Muslim Women....MSNBC/Wash Post article......

[JustRalph]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18544314/

How anybody who has one ounce of respect for women can have nothing but loathing for this religion is beyond me. BTW, I have been in the position of intervening on behalf of a few muslim women who were being abused by their husbands and some of the stuff they go through would curl your toes.........

~snippet~
For some Muslim wives, abuse has no borders
Same pressures persist in U.S.
Islam encourages women to submit to men
By Pamela Constable
http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Art/SITEWIDE/PartnerColorBoxLogos/WaPost_333_GCH.gif

One was a shy, slender young woman who spoke no English when she was brought from Pakistan to enter an arranged marriage with a stranger in Virginia. The other was a self-confident professional, born in Turkey but raised in the United States, who thought she knew what she was doing when she married an educated Muslim man in Maryland.

Yet both women fell under the sway of the same powerful pressures that sometimes reach around the globe to keep Muslim wives in the Washington region imprisoned in abusive marriages, unable to fight the gossip and shame that come with defying their culture and religion, isolated from help that is just a three-digit phone number away.

"My husband beat. He show knife. I am scared for him, for all family," said Shamim, 21, the Pakistani bride, who was rescued by police. She is being sheltered and tutored in English at a private home. "They say no money, no call mother at home. I cook for all, I not eat. I not know 911 what is. I think I go crazy."

~read more at the link~

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't you know? It's only a problem when rich white men (especially rich, white REPUBLICAN white men) abuse their wives.

[betchatoo]

Don't you know? It's only a problem when rich white men (especially rich, white REPUBLICAN white men) abuse their wives.
No, it's crap no matter who mistreats another human being. Lack of equality between sexes is one of the several reasons I am no longer a practicing Catholic.

[46zilzal]

No, it's crap no matter who mistreats another human being. Lack of equality between sexes is one of the several reasons I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
It is an archaic rule of thumb undermining many of the world's religions. How can anyone dismiss half their population?

I always wonder, given the randomness of it, how many female equivalents of Einstein just happen to have XX chromosomes and never got to be heard. I have a deep repspect for women as I had great examples in my mother, grandmother and both my late wife and my current one. There is an intelligence in women without a male equivalent.

Women bring a calmness to societies, a non-testosterone logic and gentleness to the fore. Their influence should be more prevalent not less.

It still persists. Recently we (my wife and I) changed phone plans so that we could call one another on our cell phones for free. She had a contract with the same company for years before we met. Once we started the new plan, she had to make a change in one part of it. The phone company would not even let her make a request for the change since she was ONLY the wife.....Man was she burned...We changed providers after that stupidity.

[Tom]

IF woman are the equal of man, why have they failed to rise to the top as man has? That might suggest they are not as equal as you assume. Man didn ot need woman's approval to get where he is today....do women needs mna's help?


Strictly discussion - don't send me PMs and email and ask PA to ban me!;)

[TurfRuler]

IF woman are the equal of man, why have they failed to rise to the top as man has? That might suggest they are not as equal as you assume. Man didn ot need woman's approval to get where he is today....do women needs mna's help?

Only when it comes to spelling simple words correctly.

[the_fat_man]

While there may be such incidents, I certainly haven't seen any, and there are MUCHO ARABS in my area. The ones next door specialize in INDOOR barbecuing. Nothing like respecting your neighbors.:jump:

Here's an observation you can bank on, however:

The ARAB HUSBAND is sitting in his 40k plus SUV

while the wife is at the grocery store shopping and paying with a FOOD STAMP card.

Nothing like subverting the system.

Replacing 'ARAB' with 'Russian' or 'Asian' works as well.

[Tom]

Only when it comes to spelling simple words correctly.

I got two more I can spell really well!

[robert99]

Yet another thread where someone or something is picked on to try to justify someone's prejudices. Sadly, ill treatment of women is worldwide and has nothing to do with religion - just the existance of certain cowardly males who can only take things out on physically weaker people.

http://www.submission.org/women/beating.html

Summarises the general position and argues that following the Quran has actually protected women from the 6th Century. Love, honour and obey is/ was common in Christian wedding vows.

In USA, one women is beaten every 15 seconds. Physical abuse occurs in 25-35% of USA homes and 4000 women a year die from it (FBI). So lets all blame the Muslims.

[GaryG]

I got two more I can spell really well!:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

Lack of equality between sexes is one of the several reasons I am no longer a practicing Catholic (emphasis added).

Your statement is absurd.

[delayjf]

In USA, one women is beaten every 15 seconds. Physical abuse occurs in 25-35% of USA homes and 4000 women a year die from it (FBI). So lets all blame the Muslims.

At least women in the US are protected by law. Not so in places like China or Iran. It's one thing when its an act of an individual quite another when it's condoned by the State.

[betovernetcapper]

Every time I think of Muslim women, I'm reminded of this article

http://www.slate.com/id/2128906/?GT1=7407

[betchatoo]

Your statement is absurd.
I'll discuss your statement with the next female Catholic priest I meet

[Tom]

I'd keep away from Catholic priests if I were you. :eek:

[PaceAdvantage]

Summarises the general position and argues that following the Quran has actually protected women from the 6th Century. Love, honour and obey is/ was common in Christian wedding vows.

In USA, one women is beaten every 15 seconds. Physical abuse occurs in 25-35% of USA homes and 4000 women a year die from it (FBI). So lets all blame the Muslims.

Why is it that these days there can be NO discussion of individual races or religions without the debate degrading into some sort of racism/sexism/bigotry accusation festival?

Why? Intelligent human beings should be able to discuss ANYTHING (within reason), including the CONTENTS of the ARTICLE posted in the ORIGINAL THREAD here.

Does every thread have to go off in 1,000,000 directions?

Why do people have such a hard time addressing the original topic?

[PaceAdvantage]

Summarises the general position and argues that following the Quran has actually protected women from the 6th Century.

Are you claiming that this is reality or merely theoretical?

[JustRalph]

Yet another thread where someone or something is picked on to try to justify someone's prejudices. Sadly, ill treatment of women is worldwide and has nothing to do with religion - just the existance of certain cowardly males who can only take things out on physically weaker people.


How in the hell can you say this? It is a hallmark of the religion. How can you even say that it has nothing to do with Religion?

[Tom]

In USA, one women is beaten every 15 seconds.

That poor woman. How is she?

[betchatoo]

How in the hell can you say this? It is a hallmark of the religion. How can you even say that it has nothing to do with Religion?
I think he's trying to say that men do this anyway. They just write it into their religion to make it seem like it's morally okay.

[socantra]

Why is it that these days there can be NO discussion of individual races or religions without the debate degrading into some sort of racism/sexism/bigotry accusation festival?

Why? Intelligent human beings should be able to discuss ANYTHING (within reason), including the CONTENTS of the ARTICLE posted in the ORIGINAL THREAD here.

