Is Street Sense the next Triple Crown winner?

[Bruddah]

Let me go on on record and say, Street Sense was my second pick to Curlin. Actually, when I narrowed the field, to one of these two, I chose Curlin, because I felt, Street Sense might incur a lot of traffic coming from far back. Therefore, I chose Curlin because he would have fewer horses in front of him. Strange how things work out in handicapping.

Now, I will try and explain why I think Street Sense will win the Triple Crown:

1. The horse is fresh after having raced once (Ky Dby) in 2 months
2. A weak crop of 3yo's. But, he only needs to beat those of his generation.
3. He has won the BC and now Ky Derby. (never done)
4. He has won at 1m 1/16...1m 1/8...1m 1/4 using his running style. Which, if he wins the Preakness (1m 3/16), his style willl be ideal, for the Belmont.

Call it a hunch, but I like his chances better than any in the last 10 years. (JMHO) If I am wrong, the sun will still rise tomorrow. If it doesn't, none of this will matter anyway. :lol:

Let me add, I will be trying to beat him with Curlin in the Preakness. Call me an ODDS JUNKIE. I will burn a few more bucks, just in case. :bang:

[Hank]

Do you think SS is better than Barbaro and smarty jones?

[46zilzal]

Do you think SS is better than Barbaro and smarty jones?
If this one gets by at Baltimore, he has a great shot at Belmont.

[JustRalph]

Do you think SS is better than Barbaro and smarty jones?

I don't think he is better than Smarty, and who knows about Barbaro, but the Smarty Party was a different thing all together.

Smarty was ganged up on in a manner that I haven't seen before. Jerry Bailey and Alex Solis got together and gave up their horses chances to win in what I consider a purposeful manner, just to keep Smarty from the Triple Crown. I lost a little respect for both of them that day. here is one description of it.........they got the job done. But they gave up all chance to win by doing it. Which is a disservice to the owners of their mounts and the horse of course.

"Smarty Jones, breaking from the far outside in post 9, was put into contention immediately by Elliott, who had been flawless aboard him through eight straight wins. He quickly wilted Purge, whom he had beaten twice at Oaklawn Park, who faded after a half-mile of :48 3/5. The next challenge came from Rock Hard Ten, the Preakness runner-up, whose antics forced the starters to blindfold him in order to load him into the gate. He stayed in the mix and was a length off Smarty Jones after a mile in 1:35 2/5. At this point, Smarty Jones looked to have found the Holy Grail, but he wasn't alone for long, as Birdstone swept to victory. "Smarty broke very sharp," Elliott said, "and I got a hold of him, but a couple of horses came up on his inside and just kind of had him on the run. "I thought that maybe, if he could get on the lead by himself, he'll relax, which he might have. But I had a horse on the inside, then one on the outside and a horse on the inside again. So, he never got a chance to relax. I just had to keep letting him out a little bit at a time, and it just took its toll on him."

[Bruddah]

I will add, I think Afleet Alex is the best of any of these. He lost the Ky Derby but Boy! What a horse he was in the Preakness and Belmont. As far as I'm concerned AA ranks number 1, Smarty number 2 and Barbaro? we will never really know. In another month or so, all questions will be answered about Street Sense.

[ghostyapper]

I will add, I think Afleet Alex is the best of any of these. He lost the Ky Derby but Boy! What a horse he was in the Preakness and Belmont. As far as I'm concerned AA ranks number 1, Smarty number 2 and Barbaro? we will never really know. In another month or so, all questions will be answered about Street Sense.

I agree afleet alex was the best and closest to winning the TC. The 20 horse field caused his defeat in the kentucky derby and he was fantastic in the preakness and belmont.

[ghostyapper]

1. The horse is fresh after having raced once (Ky Dby) in 2 months
2. A weak crop of 3yo's. But, he only needs to beat those of his generation.
3. He has won the BC and now Ky Derby. (never done)
4. He has won at 1m 1/16...1m 1/8...1m 1/4 using his running style. Which, if he wins the Preakness (1m 3/16), his style willl be ideal, for the Belmont.


He ran in the bluegrass 3 weeks before the derby so he's had more than 1 race the last 2 months.

Also it appears this horse loves churchill. Every other race in his career he was either not dominant or he lost.

[joeyspicks]

Simple answer

NO

I said in another thread that I thought Curlin could have been a TC winner
and if he stays healthy and runs I still think he will win the next two.

[blind squirrel]

STREET SENSE has one serious flaw..... his running style{S}.....there may be
a horse that gets away with a 47 half that he can't run down.......

[Greyfox]

The 20 horse field caused his defeat in the kentucky derby and he was fantastic in the preakness and belmont.

Uh. Uh. It wasn't the 20 horse field. It was Jeremy Rose's impatience.

[Tom]

I think SS will win the crown....if they run the Preakness and Belmont at Churchill Downs.:rolleyes:

[46zilzal]

Uh. Uh. It wasn't the 20 horse field. It was Jeremy Rose's impatience.
no, it was just racing luck. making a late move depend on many factors outside the control of the rider, and he moved from far back...

[Greyfox]

no, it was just racing luck. making a late move depend on many factors outside the control of the rider, and he moved from far back...

Jeremy took Alex forward too soon. Not luck at all.
He said so himself after the Triple Crown races were done.
Otherwise, you're willing to believe that in the first race of the series,
Giacomo was a better horse. Giacomo was a better horse because all of the Early and Presser types were spent.

[46zilzal]

Jeremy took Alex forward too soon. Not luck at all.
He said so himself after the Triple Crown races were done.
Otherwise, you're willing to believe that in the first race of the series,
Giacomo was a better horse. Giacomo was a better horse because all of the Early and Presser types were spent.
In his great book Winning at the Races, Quirin points out the problems of the closer;
1) they have nothing to do with the pace and are passive observers of it.
2) they have to have "luck" in getting through the traffic
and 3) they rider has to make his "best guess" as to how the pace is up front.

He lumped all of these into racing luck, and that is how I am describing it. The rider has to make his/her best guess....and that is part of racing luck.

[Greyfox]

. The rider has to make his/her best guess....and that is part of racing luck.

If you see it the way you are describing it then it was luck.
I see luck as somewhat out of my control. It can be good, it can be bad.
In Alex's instance, Jeremy was in control. He held the reins. Had he waited 2 seconds longer before starting his chase, he would have won the race. That wasn't luck.That was "impatience." Lack of experience, misjudgement or what have you. Giacomo picked up the spoils.

If I accepted your definition of luck then there would be an awful lot of races where I'd just have to throw my hands in the air and say that's luck.
Certainly if I were a trainer, I wouldn't be buying that definition.
I'd be looking for a different rider if your type of "luck" continued.

