gone shortly. He's the next door neighbor of an idiot and it's rubbed off on him.
Turns out that he's a creep who's been suckholing to the U.S. or whoever
else he can bet mileage from.
And vice versa, our Prez GB has been paddy wacking him on the back.
Well that's not a nick nack paddy wack.. but give the dog a bone.
Ain't going over so big in his own country though..
His govt. may be due to ....fall....
Unfortunately from Afghanistan, the Taliban's have moved in.
There is an " Islamization " program going on.
The country faces a possible melt down.
Check out =
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/opinion/2007/May/opinion_May70.xml&section=opinion&col=

So what does this mean to you and me? Why should we give a s..t?
Simply stated, Pakistan has had nuclear arms for many years.
If the govt. falls.. as it probably will...
and in other news some of our tax dollars are going to bolster

.http://www.dawn.com/2007/05/21/top9.htm

[Greyfox]

But CH, we have the great eqalizer.......

So do they. "They" have the "great equalizer" too.

It turns out that some other countrys have big boom banger bombs as well.
Maybe, they have some capacity to send them...in some way.
One of those country is Pakistan.
Check out this "hero" , Prof. Abdul Qadeer Khan
for instance.
http://www.ias-worldwide.org/profiles/prof85.htm

In the meanwhile, PAKISTANI President Pervez Musharraf
is in a state of overthrow. His policies have been highy unpopular.
GW pats him on the back. In the meanwhile,...
the Taliban, the al Queda have snuck in the back door.
Simply stated, there is a tremendously strong
Islamization of Pakistan movement taking hold there today...right now.
Musharraf is ...corrupt? Certainly unpopular and may be overthrown.


Hailed by Washington as a ‘democratic statesman,' Musharraf's government has arrested and jailed large numbers of people without trial. Many have been tortured. Elections have been crudely rigged, legislators and judges bribed, and most of the army and intelligence service's most capable, patriotic officers, were replaced at Washington's demand by compliant yes-men. Now, Musharraf's security forces are intimidating Pakistan's free Press, one of its few remaining active democratic institutions..

So who else is taking hold there.
1. the Talibans
2. the al queda -(weren't we chasing them?)
3. various tribes

Eric Margolis has remarked at
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/opinion/2007/May/opinion_May70.xml&section=opinion&col=

"Time is fast running out. A nuclear-armed Pakistan facing regional, tribal and ethnic unrest or conflict is a hugely dangerous threat demanding urgent action."

[Greyfox]

Oops. A draft and a post got sent. Sorry. Same idea though.

[skate]

Imagine this bill IF Iraq was not at the forefront. The American public would be inundated with it. Immigration would actually be a huge issue. Now, we are heading to an acqueisced amnesty. Silent, and slow. This is going to be passed, and GW will smile as he signs it.



oh yeh, now i get it, "Imagine", i can imagine your imagination and now "i" manage.:rolleyes:

now, all i have to do , is ask my imagination "hey, how long has this been going on"? Da...

put that to music, will ya.


and and, why do i feel as if i need to explain?


well, ok, you see, Iraq situation is about 5 years duration.

the "soon-to-be-legals" has been going on for 25 to 30 years. just IMO...


:eek:

[skate]

Did you notice where I started my statement with depends where you are? That means, it depends where you are. In the DFW area, the Farmers Branch issue has been one of the lead items on the news for most of the year, and a good chunck of last year. It would help before you respond, if you were able to comprehend the first four words of the post you are responding to.


Isbets;

hey, also, you are asking for an awful lot, when asking "some";) to notice.

and and and , paaaalease, refrain from the "Comprehend stuff", enough already.

:D

[skate]

after they change the name for New York City to "Tortilla Flats", what are we gonna call the yanks and mets.?:confused:

[ljb]

I want to personally thank you fellows for giving me such pleasure watching you bitch about getting what you voted for. :jump: :jump: :jump:

[chickenhead]

I want to personally thank you fellows for giving me such pleasure watching you bitch about getting what you voted for. :jump: :jump: :jump:

The Democrats? Aint they running the legislative branch now? Bunch of morons, the lot of them. The Republicans are owned by the Chamber of Commerce, the Democrats are so stupid they just think its the right thing to do.

I despise both equally.

[bigmack]

I want to personally thank you fellows for giving me such pleasure watching you bitch about getting what you voted for.
And there it is. The motto of the far left. We're spectators - you're doers. We wait for things to go wrong so we can point a finger at the players even though we're not in the game.

ljb, aka - The Mayor of Shadenfreude

[Tom]

That;s funny coming from Ljb - who's own slate of nitwits has managed to do NOTHING in almost 6 months. Even a dem victory could not give the 4 horsemen anyting to brag about - they still get thier jollies throwing rocks at the repubs. How sad to have to life like that.......losers. :lol:

[Buckeye]

Numbers don't mean that much.

E = MC squared does. So they can breed pretty good, so what?

I don't think the future of this World as we know it will be determined by who breeds the most best.

It really all depends of who comes up with the SOLUTIONS that will allow the human race to continue and where they come from-- they will rule the world.

That's why I'm betting on the USA. Who the F do you want to bet on, Yemen?

As for invading Mexico I'm not completely against it but then again, what do I know? Nothing at all. Leave Mexico alone and let them decide when they want to join us voluntarily. Meanwhile, remember the Alamo and good freakin luck they spell the end of us.

[chickenhead]

I don't think the future of this World as we know it will be determined by who breeds the most best.

Throughout history, you will find that young men drive change, not old men. Countries that breed have young men, countries that don't, don't. Muslim communities have 50% of their population under the age of 15, Western Europe, Japan, Canada, all are getting very very old....when is the last time old people took to the streets?

The funny thing about democracies is the majority tends to have the power. Europe will be majority Muslim in your lifetime. Number 1 babies name in Belgium right now: Mohammed.

If you don't think demographics matter (especially in democracies) you're fooling yourself.

[chickenhead]

"Civilizations die from suicide, not murder"

Arnold Toynbee A Study of History

"In our own time the whole of Greece has been subject to a low birth rate and a general decrease of the population, owing to which cities have become deserted and the land has ceased to yield fruit, although there have been neither continuous wars nor epidemics...For as men had fallen into such a state of pretentiousness, avarice, and indolence that they did not wish to marry, or if they married to rear the children born to them, or at most as a rule but one or two of them, so as to leave in affluence and bring them up to waste their substance, the evil rapidly and insensibly grew"

Polybius The Histories, Book XXXVI (150 B.C.)

"We're the ones who will change you. Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman is producing 3.5 children. Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours."

Mullah Krekar Dagdladet (Norwegian newspaper) 2006

[JustRalph]

Those with the biggest guns survive...............

[chickenhead]

things have their own momentum, I'm just being a realist. The only constant is change. Cultures turn over.

Just did a quick google search, this one is mine, I just minted it, trademark it baby:

"Breeding is fundamental"

[boxcar]

Tom does seem to get upset when bushco goes against his wishes, don't you think ?

Certainly, no more than you.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Tom,

I'm glad you finally agree with us.

As to singling out Ted Keneedy, you do know both McCain and many Repubs, as well as Bush is in support of this amnesty program. JR, it will most likely pass and nobody is going to like it....including me.

"Amnesty program"? Wholesale Scamnesty would be more like it.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Good points. But would someone registered with this "Z Visa Status" be entitled to vote?