Does every thread have to go off in 1,000,000 directions?

Why do people have such a hard time addressing the original topic?


"Don't you know? It's only a problem when rich white men (especially rich, white REPUBLICAN white men) abuse their wives.
Last edited by PaceAdvantage : Yesterday at 02:38 AM."

You mean we're only supposed to bash Muslims, Democrats and non-whites in this thread?

[Tom]

Yes.
This is our affirmative action thread.

[Greyfox]

Thanks Just Ralph for posting the Washington Post article.
It took a tremendous amount of courage for Pamela Constable to write the article that started this thread. It took significant courage for The Washington Post to publish it.
The truth is that major news media organizations have been living in fear of publishing facts, information and truth about Muslims, Mohammed, and their religious practices.
As a result, the Western Media, including Europe and North America has tippy toed around blatant wrongs towards women and have chosen to look at what has gone on with a blind eye so to speak.
Essentially, our news has been "sanitized."

The main problem has been fear of reprisals from extremist Islamic wing nuts.
You see reporting of the truth, is taken by them as being A War on Islam.
Newspaper editors and owners have implied that they don't want to expose their staff and themselves to retaliation just because one reporter brings something in.

This problem isn't new. It's been around a number of years.
Can you imagine that if the media is afraid of these "True Believers"
how much fear can an abused wife feel living with one of them?

Several posters on this thread have also pointed oppression and violence towards women also occurs in other ethnic groups. True. And when it does that is disgusting. But the bottom line is, women are second class citizens and very much oppressed in the Islamic culture. And we'd hear a lot more about it if any of those women aside from Ayan Ali Hirsi start speaking out.



Does the media acknowledge that this "veiled" reporting is a problem? Well they know about it. Check out:
"When Fear Cows The Media" (2006)
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/02/19/when_fear_cows_the_media/

But maybe the veil of media silence is starting to break,
just yesterday CNN has had the guts to report that a 25 year old woman,
is on DEATH ROW in Baghdad. She claims her husband killed 3 relatives and fled. She was tried in 1 day and sentenced.
Check her story out at
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/08/iraq.deathpenalty/index.html

So thanks for the post Just Ralph and kudos to Pamela Constable and the Post for having the courage to publish it.

[keilan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18544314/

How anybody who has one ounce of respect for women can have nothing but loathing for this religion is beyond me. BTW, I have been in the position of intervening on behalf of a few muslim women who were being abused by their husbands and some of the stuff they go through would curl your toes.........

~snippet~
For some Muslim wives, abuse has no borders
Same pressures persist in U.S.
Islam encourages women to submit to men
By Pamela Constable
http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Art/SITEWIDE/PartnerColorBoxLogos/WaPost_333_GCH.gif

One was a shy, slender young woman who spoke no English when she was brought from Pakistan to enter an arranged marriage with a stranger in Virginia. The other was a self-confident professional, born in Turkey but raised in the United States, who thought she knew what she was doing when she married an educated Muslim man in Maryland.

Yet both women fell under the sway of the same powerful pressures that sometimes reach around the globe to keep Muslim wives in the Washington region imprisoned in abusive marriages, unable to fight the gossip and shame that come with defying their culture and religion, isolated from help that is just a three-digit phone number away.

"My husband beat. He show knife. I am scared for him, for all family," said Shamim, 21, the Pakistani bride, who was rescued by police. She is being sheltered and tutored in English at a private home. "They say no money, no call mother at home. I cook for all, I not eat. I not know 911 what is. I think I go crazy."

~read more at the link~



Ralph – I have witnessed all that you say and probably much more. The Muslim women are treated far differently than anything most of us will ever understand. The family – father, uncles and brothers have a far reaching dominance over the females plus the elder females keep the younger ones in line.

Virginity, faithfulness and obedience are ingrained in them from an early age. Everything they do is dictated to them by the male, marriage isn’t necessarily about them but how the potential husband is thought of by the family. Their own virginity isn’t considered theirs, it belongs to the family. To lose it before marriage brings shame, disgrace and occasionally death.

I recently received a call from the most beautiful women I know who informed that she was considering marry a Canadian man who she doesn’t love so that when her sister and husband visit this summer they will think well of her situation. These women are never free even with their thoughts.

This woman comes from the most liberal Muslim country that I know of and still after 10 years on her own in Canada while in my company will ask permission to answer her phone when it rings. The contradictions in their conduct are amazing to me. Call it conditioning, brainwashing I don’t know what it is but the culture – religion attempts to keep everything in check.

Another Muslim woman called me last month and her situation isn’t good, she is half the age of her husband who has taken her as his 4th bride, divorced the other three. Anyways this lady has declared bankruptcy recently and spent 7 weeks in a women’s shelter last year. Once they leave their environment the women lose the family support and there isn’t ways to keep the husbands in check.

For sure I wouldn’t want my daughter to marry into such a family but certainly while in my own country there is room to co-exist. It’s not like us “white folk” have everything figured out.

[Tom]

I still remember that school fire where all those poor girls burned alive because the "religion of love" would not let them come out without thier veils.
If their god requries that, time to get a new god.
I do not think civilized nations should legitimize this crap by having relations with such backward countries (throw China in there).

[Greyfox]

I still remember that school fire where all those poor girls burned alive because the "religion of love" would not let them come out without thier veils.
If their god requries that, time to get a new god.
I do not think civilized nations should legitimize this crap by having relations with such backward countries (throw China in there).

You've got a good memory Tom.
The final party line said they died due to stampeding, and weren't burned.
Yeah. Sure.
The BBC story is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm

[PaceAdvantage]

You mean we're only supposed to bash Muslims, Democrats and non-whites in this thread?

I don't understand your point.

[robert99]

How in the hell can you say this? It is a hallmark of the religion. How can you even say that it has nothing to do with Religion?

It is very easy to confuse religion with culture.
You have taken the bait by quoting an apparently balanced newspaper article that panders to the prejudices of its saintly readers ... "and another thing about Muslims ..."
If there is any religion that teaches bad treatment of women it is not the Muslim one. For cultures where some, but by no means all, women are oppressed then you have India, China, Middle East, Iran, Ethiopia and Afghanistan right in the forefront. India and China not being Muslim countries would seem to indicate that it is a wider issue than the article reported.

In the West it was not too long ago that women could not vote, could not be ordained in the Church, could not practice birth control, could not have abortions, could no longer work if they were married in some professions etc and were shunned from the family if they had a child out of wedlock. All instigated by some "Christian" male in a position of authority. Some other countries do not accept the major change in modern Western ways and culture and until that is understood it won't be understood how the fundamentalists find it so easy in persuading followers to consider the West as the Devil incarnate.