[46zilzal]

How can one CONTROL things that are a best guess???? Judgement calls, not control.

Rider has no idea how many others have more juice in the tank late, rider has no idea what the time is, rider has no control of the path ahead, rider has no control on what his horse has left, on and on..and then he must make that "best guess" in about two-three seconds........

You are giving the rider too much credit in his influence on the outcome.

The rider only can push his horse: all the rest is out of his control.

[Greyfox]

You're absolutely right. Jeremy took his runner too close to the pace too soon.
He seemed to learn from that error in the next two legs of the Triple Crown.
Or he "guessed better." If he had guessed better the first time he'd have won the Triple Crown.

[46zilzal]

You're absolutely right. Jeremy took his runner too close to the pace too soon.
He seemed to learn from that error in the next two legs of the Triple Crown.
Or he "guessed better." If he had guessed better the first time he'd have won the Triple Crown.

Exactly. Judgement has a way of improving with practice.

Like yourself, I believed AA was head and shoulders above this crowd and with better luck, would have easily been a deserved Triple Crown winner, but then "luck" had a way of negating other deserved colts as well: Swale, Silver Charm, Canonero, Majestic Prince, Native Dancer, Riva, Risen Star,
etc.....

[Ron]

Let me add, I will be trying to beat him with Curlin in the Preakness. Call me an ODDS JUNKIE. I will burn a few more bucks, just in case. :bang:

What kind of odds junkie are you? Curlin could possibly go off as the favorite.

[Greyfox]

Now when it comes to Street Sense, the question is whether or not he'll rejuvenate in two weeks to get the Preakness.
On his best day, I don't think there is another colt in this year's crop that could touch him stamina wise.
But I remember when Fusaichi Pegasus put in one awfully impressive performance to take the Derby a few years back. I said to myself he'll be unbeatable. Next race out he was toast. While Street Sense turned in a very impressive 110 Beyer, I somehow feel that the performance wasn't as awesome as Fusaichi's.
If Street Sense wins the Triple Crown, good for him.
If he wins it, I won't be collecting at the windows.

[46zilzal]

that is especially true with old Hilltop favoring front speed types.....The test of this year's Derby winner, unlike many a year, is the second jewel NOT the third.

[TurfRuler]

In his great book Winning at the Races, Quirin points out the problems of the closer;
1) they have nothing to do with the pace and are passive observers of it.2) they have to have "luck" in getting through the traffic
and 3) their rider has to make his "best guess" as to how the pace is up front

He has to be a "fast" horse, he has to have speed, he has to run faster than his competition......110 at Churchill.....108 at age 2 at Churchill. Find a horse that is faster in the Preakness then he may lose, but he will run them down at Pimlico also.

Here's a toast to Street Sense, by Langston Hughes

When you look at this life you'll find/It ain't nothing but a race/If you can't be the winning horse, Son, at least try to place.

If they box you on the curve, boy, Jockey your way to the rail, And when you get on the inside track--Sail!...Sail!...Sail!/In a race, daddy-o,/ One thing you will find--/There ain't NO way to be out in front/Without showing your tail,/To the horse behind.

[46zilzal]

He has to be a "fast" horse, he has to have speed, he has to run faster than his competition......110 at Churchill.....108 at age 2 at Churchill. Find a horse that is faster in the Preakness then he may lose, but he will run them down at Pimlico also.

The track is a very big partner to the colts there in Baltimore, with energy distribution favoring the earlier ones especially since it is shorter. Street Sense with have to overtake that inherent bias. If he is good enough, he will. Alex did it.

Final time is often overtaken by having the combination of energy distribution that is not balanced by the field.

[Bruddah]

He will be third choice behind SS at even money, HS at 3 to 1 and Curlins odds will be 4 or 5 to 1. I took those odds in the KY Derby and likely will get them again in the Preakness. (JMHO) Anything less than 3 to 1 and I pass. :jump:

[Greyfox]

, but he will run them down at Pimlico also.
.
I hope the public totally agrees with you.
I concede Street Sense has been the best two year old and best 3 year old.
But will he be Street Sense "at his best" on Preakness Day?
To date, I haven't seen who's running against him.
If I had a developing colt, that had a remote chance, I wouldn't be frightened off.
When I see the PP's running lines, of the other entrants, I'll be on firmer ground.
In the meanwhile, I'll be looking to play against Street Sense, unless he isn't the favorite.

[TurfRuler]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/sports/othersports/08racing.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Foes Wary of Street Sense in Preakness

By JOE DRAPE
Published: May 8, 2007
Street Sense seems to have some trainers thinking twice about taking him on in the Preakness Stakes on May 19 in Baltimore. From the Derby field, only the runner-up, Hard Spun, has been committed to the Preakness, the second leg of the Triple Crown.

Street Sense's Sweet Victory
Related
Trial and Error for Winning Trainer (May 7, 2007)
For Tafel, Finally a Derby Wrapped in Roses (May 7, 2007) “I like Carl a lot, but I don’t intend for him to have the Triple Crown,” the trainer of Hard Spun, Larry Jones, said of Street Sense’s trainer, Carl Nafzger.

All spring, Jones has contended that the Preakness offers the best opportunity for Hard Spun to win a Triple Crown race. He suggested that Hard Spun, a front-running colt, would not be run down at Pimlico Race Course as he was in the Derby.

[rastajenk]

"Next race out he (Fu Peg) was toast."

No he wasn't. He was second by three lengths. That ain't toast.

[Greyfox]

"Next race out he (Fu Peg) was toast."

No he wasn't. He was second by three lengths. That ain't toast.

His chance for the Triple Crown was TOAST.

[Cratos]

Let me go on on record and say, Street Sense was my second pick to Curlin. Actually, when I narrowed the field, to one of these two, I chose Curlin, because I felt, Street Sense might incur a lot of traffic coming from far back. Therefore, I chose Curlin because he would have fewer horses in front of him. Strange how things work out in handicapping.

Now, I will try and explain why I think Street Sense will win the Triple Crown:

1. The horse is fresh after having raced once (Ky Dby) in 2 months
2. A weak crop of 3yo's. But, he only needs to beat those of his generation.
3. He has won the BC and now Ky Derby. (never done)
4. He has won at 1m 1/16...1m 1/8...1m 1/4 using his running style. Which, if he wins the Preakness (1m 3/16), his style willl be ideal, for the Belmont.

