If you were Racing Czar....

[highnote]

If you were the Racing Czar, how would you improve racing?

[Edward DeVere]

Lower takeout. In fact, I would MANDATE that any track receiving slots DRAMATICALLY lower takeout.

[BetHorses!]

I really believe the lower take is the answer

[highnote]

I would make the Tri, Super and other exotic probable payoffs visible.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

I would remove all rebates to make it all a level playing field

[highnote]

I'd give everyone rebates based on level of play -- except in the case of slot subsidized tracks. Then I would offer zero takeout.

[gIracing]

1) Night Racing. The VAST majority of races are during the week and 90% of all tracks, give or take race between 11am and 4pm. unless you are playing hookie, are retired or just betting at work, how are you going to draw crowds to the game? then everyone wonders why the avg age of a player is close to or over 50. it doesn't take a rocket scientist. Plus there is just something special about going to a say, hollywood park on a friday night.

2) Breeding. These days we breed to sell, and not to race. Think about it. The best horses DON'T RACE!!! what would racing be NOW if we still had say, Afleet Alex, Bellamy Road, Giacomo (well.. on second thought)... just good horses in general. As soon as someone wins a G1 Race they are taken to stud. This does absolutly nothing to help the game, it hurts it if you ask me. Of course people like me know horses from when they break their maidens, but your avg had no idea who say, Circular Quay was until 2 weeks ago. However this won't be accomplished until you make it financially enticing enough for Gier 1 handicap horses to actually run. (i.e Dubai World Cup, Melborne Cup)

3) Take Drugs completely out of racing. maybe with the execption of lasix. Some of my fav racing is Australian racing. the filedls are plump, the horses are healthy and none of them take drugs. Alot of our horses are a reflection of our society... drugged up making it day by day.


4) Have a "comission" type advisory board that is either oursourced or has no direct affilation with no horse racing party. Horse racing has some of the most *** backwards policies you can think of. I live in Arkansas. Guess what, you would think there would be online wagering venues ligning up to take my money. If i want to play say, Belmont, i have to drive 40 mintues to hot sprints and place a bet. can't do it online (from what I can find, and I'm not oging to do a detailed search to find someone to take my money). I use xpressbet, which I am 100% happy with, but because TVG covers the NYRA circuit, and they don't haver wagering in arkansas, I'm screwed. And then they wonder why the NYRA is always loosing money... well when you broadcast nationally, even worldwide, show commercials nationally, but only providing a way to get a ROI in 1 out of 3 states, that's pretty much a loosing forumla. That's the equilvant to seeing a mcdonalds commercial and there is not a mcdonals within 1 hour of where you are.. you might like the commercial, but I'm not going to make a 2 hour round trip for a number 3. lol, I even have TVG built in to my dish network.. :lol: AND CAN'T USE IT!!
The "commission" would also advise on things like, the takeout (which I think we have bigger problems IMHO.. keep in mind you are asking tracks to fork over half their income, not something I wuld be that willing to do either). I have been wanting to play Mountineer park for the longest time, but I can't find any video replays for the mouinteer park, racereplays doesn't carry them, and I don't bet on a horse I have never seen run with my own two eyes, but I can go to Los Al's website and get free video gate works of first time starters... it's little things like that.

overall, I think the sport is in alot better shape than people give it credit for. could it be better? yes, could any (execpt NFL, couldn't think of too many things that could improve that sport from a business standpoint)

[samyn on the green]

Devote a larger portion of revenue to grease/kickback/bribe/buy politicians to actually get something done. Without this leverage, you won't be able to lower the price on hotdogs.

NYRA used to let me in to Belmont/Aqueduct/Saratoga free because I had a NYRA ONE account and bet X amount of dollars a year. Governor Pataki forced an end to this policy because the state did not want NYRA to get any type of edge over the corruption cash cow OTB. So now I have to pay $1 like the rest of the yokels. With increased kickbacks and bribes NYRA could have kept its free admission policy for NYRA ONE account holders.

Thats why when I am racing Czar I am going to bribe/kickback/grease/buy as many of them as I can afford to.

[Indulto]

If you were the Racing Czar, how would you improve racing?My 12-step program:

1) Lower exotic wager minimums to $.25 for Pick Sixes, $.50 for Pick Fours and Trifectas, and $1 for all others.

2) Separate wager acceptance by ADWs from televising anything except live races, post parades, and, possibly, replays used by stewards as long as no live races are interrupted in the process.

3) Schedule posttimes for all tracks cooperatively and make it possible for each customer to view his preference when conflicts arise.

4) At no charge, make replays of all races for at least two years available instantly 24/7 as well as raw fractional times and actual distance run for each starter/finisher.

5) Tie host share of intertrack wagers to differences in purse levels with individual simulcasting sites.

6) Impose a maximum on any ADW's share of handle.

7) Eliminate ADW exclusivity.

8) Suspend ALL rebating subject to coordinated experimentation with lower takeout levels on various wagers in different markets.

9) Mandate adoption of standardized rules of racing, criteria for disqualification, medication, and penalties for violators.