Forget "Z" Visa Status. A totally unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. Texas has already discovered hundreds of illegals registered to vote, and this is probably only the tip of the iceberg.

Besides, DemRats are staunchly opposed to any "obstacles" (read: the institution of common sense safeguards) being opposed on ANYONE who wants to vote. (The operative term here is "anyone" for those a little slow on the uptake.). Liberals care not a whit about diluting the votes of real citizens with the votes of legally registered non-citizens or illegal aliens. Evidently, all votes are equally valid. All votes should be counted. And most of all -- All votes count. After all, this is the Land of Golden Opportunity, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[skate]

and and and , least we forget, the dems congress have named at least 12 buildings:rolleyes: in only 48 weeks;) .


we're moving now...just gonna take a little time. patience.

[ljb]

Keep it coming guys. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Buckeye]

Number of competitors only in that they have large numbers of possible winners. Problem is, they don't have the right mindset to rule the world so let's reduce that by a factor of 10.

The correct mindset is Freedom Equality and Opportunity and just guess where that came from?

Not to mention, we have the Guns to kill them if we want to and we are a Breed Apart and always have been in the sense that go ahead, make our day if you will..

The USA is a combination of strengh and intelligent thought that is not obvious if you follow the NY Times or some other shit. We INCLUDE all contributors, which includes destroying our enemies and that's about all I have to say about it.

Killing is not really intelligent but try telling that to us.

We have allot to learn but some of surely will and that's where the Mexicans disappear. How the hell could Mexico (nice rhyme) do anything at this point?

Mexico?

Been there done that don't need to do it again Mexico it a third world country with oil so what. They have no means to attack or threaten us and they should be welcomed to CONTRIBUTE to build our "free society". I love Mexicans even though they can't speak English (some of them). Get over the Mexican threat and think more about a greater one, maybe the Mexicans won't be able to bail us out and we will be screwed.

:)

[Tom]

You gotta be kidding me....Mexico is already occuppying us.
They have husrt far more than Al Qeda ever has.

[Buckeye]

It's much more likely Tom, that "the Mexicans" will become a State of ours rather than destroy us. Don't see either event happening but what do I know? I'm about done arguing this easy arguement.

The USA is still alive today as far as I can tell and Mexico too.

Vive la France!

[Tom]

Funny you should say that....FRANCE is cracking down on illegal immigration big time. They are also trying make it a requriement that all immigrants speak French.
They are focusing on border control and social reforms.

The French are getting it together - tired of the socialist failures, the real French are beginging to take back thier country.

[bigmack]

Keep it coming guys.
An abbreviated drive-by from a skewered troll.

The likelihood of a reoccurrence? 1 to 5.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/21434833.gif

[Buckeye]

The French are no factor anymore as a Country, only as a wine producer. They should be thrown out of NATO and should in fact become our 51st state seeing as we rescued they're sorry ass!

So we're really talking about World domination in this thread and not mexicans.

That's what I thought.

Cut the crap out about the mexicans and focus more on what it takes to rule the world (a pointless exercise?) why don't you?

The USA is far from dead my friend and get used to it. We are a combination of good and evil, strength and presumed weakness and I am assuming you are a citizen.

Why the hell else would you make such an outrageous statement about Mexico destroying us when we already did that to them? and could do it again and again and again if need be.

I get the sense of your drift (fear) of what might happen but I don't think for a second that "the Mexicans" are the problem.

Up yours Mexico and remember it's up to US to rule the world should we be so inclined to do so. Naturally, there will be those that disagree with me.

The USA is a melting pot of good ideas that will hopefully allow the human race to survive even though we have done so much to make that impossible.

Look it up again.

[Tom]

We are a melting pot with LEGAL immigrant, not the occuppying army.
THIS is the crux of the problem.

[GaryG]

Mexicans don't melt anyway...they will ALWAYS be Mexicans even after generations. Secure the damn borders with armed guards that have orders to shoot to kill. That might help the "situation".

[Greyfox]

The other evening on CNN I heard Anderson Cooper mention
that while the majority of illegal aliens arrive via the Mexico - U.S. border,
70 % are from other countrys including China.

Wikipedia is reporting that number is 43 % are from other countries:

"According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, Mexicans make up about 57 percent of the illegal immigrants with another 24 percent coming from Central American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American) and South American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American) countries, approximately 9 percent from Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia), 6 percent from Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) and Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada), with the remaining 4 percent from the rest of the world.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#_note-1)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Origin

Does anyone have a handle on the correct estimates from Mexico vs.
the rest of the world?

[chickenhead]

two people on Lehrer last night said 70% from Mexico. Not sure there are any real solid numbers.

[Buckeye]

all right, go ahead and kill ALL the Mexicans if that will solve the problem.

It won't.

Nice try anyway since the real problem threatening the USA is non existant in the first place!

We're still here, and the Democrats (democruds?) will win the next election.

I'm betting on the "mexicans" who are here will come here and so on, be that illegally or not, for the purpose of contributing to our Country.

Viva la Pancho Via!

as I sometimes say . . .

They're a bunch of mexicans for god's sake. Get a grip.

[Tom]

You have no clue what you are talking about, do you.
Tell you what, you like them here illegally so much, how about YOU pay for them and give me my tax money back? And when the committ crimes, which tens of thousand of them do, YOU pay back the victims. And instead of California taxpayers footing the bill for bi-lingual crap , how about You pay for it all?
And when they start selling those drugs they smuggle in at shools, how aobut YOU go take care of the dealers?
And all those who are in the process of legally coming here, how about YOU go tell them to get to the back of the line.
You apathy makes you a prime candidate to be a perfect citizen.....of FRANCE,
but not Amercia.

I got a grip - how about you get a clue? Thay are a mass of liiegals, many criminals, many disease ridden, all costing our country billions of dollars.
It is pretty stupid to think that a buch of third world, unskilled people will contribute anything - that is why there is a third world - they live there and contribuite nothing.

[bigmack]

Buckeye has no valid point to make he's simply reacting to his own naitivity about the situation by exclaming "there's a pile of Mexicans - what's the problem?" He, like most, is not even close to grasping the repercussions that this invasion has had and will continue to have. With that in mind, there's no point in even addressing his comments.

The culture of what America is about, is much of the problem as time marches forward and we see the attrition of those that simply refuse to assimilate into this country. As I live in Southern California I can attest to the fact that there are many, many Mexican immigrants that are the nicest, kindest, most hard working people you would ever meet. They're also anxious to become part of the American fabric as they recognize the value of this countries formidable assets.

There are far too many others that have no interest in assimilation and become what's referred to as hyphenated - as they live here though their heart is with Mexico. In this land - in this day, as with all days, with all immigrants - You live here - you become an American - LEGALLY.

[boxcar]

....land of the free, home of the FOOLS. :mad:

And if this Scamnesty bill passes, it'll also be the home of an appreciably greater number of high school (and quite possibly grade shcool) dropouts who will spend most of their life earning minimum wage or slightly above, all while having large familes and paying not a red cent in taxes due to their low income bracket. Just think for a moment what this will cost the taxpayers! The will pay zero in taxes while the more educated, more skilled people of this Land pick up the incomprehensibly large tab for all the entitlements of the low wage earners. This in turn will mean huge tax increases for those who earn enough to pay taxes.