Call it a hunch, but I like his chances better than any in the last 10 years. (JMHO) If I am wrong, the sun will still rise tomorrow. If it doesn't, none of this will matter anyway. :lol:

Let me add, I will be trying to beat him with Curlin in the Preakness. Call me an ODDS JUNKIE. I will burn a few more bucks, just in case. :bang:

Bruddah,

I felt the same as you about Street Sense in the Derby and went with Curlin. However in the Preakness I will not bet at all because I don’t think any horse coming out of the Derby can beat Street Sense. Hard Spun looks like he is legit for up to a mile and maybe 1-1/8 miles, but beyond that distance he is spent.

The horse that might add intrigue to the Preakness if he is entered could be Asiatic Boy, the UAE winner.

However I see the same top three from the Derby finishing ahead of the rest in the Preakness with Street Sense getting the victory and Curlin moving up to capture second.

If Street Sense takes the Preakness, I believe we will have a Triple Crown winner and that will be good for racing.

[GaryG]

I am not betting either. I wouldn't bet SS and the other two both have huge question marks. None of the new shooters look so tough. I was disappointed that Curlin just couldn't keep up early in the Derby. HS will be a big underlay in Baltimore.

[OTM Al]

Straight exacta, Street Sense over Curlin. Hit it hard. I really like Hard Spun, but I think the pace will get him this time. If you think they are so much better than the rest and the exacta is paying $10, you are getting 4-1 on what you seem to consider a very high probability event. Could be the biggest bargain you'll find in some time. Course if the exata is only paying $5, you (and I) may not want to do that, but I bet it will still be pretty generous given the horses involved

[ghostyapper]

Bruddah,

Hard Spun looks like he is legit for up to a mile and maybe 1-1/8 miles, but beyond that distance he is spent.


I don't see how you could say that. He ran a sub 47 half and galloped out strong after 10 furlongs.

[GaryG]

I don't see how you could say that. He ran a sub 47 half and galloped out strong after 10 furlongs.Yes, he looked strong past the wire. I had some time on my hands today so I watched tapes. Hard Spun will to hard to beat and I don't see him undone by the projected pace. I prefer SS underneath, but the exacta will be wothless. Maybe some value in the tri.

[LemonSoupKid]

You're absolutely right. Jeremy took his runner too close to the pace too soon.
He seemed to learn from that error in the next two legs of the Triple Crown.
Or he "guessed better." If he had guessed better the first time he'd have won the Triple Crown.

Grey, I was as big of an Alex fan as any and had him in all the races. He just didn't have it on Derby Day. It was a very good ride for Rose and there were 20 horses. Of course Rose would say after the last two that he was to blame, not Afleet Alex, for not winning the Derby. He wanted everyone to believe that he was a Triple Crown type horse. Well, Giacomo and Closing Argument were better on Derby Day, and there's nothing I can wish into existence that will change that.

Learning from that, perhaps a lot of these guys don't like the CD surface that much, as has been detailed by a few reporters. Maybe Street Sense won't like Pimlico's as much -- he sure hasn't run well enough outside of CD to make us believe that Curlin can't give him all he can ask for. This should be interesting.

I'm going against him too.

[Greyfox]

Well, Giacomo and Closing Argument were better on Derby Day,.

Yes, they were better that day. I even bet on one of them and made hay.
That was only due to Dame Fortune. Neither were as good as Alex that day, or any day since coming into the race.
Jeremy stayed to close to the early foot.
But why were those two plugs better on Derby Day? They were the best closers. The front speed and pressers and sustained pressers were spent.
What have those two done since? Not much.

[LemonSoupKid]

Let me get this straight:

You say they were better that day. Then you say neither was as good as Alex that day. Hmmmm

Triple Crowns aren't won by "almost" candidates. Point Given was every bit as good as Alex, finished fifth. It just happened that Monarchos ran the race of his life that day. That's why the shiznit is so hard to do. Immortals are immortals because they get Ws, because they are that much superior --- it doesn't matter that they were on the hard end of "luck" or probability or any of this other non sensical stuff.

How are you so positive it was Rose and not the Churchill surface? All I know is results, and they are what enshrine champions. Giacomo sucked. Closing Argument sucked. But that day they were good enough to win, and not allow our favorite horse the ability to call himself Triple Crown Champion.

The only way your point of view makes sense is if Alex had a broken leg or stepped on a pin like Spectacular Bid did. But he didn't.

[Cratos]

I don't see how you could say that. He ran a sub 47 half and galloped out strong after 10 furlongs.

Hard Spun’s fractions in the Derby were 22.96, 23.30, 24.87, 25.91, and 25.50.

This gives him a 51.41 for the last ½ mile. Therefore if he was “strong” at the end of the Derby, his fractions don’t show it.

[Greyfox]

Let me get this straight:

You say they were better that day. Then you say neither was as good as Alex that day. Hmmmm

.

Hmmm. You are chopping off what I said. I said neither were as good
coming into the race. Obviously they were both better at the finish as
the colt ran too close to a fairly stiff pace.
The first 6 furlongs of that race went in 69.59 seconds.
Afleet Alex was maybe 5 or so lengths behind that pace running 9 th.
In the meanwhile, Giacomo was in 18 th place.
Afleet Alex lost the race by 1 length.
The chart is here for you to inspect.

http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing/story/3594472

[Greyfox]

Maybe I should swallow crow here.
I never looked at Closing Arguments running line until now.
He was ahead of Alex at every call.

You are right guys. I was wrong. :eek:

[ghostyapper]

Hard Spun’s fractions in the Derby were 22.96, 23.30, 24.87, 25.91, and 25.50.

This gives him a 51.41 for the last ½ mile. Therefore if he was “strong” at the end of the Derby, his fractions don’t show it.

His last quarter was faster than the previous quarter so distance was not a factor. Keep in mind this is off a 46 and 1 pressured half mile.

Hes from danzig out of a turkoman mare. Am I missing something here?

[JPinMaryland]

he ran a 25 1/2 final quarter running on the front end of things. This is very good for a front runner, some of you ought to look up those derby charts and see for yourself.

[LemonSoupKid]

Maybe I should swallow crow here.
I never looked at Closing Arguments running line until now.
He was ahead of Alex at every call.

You are right guys. I was wrong. :eek:

Respect, Greyfox. It takes a man to admit it.

Cheers. Let's see if Curlin is this year's Alex. I hope so.

LSK

[DrugSalvastore]

Street Sense has landed in the right kind of crop to pull it off...

However, unless he gets two more dream trips, I don't see him doing it. It's never an easy task for a deep closer.

[cj]

The horse that might add intrigue to the Preakness if he is entered could be Asiatic Boy, the UAE winner.



Allowing a 4 year old to run would certainly add intrigue.