[Greyfox]

It is very easy to confuse religion with culture.
......Some other countries do not accept the major change in modern Western ways and culture and until that is understood it won't be understood how the fundamentalists find it so easy in persuading followers to consider the West as the Devil incarnate.

Excellent points robert99.
However, Christopher Hitchens, an atheist with a new book out, has written a number of articles knocking all religions and has concluded:
1. the religions are written for the culture, (also for the convenience of the prophet). ( eg. multiple wives.)
2. "You notice how liberals keep saying, “If only Islam would have a Reformation”—it can’t have one. It says it can’t."

In contrast to Hitchens, I believe in God. I also believe that Hitchen's points are valid.
His website is: http://www.hitchensweb.com/

[robert99]

Excellent points robert99.
However, Christopher Hitchens, an atheist with a new book out, has written a number of articles knocking all religions and has concluded:
1. the religions are written for the culture, (also for the convenience of the prophet). ( eg. multiple wives.)
2. "You notice how liberals keep saying, “If only Islam would have a Reformation”—it can’t have one. It says it can’t."

In contrast to Hitchens, I believe in God. I also believe that Hitchen's points are valid.
His website is: http://www.hitchensweb.com/

Ah, Hitchens and Dawkins the new Ayatollahs preaching the fire and brimstone of the new aetheism from their elitist pulpits to the great unwashed. They both believe that religion is stupid and only clever people like themselves can see that. They cannot disassociate the spirituality side from the man made parts, so come up with conclusions that are as irrelevant as they are misguided. That they lack the intelligence, humility and imagination to understand anything of lasting depth in humanity seems to allude them.

I would agree that writers of the holy books can only write from their own perspective. Later "leaders" of religions then "reinterpret" things and edit out to suit. The South African State church even found support for appartheid in the scriptures. Muslims etc do not eat pork , for example. This is not due to their being something spiritually incorrect about pigs - just that if you did at the time you risked being eaten from the inside by tapeworms. Punishments for social misdeeds remain those of the 6th century culture ie stoning and amputations. The "leaders" then misuse these cultural factors to identify, cement and bully the group - divide and rule. The spirituality bit then goes hang.

Which gets back to the point that the majority of Muslims I have known are peaceful, kind and devoted to the spiritual side of living. The minority of islamic fundamentalists, however, are greatly misled by evil bigots who have no place in any "religion". So we should not write off 99.9% of Muslims because of these lost souls.

[Tom]

How many is 0.1% of muslems?
The ones who want to kill us all.
And why can't the 99.9% stop the minority?

I suspect it is tad higher percentage that want to kill us, a big percent who don't care, and most who will do nothing no matter what.

[Greyfox]

What you say robert99 has a lot of truth. Most religions give lip service to love and equality. Indeed, in the Islamic religion(s) God does not have a gender.
Treatment of women in Islamic cultures differs depending
1. place and 2. education
Educated women in western cultures see the veil as liberating, entitling them to privacy. It is something many choose to wear. In Afghanistan, that is not a choice.
Islamic women in western cultures aren't subjected to genital mutilation.
Islamic women in some eastern cultures are.
The intertwining of culture and religion is virtually impossible to separate.
The bottom line though is that many women within the Islamic religions and cultures are oppressed. They need not be. Their own scriptures give some license to practice equality.
A number of sites supporting your position are at:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm#Rights

It's just too bad more Islamic women don't read them or are afraid to implement them.

[JustRalph]

this video says a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

the fact that this is broadcast as a childrens show is amazing in some ways, and terrifying in others........

[robert99]

How many is 0.1% of muslems?
The ones who want to kill us all.
And why can't the 99.9% stop the minority?

I suspect it is tad higher percentage that want to kill us, a big percent who don't care, and most who will do nothing no matter what.

Tom,

It is estimated that there are 1.3 billion practicing Moslems (2.1 billion Christians) so taking my figure (too) literally that means there could be 1.3 million that are persuaded that the West is their Satanic enemy. If you look at the active ones who will actually do the killings it is estimated/ guessed as a "few thousands".
So far in the Al Qaeda type attacks in/on USA, Spain, UK , Bali under 50 have been involved directly, possibly backed up by 250. Possibly there are 300 dormant cells of 4 in the West - so that totals about 1500. Multiply by 10 as no one knows any figures for sure and that is still only 15,000. They can wreak havoc and escape detection with tiny numbers compared with what conventional armies can achieve. For example, about 400 active "Catholic and Protestant" terrorists from the political divide in Northern Ireland kept a third of the British Army penned down for over two decades and that still did not stop over 3600 civilians being brutally murdered. In the end the solution that worked was to actually talk to the terrorists, defuse the vengeance killings, and make reconciliations to at least understand their viewpoint even if those views were totally misguided. Shock and Awe does not work against this threat - they have absolutely no fear of dieing for the cause.

Why did the USA Christian majority not stop the lynchings and burnings in the South or the burning cross carriers of the KKK? It was only negros suffering after all, so who cared? Normal peace loving people are often in denial about what is going on right in their midst. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia are just some of the Muslim countries actively fighting against the Al Qaeda style terrorists. Mosque leaders no longer allow hotheads to preach and they now provide information on any such activities directly to the police. Muslim leaders regularly appear in the media and totally condemn the violence and the evil carried out under the banner of their religion - they do care very deeply. As far as the active cells are concerned, not even their families let alone the Moslem community seem to know they are members and they get absolutely no support, just total condemnation as shaming their community when caught.

[boxcar]

"Don't you know? It's only a problem when rich white men (especially rich, white REPUBLICAN white men) abuse their wives.
Last edited by PaceAdvantage : Yesterday at 02:38 AM."

You mean we're only supposed to bash Muslims, Democrats and non-whites in this thread?

Well, you do want to be fair and balanced for a change, don't you?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Which gets back to the point that the majority of Muslims I have known are peaceful, kind and devoted to the spiritual side of living. The minority of islamic fundamentalists, however, are greatly misled by evil bigots who have no place in any "religion". So we should not write off 99.9% of Muslims because of these lost souls.

Wow. So many, "peaceful, kind and devoted" Muslims. One is very hard-pressed, however, to hear the outrage, indignation and condemnation of this "99.9%" against this very tiny, insignficant minority. I guess in the majority's quest for spirituality they lost their voice...not to mention their moral courage along the way, eh?

Boxcar

[Tom]

"Why did the USA Christian majority not stop the lynchings and burnings in the South or the burning cross carriers of the KKK? It was only negros suffering after all, so who cared?"

We did fix it. Many cared, and many worked hard to get us where we are today. In less than 200 years.
Muslems started causing shit when, 700? 600?

[JustRalph]

These people just aren't the same as us...............I say it again.........

Woman raped before "honor killing": court

http://www.vg.no/bilder/edrum/1146344501943_421.jpg


Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:54AM EDT
LONDON (Reuters) - A Kurdish woman was brutally raped, stamped on and strangled by members of her family and their friends in an "honor killing" carried out at her London home because she had fallen in love with the wrong man.