10) Establish availability and transparency of data not previously available to the general public including, but not limited to a) wager pool information detailing sources and amounts, b) equine medical procedures, medication, and equipment, c) steward decisions and dissenting opinions, and d) detailed breakage summaries.

11) Ensure adequate insurance coverage and access to appropriate medical treatment for jockeys at all venues.

12) Establish standardized minimum criteria for backstretch living conditions.

[samyn on the green]

My 12-step program:



6) Impose a maximum on any ADW's share of handle.

How/why would you enforce this? What if a ADW goes over their quota? Do you cut the customers off mid-card? Why/how would you limit an ADW if they were most successful at marketing your signal. Wouldn't you be punishing your players and cutting off your best salesman?

[gIracing]

i'm not a fan of .25 cent exotics and .10 superfectas.

part of the alure of playing the superfecta is the substancial payday that COULD be won if hititng it.

If I were aming for a 100-500 win, I wouldn't be playing a superfecta. That's like playing the pick six hoping to get 1k back. what's the point?

If I hit a Superfecta, we need to be talking thousands (execpt on chalky races, you get the point).

The worst thing that can happen to exocits if if I get say, a 20 to 1 shot win, a 5 to 1 shot come in 2nd, the chalk comes in 3rd and a 4 to one shot comes in 4th and you get a .10 cent superfecta payout of 100 bucks, because with all of the people playing superfecta at .10 cents, you put in more tickets, wtih more tickets equal more combinations and the more combinations the more your share of the pie gets split.

part of the alure of tracks like Hollywood park and Santa anita are looking at some of the ungodly amounts of money won on Pick 4's, Superfectas and Pic Six wagering.. friday night someone won I think 132k, either friday or Saturday, because there was only 1 ticket that hit it.


I think the backstretch living conditions go up once more people get into the sport, whcih comes with some of the other solutions

[Indulto]

How/why would you enforce this? What if a ADW goes over their quota? Do you cut the customers off mid-card? Why/how would you limit an ADW if they were most successful at marketing your signal. Wouldn't you be punishing your players and cutting off your best salesman?Thanks, I meant % of wager if that makes any more sense.

[Indulto]

i'm not a fan of .25 cent exotics and .10 superfectas.

part of the alure of playing the superfecta is the substancial payday that COULD be won if hititng it.

If I were aming for a 100-500 win, I wouldn't be playing a superfecta. That's like playing the pick six hoping to get 1k back. what's the point?

If I hit a Superfecta, we need to be talking thousands (execpt on chalky races, you get the point).gIr,
I respect your position, but I think So Cal tracks should experiment with 25-cent minimum P6s under current payout rules and find out what the effect on total handle would be.

One can always bet more to win more, but most players can't risk whale-like investments to hit even a "modest" (by your standards) score. I'd be just fine with a 4-digit payoff on $100 invested in 400 combinations. The small player is further penalized by rebates which result in "free" combinations for those who qualify.The worst thing that can happen to exocits if if I get say, a 20 to 1 shot win, a 5 to 1 shot come in 2nd, the chalk comes in 3rd and a 4 to one shot comes in 4th and you get a .10 cent superfecta payout of 100 bucks, because with all of the people playing superfecta at .10 cents, you put in more tickets, wtih more tickets equal more combinations and the more combinations the more your share of the pie gets split.If you're good enough to pick them now you should be able to survive the experiment.part of the alure of tracks like Hollywood park and Santa anita are looking at some of the ungodly amounts of money won on Pick 4's, Superfectas and Pic Six wagering.. friday night someone won I think 132k, either friday or Saturday, because there was only 1 ticket that hit it.Imagine if that ticket only cost a quarter.I think the backstretch living conditions go up once more people get into the sport, whcih comes with some of the other solutionsIf you really want to get more peaple into the sport, you've got to allow them to play exotics within their comfort zone. When enough people think they have a real shot at winning the P6, those pools should be far larger than today's and the smart money will get smarter about playing them profitably.

[gIracing]

your' missing the point on superfectas. I don't have to survive off of them, because I don't bank on hitting them. I personally am not a huge exotic player.

but when I DO play an exotic wager, outside of an exicta, it's not with the idea of getting 100 dollars back.

that's all I am saying. it's not about surviving. it's about the alure of getting the ticket that could change your life. I could personally care less becuase I don't bet them enough to warrant it. But you can't talk about brining in new customers to the game and .10 superfectas in the same sentence. Granted, the avg newbie has no idea the effect, or at least what the .10 super comes at a cost at.

with all that said, I would be lying if I said I have never played a .10er at Golden Gate. and It's a novel idea. it really is, i'm not aruging that. But when you step back and take a look at it, you are dumbing down something that wasn't ment to be dummbed down. The normal payout structure is usally 1 to two digits for a win/place show, 2 digits for execta, 3 digits for Tri and 4 digits for super... what's the point of betting a super if I have to settle for an avg payout of 2 digits and in some instances...1? If I wanted to win 20 bucks, put a dollar execta on something. it's the same result, and easier, and you would have probably spent more than 1 or 2 bucks coming up with all the superfecta comibinations to get back the 20 bucks, which is a 200 dollar normal 1 dollar superfecta ticket, which is pretty chalky