[Cratos]

Allowing a 4 year old to run would certainly add intrigue.

Not really sure what you are referring too, but the line below from the chart of the UAE Derby says that Asiatic Boy is a 3yo. You might be talking about him being bred in Argentina which would make him a few months older than his counterparts and under the American horse age rules he would be a 4yo.

Finish Horse Age/Wt Trainer Country Jockey Distances
1 10 ASIATIC BOY (ARG) 3/59kgs M de Kock UAE W Marwing

[john del riccio]

Allowing a 4 year old to run would certainly add intrigue.

Look what Bailey and co. did to prevent Smary from getting the TC....
Remeber what Day did to Winning Colors in the Preakness.....

The riders are not going to make it easy on SS and Borel again, I think for SS to win the TC he is gona need to win with something other than a rail skimming ride. The BELMONT is the one race that savingf tons of ground may not matter due to the fact that many of them will never get the 1 1/2 miles. The Preakness
is going to be interesting to see if Borel can or is able to pull of that ride again.

John

[cj]

Not really sure what you are referring too, but the line below from the chart of the UAE Derby says that Asiatic Boy is a 3yo. You might be talking about him being bred in Argentina which would make him a few months older than his counterparts and under the American horse age rules he would be a 4yo.

Finish Horse Age/Wt Trainer Country Jockey Distances
1 10 ASIATIC BOY (ARG) 3/59kgs M de Kock UAE W Marwing

As you surmise, in North America he is considered a 4 year old.

[DanG]

As you surmise, in North America he is considered a 4 year old.
Too bad, because Asiatic Boy is a SERIOUS animal. :ThmbUp:

[ryesteve]

Hard Spun’s fractions in the Derby were 22.96, 23.30, 24.87, 25.91, and 25.50.

This gives him a 51.41 for the last ½ mile. Therefore if he was “strong” at the end of the Derby, his fractions don’t show it.
When's the last time a Derby pacesetter came home any faster? And other than the winner, who gained any ground in the final quarter mile?

[Cratos]

When's the last time a Derby pacesetter came home any faster? And other than the winner, who gained any ground in the final quarter mile?

I don’t understand the hoopla about Hard Spun’s Derby fractions, but to say there hasn’t been a Derby pacesetter with a faster last quarter in recent years is incorrect. Both Spend A Buck in 1985 and War Emblem in 2002 were faster.

Spend A Buck – 1985

23, 23 4/5, 23 4/5, 25 1/5, and a final quarter in 25 2/5

War Emblem – 2002

23.25, 23.79, 24.71, 24.95, and a final quarter in 24.43

[ghostyapper]

I don’t understand the hoopla about Hard Spun’s Derby fractions, but to say there hasn’t been a Derby pacesetter with a faster last quarter in recent years is incorrect. Both Spend A Buck in 1985 and War Emblem in 2002 were faster.

Spend A Buck – 1985

23, 23 4/5, 23 4/5, 25 1/5, and a final quarter in 25 2/5

War Emblem – 2002

23.25, 23.79, 24.71, 24.95, and a final quarter in 24.43

No one is making a hoopla over his final fractions, we're just showing that its incorrect to say that this horse can't get 9 furlongs and above.

[Cratos]

No one is making a hoopla over his final fractions, we're just showing that its incorrect to say that this horse can't get 9 furlongs and above.

Then I will leave it at Hard Spun's future performances will be the final determination because for now this is just conjecture on both of our parts.

[Greyfox]

John Pricci:

"Street Sense, a throwback racehorse, one that never runs a bad race, that comes from behind no matter what and let the pace be damned. No comparisons quite yet, but when he starts to crank that kick he comes on like Kelso and comes on like Forego and comes on like John Henry. He just doesn’t stop coming."

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/On-The-Line/no-nonsense-in-throwback-derby/

Nice accolades, but maybe a bit premature. No?

[john del riccio]

John Pricci:

"Street Sense, a throwback racehorse, one that never runs a bad race, that comes from behind no matter what and let the pace be damned. No comparisons quite yet, but when he starts to crank that kick he comes on like Kelso and comes on like Forego and comes on like John Henry. He just doesn’t stop coming."

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/blog.php/On-The-Line/no-nonsense-in-throwback-derby/

Nice accolades, but maybe a bit premature. No?

Comparing this horse to FORGEO (my all time favorite) or JOHN HENRY (thats my sons name FYI), is way out of line. He's raced what 7 or 8 times and is still a 3yo ? FOREGO beat HONEST PLESURE carrying a Voltswagon on his back and JOHN HENRY was a millionare during a time when it meant alot more
that it does today. I'd say this is way premature.

John

[Kelso]

[QUOTE=john del riccio]
JOHN HENRY (thats my sons name FYI)
[QUOTE]

Uh, that was Ted Williams' kid's name, too. (You into ice fishing?)

[john del riccio]

[QUOTE=john del riccio]
JOHN HENRY (thats my sons name FYI)
[QUOTE]

Uh, that was Ted Williams' kid's name, too. (You into ice fishing?)

kelso,

i dig fishing, i have friends in brooklyn that love going out on sheephead bay and it is one of the most relaxing (& frustrating) things one can participate it. as for my boys name. henry kuck was my mentor for handicapping, john henry bonham was my idol as a kid which is why i learned to play drums, and john henry was as salty a racehorse as you could find. you add all that up and my son couldn't have any other name...

john

[tonto1944]

Look what Bailey and co. did to prevent Smary from getting the TC....
Remeber what Day did to Winning Colors in the Preakness.....

The riders are not going to make it easy on SS and Borel again, I think for SS to win the TC he is gona need to win with something other than a rail skimming ride. The BELMONT is the one race that savingf tons of ground may not matter due to the fact that many of them will never get the 1 1/2 miles. The Preakness
is going to be interesting to see if Borel can or is able to pull of that ride again.

John

Baily had nothing to do with Smarty Jones losing. It was Stewart Elliots fault. He sat behind the leaders until 1mile pole and then took lead. Where as Prado sat cool and waited. SM had nothing left at the 1/8 pole because the jock made his move to early.

[tonto1944]

As Far as Street Sence being as good as Smarty Jones. LOL Street Sense Ran 1 1/4 Miles in 2:02 :3/5 Smarty Ran in 2:04:3/5 so Street Sense ran 1 second faster. Smarty was a nice horse in a so so crop of horses. None of those horses in that crop went on to great things. He was a horse that was born at the right time. He never did a thing after the Triple Crown. The owners knew he couldn't beat the better horses he would have to face. They wanted the money for breeding. If he would have ran until 4yr old and lost his Stud fees would drop through the floor.