Banaz Mahmod, 20, was subjected to the 2-1/2 hour ordeal before she was garroted with a bootlace. Her body was stuffed into a suitcase and taken about 100 miles to Birmingham where it was buried in the back garden of a house.

Her badly decomposed body was found in April 2006, three months after the killing.

Last month a jury found her father Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, guilty of murder after a three-month trial. Their associate Mohamad Hama, 30, had earlier admitted killing her.

On Thursday at a pre-sentence hearing for Hama, the Old Bailey heard details about Banaz's last moments.

Prosecutors said the three convicted men, along with two other suspects who are still at large, had carried out the killing fearing that the authorities were closing in on them.

They believed Banaz had brought shame on the family by leaving her husband, an Iraqi Kurd she had been forced to marry at 17, and falling in love with Rahmat Suleimani, an Iranian Kurd.

Her former unnamed partner had raped her as well as repeatedly beating her, the court heard.

~much more horror at the link~

[PaceAdvantage]

Ralph, again, I hate to be the "eye-opener" here, but you just don't get it again...that's what these people "grew up" on, kind of like Michael Vick.

You know, you can't find fault with these very nice people just because they don't act the same as you and I.

I have been told by many well educated people that it is our job to understand and relate to these folks so that we can embrace their fine time honored traditions, like honor killings. We're supposed to LOVE everyone, despite their minor transgressions from time to time. Shame on you for being so closed minded. :faint:

[JustRalph]

somehow I lost the link........here is one

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2131248,00.html



PA, it never stops.............. very sad.............I am just a hick for not understanding..........

[robert99]

Ralph, again, I hate to be the "eye-opener" here, but you just don't get it again...that's what these people "grew up" on, kind of like Michael Vick.

You know, you can't find fault with these very nice people just because they don't act the same as you and I.

I have been told by many well educated people that it is our job to understand and relate to these folks so that we can embrace their fine time honored traditions, like honor killings. We're supposed to LOVE everyone, despite their minor transgressions from time to time. Shame on you for being so closed minded. :faint:

So why were the three men arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to life imprisonment then?

Is it any more noble when a westerner rapes someone or tortures and kills someone?

[boxcar]

Yet another thread where someone or something is picked on to try to justify someone's prejudices. Sadly, ill treatment of women is worldwide and has nothing to do with religion - just the existance of certain cowardly males who can only take things out on physically weaker people.

Just what this forum needs -- another clueless wonder. I suppose Robert, when the Saudi religious police a few years ago wouldn't allow all those young school girls to flee their burning school because they were unveiled, that had nothing to do with their religious beliefs?

Boxcar

[Steve 'StatMan']

So why were the three men arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to life imprisonment then?

Is it any more noble when a westerner rapes someone or tortures and kills someone?

You missed PA's blatant sarcasm. This is mocking some of the stuff that the P.C. Left advocate, and a shot at a couple folks on this board as well. The so-called Religion Of Peace is often practiced with extremely brutality by a growing some in the 'own lands', and in more and more cases, are taking their brutaty to the new lands where they now live.

[Bill Olmsted]

[QUOTE=Tom]IF woman are the equal of man, why have they failed to rise to the top as man has? That might suggest they are not as equal as you assume. Man didn ot need woman's approval to get where he is today....do women needs mna's help?

Tom, I am truly ashamed to have ever had anyting to do with you. May you rot in hell.

[Light]

Do the words Abu Ghraib or Haditha mean anything to you?How about the number of rapes that occur in this country? Women all over the world are treated 2nd class. But you love to focus on Muslims.[drool] You guys love to simmer your Muslim hatred into a pot of vermin verbal soup. Is it dinner time yet?Mmmm.Yummy.

[keilan]

If a woman brings shame to the family--through allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, by refusing an arranged marriage, or attempting to obtain a divorce--her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to murder her.


http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp

[xtb]

It's more like a mental disease than a religion or culture.

[Tom]

[QUOTE=Tom]IF woman are the equal of man, why have they failed to rise to the top as man has? That might suggest they are not as equal as you assume. Man didn ot need woman's approval to get where he is today....do women needs mna's help?

Tom, I am truly ashamed to have ever had anyting to do with you. May you rot in hell.


You can't answer it, can you?
And btw....RIF. Read the whole post, not just part of it.

[Tom]

Do the words Abu Ghraib or Haditha mean anything to you?How about the number of rapes that occur in this country? Women all over the world are treated 2nd class. But you love to focus on Muslims.[drool] You guys love to simmer your Muslim hatred into a pot of vermin verbal soup. Is it dinner time yet?Mmmm.Yummy.

Clueless.

[JustRalph]

Do the words Abu Ghraib or Haditha mean anything to you?How about the number of rapes that occur in this country? Women all over the world are treated 2nd class. But you love to focus on Muslims.[drool] You guys love to simmer your Muslim hatred into a pot of vermin verbal soup. Is it dinner time yet?Mmmm.Yummy.


You abslolutely think that is a response to this thread? Amazing.....now I know why you are so damn clueless.........you are just like them........you don't' get the reason why Americans can't understand this, do you?

She was raped and killed by her Father, His brother and her old Boyfriend/Husband!!! Because she had chosen another man!!!! You idiot!!!
In the U.S. that means you get a divorce. Women have the right to choose who they marry, who they take their pants off for!!! and so do the men!! But not in your world.

I cannot imagine an entire culture where women are afraid of the men who are supposed to be their partners.............it must make for a miserable life. The more I think about it the more miserable the men must be. They will never experience what it feels like to lay down next to a person who cares for them. Not without fear of them.............the men in muslim world are the ones who probably suffer most.................they are obviously the spiritual and emotional losers in this archaic world in which they force themselves to live in. But the women are the emotional and physical victims of this tyranny. Death and torture on a regular basis..........Amazing...............and they kill them for honor? There is no honor in a muslim home........not for the women...............

[Tom]

Ralph, what you desribe above is what Light calls Tuesdays.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Do the words Abu Ghraib or Haditha mean anything to you?How about the number of rapes that occur in this country? Women all over the world are treated 2nd class. But you love to focus on Muslims.[drool] You guys love to simmer your Muslim hatred into a pot of vermin verbal soup. Is it dinner time yet?Mmmm.Yummy.

The terrible things that a few GI's did at Haditha was horrible, and they deserved to be punished. This is not acceptable behavior in our culture, and is not excusable in war-time.

There were a few terrible acts by U.S. guards at Abu Ghraib, and some mind games, and many people were punished. They were clearly not doing right when they did those things, and it wasn't their 'religion' that told them to do those things, although some forms of miltary torture (paling to the Saddam era) might be necessary evil in wartime. That's for another debate we've had several times on the forum.