And here is the megabytes of irony in all this: Hasn't the offiical government line for decades been how terrible it is for U.S. citizens to dropout of school, and how this kind of action adversely impacts American society? Yet, it's somehow a very good thing for Mexican, Honduran, Nicaraguan dropouts (and I suppose any other dropouts from other ethnic groups living south of zeee border) to migrate here and become part of our society.

Boxcar

[Ponyplayr]

Give me 12 million Mexicans any day. Not one frigging Muslim.

[delayjf]

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/will052407.php3

Great Article by George Will, some key points:

From 1990 to 2004, Hispanics accounted for 92 percent of the increase in poor people. Only 53 percent of Hispanics earn high school diplomas, the lowest among American ethnic groups. Half of all children born to Hispanic Americans in 2005 were born out of wedlock — a reliable predictor of social pathologies.

And the cost:

On Monday, however, Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation stunned some senators who heard his argument that continuing, under family-based immigration, to import a low-skilled population will cost the welfare state far more than the immigrants' contributions to the economy and government. He argued that low-skilled immigrants are costly to the welfare state at every point in their life cycle and are very costly when elderly. Just the 9 million to 10 million adults already here illegally will, if given amnesty, cost an average of $300,000 — cumulatively, more than $2.5 trillion — in various entitlements (Social Security, food stamps, Medicaid, housing, etc.) over 30 years.

[boxcar]

Give me 12 million Mexicans any day. Not one frigging Muslim.

Good. And for those of us who staunchly oppose income redistribution schemes, we'll give you and your ilk the tab, too, for those Mexicans.

Boxcar

[GaryG]

Give me 12 million Mexicans any day. Not one frigging Muslim.Easy....just move to So Cal....they have 12 million Mexicans.

[Tom]

Jeff, this is the goal of democrats - more poor, more dependant on government. Dems do want prosperity. They embrace failure, poverty, ignorance.
It's like the kid that gets called in to the High School guidence couselor and told heis ranked #97 out a class of 100, and what does he have to say about that?

"GREAT! Who are #98,99, and 100? I will hang out with them and be thier leader!"

Ah, dems, can't live with them.... can't live with them.:lol:

[skate]

tom, i always stop and read your post.

this is coming from a guy that was put out of business in 1989 and again in 1997. and for the most part, the people from So. Amer were the reason. but not the fault. i fault myself and big business and the Gov.(both sides) along with the friggin Media.

the problem is Here and Its been Here for a long time and it aint going away overnite. no mater what Bill is passed.

we have laws on the books already, that , if a follow-through were put into use, it would start to correct the problem.

[46zilzal]

Easy....just move to So Cal....they have 12 million Mexicans.
it used to be their country

[delayjf]

it used to be their country

Are you saying we should give it back?

[GaryG]

Are you saying we should give it back?Should we give it back to them or the indians? Who deserves it more? You have no answer though do you 46?

[46zilzal]

Are you saying we should give it back?
no, simply pointing out history

[GaryG]

no, simply pointing out historyWell, I think we all know that much. You have no point then??

[Buckeye]

you guys are just having problems admitting what you say you believe in, which is Freedom and Opportunity.

In fact I have a very valid point.

Talk to me about dollars and you're really not talking at all because it's not about money when it comes this.

Stop blaming the Mexicans for what's wrong and tell me what is?

Or maybe you want me to do that? I'll tell you again there's nothing wrong with Mexico or the USA as a clue..

Seems to me you're making some kind of money arguement-- what could be less important? If you disagree with that you are no more than a bean counter soon to be extinct homo sapien.

The only hope we have of surviving as a species is to work together (I know that's allot to ask) and allow our minds to cooperate. Maybe I'm just a "bad seed" in the human race, but it's not the 18th Century anymore and anytime you all want to HANDICAP a race, just let me know. :)

Mexico is not the problem case closed.

The problem is insecurity that relates to who we are.

We are trash. Anyone want to dispute that?
.
Didn't think so.

[46zilzal]

Well, I think we all know that much. You have no point then??
The entire culture of S. California is synonymous with the culture of their southern neighbor as I grew up there. I have first hand knowledge...Is it any surprise they people of the same culture want to live there?

[bigmack]

you guys are just having problems admitting what you say you believe in, which is Freedom and Opportunity.
12-20 million not enough for you? Weird how virtually every country on the globe has an immigration policy to abide by. From the sounds of it you could solve a myriad of the worlds problems just by propagating your fantasy world towards others. Grow up and please stop saying Da Plane - Da Plane

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/Fantasy_Island-723858.jpg

[Buckeye]

too late for me to grow up.

Handicap a horserace. It's pretty simple, the Mexicans are not the problem.

We (you and I) are. Hey wait minute! What the F is the problem in the the first place? Money? Ok, let's just state that and agree on that and them maybe we can solve "the problem" :cool:

Again, it ain't the Mexicans.

The mexicans are coming across the border to make money and share in our wealth. The Mexicans are doing what's best for them and "supposedly" for us by joining us, and we would support anyone who dreams the American Dream, right?

Are you against people joining us?

Didn't think so.

[bigmack]

too late for me to grow up.
Your posts are jarring my memory of a root canal that I've long since forgotten. Thanks for nothin'

[GaryG]

The Mexicans are doing what's best for them and "supposedly" for us by joining us, and we would support anyone who dreams the American Dream, right?

Are you against people joining us?

Didn't think so.Well you should have thought so. The American Dream does not include foreigners who are here illegally, whether it is better for them or not. The best thing for us is to have secure borders...very secure borders.

[Buckeye]

Well now, we have simpified it as a tooth problem! My best advice is, the Mexicans have nothing to do with your teeth. If you wish to stop the pain in your root, don't look to Mexico and rather look to the canal of your thought as a human being (killer homo sapien), and remember that each and every Mexican thinks he or she is as much of one as you are.

It's really all about ideas that will or will not allow us to continure.

I'm all grown up now so maybe you can think of some other way to attack me. I'm over the age of 12. That's all it takes boyz.

[Buckeye]

Gary, what the hell is "illegality" when it comes to coming here? The laws are comepletely arbitrary and you know it.

Somebody please help me when I say that Freedom and Opportunity and Equality are dead.

Didn't think so.

[GaryG]

Gary, what the hell is "illegality" when it comes to coming here? The laws are comepletely arbitrary and you know it.

Somebody please help me when I say that Freedom and Opportunity and Equality are dead.

Didn't think so.Once again, you should have thought so. Legal is legal and it is in no way ambiguous. Plenty of immigrants came here legally. We can't ever be safe without secure borders. I'm sure you know how many aliens from all over the world come across the Mex border. We do not owe ILLEGAL immegrants a damn thing. Maybe either a bullet or a quick trip to jail.

[Tom]

Mexico is not the problem case closed.

The problem is insecurity that relates to who we are.

We are trash. Anyone want to dispute that?
.
Didn't think so.

1. Yes it is a problem - thoroughly corrupt/criminal government.
2. What are you smoking - that makes no sense at all.
3. Yes. Maybe YOU are trash, whatever floats your boat. Go for it. Ba all you can be.
4. Didn't thnik a lot in this tis thread, did you?

[boxcar]

Gary, what the hell is "illegality" when it comes to coming here? The laws are comepletely arbitrary and you know it.

Oh...you mean just like all sovereign nations' immigrations laws, right?

Somebody please help me when I say that Freedom and Opportunity and Equality are dead.