[OTM Al]

If Stewart messed up then Jerry blew it big time. Which do you find more likely? That horse, Eddington, never should have challenged for the lead that early as he had run as a midrange closer. The fact that a horse of that quality was no where to be found at the end of the race just confirms the fact. The Rock Hard Ten run at him is in character for that horse as well as the early lead by Purge, but the Eddington run is unexplainable in any other way than saying A) Jerry made an enormous mistake or B) Jerry sacrificed his horse (and connections $) to try to stop Smarty. He had lobbied heavily to take over riding that horse and had been rebuffed. His bid also nearly failed. Its a competitve sport and egos do come into play. Why is that so hard for people to get.

[john del riccio]

If Stewart messed up then Jerry blew it big time. Which do you find more likely? That horse, Eddington, never should have challenged for the lead that early as he had run as a midrange closer. The fact that a horse of that quality was no where to be found at the end of the race just confirms the fact. The Rock Hard Ten run at him is in character for that horse as well as the early lead by Purge, but the Eddington run is unexplainable in any other way than saying A) Jerry made an enormous mistake or B) Jerry sacrificed his horse (and connections $) to try to stop Smarty. He had lobbied heavily to take over riding that horse and had been rebuffed. His bid also nearly failed. Its a competitve sport and egos do come into play. Why is that so hard for people to get.

BINGO !

Jjohn

[tonto1944]

If Stewart messed up then Jerry blew it big time. Which do you find more likely? That horse, Eddington, never should have challenged for the lead that early as he had run as a midrange closer. The fact that a horse of that quality was no where to be found at the end of the race just confirms the fact. The Rock Hard Ten run at him is in character for that horse as well as the early lead by Purge, but the Eddington run is unexplainable in any other way than saying A) Jerry made an enormous mistake or B) Jerry sacrificed his horse (and connections $) to try to stop Smarty. He had lobbied heavily to take over riding that horse and had been rebuffed. His bid also nearly failed. Its a competitve sport and egos do come into play. Why is that so hard for people to get.

No! No! Stewart Elliot didn't get the job done that's all she wrote case closed. Everyone needs an excuse for losing and when it come to why it all sits on the shoulder of the Jocky. And Elliot was the reason he lost. You can make up a reason for every horse that lost the 3rd leg of the Triple Crown. In the end it's why the jock didn't wait like Prado. Prado had to brains to sit till the time wa right why didn't Stewart Elliot.

[OTM Al]

You are entitled to that opinion, but then as I said, to be consistant you must then also say that Jerry made an even bigger mistake in the race. Smarty was right where he needed to be anyway. He was a frontrunner in every single race. 8-8-0-0. Why would you change at that point? Smarty was a very fast horse who I think would have done very well at the 8-9f races Gr1s are made of these days. No use arguing that though as there is no way to prove or disprove.

[KingChas]

As Far as Street Sence being as good as Smarty Jones. LOL Street Sense Ran 1 1/4 Miles in 2:02 :3/5 Smarty Ran in 2:04:3/5 so Street Sense ran 1 second faster. .

:lol: :lol:
Damm tonto that track surface at Churchill is consistant year to year-huh?!!!

:bang: :bang:

[OTM Al]

2 seconds faster actually, though as my desktop picture reminds me daily, Smarty ran his in the slop after a major downpour. Usually makes a bit of a difference........

[ghostyapper]

As Far as Street Sence being as good as Smarty Jones. LOL Street Sense Ran 1 1/4 Miles in 2:02 :3/5 Smarty Ran in 2:04:3/5 so Street Sense ran 1 second faster. Smarty was a nice horse in a so so crop of horses. None of those horses in that crop went on to great things. He was a horse that was born at the right time. He never did a thing after the Triple Crown. The owners knew he couldn't beat the better horses he would have to face. They wanted the money for breeding. If he would have ran until 4yr old and lost his Stud fees would drop through the floor.

I think smarty was overrated but how can you compare the derby times when smarty jones's was in the slop?

[joeyspicks]

Jerry sacrificed his horse (and connections $) to try to stop Smarty. He had lobbied heavily to take over riding that horse and had been rebuffed. His bid also nearly failed. Its a competitve sport and egos do come into play. Why is that so hard for people to get.
.................................................
WELL SAID

This IS EXACTLY correct! (IMO)

and for the people critical of Stewart........WHAT was he suppose to do...
hold his horse back? (with a strangle-hold)....could ya just hear' em now if he would have done THAT ?
Eddington was NEVER close up, EVER....and Jerry knew that making that move gave his horse NO CHANCE.

[Beethoven]

Hi guys! :)

Street Sense had a workout today at Churchill Downs. He did 5 furlongs in 1:00 minute with per-furlong times of 12.6, 12.4, 12.0, 11.4, and 11.6 (if my arithmetic's right) and then he ran 6 furlongs in 1:02 minutes.

Here's the news item:

http://www.horseswild.com/open/www.ntra.com~|~content_more.aspx|~~type=related|~| relatedid=1835~~Alex+Solis+News+-+NTRA

Edit: the link changed content. Get the story on www.horseswild.com (http://www.horseswild.com) or the ntra site; it's an NTRA story.

[46zilzal]

Hi guys! :)

Street Sense had a workout today at Churchill Downs. He did 5 furlongs in 1:00 minute with per-furlong times of 12.6, 12.4, 12.0, 11.4, and 11.6 (if my arithmetic's right) and then he ran 6 furlongs in 1:02 minutes.

That would have been a world record that Zany Tactics could not have touched!!!

[Beethoven]

Here's the direct link to the NTRA story. It has the fractional times. :)

No calculator handy, and I'm blonde, remember? Heehee

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=25366

And yes, you're right! The story says he did the 6 furlongs in 1:12 3/5, not 1:02 3/5. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Cratos]

No! No! Stewart Elliot didn't get the job done that's all she wrote case closed. Everyone needs an excuse for losing and when it come to why it all sits on the shoulder of the Jocky. And Elliot was the reason he lost. You can make up a reason for every horse that lost the 3rd leg of the Triple Crown. In the end it's why the jock didn't wait like Prado. Prado had to brains to sit till the time wa right why didn't Stewart Elliot.

If there ever was an over rated 3yo horse in recent years, it was Smarty Jones. Smarty was clearly beaten by the better horse in Birdstone in the 2004 Belmont and to prove that his Belmont victory wasn’t a fluke, Birdstone went to Saratoga and captured the Travers.

Therefore of the 4 major post Derby prep 3yo races in 2004 (KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and Travers) Birdstone was every bit as good as Smarty because each horse won 2 of the 4 races convincingly.