Abu Ghraib in the Saddam Era was a horrible place of torture and rape. While some of that abuse by Sadam and his guards and henchmen may have been religious related, and some was due to civil crimes, much of it was done in the name of revenge politics. Very, Very Evil, as well as Saddam and his henchmen's revenge rapes, and at least one of his son's hobbies as a rapist with use of goverment forces. Inexcuable behavior!

An issue have been the 'supposedly good muslims' in Muslim lands, where strict Shia and other laws are being used to make rape, torture and execution a sanctioned religious solution to a problem. I have huge reservations about this, but that isn't even a part of this discussion.

Now, in yet another case of 'supposedly good muslims' in other cultures, where laws prohibit such attrocities, these men have commited these horrible acts "in the name of Islam, and in the name of Family Honor'. This culture in GB, the U.S. and most of the Western and frankly Civilized World rejects such actions. In my mind, and most of our Western minds, they bring great shame and dishonor to peaceloving muslims, to Islam, to God, and to their disgusting family.

And yet YOU, LIGHT, continue to FAIL to see the reprehensibleness of these actions, FAIL to understand that your fellows posters anger is toward their evil acts and especially their reasonsing to justify those evil acts.

Please, SHOW us where you condemn such actions on behalf of muslims, particularly large sects of countries, militias, etc.

Heck, we ALL share the disgust when done by non-muslims as well. But all you do is continue to show your comtempt for just Americans and non-muslims by never admitting the problems within the community you identify - you just bring bringing up old examples of things that many of us have already bothered to take the time and write of our condemnation of it. Plus, you angrilly scoff at my prior posts on these types of issues as if your feelings should be obvious - because frankly you phony 'peace man', you actions and posts you have made no such no such thing that I can ever recall.

No, people on this board don't hate all muslims. They do hate evil doers of all kinds, especially ones that do evil for religion, the main one in the 1990's-2000's are muslims, and their advoactes as you have been for as long as I've read your off-topic posts.

[46zilzal]

Cultures around the world have, and will continue to do things we would find unacceptable. okay.... so what? nasty, wrong etc.

Want to be the world's policeman and bandy that concealed gun permit around? Okay.

Won't change a thing but to inflame your xenophobia.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Cultures around the world have, and will continue to do things we would find unacceptable. okay.... so what? nasty, wrong etc.

Want to be the world's policeman and bandy that concealed gun permit around? Okay.

Won't change a thing but to inflame your homophobia.

46zilzal, Do you want them to bring the revenge torture rape to GB, U.S. & Canada? Yes or No? By your 'So What' response, why should we assume a No from you, though I do hope it's likely.

[46zilzal]

You won't change years of culture no matter where it winds up.

[chickenhead]

You won't change years of culture no matter where it winds up.

Sure you will, over time. That is how things change, by people being critical. You think slavery went away in the US because people threw up their hands and said "Oh well, nobody's perfect!" Do you think that is how women got the right to vote? Hell no, they got the right to vote here from a whole lot of people saying "Shame on you!" and shining a big spotlight on it.

At the very least, at the very least, one must be verbally critical. It does actually do some good, much more good than unabashed acceptance. Much more good than "Oh well, nobody is perfect!"

[Steve 'StatMan']

So, again 46zilzal, the question of revenge rapes and torture in GB, US & Canada: yes, no, or don't care?

[46zilzal]

you forgot female circumcision.

You know it is a nasty world. It has been that way a long time now and probably won't change anytime real soon.

[Steve 'StatMan']

you forgot female circumcision.

You know it is a nasty world. It has been that way a long time now.

Yes, it is a nasty world. Especially more nasty 'over there' than it is 'over here' for now.

Gee, 'Rutabaga G. W. Bush could have answered this quesion on the first try, worse case 2nd try after fumbling his spoken words.'

So, for the THIRD TIME 46zilzal, revenge tortures, rapes & murders, in GB, U.S. and Canada. Are you for it, against it, or just don't care?

[Tom]

(Jeopardy Theme plays softly in the background)

[Light]

She was raped and killed by her Father, His brother and her old Boyfriend/Husband!!! Because she had chosen another man!!!! You idiot!!!
In the U.S. that means you get a divorce.

You mean you've never heard of women getting shot or beat up when caught sleeping with another man? What is your point? That this only happens in Muslim countries? Alot of American men also consider it a right or honor to kill in that situation as well. They just dont tie it to religion. Guess what? The Muslim religion doesnt allow it either.

You take the words of a murderer for the facts on a religion.I cant even find the words to describe how naive and stupid that is. Just turn in your resignation to PA.

[chickenhead]

You mean you've never heard of women getting shot or beat up when caught sleeping with another man? What is your point? That this only happens in Muslim countries? Alot of American men also consider it a right or honor to kill in that situation as well. They just dont tie it to religion. Guess what? The Muslim religion doesnt allow it either.

You take the words of a murderer for the facts on a religion.I cant even find the words to describe how naive and stupid that is. Just turn in your resignation to PA.

So you refuse to admit that womens right's are radically different between say the US and Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia is governed by Sharia law, which is a strict interpretation taken from the Koran. Why would anyone give anything you say any credence at all when you are so blatantly unwilling to make any distinction on anything unless the United States comes out of it looking bad.

You don't have to take anyones word for it at all. It is a fact supported by any measure you care to take. Women have vastly more rights in the liberalized West than they do in the backwards Middle East.

And the amazing thing is that through it all you call yourself a liberal!

[Tom]

I heard Dubai was going to open a Disney-type them park.
It's main attaction - Future World - will be based on life in 1345!

[46zilzal]

I heard Dubai was going to open a Disney-type them park.
It's main attaction - Future World - will be based on life in 1345!
My brother in law travels to that area all the time and he tells me, from personal experience, that Dubai is head and shoulders above all the other countries in it's striving to move ahead. While not perfect by any means, it is a far cry from most of the countries surrounding it.

[The Judge]

If its O.K to just mow them down for any minor embarrassment that they might cause the family and any male can kill them father, brother, husband there should be bodies in the street. It should be dangerous to walk down a sidewalk for fear that some wife or sister might be thrown out of the three floor window as you pass.

What is the suicide rate for women in these countries? It should be much higher in the muslim countries then in the west.

Whatever is happening now there is still hope. Speaking of religion, in the west 7-9 million women were hanged and burned at the stake for being witches. Some estimates are only in the hundreds of thousand. They were tortured to confess if they didn't confess the torture killed them if they did then the were hung or burned. Its been awhile since a woman was burned at the stake (they can't be priest though).

So there is still hope for those bad Muslims.

[robert99]

Just what this forum needs -- another clueless wonder. I suppose Robert, when the Saudi religious police a few years ago wouldn't allow all those young school girls to flee their burning school because they were unveiled, that had nothing to do with their religious beliefs?