Let's see...

Freedom = free from [arbitrary] laws.

Opporturnity = porous borders equate to a welcome mat for any and all.

Equality = all citizens' rights should equally extend to all non-citizens.

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Years ago, I said to my late wife, that the future of the army's role would be in making a human chain around the borders......It is coming to that..

[Tom]

What better place for them to be?

The army and marines on the bordrs, the navy, coast guards off our shores, and the air force flying the sky's.

Kind of seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Buckeye]

The old way of thinking will not survive do I need to explain that?

The future is something new. The so called "Mexicans" are an indication that some of you gentlemen just don't see the train coming. If we all continue to live in the kill it world WE will in fact be killed by each other.

I'm one of those who understands that, so maybe there is hope for some of us to stop trying to kill things as a daily exercise in survival.

Case closed you win you die.

Horses are my game area and thinking is something I can do too.

Just for the record. Mexico is not the problem, our arrogance is.

Man's arrogance.

[bigmack]

Mexico is not the problem, our arrogance is.
I'd stick to horses if I were you. The only over the top level of arrogance swimming throughout the thread is your own didactic finger pointing on a subject you're far too underqualified to comment on.

I've grown tired of simpletons such as yourself accusing anyone who recognizes a significant situation that needs to addressed as being against a particular ethnic group.

[Buckeye]

Ok joker, I'll give you the chance to educate my simple mind about a subject you're holding back.

What a true clown you are.

[Buckeye]

hey wait a minute, let me do it for you.

"a particular ethnic group"

That says allot and about all I need to know about you.

Wish I could F ing think and wish I was F ing qualified to think as well as you.

We are doomed because of your thought process not mine.

You made my point better than I could.

Arrogance.

[bigmack]

I never quite heard you speak anything of the immigration policies throughout the world. Tell me not that you're foolish enough to say it's just American arrogance. Actually, tell me that is what you think & then I and all will know where your accusations stem from.

May I remind you that you are the one continually harping on the Mexican factor

[GaryG]

I didn't think so.....:lol: :lol:

[Buckeye]

well now bigmack, maybe we can discuss this after all. I'm not against "laws" per se as they relate to imigration for a very good F ing reason.

Einstein among others perhaps and so on, including my own family, would have been excluded from the USA (just ask any Native American we killed) if not for the policy of inclusion, give me your huddled masses yearning to be free!

We are supposedly not afraid of imigration and were in fact founded by it, just ask any Black American.

We were also helped by the Chinese Americans to build the railroads.

So you are definitely barking up the wrong tree of the past as well as the future.

You seem to be saying that you KNOW the Mexicans are a different case, but I'm not convinced based upon the evidence you have shown which is nothing.

[Buckeye]

ok, so I am against your laws.

Sue me.

And sleep well knowing you want to make laws.

The issue you have not touched upon is still out there, which is, why are the Mexicans bad for us?

Good luck.

and forgive me for forgetting they are "illegal"

Now if you want to enter my world just say so and good luck because you'll need it.

Seriously though, the Mexicans are not the problem and aren't even "a" problem as far as I can tell. If I'm wrong then invade freakin Mexico and kill every Mexican that lives there.

What a joke.

[bigmack]

I don't know where you're coming up with this kill nonsense but I trust it's mere dramatic effect that you're after.

I'll try & keep it simple for you. When and with what numbers would you find a line to draw? Will it never end so that we can all feel as santimonious as yourself and not have to be riddled with the arrogance that we're all so filled with as we ask for end to the invasion?

[Buckeye]

I'll take one good Mexican if that answers your question.

Inclusion brings about possibilities.

Numbers are merely a diversion. The principle is: give me your huddled masses yearning to be free. I don't know how many Mexicans that will take and neither do you.

[GaryG]

Now if you want to enter my world just say so and good luck because you'll need it.I think I like it better in my world. It is a world of laws. People obey all of the laws, not only the ones that suit them. Those who sneak across the border without authority are criminals and should be treated as such. The earlier immigrants from Europe and the current ones from Asia do (or did) it the old fashioned way...within the law. We must have secure borders. Try sneaking into practically any other country and see what happens to you. Not talking about France as they are totally pussified.

[Buckeye]

and don't bother to talk down to me because it's a mistake on your part to think you need to "keep it simple" for me.

See, there I go again trying to kill.

But after all, that's what I am a killer.

Does that explain it to you bismack or do you need more?

We both are killers from the time we were invented.

I just like to think of myself as an enlightened killer. Leave the stupid Mexicans out of this and concentrate more on the fact that killing IS the issue.

[bigmack]

I just like to think of myself as an enlightened killer. Leave the stupid Mexicans out of this and concentrate more on the fact that killing IS the issue.
You should of clued me in on your instability early on in the discourse, I would have punched out 10 posts ago.

I didn't think you had any reasonable answer to how many & when but the newsflash is that somebody has to deal with it so while your bogged down in your own personal guilt for whatever happened of yesteryear, others aren't.

The masses from the south are leaving our fair lady a bit weary

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/PrintWebStore.jpg

[Buckeye]

Gary,

black AMERICANS were brought here as legal imigrants.

How do you feel about the law now?

They were defined by LAW as some fraction of a person for God sakes.

Now we have new laws which don't do that anymore so you might say that's not arbitrary but what if the Laws changes as it surely will.

The law is written by men who have opinions which change over time and I can't think of a better definition of arbitrary can you?

Getting back to the Mexicans, they are illegally entering our country for some purpose and I say it's a Good purpose. They want to survive and proper in a better world than they have known, and if we can't provide them with that it's certainly not their fault. We are the land of opportunity or maybe you feel you want to correct me on that.

[GaryG]

Getting back to the Mexicans, they are illegally entering our country for some purpose and I say it's a Good purpose. They want to survive and proper in a better world than they have known, and if we can't provide them with that it's certainly not their fault. We are the land of opportunity or maybe you feel you want to correct me on that.Thank you, I will. We are NOT the land of opportunity for everyone in the world or even North America. We are the LOA for Americans....real, legal ones. You say it's a good purpose? I say it isn't. And I have the immigration laws to back me up. Like I said in another post, you really should spend some time in Houston, San Antonio or Los Angeles.

[Tom]

I get the impression Buckeye is here illegally. He used the phrase "your laws."
I also suspect he was out in the Texas sun way too long.

After 150+ posts, one would think he would have a clue, but I think he has an agend insead.

Whatever, he just earned leage status in IGGYLAND, where the only test for citizenship is total ignorance. He can room with Hcap until he gets settled in. :lol:

[Buckeye]

our fair lady doesn't care about how unstable I may or may not be.

She only cares about how you seem to want to exclude people from HER shores.

Give us a freakin break and leave the Lady out of it because she only contradicts you.

Let the Mexicans come here and work hard and try not to kill everything (which they will because they're human), and YOU will pay maybe 50 cents more per year in taxes to let them do it and maybe just maybe ONE of them will contribute and bail our sorry ass out.

You don't speak for her as far as I can tell.

[bigmack]

Getting back to the Mexicans, they are illegally entering our country for some purpose and I say it's a Good purpose. They want to survive and proper in a better world than they have known, and if we can't provide them with that it's certainly not their fault. We are the land of opportunity or maybe you feel you want to correct me on that.
Why stop there. How bout El Salvador, Nicaragua, Hondurus, China, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Columbia...... Bring them all in on their "good purpose".