[john del riccio]

Lower the takeout
TWO strikes your OUT for good drug policy
Freeze Blood Samples
Vets name in the Program
NO Year round racing ala PHA & PEN
Free admission, Parking and Program

John

[Indulto]

... it's not about surviving. it's about the alure of getting the ticket that could change your life. I could personally care less becuase I don't bet them enough to warrant it.Your passion suggested otherwise.;) But you can't talk about brining in new customers to the game and .10 superfectas in the same sentence. Granted, the avg newbie has no idea the effect, or at least what the .10 super comes at a cost at.Agreed, the 10-cent super doesn't appear to have drawn in new customers, but I think the 25-cent P6 would because horizontal exotics are inherently easier to hit than verticals. Picking a winner is easier than picking the 2nd, 3rd, and/or 4th place finishers as well. Does anyone have any data on how the 50-cent minimum P4s are doing?... But when you step back and take a look at it, you are dumbing down something that wasn't ment to be dummbed down.This is the heart of our disagreement. I don't think small players are "dumber," but you'll convince me otherwise if you can prove to me that -- on the average -- P6's are hit with 50 or fewer combinations. My experience has been such that I haven't had the pleasure of meeting a lot of people willing to bet over $100 at a time, even given today's income levels.

[SMOO]

Schedule the major tracks so that races don't go off at the same time.

[DJofSD]

Cancel any race with less than 6 separate betting interests.

[Tom]

Cancel any race with less than 6 separate betting interests.

There goes the Belmont stakes schedule!:bang:

[SMOO]

Cancel any race with less than 6 separate betting interests.

Along those lines, get rid of entries so we have more betting choices.

[kenwoodallpromos]

1) Require change of ownership to include reasons for loss of training, make it public.
2) Pay all runners minimum purse $$ and allow good racehorse owner tax breaks.
3) Allow dirt runners to run as turf maidens.
4) Twilight racing.
5) Public info: all runners' times, official "length" distance; publish width of horse on turn.
6) Eliminate inner 1/2 of 2nd turn; require some "Poly" mixed into all dirt track cushions.
7) Voucher for free entry and parking for $20 bet at window or machine at any 1 time for any number or type of bets.
8) Design pilot program of senior high school ciriculum around racing (math, science, etc); Set up free summer high school grad party with free parking, entry, band, dance, free non- alcoholic drinks, jockey meet-n-greet, handicapping lessons, prior to a Fri or Sat night race.

[DanG]

but I think the 25-cent P6 would because horizontal exotics are inherently easier to hit than verticals.
The .25 cent pick-6 would all but eliminate carry-overs which is a driving force in the wager IMO.

[highnote]

Eliminate breakage for wagers cashed at a self-service machine that are saved on a voucher.

Eliminate breakage for wagers in an ADW account.

There is absolutely no reason why breakage needs to exist when computers are used to keep track of betting wins and losses. It's simple to pay to the nearest penny.

If people want to cash a ticket at a teller window then breakage can be considered the fee for that extra level of service.

Voucher systems can also be designed so that if a wager is made at a teller window and the wagering voucher is then cashed at a self-service machine and a cash voucher is returned, then 1/2 breakage is applied to the winning ticket that produced the cash voucher. The reason for 1/2 breakage is because the customer did half the transaction with a teller.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Unless someone figures out how to increase field size and total betting pool (along with new horserace betting blood) the rest will not help.

[highnote]

Unless someone figures out how to increase field size and total betting pool (along with new horserace betting blood) the rest will not help.


Here's your chance. You're the racing Czar.

How would you increase field size and total betting pool and generate new fans?

[Indulto]

The .25 cent pick-6 would all but eliminate carry-overs which is a driving force in the wager IMO.In the last 12 months, how many carryovers were there in So Cal over what total number of cards? Of those, how many had two or more real longshots win? Even an ALL x ALL x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 ticket would likely involve 1000 combinations. As larger field sizes are expected on synthetic surfaces that handicappers need getting used to, I don't see carryovers eliminated any time soon. Now would be an ideal time to experiment.

[gIracing]

humm... allow dirt winners to race as turf maidens.... sneaky good :)

that's high way robbery for pretty much every Classy horse in the country. I bet you can take pretty much every horse that ran int he Kentucky Derby that hasn't raced or won on grass, an turf pedigree or not, the majority of them can win a turf race in hand. i'm dying to see Curlin on the grass with that pedigree

[Overlay]

Find some means of controlling late money influx/odds shifts, or re-configure the pari-mutuel system to allow betting at fixed odds.

[Indulto]

C'mon, you would-be racing Czars, Ratchet up the imagination a little. :jump:

In your hypothetical role, you'd have lots of authority to effect change. What's it going to take to maintain enthusiasm for racing into the next decade, and the one after that?

KW,
I agree with gIr that treating winners as maidens is giving away the store, but as I've said before, surface switches should be incentivized (bonus?) for previous winners trying it for the first time AND winning in the process.

[TommyCh]

ALWAYS use the standardized different-color saddle blankets, especially for the Breeders Cup.