Boxcar


Boxcar,

I have actually lived in these countries.

The 14 schoolgirls were crushed because the school gates were locked by law. No one was killed by burning in the fire.
The religious police were upholding the Saudi law by fighting with Civil Defence staff who came into the school to put the fire out. It is against Saudi law for such men to see women without their cover and the muttawa were upholding the law and in a bizzarre sense protecting the women - as they see things. Stupid law - yes. No westerner and probably most Muslims would think for one moment they had to be so zealous, but in SA most do and they want to live their lives in their own country in that way. Please do not confuse the actions of a few unacceptable (to us) instances within the religion, with the whole religion.

Once again until it sinks in. This is yet another thread where someone or something is picked on to try to justify someone's prejudices against millions who wish to live their lives in a quite different way. Hitler used the same hypocritical tactics to indoctrinate Germany against the Jews. Sadly, ill treatment of women is worldwide and has nothing to do with religion - just the existance of certain cowardly males who can only take things out on physically weaker people.

Just take India where if the bride's dowry is not paid then the male family members of the groom think they are absolutely entitled to pour kerosene onto the bride and burn her alive.

[chickenhead]

Just take India where if the bride's dowry is not paid then the male family members of the groom think they are absolutely entitled to pour kerosene onto the bride and burn her alive.

Let me get this straight...if I condemn that, for instance, then I am "picking on them to try to justify my prejudices against millions who wish to live their lives in a quite different way"

Are you actually that deranged? If I say it is wrong to burn women with kerosene I am prejudiced? Is this honestly the mindset that you think represents liberalism? What sort of bizaro world do you live in? The world I live in oppressing women is the antithesis of liberalism, and as such should be criticised as being wrong, it is objectively wrong. Slaves do not choose how they live, btw.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Boxcar,

I have actually lived in these countries.

The 14 schoolgirls were crushed because the school gates were locked by law. No one was killed by burning in the fire.
The religious police were upholding the Saudi law by fighting with Civil Defence staff who came into the school to put the fire out. It is against Saudi law for such men to see women without their cover and the muttawa were upholding the law and in a bizzarre sense protecting the women - as they see things. Stupid law - yes. No westerner and probably most Muslims would think for one moment they had to be so zealous, but in SA most do and they want to live their lives in their own country in that way. Please do not confuse the actions of a few unacceptable (to us) instances within the religion, with the whole religion.

Once again until it sinks in. This is yet another thread where someone or something is picked on to try to justify someone's prejudices against millions who wish to live their lives in a quite different way. Hitler used the same hypocritical tactics to indoctrinate Germany against the Jews. Sadly, ill treatment of women is worldwide and has nothing to do with religion - just the existance of certain cowardly males who can only take things out on physically weaker people.

Just take India where if the bride's dowry is not paid then the male family members of the groom think they are absolutely entitled to pour kerosene onto the bride and burn her alive.

As much as some of these things has us has many (not all appereantly) upset with what is done in their own countries, this thread is about them doing these heinious acts in our other cultures, where it is clearly against our laws here, in GB, western nations, and standing up for our cultures beliefs and laws in not having them overrun.

Couple guy here can't even stand up for what I'd hope would be something we could all obviously agree on as a funamental right living in the U.S., Canada, GB and the rest, but obviously they can't seem to do that. And THEN they want to tell us who should lead us, and who is unfit to lead. Can't even stand up for their own beliefs (or, shudder, they don't hold the same beliefs or don't care what becomes of others who come and live in their countries!)

Hopefully the good justices in GB will proceduce and penalize those who commited the 'honor rape/torture/killing' in GB to the fullest extent of their laws. While it may be obvious to most of us, there are some who ultimately consider any legal punishments unfair because they were following their strict religious beliefs/teachings.

[delayjf]

Don't you just love diversity.

[Steve 'StatMan']

You mean you've never heard of women getting shot or beat up when caught sleeping with another man? What is your point? That this only happens in Muslim countries? Alot of American men also consider it a right or honor to kill in that situation as well. They just dont tie it to religion. Guess what? The Muslim religion doesnt allow it either.

I've heard it happen quite a few times, but thankfully it is still rather rare in the U.S., and is not accepted, but is procecuted to the full extent of the law. It isn't a 'free shot' to the offender, even though I might emotionally agree with a spouse (either sex) who was cheater on. Murder is flat out. Physical brutality is also illegal, and if charges are actually pressed, the law is most likely in the battered parties favor here, whether one emotionally agrees with the law or not.

You take the words of a murderer for the facts on a religion.I cant even find the words to describe how naive and stupid that is. Just turn in your resignation to PA.

That's what's occuring in the other countries. That's what their fanatic sects are teaching, and their strict religious societies and local governments are allowing in a surprising number of cases. That's what is occasionally spilling over into others socieites. I'm against that behavior, and I'll take your post as a silent agreement that you don't believe this poor treatment should be done either.

We're just wanting to be sure that these awful things don't pass themselves off into our own cultures, instead of it being argued that is should be allowed as their 'religious right' outside their own culture.

Heck, Italians are a great people. Most people in our culture, Italian or not, like Pizza, and the fine music and art. But our governments prosecute the Mafia and organized crime. Mafia murders, be it 'strictly business' or not, no matter, we still prosecute murderers. No matter how cool the Sopranos were.

I didn't think that was asking so damn much of people.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Don't you just love diversity.

Yeah, there are times when it seems the more things change, 'de verse' it gets!

[Light]

So you refuse to admit that womens right's are radically different between say the US and Saudi Arabia?

You're confusing the issue. Its not about where women have more rights. Its about a few Muslim bashing posters here who get any Muslim bashing story to report as purported facts that the Muslim religion okays the murder of women under certain circumstances. You need to either realize how ridiculous that notion is or resign from PA as well.

[chickenhead]

You're confusing the issue. Its not about where women have more rights. Its about a few Muslim bashing posters here who get any Muslim bashing story to report as purported facts that the Muslim religion okays the murder of women under certain circumstances. You need to either realize how ridiculous that notion is or resign from PA as well.

Which notion, that women are put to death for adultery in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc, under Sharia law? That is a fact, it is not a notion. Aren't you a member of any of the liberal human rights organizations? They talk about these cases.

These are all facts. What is the ridiculous notion again? Where you equated our liberal culture with their oppressively sexist culture? Yes, that is a ridiculous notion.

[DJofSD]

My brother in law travels to that area all the time and he tells me, from personal experience, that Dubai is head and shoulders above all the other countries in it's striving to move ahead. While not perfect by any means, it is a far cry from most of the countries surrounding it.

Reminds me of Iran, say, 30 years ago.

Where is that country now?

[PaceAdvantage]

You're confusing the issue. Its not about where women have more rights. Its about a few Muslim bashing posters here who get any Muslim bashing story to report as purported facts that the Muslim religion okays the murder of women under certain circumstances. You need to either realize how ridiculous that notion is or resign from PA as well.