You're confused beyond belief.

[Buckeye]

Real legal Americans?

I'm one of them Tom and Gary.

You guys are both wrong about this issue although I don't question you're both intelligent and honest. I have to believe therefore that you are both under the spell of the USA's supposed demise and are fearing the worst.

Stick with the principles that got us here in the first place.

Freedom Opportunity and Equality and I think you may just find they do mean something.

[GaryG]

Freedom Opportunity and Equality and I think you may just find they do mean something.Remember this truism for the ages: Freedom is not free, free men are not equal and equal men are not free.

[Buckeye]

Do you know something I don't about where the contribution may come from?

Maybe it won't come from anywhere and that's what I'm most afraid of.

Maybe Mexico will provide it or maybe we already know EVERYTHING.
Einstein
You make the call. Maybe I just don't fully appreciate how much we know considering how Mexico is to blame for so many of our problems.

I'll lay it on the the line for you people: unless we first of all stop this Mexico bashing and address the very real problem of our survival as a species on this planet right now, there is no hope. The reason I am so upset about this Mexico bashing is because it's related to our deep seated proclivity for killing anything and everything. Just because our nature got us this far in the first place, does not mean it will take us any further, in my opinion. The game is about over for killing since who else can we possibly kill other than ourselves? It's time to cooperate and learn the lessons of Myth and Religion and actually become all we can be (forget about joining the Army :) ),

I'm extremely pessimistic how this will turn out

but Maybe a single mexican will . . .

[Buckeye]

a little editing never did hurt and I think it's worth reading twice unless you want to disagree or challenge me to handicap a horserace!. I don’t really want to kill you now do I?

Just kidding.

It’s stupid really how much we’re prisoners of "our killing nature" and I almost forgot to ask who said that, but it's true.

Kill the Mexicans if they dare enter our border.

What a joke . . .

I can't convince Tom or Gary on this issue so how much hope do you think we have?

Not much.

[skate]

Buckeye;

im sure you know what you are asaying.

issues pop up and other people think along different lines.

i know of a state in Mex. (since you talk about killing) that has NO animals (birds, rodents, etc.) . Why, because the people killed them all, nothing remains, no animals running around.
no big deal right? but it says something about anotherr culture. and "that" is what people "here" (the ones that THINK) are thinking.

[skate]

so , in other words, we end up with a few thousands Islam Iraqis, Iraniens, along with "Whatever", who take OUR jobs and we should be happy, Right?


ok


happy me


with no room to pee:(

[Greyfox]

From what I have read, simple as I am.

uckfby has been arguing,
"Why have borders?"
After all we're all from Adam and Eve.
ig platin attempt.

:lol:

[Tom]

skate, you have way with words!
That was great! :jump:

[Greyfox]

Do you know something I don't about where the contribution may come from?

Maybe it won't come from anywhere and that's what I'm most afraid of.

.

Baffelgarb.
Whatever it is that isn't coming from anywhere and being most afraid of...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[JPinMaryland]

What state in Mexico doesnt have animals?

Gee you'd think this would have been on Animal Planet or National Geograhic or something...

[skate]

What state in Mexico doesnt have animals?

Gee you'd think this would have been on Animal Planet or National Geograhic or something...

oh yeh, good one, JP.

itried to sneak that one in here.
not that itas not true, but i forget which state. the fact that it begins with a "C" doent help, since about four or five begin witha "C".

i worked with a guy in NV., he just happened to mention, and i asked him why, he very casually said "the people killed them all"(animals).

[delayjf]

Mexico bashing

The issue is illegal immigration and its affect on our economy / society. The fact that most of it is coming from Mexico in of no relevance. I would object no matter where they came from. I don't have a problem with Latinos only illegal immigrants. The lone exception I'm willing to make is the Swedish Bikini Team - as long as they bring the beer. :cool:

[Greyfox]

It's not an amnesty bill. Mr. Bush said so. So there.

“If you want to scare the American people, what you say is the bill’s an amnesty bill,” Mr. Bush said ...

More of his comments are at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/us/29cnd-immig.html?ei=5065&en=14d081ab7d03c8a7&ex=1181102400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

[Tom]

Mr. Bush says a lot of things these days. Most of it is lies; the rest is stupidity. The only thing I believe coming out of him is a fart.
You want to scare Americans - remind them he has two more years.:eek:

[GaryG]

The USA is DEAD only if we keep them out.This is total bullshit and I am not going to rehash this whole thread. Good night now.

[Buckeye]

so It's all very nice to be a "legal" person but It's all very bad to be an illegal person with value?

I don't want legal to be the determining factor of contribution but maybe that's just me.

Call me a nut if you want, but value is above legal in my book.

Me, I'm just looking for a few good Mexicans (which does seem rather likely). "Give me your tired huddled Mexicans" yearning to be free and I'll stand on that!

The USA is DEAD only if we keep them out. I woundn't say this about everybody who wants to come here (and work hard), and maybe I'm making and exception in this case because they are our neighbors. Maybe I'm wrong to think they will contribute to whatever the hell it is we are doing here :) , but I doubt it because their mindset is more pure and inline with how our's used to be than our own presently is.

[bigmack]

Call me a nut if you want,
I was thinking more of calling you a wack job but nut works too

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/thFunny42.gif

[Buckeye]

Gary, either you do or do not put value upon contribution of these PEOPLE or you don't.

Simple as that.

[Buckeye]

You guys have forgoten the principles that created this country.

Legal anything is arbitrary just admit that much and then maybe we can talk about how dumb I am to support the Mexicans.

After all, they're not people!

You'll be extinct if you don't change that's my warning take it or leave it.

[Buckeye]

Don't waste time telling me I'm wrong about this and I'm the criminal.

Keep everybody out and see how well we do. That would be something different now wouldn't it?

[Buckeye]

The USA is dead if and only if we adopt an unreasonable exclusionary policy.

The thread starter had it exactly wrong, long live the USA because she IS allowing Mexicans not because she's not.

The principles are Freedom Opportunity and Equality.

Your move. America does not exclude people based upon these principles and I don't care what the "law" says.

[Buckeye]

sometimes you just have to take a few easy educated backed by our Constitution (al) type risks. What do you think those guys (who wrote it) were talking about anyway?

Not Mexico but they were talking about something.

Next time you have a better idea than they did let me know.

[Greyfox]

Why does the term echolalia ring a bell here?

[Buckeye]

and one more thing, if you don't think the world is screwed up you're wrong because it is, and I know that simply by reading the NYTimes upon occation. We still have allot of work to do to fullfill the goals of our Founding Fathers which I do not believe applied strictly to US citizens.

No, they were in fact talking about ALL people and so am I.

We ain't got much time left. Better ideas are most welcome. What a joke.

You might even get published! :)

[Buckeye]

Gary,

Enchillata this.

I don't speak Spanish as well as you and don't know the future but

It comes from the past, about 250 years ago I think . . . Freedom, Equality and Opportunity.

or maybe they said "keep the Mexicans out" and I missed it?

[Buckeye]

ok,

that's it!

just keep all the illegal Mexicans OUT-- and whoever and whatever will survive in the USA.

Give me a break. The USA is in fact surviving and will in fact survive for "as long as we both shall live" not because we're married but because of her strength, which is partly and I would argue mostly derived from her inclusiveness which stems from the Three basic principles.