[shanta]

I'd close the following t-bred tracks immediately:
Alb
Arp
Asb
Beu
Brd
Cby
Ct
Ded
Del
Elp
Emd
Fmt
Fp
Fpx
Fon
Fe
Gg
Gld
Hst
Haw
Hoo
Ind
Lrl
Lad
Med(tbreds)
Mnr
Pen
Pim
Pln
Pm
Prm
Rp
Ret
Rui
Sam H
Sr
Sol
Stk
Sun
Srp
Tup
Yav

From Philly and heading north ALL tracks are dark from Thansgiving thru the end of February.

Post times at tracks are coordinated to have at least 5 minute spacing tween races.

Nationwide takeout rate of:
w/p/s = 8.75%
ex/tri/super = 10%
Pick 3/4/6 = 7%

Free signal/pp's/admission/parking nationwide.

Friday night "Fan Night" with twilight racing at tracks like:
Holly
Belmont
Crc

where all fans under 30 entering track are given a $10.00 betting voucher that must be used to bet(can not be cashed for the money etc). 2 or 3 handicappers set up by management run mini on track seminars/capping races and educating the new young ones on the great game of racing t breds.

Updating all wager/tote systems with modern day technologies.

strict policing of the drug problem with VETS having the brightest lights shown on THEM at the start. Trainers/owners to follow.

No 2 year olds allowed to race more than twice and at no distance greater than 8f.

:)

[DanG]

Outstanding Ritchie!!! :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

Slice a few tracks off your out of business list and you have my vote!!!

[stu]

Outstanding Ritchie!!! :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

Slice a few tracks off your out of business list and you have my vote!!!

I haven't even had a chance to incorporate Pace Advantage's suggestions in my first season and you want to theorethically close my track. I must object!

Stu

[Steve 'StatMan']

Well, if I was a REAL Racing Czar, and there was no Casino Czar, I'd close all the non-Nevada & non-Atlantic City casinos, and take the casinos out of the race tracks.

As it is, the only thing that'll stop the hundreds of casinos is either:

1) people stop going on their own (won't happen to the overwhelming majority of them)

2) Some strong public/government action shuts them down - but anything that strong a sociological/economical/political influence would probably bring racing down as with it.

As for real world stuff that others haven't suggested already, would have to think.

[DanG]

In the last 12 months, how many carryovers were there in So Cal over what total number of cards? Of those, how many had two or more real longshots win? Even an ALL x ALL x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 ticket would likely involve 1000 combinations. As larger field sizes are expected on synthetic surfaces that handicappers need getting used to, I don't see carryovers eliminated any time soon. Now would be an ideal time to experiment.
Indulto;

I’ve personally been involved in several pick-6 this year alone with a larger investment than you’re describing and that involved $2.00 increments. I’m hardly in the largest syndicate and if you lower the denomination by 1/8th, kiss almost all carry-overs goodbye…trust me on this one.

[DanG]

I haven't even had a chance to incorporate Pace Advantage's suggestions in my first season and you want to theorethically close my track. I must object!Stu
Stu,

Your one of the tracks I would lobby “Czar Shanta” to slice off the list. Ritchie sounds like a reasonable man Stu, I’m sure we can work out something. :)

Seriously; All the best in your new position! :ThmbUp:

[samyn on the green]

Devote a larger portion of revenue to grease/kickback/bribe/buy politicians to actually get something done. Without this leverage, you won't be able to lower the price on hotdogs.

NYRA used to let me in to Belmont/Aqueduct/Saratoga free because I had a NYRA ONE account and bet X amount of dollars a year. Governor Pataki forced an end to this policy because the state did not want NYRA to get any type of edge over the corruption cash cow OTB. So now I have to pay $1 like the rest of the yokels. With increased kickbacks and bribes NYRA could have kept its free admission policy for NYRA ONE account holders.

Thats why when I am racing Czar I am going to bribe/kickback/grease/buy as many of them as I can afford to.After laying down this foundation of leverage we can finally get to work. Without this foundation layer of power you will not be able to lower the price on pretzels 10 cents without stepping on the toes of some political hack commisoner. Without the political leverage you have a huge scandal on your hands. Look at NYRA and how Spitzer manipulated a waiter taking too many tips in the Jockey Club restaurant into a major Brouhaha in the NY times. You need to bribe/kickback to shake the political heat in NY.

The first thing we will do is bundle stakes races and make a monthly festival at Aqueduct/Belmont to sort of give the place a buzz. Do whatever we can to get the racing on network TV. Even subsidize a smaller station like channel 9 WOR to show the feature race on Saturday live so more people are exposed to racing. Try to get all of the news channels to show the feature race results on the 11PM news. Offer the media all sorts of comps and grease them till the come out and start to give racing the exposure it deserves.

The Celebrity factor is a huge hook with women and we will try to bring as many women out as possible with the hook that Celebrity's are at the track. Even if we have to pay Joey Fatone to show up we will do that and show it on the news. More women at the track means more 20 year old newbies following closely in behind.