Can you believe this guy is complaining about posters he sees "with an agenda?" Holy Shit. Now I've read it all....

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, some posters are being exposed here big time. I suggest you bow out gracefully now before you are left cold and naked (too late for you 46....you're in the frostbite range about now....)

[JustRalph]

You're confusing the issue. Its not about where women have more rights. Its about a few Muslim bashing posters here who get any Muslim bashing story to report as purported facts that the Muslim religion okays the murder of women under certain circumstances. You need to either realize how ridiculous that notion is or resign from PA as well.

should I post the link to the Muslim women being hanged in public last week? This happened in Iran. She was part of a murder plot...........so she deserved punishment.........but they straight hung her in public.........pretty ugly video.............her cohorts died on the rope next to her. Two men.

I recall when GW Bush was trashed when he allowed a women to be executed in Texas................where is all outcry now? Oh yeah, I forgot........it's a cultural thing..............not a religious thing?

[Light]

You guys are starting to sing a different tune. The original accusation is that the Muslim religion justifys murdering women under certain circumstances.Now you are saying governments kill women under certain circumstances.Which is it?You seem to be backing down from the religious aspect and changing to the political aspect. My objection has been to the linking of the Muslim religion with the acceptable murder of women.You got a link where it says that in the Koran?

[chickenhead]

You guys are starting to sing a different tune. The original accusation is that the Muslim religion justifys murdering women under certain circumstances.Now you are saying governments kill women under certain circumstances.Which is it?You seem to be backing down from the religious aspect and changing to the political aspect. My objection has been to the linking of the Muslim religion with the acceptable murder of women.You got a link where it says that in the Koran?

These are theocracies. The governments operate under Sharia Law. The judges are Muslim priests. I think you are forgetting that there is no seperation of church and state in these countries, they are one and the same. There is no distinction between religious and political.

As for where the justification comes from, it is the Hadith as well as the Koran. All of the teachings of Muhammed are not in the Koran, surely you know that. They are not held to any lesser standard or believed to be any less divine by Muslims. This is how they operate, argue with them that they don't have the justification, because they believe they do. You think you are better equipped to define Islam than the Arabians?

This method of trying to argue that what goes on in Iran and Saudi Arabia is not true Islam is a farcical. Considering all muslims get down on their knees and prostrate themselves several times daily to Saudi Arabia, considering that Arabia is where Islam originated, I think they understand Islam very well. That is what Islam is to them. They say it is the purest form, and considering their expertise, who am I to argue? These aren't a fringe group, they are the central brain trust and most vital geographical centers of the Muslim world. And these aren't radicals within a country, they form the government, they are the country -- the courts, the law, etc.

[betovernetcapper]

"Men are the protectors (Qawammon) of women because God has given preference to some over others. And because men spend of their property on women. So good women are obedient, guarding even unnoticed what Allah has asked them to guard. As for those for whom you fear rebellion i) talk to them ii) leave them alone in their beds iii) strike them"
Koran 4:34
One truly enlightened religion :rolleyes:

[chickenhead]

I honestly don't undertand this distinction over culture and religion anyway. The two are so intertwined as to be inseperable, as their culture is completely and totally dominated by their religion, and their religion has been shaped and defined by their tribal culture. But it does not matter to me whether you call it culture or religion, it is barbaric, it is stone age, and it is wrong.

I have a problem with anyone who hears about a 16 yr. old girl getting hung because she was raped, or school girls dying because of how they are dressed, and shrugging their shoulders and saying "oh well, to them that is right so I guess it is ok". That attitude is outrageous.

[Tom]

Dropping bombs on people who we don't like is part of our culture.
Oh well, guess Light will have to accept that, Zilly too. We are not about to change - it is our way!

:lol:

[46zilzal]

Dropping bombs on people who we don't like is part of our culture.

Part of the culture YOU support, not everyone supports wanton violence.

[46zilzal]

I have a problem with anyone who hears about a 16 yr. old girl getting hung because she was raped, or school girls dying because of how they are dressed, and shrugging their shoulders and saying "oh well, to them that is right so I guess it is ok". That attitude is outrageous.
So the West goes over there wasting resources that are needed domestically, attacks them and forces them to change hundreds of years of culture.......Dream world.

Sick of the smug World Policeman attitude.

Morally wrong? yes......Stuffing our points of view down their throat? That's what the idiots are doing in Iraq.

[Tom]

If you are going to give muslems a pass on thier cultures, then we get a pass, too. :kiss:

[Tom]

Morally wrong? yes......Stuffing our points of view down their throat? That's what the idiots are doing in Iraq.

Nope. you 100% wrong. Not even close to the truth.
Not in the same ball park. In fact, not even in the right sport.

[46zilzal]

If you are going to give muslims a pass on their cultures, then we get a pass, too.

Cultural norms in the countries native to them, okay

[chickenhead]

So the West goes over there wasting resources that are needed domestically, attacks them and forces them to change hundreds of years of culture.......Dream world.

Where have I said anything about going over there? I'm just trying to get everyone to agree that they are a morally repugnant society. How do you get them to change? Part of it is by keeping the fact they are a morally repugnant society front and center. Maybe by not trading with them, by having sanctions on them, and by actively being critical of their behavior. Right now we actively supporting them. Far from doing too much to change them, we are not doing anything to attempt to change them. That would be too politically incorrect. And costly to business.

It is Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc etc. that have educated me on the ways of the Middle East. You want to bitch about it, take it up with them.

[JustRalph]

I'm just trying to get everyone to agree that they are a morally repugnant society.

that is the ultimate point..............and mine also...............

[Steve 'StatMan']

Where have I said anything about going over there? I'm just trying to get everyone to agree that they are a morally repugnant society. How do you get them to change? Part of it is by keeping the fact they are a morally repugnant society front and center. Maybe by not trading with them, by having sanctions on them, and by actively being critical of their behavior. Right now we actively supporting them. Far from doing too much to change them, we are not doing anything to attempt to change them. That would be too politically incorrect. And costly to business.

It is Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc etc. that have educated me on the ways of the Middle East. You want to bitch about it, take it up with them.

that is the ultimate point..............and mine also...............

Mine too. The discussion, the articles and thoughts that started this thread, all had to do with abuses carried over from other societies into OUR societies (GB, US, Canada). It has nothing to do about invasions and being a world policeman - Tom mentioning bombing the other countries only confused this discussion and gave some people a reason to tune out & cop out, as well as an internet play slap.

[Light]

I think you are forgetting that there is no seperation of church and state in these countries

Islam has become politicized. These governments are using religion, as a political way of ruling the society.This does not mean there is no Islam where Mohammed said that women should be respected.