Waiting to hear an arguement (that makes sense) to the contrary.

Didn't think so and wack job this.

You're just lucky I don't have you here and now.

It's ok to be stupid and constitutional at the same time, right?

[Buckeye]

didn't think so.

But maybe it is it ok to be correct and contitutional at the some time including her Ammendments? Are Blacks sub human? Why the need for the 14th if it wasn't already a part of the law? Maybe at some point you would want to write a better document (law) that excludes the Mexicans? Or maybe you would just want to rely on some clown Governor like Corzine?

Don't talk to me about opportunity freedom or equality unless you give it the thought it deserves.

We got one shot at survival and it's a process of inclusion.

They're just a bunch of Mexicans threatening us, right?

What a joke.

[Tom]

This is total bullshit and I am not going to rehash this whole thread. Good night now.

I found a cure for his delusional posting.....IGGY. :lol:

[Greyfox]

I found a cure for his delusional posting.....IGGY. :lol:

Right on Tom, but you should have said Good bye to b.e. first.
I found out that there are a lot of ways to say goodbye.

Dong iwoti , Totsiens ,Ah kah pah tawn zew mah ,Chihíichalòo ,Xaatrak
Khush b'shlama ,Adiós ,Nzia wefwe ,Pakul ,Ta-ta ,Ciao ,Chu bán no ,Kele mvae Joi gin ,Do-na-da-go-hv-i ,Tepre kurichen ,Ahoj ,See ya ,So long ,Jumalaga Salut ,A bon riviodisi ,Auf Wiederhören ,Shalom ,Moog zoo ,Bless
and others at:
http://www.elite.net/~runner/jennifers/goodbye.htm

[46zilzal]

[QUOTE=Greyfox]Right on Tom, but you should have said Good bye to b.e. first.
I found out that there are a lot of ways to say goodbye.

taken right out of the FOX playbook. Can't stand the opposition? just yell louder of cut their microphone.

[bigmack]

taken right out of the FOX playbook. Can't stand the opposition? just yell louder of cut their microphone.
At least they have the gonads to have the opposition on the air. We're all pretty familiar with your news sources. The motto at most of them is: eat what we feed ya. You eat it lock, stock & barrel

http://homepage.mac.com/lawrencedavid/cuteanimals/pig_eats_greens.jpg

[Greyfox]

[QUOTE=Greyfox]
taken right out of the FOX playbook. Can't stand the opposition? just yell louder of cut their microphone.

I don't think Tom was referring to you 46Z when mentioning IGGY.
I certainly wasn't. Certainly I wasn't complaining about opposition.
A particular poster was on a multi post rant that was offering little substance to the debate.
By the way, you must be tiring down a bit. It's not like you to post a sentence like the one in bold print above.

While I am directing comments to you 46Z, may I congratulate you on the title that accompanies your avotar, "Velocitician."
That's a wonderful term, which I suspect must be related to "velocity."
You coined it. To my knowledge that is a first in the English language.
Congrats. I like it. I wish that I had thought of that. Quite brilliant.

[PaceAdvantage]

The USA is dead if and only if we adopt an unreasonable exclusionary policy.


No REASONABLE person in the world should believe that all those who have SNUCK ILLEGALLY into the United States be given what amounts to amnesty.

We are a nation of laws and a nation of justice, despite what Cindy Sheehan thinks.

What a terrible injustice to those who came here LEGALLY and went through all the proper channels and jumped through all the hoops. Now they feel like suckers. Should have just broken the law and hopped the fence....

You have it wrong Buckeye. The USA is dead if it continues down its current path of lawlessness and politically correct-inspired LUNACY.

[Tom]

[QUOTE=Greyfox]Right on Tom, but you should have said Good bye to b.e. first.
I found out that there are a lot of ways to say goodbye.

taken right out of the FOX playbook. Can't stand the opposition? just yell louder of cut their microphone.


Earth to 46.....Earth to 46.......

We are over HERE.......not over THERE! :lol:

[Tom]

[QUOTE=46zilzal]

I don't think Tom was referring to you 46Z when mentioning IGGY.
I certainly wasn't. Certainly I wasn't complaining about opposition.
A particular poster was on a multi post rant that was offering little substance to the debate.
By the way, you must be tiring down a bit. It's not like you to post a sentence like the one in bold print above.

While I am directing comments to you 46Z, may I congratulate you on the title that accompanies your avotar, "Velocitician."
That's a wonderful term, which I suspect must be related to "velocity."
You coined it. To my knowledge that is a first in the English language.
Congrats. I like it. I wish that I had thought of that. Quite brilliant.

Agree. I love the term "velocitician." And 46 is not on IGGY because in order to go on IGGY, you have to be totally empty, devoid of anr entertainment of information value, and generally a pathetic waste of time to deal with.
46 posts some good racing stuff sometimes, and convinced me to learn Validator and the E/L graph stuff.

[JPinMaryland]

... her strength, which is partly and I would argue mostly derived from her inclusiveness which stems from the Three basic principles.

Waiting to hear an arguement (that makes sense) to the contrary.

Didn't think so and wack job this.

You're just lucky I don't have you here and now.

It's ok to be stupid and constitutional at the same time, right?


That's four.

[Tom]

:lol: No wonder we have so many illegals here - no one can count anymore!:lol:

[GaryG]

#3 looks like a threat....wonder who he is/was threatening...:lol:

[Greyfox]

#3 looks like a threat....wonder who he is/was threatening...:lol:

Who was he threatening? You.
(Post 195 starts out "Gary, Enchillata this." Maybe he was confusing echolalia and enchillata? He then goes on a multi post rant with no other names mentioned. I didn't think that threatening was allowed in the t.o.s.. )

[GaryG]

Well, after all of that craziness he has been welcomed to my IGGY list along with Hcap and Light.

[bigmack]

:lol: No wonder we have so many illegals here - no one can count anymore!:lol:
I hesitate to link off to a Daily Show bit, but it's mildly enetertaining:
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.j (http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=&ml_collection=76977&ml_gateway=&ml_gateway_id=&ml_comedian=&ml_runtime=&ml_context=show&ml_origin_url=%2Fmotherload%2Findex.jhtml%3Fml_col lection%3D76977&ml_playlist=&lnk=&is_large=true)

[Buckeye]

Thank you Paceadvantage for pointing out the error of my ways that imigrants need to be "legal" in order to be included along with those who made this country Great.

I don't really think you know what your talking about but hey maybe that's just me.

This Country is actually in dire NEED of new blood in order to survive and I was just trying to make that clear.

If we all agree upon the principle of excluding every freakin Mexican etc from the USA (which we don't by the way), but let's just say we did, it's still not a good idea for very obvious reasons. We were founded upon or built upon a principle and policy of inclusion.

While I fully realize that most Mexicans are completely worthless, what about the rest?

It seems to me that those who want to come here should be allowed to do so if only because they want to come here.

and I respect THEIR wishs as a person with an imigrant background.

Boy am I dumb.

and if they're coming here for "more money" than they made in Mexico, what is your exact objection to that?

Consider your beleif faith in the free enterprise system before blaming them. They are doing EXACTLY what you may have formerly said you beleive in.

[Greyfox]

most Mexicans are completely worthless,[/b] what about the rest? ...
Boy am I dumb.