I would leave the racing office alone. Let them card the races that fill and If a 5 horse allowance has to be carded so be it. The racing secretary makes lemonade with the lemons they have in the barn. You can not force trainers to run horses that do not exist. The trainers need to make money too and you have to let them run their horses even if you have to card a short field once a day, the same trainers will help you out when you need a horse to fill a stakes race down the road.

If we have significant leverage with the Politicians we would start to move on lowering the takeout. Especially for on track patrons. We would want to lower the takeout on track to encourage the sharpies to wager directly with the track and not a ADW. We will kick back rebates to those on track as a thank you to those customers.

In addition to the on-track rebates we will actively market or on track product as aggressively as possible. The terrace restaurant at Belmont/Equestris at Aqueduct is an outstanding facility and will be actively used as a comp for the best players.

The Internet ADW product will be continuously refined/improved and will offer clear video features and easy use. We must have video so our platform is a one stop shop. This will bring in the younger generation who enjoys playing video games. We want to push as many of the players to wager directly with the track. The investment on a superior internet ADW platform is vital for future growth.

[highnote]

I’m hardly in the largest syndicate and if you lower the denomination by 1/8th, kiss almost all carry-overs goodbye…trust me on this one.

Often, several people will get together and play a pick-6 which effectively lowers the amount of each person's wager.

If 8 people are equal partners, that's only 25 cents each.

Carryovers have not disappeared due to 25 cent tickets.

In fact, you would probably increase the pool size. People would figure that since tickets are so cheap they can afford to play more combinations -- which are probably stupid combinations.

The more expensive the ticket, the more effort a handicapper will spend handicapping. No one likes to throw money away.

So maybe expensive tickets result in fewer carryovers.

Just a thought.

[bigmack]

I’ve personally been involved in several pick-6 this year alone with a larger investment than you’re describing and that involved $2.00 increments. I’m hardly in the largest syndicate and if you lower the denomination by 1/8th, kiss almost all carry-overs goodbye…trust me on this one.
Amongst your play that's one that I wanted to comment on that I once danced with and found to be less than fruitful.

Without tangentially going adrift in the thread I found being a piece of a consortium of players on P6 plays to be more of a balancing act of egos and second guessing in the aftermath than it's worth. Sole creative structures without playing 4 figure ticks leaves the winnings to yourself and the juggling of multiple ideations on race configurations to those who can afford to gobble up a preponderance of the entrants within the 6 on days of 6+ figure payouts. imo

[Steve 'StatMan']

So. Cal's & NYRA's Pick 6's are quite successful. Probably best to leave those alone. The other tracks where the wager struggles, smaller units "could" generate more interest, although one never knows - some places, the wager is mighty hard to sell. I have seen 50 cent Pick 5's at Monmouth this past weekend, and am kicking myself for getting online too late to place a wager on the cards - had a decent weekend selecting, could have hit with a reasonable amount of depth in a race or two. At 50 cents instead of $2 a combo, I could have done it. No carryovers occured on the first 2 days, and the payoffs for $1 were in the $2,500 to $4,000 range. Not life changing, but would have helped recharge my betting bankroll.

(Yeah, I know...if my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.)

[Kelso]

Greatly enjoying reading the improvements to be effected by our erstwhile racing czars. Agree with the vast majority of them.

Not so high,though, on closing tracks.

I understand the theory ... fewer tracks will concentrate the horses at those that remain open, resulting in larger fields. That presupposes, however, that most owners would remain in the game and simply move their stables to the better tracks.

Considering their aversion to genuine competition, of which I've read more than one convincing post here at PA and that seems a financially logical aversion to have ... my guess is that many will choose to not migrate to areas of stronger competition. They'll sell the horses, convert the barns to garages and field dirt-track NASCAR teams, instead.

Result: fewer horses overall running at fewer tracks .... little improvement to field sizes .... and fewer opportunities for newbies to stumble blindly into a great hobby at a local half-mile oval, perhaps while searching for their next hot slot machine. Also fewer racing jobs and a whole lot more clubhouses-cum-condos. (Or do I have that reversed?)

Instead, I would concentrate the stables by restricting racing to warm weather. (It's just this thing I have ... don't think horses should be made to work up a sweat in temperatures too chilly for most folks to be comfortable watching them in shirtsleeves from at the rail.)

I suggest minimum noon temperature, daily at the finish line, of 70 degrees Fahrenheit for a card to run :eek: , but I could probably live with 60. This would require rationing "summer" (April-September) racing dates in Florida, California, etc. ... and July/August would probably be out entirely in some areas on the hot end of the thermometer. (Maine probably gets about three days mid-August and Alaska can race only walruses, anytime. My Canadian friends, I think, should be restricted to betting malamute marathons :lol: .)

And to set the hook on the newbies once they've taken the local bait, as well as to facilitate the homebound professionals ..... industry-produced and PLAYER-FRIENDLY television coverage on several channels. One channel per major region/circuit, and one dedicated to the lesser tracks such that many will get at least one full card per week on the air. Not affiliated, in any way, with any wagering platform.

All channels provided free to any broadcast/cable/satellite outlet. Commercials only when replays/features are running ... perhaps crawl advertising during post parades.