[DanG]

If there ever was an over rated 3yo horse in recent years, it was Smarty Jones. Smarty was clearly beaten by the better horse in Birdstone in the 2004 Belmont and to prove that his Belmont victory wasn’t a fluke, Birdstone went to Saratoga and captured the Travers.

Therefore of the 4 major post Derby prep 3yo races in 2004 (KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and Travers) Birdstone was every bit as good as Smarty because each horse won 2 of the 4 races convincingly.
That’s such an endearing part of this game. We both follow racing closely and yet we are 180 degrees apart on this opinion. Birdstone couldn’t carry Smarty Jones ‘jock as it were IMO…

9f match race at Belmont with both in peak 3yo form, given equal odds I would back Smarty with both my lungs and see if I could borrow another. :jump:

[JPinMaryland]

I dont remember Smarty being in the Travers..

[tonto1944]

I dont remember Smarty being in the Travers..

Could it be that he was to never be any good again. Smart move to keep his value high. If he would have run and got beaten ,his value would have went through the Floor.

[rastajenk]

Birdstone was a bum and that year's Travers was pathetic. :faint:

:)

[GaryG]

I am glad that some these didn't win the TC: Smarty, Funny Cide, Real Quiet, Charismatic. IMO they could not be mentioned in the same breath as, Sec, Slew, Affirmed, Big Cy and the others.

[PaceAdvantage]

Smarty would have been a "deserving" TC winner, no doubt. He would have been only the second undefeated TC winner!

And, he ran a hell of a Belmont, regardless....not sure how you can have Smarty on your short list there....

[cj]

If there ever was an over rated 3yo horse in recent years, it was Smarty Jones. Smarty was clearly beaten by the better horse in Birdstone in the 2004 Belmont and to prove that his Belmont victory wasn’t a fluke, Birdstone went to Saratoga and captured the Travers.

Therefore of the 4 major post Derby prep 3yo races in 2004 (KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and Travers) Birdstone was every bit as good as Smarty because each horse won 2 of the 4 races convincingly.

I think you are just trolling, as no sane person could believe that last part. If you really believe your post, I hope you are a bettor, and bet a lot.

For one, Birdstone was pretty much drubbed in the two losses to Smarty Jones. Secondly, the one time Smarty Jones lost, it was barely, and after he had a brutal trip and Birdstone an ideal setup. To say he won convincingly is a joke.

The Travers didn't really matter as SJ didn't run.

[GaryG]

Smarty would have been a "deserving" TC winner, no doubt. He would have been only the second undefeated TC winner!

And, he ran a hell of a Belmont, regardless....not sure how you can have Smarty on your short list there....Because he was the best of a mediocre 3yo crop. Birdstone was very common and none of the others amounted to much. Of course, you could have said that about Slew after the TC. Before those ball burners he ran later on.

[46zilzal]

If there ever was an over rated 3yo horse in recent years, it was Smarty Jones. Smarty was clearly beaten by the better horse in Birdstone in the 2004 Belmont and to prove that his Belmont victory wasn’t a fluke, Birdstone went to Saratoga and captured the Travers.


One loss lifetime, a place no less to a plodder (aka "if the distance is long enough, they simply outlast their rivals"), at a distance so far out of his breeding range it was ridiculous, and you call him over rated.

[46zilzal]

Birdstone was a bum and that year's Travers was pathetic.


Agree, he did the same thing as in the Belmont; Just outlasted the crowd..........A distance specialist when in form.

[ghostyapper]

Agree, he did the same thing as in the Belmont; Just outlasted the crowd..........A distance specialist when in form.

Actually he was much closer to the pace in the travers than the belmont

[ghostyapper]

Agree, he did the same thing as in the Belmont; Just outlasted the crowd..........A distance specialist when in form.

Well depends what you mean on overrated? Calling him a very nice 3yo no he was not overrated. Comparing him to slew and calling him the best horse of 2004? Then yes he's vastly overrated

[ghostyapper]

I think you are just trolling, as no sane person could believe that last part. If you really believe your post, I hope you are a bettor, and bet a lot.

For one, Birdstone was pretty much drubbed in the two losses to Smarty Jones. Secondly, the one time Smarty Jones lost, it was barely, and after he had a brutal trip and Birdstone an ideal setup. To say he won convincingly is a joke.

The Travers didn't really matter as SJ didn't run.

Smary jones only beat birdstone once, in the derby.

[46zilzal]

Well depends what you mean on overrated? Calling him a very nice 3yo no he was not overrated. Comparing him to slew and calling him the best horse of 2004? Then yes he's vastly overrated
relativity yes.....
but 9 8 1 0 at graded stakes levels is impressive no matter in what year one ran.

[ghostyapper]

relativity yes.....
but 9 8 1 0 at graded stakes levels is impressive no matter in what year one ran.

Actually he was 5-4-1-0 in "graded" stakes. Still impressive though

[Tee]

Actually he was 5-4-1-0 in "graded" stakes. Still impressive though

If memory serves Smarty was 4-3-1-0 in graded stakes.

[ghostyapper]

If memory serves Smarty was 4-3-1-0 in graded stakes.

No both the rebel and arkansas derby are graded plus the 3 TC races.

[cj]

No both the rebel and arkansas derby are graded plus the 3 TC races.

I don't think the Rebel was at the time. I seem to remember he needed a good Ark Derby showing to make the field.

[cj]

Smary jones only beat birdstone once, in the derby.

You are right, I forgot he skipped the Preakness.

[Tee]

No both the rebel and arkansas derby are graded plus the 3 TC races.

When Smarty Jones won the Rebel it was a 200K non graded stakes race.

[cj]

When Smarty Jones won the Rebel it was a 200K non graded stakes race.

At least I was right about something. How you hitting them?

[JPinMaryland]

They had this debate on the "other" forum where one guy said Smarty was a certain hall of famer and the other side said "you are mad, there is no way he's a hall of famer."

I did a quick look at some stats and found about 3 horses that were roughly comparable having fairly brief careers...I'll post them in a moment, but in the meantime what do you think? Hall of famer: yes or no?

[JPinMaryland]

I think Majestic Prince had about the most similar career; he had 9 wins out of 10 starts. Although Smarty made a much better run at the TC whereas Maj. Prince was not very competitive in the Belmont.

Tim Tam won ten races, and failed to win the TC when he cracked sesamoids n the Belmont. Winning Colors had 8 wins in 14 starts. Pensive also very similar to Smarty in that he lost the TC in the final strides. He had 7 wins out of 22, but a little different in that did not win another race after the Preakness although he competed.