No. They are not completely worthless.
No. They should not be here illegallly.
and you said it... Boy am I du...
That's the first thing you've got right.

[PaceAdvantage]

Buckeye is starting to act the part of a troll. Can't respond intelligently to other people's point of views, so wise ass comebacks and restatement of the same thing 100x fills the void.

Did I type the word "Mexican" in any of my posts? I welcome all immigrants who arrive in this country LEGALLY, REGARDLESS of nationality or ethnicity.

This country isn't in dire need of new blood in order to survive. We've got plenty of new, old and middle aged blood to go around. Your argument is silly. You act as if our borders are sealed shut and nobody has or will be allowed into the country ever again.

Mass amnesty is the bullshit easy way out. If you choose to GLOSS OVER this injustice and turn this into some RACIST BALONEY (your constant reference towards MEXICANS only serves as race bait), well then that's your problem, not mine.

[GaryG]

President Polk prior to the Mexican War: We will never get along with those people until we give them a good drubbing.

[Tom]

I want this Polk guy to run in 2008! :jump:

Let ask a serious quesiton.
How does flooding our country with uneducated, untrained, unemployed people do anything to help? If those were the qualities needed to make a naiton strong, wouldn't he third world be florishing now?

The bottom line, this whole is not about those people - it is about US. If they have a tough life in Mexico, San Smellsbad, or Gutagarbage, let them fix it themselves...like WE did.

No matter how pure and clean the water, is doesn't make the whiskey stronger.

[boxcar]

While I fully realize that most Mexicans are completely worthless, what about the rest?

Well, then...don't you think "the rest" should behave patriotically by remaining in their country in order to counter the "completely worthless" and help make their own country great?

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Backlash from conservatives to the Immigration plan is mounting.

GW still claims that those who are opposed,
“don’t want to do what’s right for America.”

Story at New York Times :

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/washington/03immig.html?ei=5065&en=a485630150ff33a1&ex=1181448000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

[Tom]

GWB is a flamming idiot. And a traitor.
Story right HERE!

Go to HELL Bush.

[Secretariat]

GWB is a flamming idiot. And a traitor.
Story right HERE!

Go to HELL Bush.

C'mon Tom. He's the Commander in Chief.

PA, when I think Buckeye mentions Mexicans he's being realistic not racist. It's not like there are Canadians swarming across our Nothern border. The immigration problem is coming from the Mexican border. We allowed Cubans to come to flee Castro. Here we have people felling poverty for opportunity.

Beleive it or not I agree that the Bush amnesty push is the wrong approach and I wish many Dem's would not use the argument - "We need these people for our future to do jobs other Americans won't." That's just bullshit. Translated it means. "We need these people to do jobs other Americans's won't unless they are paid more to do so." A guy who is offered 20 bucks an hour to pick fruit will attract current American workers. Will it push up food prices. Yep, but it'll employ Americans.

The bottom line is these "guest workers" are in reality workers who will work for cheap. So we may both be against this bill but for different reasons. I'd like to see Americans do this work and be paid a decent wage for it, rather than "guest workers" who are basically being used, and told to leave when they are done.

So we both agree that the Bush Amnesty push is something we both do not want to see. But it is gonna happen, so I'm over it.

[PaceAdvantage]

So this is a Bush amnesty push? What about the Democrats who were standing next to him when THEY announced this "bi-partisan accomplishment?"

[Tom]

That in itself is bad, but Bush has been pushing the loss of our sovereignty for a long time. His idea of what is good for us and mine are not even close. This North American union is as good a cause for states leave the union as any.
One expects stupidity like this from Kennedy - that has been his career.
Whatever it takes to stop Bush - including impeachment (felony stupid?).

[KingChas]

This North American union is as good a cause for states leave the union as any.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/04/national/main2881111.shtml?source=mostpop_story

Vermont Anyone?

[JustRalph]

Vermont has been full of nutcases for the last ten years. All the old families have moved out of Vermont. Let them go.............


The Dems pushing for this Immigration thing really believe that they are going to gain 12 million votes..........that is all they care about.

The Mexicans aren't going to do any of this shit............nothing will change.........same ole same ole.............

[chickenhead]

Both parties are specifically for mass immigration but for different reasons. All I know, and it's really all I know, is that California has absorbed about 25% of this population and it is absolutely stressing all of the local government services to the brink of failure. Our roads, schools, hospitals, and police forces don't have the dough to keep up with it, and the people are unwilling to pay more for people that are here illegally,and in many cases have no interest in being American, do not consider themselves American, and consider their culture superior to ours. We all suffer.

That is one other reason that the Feds like it. The Fed is undoubtedly running a surplus from illegals, those SS taxes add up. It is the counties and cities that take it on the chin, they have to pay for the services, not the Fed, and get very little in return. It's a clear conflict of interest, the Feds are the ones who are supposed to control the problem, but they have little incentive to do so, they get more money to spend by not controlling it.

There is a lot of talk about what is bad for poor people, how the economy has not thrown off profits for the poor, as Sec said, there is nothing that hurts the poor more than unlimited unskilled labor. That is why despite 4.5% unemployment inflation adjusted wages have fallen for the bottom 20%. Because we don't really have 4.5% unemployment. We have virtually unlimited unskilled labor.

[JustRalph]

Chicken,,,,,,,,When emergency rooms are a 50-75 mile drive away.........the Californians will start to wake up.................

[Buckeye]

Pace Advantage, if I'm a Troll then maybe you're a droll.

Just couldn't let that go by without considering what our Founding Fathers said about Freedom Opportunity and an equal Mexico.

What the F was I thinking? Get the hell out of here because this was supposed to the Land of Freedom opportunity and equality, but hey, I could be wrong.

You don't believe in the free enterprise system anymore, well guess what, you better because we (the USA) are hopelessly outnumbered and we seriously better depend on it rather than your high wage we deserve a living theory.

My education and intelligence are both above 99.99 % of this board, just for the record.

Troll this.

Keep everyboy OUT because that must be the answer to our survival even though it wasn't the factual reason we got here.

Makes sense to me.

[Buckeye]

we are all here because of an open policy you disagree with.

Keep em all out and we eventually die because that's just not the way nature works.

We got em all here? No we don't do a simple calculation please.

We can only hope for another Einstein to come along and save our superior world.

even if he comes illegally from Mexico. We have possibly ALL the humans we need?

Well I don't think so but again I am surely wrong.

[Buckeye]

I say keep all the Mexicans OUT and then the USA will not Rest in Peace.

What a complete joke and troll this.

[Buckeye]

Do you think I care if you define me incorrectly and ignore what built this country you presently have the priviledge of living in?

No.

Good luck then and NEXT Time, think before you speak from fear.

and get busy thinking about how more you know than those sick Mexicans.

[Buckeye]

the reason I give you wrong thinking people the slack to do so is because I am alligned with the truth.

ok clowns?

[Buckeye]

not that I don't love you all so please spare me the attacks not related to what I was talking about.

[Buckeye]

troll this pace advantage and live with it if you dare.

don't f with me. It's your site but I've got something else on my side.

Based upon what I've read you wrote we're on the same page.

Your move.

[Buckeye]

basically,

I'm not the one playing games with the Mexicans.

You guys had better read and understand a little bit of history and then maybe we can talk about Freedom Opportunity and Equality and the USA.

Maybe u prefer to live in ignorance and fear but I don't. They're a bunch of stupid uneducated Mexicans for God's sake!