Not a "CNBC Does Horse Racing" type show. Minimum talk, complete post parades, lots of live calls with chiclets during the afternoon/evening; replays of important/interesting/instructive races at night; feature "shows" only in the morning, prior to first race, and during the insomniac hours.

And how 'bout post parades analyzed, runner-by-runner, by knowledgeable physicality handicappers? Maybe require them to pick the ITM finishers for each race, and pay them based on the ROI of their selections.

Result: A wider, better informed and more enthusiastic universe of bettors at all levels of accomplishment.

[DanG]

Amongst your play that's one that I wanted to comment on that I once danced with and found to be less than fruitful.

Without tangentially going adrift in the thread I found being a piece of a consortium of players on P6 plays to be more of a balancing act of egos and second guessing in the aftermath than it's worth. Sole creative structures without playing 4 figure ticks leaves the winnings to yourself and the juggling of multiple ideations on race configurations to those who can afford to gobble up a preponderance of the entrants within the 6 on days of 6+ figure payouts. imo
Your right Mack, I don’t mean to drag this thread off the tracks here.

I’m the first to admit I am VERY fortunate to be with the right group of people whose egos were long buried before I joined. (Unfortunately a key member is retiring in June, but life goes on.)

I’ve witnessed bad partnerships in syndicates and could tell you some horror stories first hand. In our case we each have separate roles, so the second guessing is left to each individual if they choose to travel that destructive path. (And we all do occasionally.) It was made very clear to me we don’t question each others selections once we agreed to join. We can also pull out at any time no questions asked.

I’m 45 and the other three men are over 60 and have been around the block more than most of us. The leader of the group is just that…a leader in the best sense of the word.

It’s the best thing that ever happened to me and if the situation was right, I would recommend it to everyone. I do admit though, gamblers this grounded and pocessing high integrity don’t always grow on trees…

BTW: Not saying you were implying it (though your vocabulary does test my Jersey public school education :)) but a real misconception is its through sheer buying power that most groups hit these gambles. Sure, there are more combinations purchased but the same hard work goes into the process and I would put (the gentleman who is retiring) against any gambler with ingenious ticket construction.

I enjoyed reading this thread and sorry about the diversion…

[Indulto]

... I found being a piece of a consortium of players on P6 plays to be more of a balancing act of egos and second guessing in the aftermath than it's worth. Sole creative structures without playing 4 figure ticks leaves the winnings to yourself and the juggling of multiple ideations on race configurations to those who can afford to gobble up a preponderance of the entrants within the 6 on days of 6+ figure payouts. imoBgM,
Though cleverly obfuscated, you got right to the heart of the matter.;) The P6 is potentially racing's greatest recruiting tool, but what % of players ever hit one?Often, several people will get together and play a pick-6 which effectively lowers the amount of each person's wager.

If 8 people are equal partners, that's only 25 cents each.

Carryovers have not disappeared due to 25 cent tickets.

In fact, you would probably increase the pool size. People would figure that since tickets are so cheap they can afford to play more combinations -- which are probably stupid combinations.

The more expensive the ticket, the more effort a handicapper will spend handicapping. No one likes to throw money away.

So maybe expensive tickets result in fewer carryovers.

Just a thought.Well put, SJ. It reminded me that the lower minimum should also reduce the number of signers. What happens when a small, private consortium hits a signer, anyway. Are 1099s allocated to all participants as the Players Pool does, or are there more flexible -- yet legal -- strategies?... I’m the first to admit I am VERY fortunate to be with the right group of people...DG,
I don't expect anyone in your position to ever willingly give up a perceived advantage, but even the tracks must realize that Pick Six handle may have already peaked (or soon will) under the present pool participation paradigm.

IMO limitations on bankroll size and ego-suppression ability apear to be inhibiting wider participation. Why wouldn't profitable players like yourself be able to adjust by playing more on the key combinations you're able to isolate that most of your competition would still be unlikely to?

[RobinFromIreland]

Wouldn't anyone want a betting exchange?

[DanG]

Wouldn't anyone want a betting exchange?
Good point Robin,

Absolutely!!! :ThmbUp:

[DanG]

DG,
I don't expect anyone in your position to ever willingly give up a perceived advantage, but even the tracks must realize that Pick Six handle may have already peaked (or soon will) under the present pool participation paradigm.

IMO limitations on bankroll size and ego-suppression ability apear to be inhibiting wider participation. Why wouldn't profitable players like yourself be able to adjust by playing more on the key combinations you're able to isolate that most of your competition would still be unlikely to?
Indulto,

The newly appointed racing “Czar” will have much on their plate. Changing the dynamic of So Cal’s pick-6 I would hope would be last item on their list. Really that’s all were talking about because no other circuit comes close to their pool size.

If your theory is true that lowering the minimum bet by 1/8th would generate enough participation that the daily handle would simulate a one day carryover, I would agree with your premise. I personally don’t feel that would be the case.

Southern California is a poor example to model any nation wide policy concerning the pick-6. It has built in advantages that I frankly don’t feel comfortable discussing in a public forum, but would be glad to debate in person.

BTW: It’s not about giving up a “perceived advantage”; it’s only a desire to maximize the pool.

