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46zilzal
05-16-2007, 09:57 PM
Just finished two good books that contiune to substantiate the needless, ridiculous, poorly conceived disaster that is Iraq: Fiasco, the American Adventure in Iraq by Thomas Ricks, and Worse than Watergate by John W. Dean.

Scientific methods suggest that if the same conclusions keep popping up after independent assessment, the chances of them being accurate increases markedly.


Over and over and over and over: we are fed the same bull shit

philsfan07
05-16-2007, 10:18 PM
Over and over and over and over: we are fed the same bull shit

over and over you post the same bull shit

Tom
05-16-2007, 10:39 PM
Two crackpots write books and suddenly we have a scientific method.
Take away 46's posts and suddenly 90% of the "pop ups" disappear.

Chef 46 serves dinner!

46zilzal
05-16-2007, 11:10 PM
over and over you post the same bull shit
strange how many independent sources find the same things about that stupid war........

philsfan07
05-16-2007, 11:26 PM
strange how many independent sources find the same things about that stupid war........

We get it, you don't agree with the war.. You hate Bush. Move on.

Greyfox
05-16-2007, 11:27 PM
46Z Do you pick your "new books" up a garage sales?:lol:

John Dean of Watergate infamy's book is 3 years old.
At any rate, I'll do you the favour of posting one of his
chapters so that we can all judge it.
Dean of course is infamous too for his advice to Nixon.

From the preface:

"In the chapters that follow, I begin where this inquiry started, with my discovery of the surprising Nixon-like traits of George W. Bush. When looking at him closely, though, I noted the early-warning signs of the undue Bush-Cheney secrecy. What at first appeared only a penchant for secrecy I soon realized was a policy of concealment that they exercised throughout the 2000 campaign. I've used examples of their campaign stonewalling because they have morphed into White House stonewalling."

http://www.twbookmark.com/books/15/031600023X/chapter_excerpt18541.html

JPinMaryland
05-16-2007, 11:33 PM
So, where is the chapter of which you speak?

Greyfox
05-16-2007, 11:35 PM
So, where is the chapter of which you speak?

Click on http://www.twbookmark.com/books/15/031600023X/chapter_excerpt18541.html

JPinMaryland
05-16-2007, 11:40 PM
Preface = chapter??

Greyfox
05-16-2007, 11:43 PM
Yes.

The google excerpt is Chapter Excerpt from Worse than Watergate.
At the following site are other quotations from the book.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Worse_Than_Watergate.htm

bigmack
05-16-2007, 11:51 PM
The latin phrase for, We all believe what we want to believe eloquently sums up the "sides of aisle" in the disperate camps that align themselves with their positions.

Arguably, there ain't no way anyone can say that serious blunders have not taken place with the hadlling of Iraq and for that, anyone with any level of intelligence can agree. With the exception of citing a book by a hack like JW Dean I applaud Zilly for not coming out with "I hate Bush & Co" thread, rather the recognition that this situation has been seriously fouled up.

JustRalph
05-17-2007, 12:03 AM
over and over you post the same bull shit

Nominated for post of the month! :lol:

Greyfox
05-17-2007, 12:08 AM
Dean's an interesting guy.
First he offers praise, then he kicks em in the groin.

In an intervew at "Buzzflash" about his book Dean said:

John W. Dean: Everything I’ve been able to discern about Cheney and Bush is that they’re well meaning. They believe that they are serving the greater good. It happens to be the greater good that relates primary and principally to Republican contributors. It’s a “what’s good for their contributors is good for America” kind of attitude. But I don’t find them to be evil men. I find them to be zealous men who can’t hear anybody other than themselves. I think they have been caught up by the power of their offices, and I find their attitude toward government very disquieting. They’ve learned nothing from the mistakes that their predecessors have made, and rather have decided to see if they can’t make all those mistakes on their own.

The interview is at http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/04/int04019.html
My guess is that you'll know what he's got to say, without even reading it.

46zilzal
05-18-2007, 12:13 AM
46Z Do you pick your "new books" up a garage sales?
It's funny: I just re-read The Robber Barons by M. Jospehson which is all about Vanderbilt, J.P. Morgan and the gang. All these years later, and the facts in that book have not changed. Temporal perspectives still do not alter the facts regaring these people. Same here: just substantiated again by independent assessment.