Of these two are in the Hall of Fame and Tim Tam adn Pensive are not, going from memory here. So what does that tell us?

[playintheponys]

Hello All,



I have been a member of this board for a long time, but have never posted much. I came here today, to peruse other folks opinions on the Preakness. I read this entire thread, am not going to go back and quote specific comments. I am a pace handicapper, I go by the old adage "pace makes the race".

I didn't get into horse racing until the early 1980's, and missed all the Triple Crowns of the 1970's. I have been to many Preaknesses, and whenever there has been a Triple possibility, have also tried my darndest to make it to the Belmont. I wanted to be there for that crowning moment.

The closest one was Real Quiet, getting nosed out by Victory Gallop. When he turned for home with a several length lead, the crowd went bonkers. And along came the challenge, and they hooked up and fought it out. I had a beautiful seat right above the finish line, and you couldn't seperate em at the wire. The place got "real quiet", you could hear a pin drop. The stewards took what seemed forever, before placing the numbers up. So I have seen, first hand, all the ways a Crown can be lost. A Triple winner has to be great and lucky. No doubt some were much better that others.




The KY Derby is always a tough race to handicap, a tough race to win for the connections. The size of the large fields complicates matters greatly. Obviously, for pace handicapping, in a match race, the speed horse will usually win against the closer, unless he doesn't have the stamina. As a pace handicapper, I would much rather try and figure out a race with a short field. Not only are there less pace matchups to consider, the chances of getting bumped or caught in traffic are minimized.



I liked Street Sense in the Derby, he was a standout closer, and the field showed alot of speed. I was very surprised to see that none of the other speed went out there with Hard Spun. I am from Baltimore, and when Mario Pino turned for home with a nice lead, I was rooting him on, even though I didn't bet on him. I felt vindicated when Street Sense rallied past, and was impressed when Pino brought Hard Spun out to make another run towards the wire. No doubt, under other cicumstances, Hard Spun can get the classic distance.

But for this Preakness, like the Derby, I again see a speed duel. No 20 horse field this time. The one race that Hard Spun rated, in the Lanes End, he came from the 10 hole, in a large field, and was much the best, he just cruised on by, winning in hand. Speed tends to stay well at Pimlico for a 1-1/16 mi, so it is thought of as speed favoring. But that extra 1/8 can be very troublesome.

This time, I see Xchanger and Flying First Class definitely going out there. If Hard Spun goes with them, they are all done. As they are to his inside, the best he can do is stalk them. Maybe Mario can pull it off, and time his rally, I wish him the best, but Curlin and Street Sense will be coming like gangbusters. I like Street Sense. Curlin may not have had enough seasoning going into the Derby, and he worries me. If he improves off his last effort, he may very well may be good enough to give Street Sense a real fight to the wire.

"may all of your photo finishes be winning ones"
playintheponys

[ghostyapper]

When Smarty Jones won the Rebel it was a 200K non graded stakes race.

I looked back and you're correct. At the time it was not a graded stakes. So that means up untill the arkansas derby sj had exactly $0 in graded stakes earnings. He has to finish 2nd or better in that race just to make the derby.

[ghostyapper]

They had this debate on the "other" forum where one guy said Smarty was a certain hall of famer and the other side said "you are mad, there is no way he's a hall of famer."

I did a quick look at some stats and found about 3 horses that were roughly comparable having fairly brief careers...I'll post them in a moment, but in the meantime what do you think? Hall of famer: yes or no?

To me smarty has no advantage over afleet alex. Both won 2 legs of the TC and I think alex had more excuses for his derby loss than smarty did for his belmont.

Alex was not undefeated heading into the TC races but he faced must touger competition as a 2yo. I personally think alex was the better horse but for those who want to put smarty jones in a historical perspective must include alex right next to him.

[cj]

I looked back and you're correct. At the time it was not a graded stakes. So that means up untill the arkansas derby sj had exactly $0 in graded stakes earnings. He has to finish 2nd or better in that race just to make the derby.

LOL. That is exactly what I said. I didn't ignore you when you pointed out my error. :D

[Cratos]

I think you are just trolling, as no sane person could believe that last part. If you really believe your post, I hope you are a bettor, and bet a lot.

For one, Birdstone was pretty much drubbed in the two losses to Smarty Jones. Secondly, the one time Smarty Jones lost, it was barely, and after he had a brutal trip and Birdstone an ideal setup. To say he won convincingly is a joke.

The Travers didn't really matter as SJ didn't run.

I find it strange that if I don’t think Smarty Jones was the “second coming” I must be disillusioned. I have been in this game for nearly 40 years and have seen every great horse in that time span run from Buckpasser to today’s horses.

I don’t know if you have “lived” on the NYRA circuit, but Secretariat although HOY at 2yo was knocked after his loss to Angle Light and until he destroyed the Marlboro Cup field there was some horsemen saying wait until he meet “older horses.” Seattle Slew early in his 3yo career was thought to be just a speedster, but his race and gameness in 1978 JCGC left little doubt about his toughness.

You like Smarty Jones, good; but the people who think otherwise are not members of your elite club. These arguments are fruitless because they go back and forth without ever proving anything.

[Cratos]

I think Majestic Prince had about the most similar career; he had 9 wins out of 10 starts. Although Smarty made a much better run at the TC whereas Maj. Prince was not very competitive in the Belmont.

Tim Tam won ten races, and failed to win the TC when he cracked sesamoids n the Belmont. Winning Colors had 8 wins in 14 starts. Pensive also very similar to Smarty in that he lost the TC in the final strides. He had 7 wins out of 22, but a little different in that did not win another race after the Preakness although he competed.

Of these two are in the Hall of Fame and Tim Tam adn Pensive are not, going from memory here. So what does that tell us?

Majestic Prince was injured when ran in the Belmont

[Cratos]

One loss lifetime, a place no less to a plodder (aka "if the distance is long enough, they simply outlast their rivals"), at a distance so far out of his breeding range it was ridiculous, and you call him over rated.

The last time I looked, a horse that won the KY Derby and the Preakness had to win the 1 ½ Belmont to win the TC. Spectacular Bid was severely knocked when he fail to win at 1 ½ miles twice.

[Cratos]

That’s such an endearing part of this game. We both follow racing closely and yet we are 180 degrees apart on this opinion. Birdstone couldn’t carry Smarty Jones ‘jock as it were IMO…

9f match race at Belmont with both in peak 3yo form, given equal odds I would back Smarty with both my lungs and see if I could borrow another. :jump:

In a 9f race I would take Medaglia d’Oro over both of them because in 6 9f races I think he won 5 and lost the other by a neck.