Before this good thread turns into a pick-6 debate, I’ll bow out here and read the interesting posts soon to come including yours.

[kenwoodallpromos]

IMO-
Field size, the attrition rate for injuries and females going into breeding must be reduced by rubber tracks, better purse structure for female races, wider 2nd turns, races written more for older (5+up) losers at 7f-1 mile.
Total pools- in addition to easier use of internet betting worldwide and more sanctioned comprehensive choices of services (less dog-eat-dog ADW competition), racing must interest younger people into become bettors and REAL non-betting FANS by using more of what attracts people generally- color, motion, sound- and to major sporting events- action, competition, good side entertainment.
Turf maidens- It is cute to knock my idea by suggesting KY Derby runners race as non-turf winners; but the fact as I see it is thast many trainers use turf races only to darken form or to give a horse an less taxing race away from dirt.
Surface switches and running on turf should be much more encouraged; there is plenty of room for NW1 or 2 for a certain length of time or distance or weight off that can be used as a turf race condition. I see no reason for instance why a trainer and owner should not want their 5 year old loser going into a "maiden" turf race of say 7f at 113 lbs vs. others who have not won 2 on dirt for one year.
Every time I go to a Ca concrete highway track the most cheering I hear is not for the lone speed who is setting great fractions- it is for slower horses who are running 2007 Bluegrass type finishes.

[Indulto]

1) Require change of ownership to include reasons for loss of training, make it public.
2) Pay all runners minimum purse $$ and allow good racehorse owner tax breaks.
3) Allow dirt runners to run as turf maidens.
4) Twilight racing.
5) Public info: all runners' times, official "length" distance; publish width of horse on turn.
6) Eliminate inner 1/2 of 2nd turn; require some "Poly" mixed into all dirt track cushions.
7) Voucher for free entry and parking for $20 bet at window or machine at any 1 time for any number or type of bets.
8) Design pilot program of senior high school ciriculum around racing (math, science, etc); Set up free summer high school grad party with free parking, entry, band, dance, free non- alcoholic drinks, jockey meet-n-greet, handicapping lessons, prior to a Fri or Sat night race.IMO-
Field size, the attrition rate for injuries and females going into breeding must be reduced by rubber tracks, better purse structure for female races, wider 2nd turns, races written more for older (5+up) losers at 7f-1 mile.
Total pools- in addition to easier use of internet betting worldwide and more sanctioned comprehensive choices of services (less dog-eat-dog ADW competition), racing must interest younger people into become bettors and REAL non-betting FANS by using more of what attracts people generally- color, motion, sound- and to major sporting events- action, competition, good side entertainment.
Turf maidens- It is cute to knock my idea by suggesting KY Derby runners race as non-turf winners; but the fact as I see it is thast many trainers use turf races only to darken form or to give a horse an less taxing race away from dirt.
Surface switches and running on turf should be much more encouraged; there is plenty of room for NW1 or 2 for a certain length of time or distance or weight off that can be used as a turf race condition. I see no reason for instance why a trainer and owner should not want their 5 year old loser going into a "maiden" turf race of say 7f at 113 lbs vs. others who have not won 2 on dirt for one year.
Every time I go to a Ca concrete highway track the most cheering I hear is not for the lone speed who is setting great fractions- it is for slower horses who are running 2007 Bluegrass type finishes.Far be it from me to knock any out-of-the-box thinking here. Your revised definition of a "turf maiden" makes a lot of sense. I would also like to see you expand on the bolded items. I couldn't agree more about minimizing insider information and making ADW wagering less restrictive.

[gIracing]

IMO-
Field size, the attrition rate for injuries and females going into breeding must be reduced by rubber tracks, better purse structure for female races, wider 2nd turns, races written more for older (5+up) losers at 7f-1 mile.
Total pools- in addition to easier use of internet betting worldwide and more sanctioned comprehensive choices of services (less dog-eat-dog ADW competition), racing must interest younger people into become bettors and REAL non-betting FANS by using more of what attracts people generally- color, motion, sound- and to major sporting events- action, competition, good side entertainment.
Turf maidens- It is cute to knock my idea by suggesting KY Derby runners race as non-turf winners; but the fact as I see it is thast many trainers use turf races only to darken form or to give a horse an less taxing race away from dirt.
Surface switches and running on turf should be much more encouraged; there is plenty of room for NW1 or 2 for a certain length of time or distance or weight off that can be used as a turf race condition. I see no reason for instance why a trainer and owner should not want their 5 year old loser going into a "maiden" turf race of say 7f at 113 lbs vs. others who have not won 2 on dirt for one year.
Every time I go to a Ca concrete highway track the most cheering I hear is not for the lone speed who is setting great fractions- it is for slower horses who are running 2007 Bluegrass type finishes.

I hope you didn't misundersatnd me.. I actually LIKE the idea. however it is true that a classy horse is stealing money.. but the idea in general is a very good one.

[Tape Reader]

If I were Racing Czar...



I would resign and let the free market take hold.