Greyfox
05-18-2007, 07:27 AM
Yes, on that 46Z, we agree. Good books withstand tests of time.
That's simply because we think that we are unique.
And in a way we are. But basically the dramas keep playing out.
Same drama, different actors. (Shakespeare was smart enough to pick that up.)
I've just posted an old book on another thread entitled
The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. It's principles will hold 500 years from now.

Lefty
05-18-2007, 11:38 AM
zilly, the war is stupid... ruight, riight, righto... That is if it would have been better to leave Saddam alone to shoot at our airplanes, payoff families of suicide bombers, kill, torture and rape his own people. And have a race with Iran to be the first in the neighborhood to have their very own nukes. Yep, ten more yrs of negotiation shoulda been about right.

46zilzal
05-18-2007, 11:45 AM
zilly, the war is stupid...
As many have stated, it is December 1941 and after an attack by Japan, if the rutabaga was in charge, he might have gone after Korea...........Used the moment for a personal, not reasonable target.

Lefty
05-18-2007, 11:59 AM
you're a riot, Alice...
Actually, when we were attacked by Japan didn't we attack Germany?
zilly, you're a stinkcabbage, a rutabaga is far above you.

robert99
05-20-2007, 04:32 PM
zilly, the war is stupid... ruight, riight, righto... That is if it would have been better to leave Saddam alone to shoot at our airplanes, payoff families of suicide bombers, kill, torture and rape his own people. And have a race with Iran to be the first in the neighborhood to have their very own nukes. Yep, ten more yrs of negotiation shoulda been about right.

Short memory Lefty, and Iran still won the nuclear race.

"1980 The Iraq-Iran War
Iraq invades Iran beginning a war that would last for 10 years killing over 1,000,000 people. The USA opposes United Nations condemnation of the invasion and removes Iraq from its list of "nations supporting terrorism".
Iraq is financed by Saudi Arabia and armed by the UK and USA. Ten years later these weapons would be turned towards these supporters.

The USA also sent arms to Iran secretly via Israel; both countries hoping a military coup would take place."

robert99
05-20-2007, 05:16 PM
you're a riot, Alice...
Actually, when we were attacked by Japan didn't we attack Germany?
zilly, you're a stinkcabbage, a rutabaga is far above you.


Actually, no, not for some time.

WW2 Timeline

1939
Hitler invades Poland on 1 September. Britain and France declare war on Germany two days later.

1940
Rationing starts in the UK.
German 'Blitzkrieg' overwhelms Belgium, Holland and France.
Churchill becomes Prime Minister of Britain.
British Expeditionary Force evacuated from Dunkirk.
British victory in Battle of Britain forces Hitler to postpone invasion plans (USA still not in war).

1941
Hitler begins Operation Barbarossa - the invasion of Russia.
The Blitz continues against Britain's major cities.
British take Tobruk in North Africa, and resists German attacks.
(December) Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, and the US enters the war. Germany declares war on USA

1942
Germany suffers setbacks at Stalingrad (Russians) and El Alamein (British).
Singapore falls to the Japanese in February - around 25,000 prisoners taken.
American naval victory at Battle of Midway, in June, marks turning point in Pacific War.
Mass murder of Jewish people at Auschwitz begins.

1943
Surrender at Stalingrad marks Germany's first major defeat.
British victory in North Africa enables invasion of Italy with USA to be launched. Italy surrenders, but Germany takes over the battle.
British and Indian forces fight Japanese in Burma.

1944
Allies land at Anzio and bomb monastery at Monte Cassino.
Soviet offensive gathers pace in Eastern Europe.
D Day: The Allied invasion of France. Paris is liberated in August.
Guam liberated by the US Okinawa, and Iwo Jima bombed.

1945
Auschwitz liberated by Soviet troops.
Russians reach Berlin: Hitler commits suicide and Germany surrenders on 7 May.
Truman becomes President of the US on Roosevelt's death, and Attlee replaces Churchill.
After atomic bombs are dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan surrenders on 14 August.

Tom
05-20-2007, 05:26 PM
1980...hmmmmmm.
What could have Iran done around that time to deserve invasion?

And what does your timeline have to do with what Lefty posted?

Lefty
05-20-2007, 08:23 PM
Robt, yep remember the Iraq/Iran war well and it doesn't have a thing to do with what i'm posted. So, are you saying Iraq and the U.S. would be better off with Saddam doing all the things I said? Seems like you are.

kenwoodallpromos
05-20-2007, 10:20 PM
"(December) Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, and the US enters the war. Germany declares war on USA"

So Germany declared war on the USA due to a pact with Japan.