[PaceAdvantage]

I find it strange that if I don’t think Smarty Jones was the “second coming” I must be disillusioned. I have been in this game for nearly 40 years and have seen every great horse in that time span run from Buckpasser to today’s horses.

Here's an honest question. Who ever said Smarty Jones was the "second coming?"

Allow me to answer:

Why PA, nobody ever uttered such words, at least not this year....

[Cratos]

Here's an honest question. Who ever said Smarty Jones was the "second coming?"

Allow me to answer:


“I think you are just trolling, as no sane person could believe that last part”

“I find it strange that if I don’t think Smarty Jones was the “second coming” I must be disillusioned.”

PA, the above two statements were made. One by “CJ” and the other by me in a retort. If the first statement was taken literally, some people might say only an insane person would believe …………………

If the second statement was taken literally, some people might say if Smarty Jones was that good you must have over looked something.

PA, please stop with the specious rhetoric. If you like Smarty Jones and think that he was that good it is okay with me. I happen to be one who thinks otherwise and after all it are those differences between us that make pari-mutuel wagering work.

[rastajenk]

I think it's only the Smarty vs. Birdstone comments that raised folks' eyebrows. Not Smarty vs. Secretariat or Smarty vs. Slew, or Smarty vs. Medaglia d'Oro, for that matter. But, like you said, different strokes and all that.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, please stop with the specious rhetoric.

Ok, only if you please stop inventing things that were not said. Nobody said Smarty was the second coming of anything. What *I* did say (and I can't speak for anyone else) is that he was a deserving Triple Crown winner. If Triple Crown winner equates to Second Coming in your dictionary, then that is where we disagree.

Second Coming (at least in 'modern times') is reserved for a select few horses, like Seattle Slew, Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Ruffian, Holy Bull (I'm gonna catch heat for including him, but I don't care), etc....

[Cratos]

Ok, only if you please stop inventing things that were not said. Nobody said Smarty was the second coming of anything. What *I* did say (and I can't speak for anyone else) is that he was a deserving Triple Crown winner. If Triple Crown winner equates to Second Coming in your dictionary, then that is where we disagree.

Second Coming (at least in 'modern times') is reserved for a select few horses, like Seattle Slew, Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Ruffian, Holy Bull (I'm gonna catch heat for including him, but I don't care), etc....

Either you didn’t read my statement (it is still there to be read) or you don’t have a clear comprehension of the phrase “second coming.” The phrase is most commonly used in biblical reference.

However I made a reference of conjecture to CJ’s reference about sanity. Additionally, in the context which I used it (and it is not reserved for any horse) was colloquially.

But I never referred to anything you wrote which makes your responses to me rather bizarre. Therefore as far as I am concerned, I am totally finished with this discussion because it has taken a “Seinfeld” characterization.

[PaceAdvantage]

Excellent.


Now, to get back on topic:

NO!

[JPinMaryland]

Majestic Prince was injured when ran in the Belmont

I guess I wasnt very clear. My pt. being that Smarty Jones run at the TC was more exciting than Maj. Prince's because SJ's attempt came so close and MP was not anywhere near that. So if that is a criterion for the HoF perhaps SJ has credentials at or better than MPs. I also cited other horses that made similar close attempts on the TC in an attempt to compare SJ to historical horses. I think SJ compares quite well.

I was not trying to suggest that MP was in good form for the Belmont. As is well known, he was not in good form going into the Belmont.

Your quote, grammatically awkward, is ambiguous as to whether he was hurt during the race or before.

[Greyfox]

humble as I am.
excuse me... I thought the thread was
is street sense the next triple crown winner?

[Cratos]

I guess I wasnt very clear. My pt. being that Smarty Jones run at the TC was more exciting than Maj. Prince's because SJ's attempt came so close and MP was not anywhere near that. So if that is a criterion for the HoF perhaps SJ has credentials at or better than MPs. I also cited other horses that made similar close attempts on the TC in an attempt to compare SJ to historical horses. I think SJ compares quite well.

I was not trying to suggest that MP was in good form for the Belmont. As is well known, he was not in good form going into the Belmont.

Your quote, grammatically awkward, is ambiguous as to whether he was hurt during the race or before.

I will attempt to be very succinct and grammatically correct in what I understand about Majestic Prince in the 1969 Belmont. From what I have read and heard, Majestic Prince came out of the 1969 Preakness with a problem with his tendon, but his trainer at the time, Johnny Longden thought that Majestic Prince could still run and as you might remember that in 1969 racing was a major player in the sports arena and a potential TC winner was very big news.

However Majestic Prince’s owner allowed the injured horse to run in the Belmont and he was beaten by his rival, Arts and Letters.

[GaryG]

I will attempt to be very succinct and grammatically correct in what I understand about Majestic Prince in the 1969 Belmont. From what I have read and heard, Majestic Prince came out of the 1969 Preakness with a problem with his tendon, but his trainer at the time, Johnny Longden thought that Majestic Prince could still run and as you might remember that in 1969 racing was a major player in the sports arena and a potential TC winner was very big news.

However Majestic Prince’s owner allowed the injured horse to run in the Belmont and he was beaten by his rival, Arts and Letters.That is not correct. Longden did not want to run him. The owner, Frank McMahon insisted that he run. He was a fine horse. Of course no way to tell if he would have beaten A&L at 12f even if he was sound.

[Cratos]

That is not correct. Longden did not want to run him. The owner, Frank McMahon insisted that he run. He was a fine horse. Of course no way to tell if he would have beaten A&L at 12f even if he was sound.

I don't disagree with you because I have heard it both ways

[46zilzal]

The owner was the force behind Majestic Prince's running not his trainer.

From Wikipedia;To this day, much speculation abounds as to why owner Frank McMahon changed his mind and raced Majestic Prince in the Belmont, but the pressure from the press was intense, including Whitney Tower's article in Sports Illustrated entitled "The Prince Ducks the Big One". The decision never sat well with trainer Johnny Longden and despite his well-documented shouting match with the horse's owner in the days leading up to the race, Majestic Prince was still sent out to compete in the Belmont Stakes. The first horse in history to enter the Belmont Stakes undefeated made a valiant effort but finished second, beaten by Arts and Letters by 5½ lengths. Majestic Prince never raced again.

Jockey Bill Hartack told reporters: "The horse was hurting. We should never have run in [the Belmont]." Trainer Johnny Longden would later comment that Majestic Prince had what was called a check ligament in his right front [leg]. When he bore out in the Preakness, that was a warning. We never should have run him in the Belmont.” Longden said that he tried to bring Majestic Prince back to racing later in 1969 and then again the following year but could not and was sold to a racing syndication for $1.8 million."