Horse racing today is where “Wall Street” was 40 years ago. The bureaucracy was suffocating it to death. We had: fixed commissions, regulated put and call options, regulated margin requirements and so much more strangulation that the industry could not breathe.



Along came derivatives and “Big Brother” could not stop the progress. Volume surged a thousand fold. Fixed commissions (the good ole club) was gone. And the Free Market took hold. Commissions dropped to slit throat. Option volume soared and margin is non existent today. Zillions of betting opportunities became available and volume (handle) soared. No free hot dogs necessary.



The same thing is about to happen at the track as soon as “visionaries” take control.



Space is limited here, so please, Wall Street folk, and all, enter with your ideas.



One of mine: Ability to “short” a horse, (book the bet) win, place, show. This could be accomplished with a debit card and margin requirements similar to Wall Street. This alone, in my opinion, would increase handle dramatically and allow big money to enter. Increase handle, reduce take out. It would soon feed on itself as the bettor would have more money to bet.



“Offshore” would be out of business as they now have competition. The free market.

[PaceAdvantage]

Before we allow the widespread "shorting" of horses, we have to clean up the game big time. If you thought race fixing and horse drugging is a problem now, imagine what it would be like if there were ample opportunities to profit from a horse who doesn't run his best.

It's so much easier to ensure a horse runs poorly than it is to ensure a horse runs at his peak.

[highnote]

Before we allow the widespread "shorting" of horses, we have to clean up the game big time.

It works in England. Sure there are some problems. There will always be bad apples. There are problems in this country.

All in all, I'd say most races are fairly run. All the horses are able to get drugs, so that makes them more or less equal on that count.

For the most part, jocks are honest and try hard.

I wouldn't be afraid to short a U.S. horse race without having inside info. In fact, I did it plenty of times when I was allowed to have a Betfair account.

[PaceAdvantage]

I wouldn't be afraid to short a U.S. horse race without having inside info. In fact, I did it plenty of times when I was allowed to have a Betfair account.

Not to mire this thread on this one sub topic, but if the ability to "short" became widely available in the US, you would most likely see markedly increased shenanigans when it comes to horses finishing up the track.

[kenwoodallpromos]

From PA news--
"Total handle May 4-5 at Churchill was down about $7.5 million from last year’s Oaks and Derby days. Evans said field size was a major issue--of the 23 races held, 10 had smaller fields than in 2006.

“There were four races that really killed us, one on Oaks day and three on Derby day,” Evans said. “That cost us about $6 million in handle.”

_________________
IMO racing depends on lifelong bettors- so bettors have to feel a personal connection to the racing atmosphere and with the winners. Personal contact with the connections would help- and so would an indian gaming tradition of posting pictures and names of big winners.

2nd turn- this is where IMO the most exiting racing in done, and where the most risk to the horse is- so why not have bigger, less dangerous 2nd turns and extend the time period of the 2nd turn challenges?

Classy horses and surfaces- IMO a low-class surface will stop a potentially classy horse- just look at the examples of Arlington last meet.
It is sensible to me that the surface (cushion) is of major importance to whether a horse performs to expectations or there is a "chaos" race.
Many track use racing conditions such as weight and date of last win to try to increase competition. I think surface and distance switches and light weights can be used to make racing more interestingly unpredictable.
I think tracks should try running races for older horse at the lightest possible carry weights and see what happens. Maybe the horse will run faster in less pain at a moderate distance, (and produce some faster times without hardening the track so much?).

[highnote]

Not to mire this thread on this one sub topic, but if the ability to "short" became widely available in the US, you would most likely see markedly increased shenanigans when it comes to horses finishing up the track.


You might be right. But then again, the only way to know is to try it.

With a betting exchange, the operators can know exactly which account the money is coming from. That should reduce shenanigans.

As it stands now, it can't be any worse than harness racing -- right? :D

[Seabiscuit@AR]

I was originally a big fan of betting exchanges but after having tried them for awhile I am no longer a fan

One of the problems is people using it to bet against their horse

[highnote]

I'm not sure I'm against that 100%.

When we raced our horses, I knew when they had a shot and when they didn't. But I could tell this from the past performances just as well as from talking to the trainer.

I never bet against my horses, but I did bet on them when I thought they had a good chance of winning.

But honestly, even when I thought they would lose, I didn't know for sure. They're animals and you never know what they might do.

[Tape Reader]

Eco 101 will “clean up the game big time.” Fraud, is a product of poor economic conditions; the need to cheat for survival. It is debated that war is a substitute for a good business climate.



“Dumping” a horse has its consequences; it is a double edged sword. When I was a kid, 40 years ago, a friend of mine was an apprentice jockey at Aqueduct. One race, his instructions were: just a warm up kid, we don’t want to win. My friend told all The Guys that one of the worst feelings in the world was to be the jockey on a horse with a big lead in the middle of the stretch, not wanting to win, and at 50-1.



He was told that he would “shovel s____ until he made up the money we lost on that horse.” Can you imagine if the connections were short? Yes, I know that this is just a particular race but the idea is that betting is a double edged sword, and there is also jail time for flagrancy.



My point is that the huge increased handle that “shorting” would create, would create a bettor (sic) market for all. It is eco 101.