Maybe you don't want me to bring God into this either . . .

What a joke. So it comes down to dollars right?

More jokes.

You're worried about bucks and I feel sorry for you because I'm worried about principles. Mexicans are people just like you and I are, but I'm sure you disagree with that too, right?

Not if you're smart you don't.

[chickenhead]

ok Buckeye, lets try and get you off of these meaningless tirades that amount to nothing. Whats your immigration policy? Take your freedom and equality rap and translate that into an actual policy for me.

[JustRalph]

man, put down the bottle. What the hell happen to you?

[Greyfox]

[QUOTE=JustRalph]man, put down the bottle. What the hell happen to you?
QUOTE]

Tolerated in an earlier thread:

"Thank you Paceadvantage for pointing out the error of my ways that imigrants need to be "legal" in order to be included along with those who made this country Great.
I don't really think you know what your talking about but hey maybe that's just me." - Buckeye

????
:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Apparently, Buckeye has a thing for Mexicans. Not that there's anything wrong with that....

Like Fred Thompson says, it's our country and we'll decide who gets to come in and who gets to stay.

Last time I checked, the USA was a sovereign nation and had every right to DEFEND itself against a hoard of ILLEGAL INVADERS from ANOTHER COUNTRY.

The politically correct left and the "turn a blind eye" right is going to be the death of this country, despite what Buckeye thinks....but then again...

Buckeye's "education and intelligence are both above 99.99 % of this board, just for the record"

He told us himself.....(and hey, how can you argue after reading some of the prose he has thrown up here lately)

[Greyfox]

Buckeye's "education and intelligence are both above 99.99 % of this board, just for the record"

He told us himself.....(and hey, how can you argue after reading some of the prose he has thrown up here lately)



Re: Buckeye's "education and intelligence"
If true, there rest of us are morons. (That's the pecking order. Idiots are brighter than imbeciles who are brighter than morons.)

Re: The Prose he has thrown up here.
That's exactly the problem. Vomit has quite a stench.

[Tom]

He's going to post once for every illegal here.:lol:

[Buckeye]

content, not style is important.

I'm handicapped :) what can I say?

I agree with you Pace Advantage that my style is weak but the content . . .

It's there. I'll back off and say maybe it's not 99.999% and might be closer to one (just kidding) but you get the idea. I agree with you that laws are necessary and must also be reasonable, but they are ALWAYS arbitrary.

Maybe you didn't quite follow that last part but it's true.

So get off your high horse and tell me how Mexico of all places is threatening the USA? We got what they're after (proof by example) so let's please not throw that away thank you very much. They're coming here to destroy us? I don't hardly think so. They are coming here because what else can they do is more like it. And I persist in making the statement that there are a few good Mexicans among them who very well could help us further the "American Dream"

Where did I go wrong, was it content or style?

[Buckeye]

My imigration policy is:

test them and see if they qualify to enter our special world.

and don't exclude them simple because they're "Mexicans"

and the USA is not dead yet Tom, and especially not because of the Mexicans.

She may be dead but it ain't because of "the Mexicans" who are not at fault for God sakes.

What's your next guess?

[Buckeye]

I'll tell you why the USA might be dead:

it's because of theories or thinking contrary to the Constitution like Slavery how about that?

Mexico is not the problem. The USA will die from within if she does, just like the Roman Empire did.

100% correct. Bonus points are forthcoming . . .

If you beleive Mexico is the problem and causing the death of the USA please raise your hand.

What a joke.

I few million Billion Mexican illegals what do we care since we have the answers anyway right? Exactly.

Otherwise, keep them out on a pretext and feel good about it.

Mexico is not the problem only a possible solution. Get used to it.

How bout we build another Interstate Highway system and prove me wrong on style or content why not?

I'll tell you why not, because we can't-- and it has nothing to do with Mexico. We ain't got it anymore, except for what we have, which is exactly what this Thread is against.

We are a Country that WELCOMES contribution. The next contributors to the USA are more likely to come from Mexico than Mars according to my calculations, taking into account we are all decended from the same 1000 or so people.

If you think you're superior and an American and an exclutionist at the same time, it just makes me wonder, because that's just not how we came into being, and no we won't survive if we don't stay true to what HAS made us special, so I think you're argument is more con than pro on the survival of the USA if you want to keep people out for reasons of Nationality. Test them on something other than THAT and then maybe we have a starting point.

I want to keep people out too but not because of where they came from, ok?

[Buckeye]

personally, the Mexicans I've met have impressed me as hard working honest people although a little bit on the short side :)

They're people just like we are and it's getting a bit tiresome to keep saying that.

We all came from somewhere, be that West Africa or the Garden of Eden, and ended up here and supposedly learned certain principles namely Freedom opportunity and whatever,
(who cares right?) I care.

Maybe you care too. That's the point. The Land of Opportunity other than for Mexico?

Yeah, I've got something for Mexico in that I know there are good people there.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's not Mexicans we do not like, it's ILLEGAL ALIENS sucking at the TIT that can't afford to be SUCKED on anymore!

An illegal alien (of ANY persuasion...Haitian, Cuban, Mexican, French, Iranian, WHATEVER) is just one more strain ON THE SYSTEM that can't even handle IT'S OWN! Education, law enforcement, health care, YOU NAME IT.....it all becomes THAT MORE OVERLOADED with every single person added to the "roll call."

Why should we tolerate illegal aliens straining our already overburdened infrastructure?

It has nothing to do with Mexicans, and I can't for the life of me understand why you keep harping on that point.

[Tom]

Old lib saying, repeat it enough until it's true.

There's no place like your home,
There's no place like your home,
There's no place like your home,

[Greyfox]

Why should we tolerate illegal aliens straining our already overburdened infrastructure?
.

Why should we tolerate anyone straining any already overburdened infrastructure? (eg. A poster posting ad nauseum and adding nothing from the first post on. Just a simple example of where I'm going re: abuse of a system. ;) )

First of all there is a lot of blind eye turning by authorities, border patrol and the police. Each and everyone of these groups probably knows many many illegal aliens. So the "illegal alien" isn't considered an illegal alien until he's officially identified. Like having a disease in your body, you don't have that disease until a medical official labels it. Of course in reality you do have the disease. You just don't have it publicly until a public official identifies it.
Now having one blind eye is sometimes of value. School teachers might go nuts if they didn't use the blind eye occasionally. Having two blind eyes,
when your eyes actually see what is happening, though is total disregard for public best interests and leads to civil unrest and distrust of authority.

[Tom]

Too many of our elected officials have two blind eyes and talk out their brown eye.

McCain says the imigration compromise is a bad bill but better than nothing.
Sems to apply to his candidacy as well.

Before those morons vote on ANYTHING, try enforcing the current laws and see what happens. You remeber, those laws Americian government will not enforce.

Note to Bush: we already have a guest worker program and a comprehensive immigration program. They don't work because YOU won't enforce them, dip stick. DUH????????

[so.cal.fan]

There is a genuine complaint from the American people directed at our entire congress and senate.
How about enforcing the laws?

[bigmack]

Get any bill off the table until the bill that passed the fence has been realized, which, if done under current levels of production, will take longer to complete than any of our lifetimes.

Sec keeps referring to this bill as a shoe in to pass. I'd love a piece of that action if you'd care to engage in a side wager. There's no way this bill passes.