However the U.S. is no different in using the politicalization of Islam to oppress women. In Iraq, gender based violence is being carried out by militias who are essentially armed wings of the political parties that the US has boosted to power in Iraq. The US-brokered Iraqi constitution calls for implementation of Islamic Sharia law, as well as curtailing freedoms for women.

So if you're digusted by the treatment of women in the ME,you should realize your government is a bedfellow with those policies you so abhor.

[DJofSD]

So if you're digusted by the treatment of women in the ME,you should realize your government is a bedfellow with those policies you so abhor.

So, it is guilt by association.

Why exactly do you hate the United States so much?

[chickenhead]

This does not mean there is no Islam where Mohammed said that women should be respected.

Don't tell me, tell the women being caned (by the Imams) in Saudi Arabia that Islam is a gentle religion that respects them. They must not have gotten the memo.

As to you other point (twisted as you attempt to make it) I already addressed that.

[chickenhead]

These governments are using religion, as a political way of ruling the society.

If you remember, in Iran for instance, the RELIGION took over the GOVERNMENT...not the other way around. It's not like the Iranian government usurped religion for it's nefarious ends...the (peaceful women respecting) RELIGIOUS held a coup de tat....and now they (the nice religious folks) are free to do things like hang 16 yr old girls for "crimes against chastity".

The Iranian government, along with anyone else who could, ended up here in the US...and have made nice lives for themselves. The secularists didn't usurp religion, they were forced to run from it.

[Light]

Why exactly do you hate the United States so much?

How does stating facts equate to hating the U.S.?

[Steve 'StatMan']

Islam has become politicized. These governments are using religion, as a political way of ruling the society.This does not mean there is no Islam where Mohammed said that women should be respected.

However the U.S. is no different in using the politicalization of Islam to oppress women. In Iraq, gender based violence is being carried out by militias who are essentially armed wings of the political parties that the US has boosted to power in Iraq. The US-brokered Iraqi constitution calls for implementation of Islamic Sharia law, as well as curtailing freedoms for women.

So if you're digusted by the treatment of women in the ME,you should realize your government is a bedfellow with those policies you so abhor.

Twist, Distort, Reposture, Claim Superiority. Yada Yada Yada.

[Light]

Twist, Distort, Reposture, Claim Superiority. Yada Yada Yada.

But true.

[Steve 'StatMan']

But true.

Oh yeah? And you're one of the ones who doesn't want us to stop those militias.

Not that this was the purpose of the thread. You know what the purpose of the thread was for - about the violence and revenge murders being perpetrated in socieities outside the middle east, like the U.S, GB, Zilly's Canada, etc. by some muslims in their claim of doing it. Glad to see you refered to the people who carried this out as murderers, being careful to not use any reference to islam and their followers, and gave the impression that you refused to admit that there are people doing wrong by Islam, yet you refuse to admit that it the abuses have carried over into the western cultures by their practitioners.

But you just have to twist the subject back and find a way to blame it on the U.S.

Why do you keep re-igniting and throwing gasoline on the fire and keep destroying your reputation and by association those that you tell us practice the religion non-violently? You just keep making it worse. You truly are a sick man.

[Light]

You truly are a sick man.

If your definition of sickness is someone who speaks the truth, then you can call me Sicko.

[RXB]

I think it's pretty fair to say that our Western societies also have a history of moral repugnance. The treatment of blacks in the USA, the natives in Canada. Lynchings of blacks-- and whites who opposed the mistreatment-- was pretty common just 40 years ago in the South. And it wasn't until 40 years ago that Canada discarded a law that favoured people of European descent over non-white regions when it came to immigration. Not to mention some of the participation in foreign policy that was an abomination to all of the values that we hold so dearly for ourselves.

When it comes to treatment of women and various other cultural disagreements, I'm all for facing the Muslims head on-- particularly, those who are living in my own country. But let's be honest about our own historical and present shortcomings, too.

[PaceAdvantage]

When it comes to treatment of women and various other cultural disagreements, I'm all for facing the Muslims head on-- particularly, those who are living in my own country. But let's be honest about our own historical and present shortcomings, too.

We have been honest, and as Chickenhead rightly pointed out, that's what has allowed us to CHANGE for the better! There is no more slavery, there are no more lynchings. Are things perfect? Hell no. But they have certainly improved DRAMATICALLY over the past 40 years.

Compare and contrast that with countries in the Middle East, some of which have been around FOREVER. How much have they changed in 400 years, let alone 40 years?

[JustRalph]

you can read some interesting info about Lynching in the U.S. at this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

It's wikipedia so I am not sure how accurate it is............but the part about Dems lynching Repubs and Vice Versa was new to me..............


PA makes a great point. We have changed and evolved.........in contrast to the subject of the thread.............we could get into an entire discussion on mob mentality and discuss how the Middle East is constantly incited by their religious leaders who encourage mob rule in the streets as a tool............these actions all feed off one another...............

[Light]

........we could get into an entire discussion on mob mentality and discuss how the Middle East is constantly incited by their religious leaders who encourage mob rule in the streets as a tool..

Jeez Louize! You really are blind. Their leaders incite them but ours dont because we are some civilized nation? You guys are pathetic. There are thousands of stories about how our present administration beat the drums for wars and goons like you ate it up. Give it up allready. This country is no better than anyone and on numbers alone is #1 by 10 lengths when it comes to killing innocent people.

[Light]

What difference does it make if they incite death through religious means and we incite death through political persuasions. Death doesnt give a rats ass.

[Tom]

What difference does it make if they incite death through religious means and we incite death through political persuasions. Death doesnt give a rats ass.come on, man....you gotta be kidding!
Print a cartoon and muslems go ape shit in the streets and kill people!
That is NOT civilized.

[JustRalph]

Jeez Louize! You really are blind. Their leaders incite them but ours dont because we are some civilized nation? You guys are pathetic. There are thousands of stories about how our present administration beat the drums for wars and goons like you ate it up. Give it up allready. This country is no better than anyone and on numbers alone is #1 by 10 lengths when it comes to killing innocent people.


You are so full of it............. what in the hell does the highlighted statements above have to do with the topic? I am done with you.......once again.......you devolve...........instead of answering.........but then again that is problem with you and those you defend. I really hope you get it..........

JustRalph..........Out!!! :lol:

[delayjf]

Light,

Go look up mass-murder in the Guiness World Book of Records. I'm sure you'll recognize some of the names....they're icons of the left.

[46zilzal]

Light,

Go look up mass-murder in the Guiness World Book of Records. I'm sure you'll recognize some of the names....they're icons of the left.
Hitler was a fascist: hardly a LEFT position.

[lsbets]

Hitler was a fascist: hardly a LEFT position.

The National Socialist German Worker's Party (Nazi) was socialist - left wing. Very much a LEFT position.

[46zilzal]

The National Socialist German Worker's Party (Nazi) was socialist - left wing. Very much a LEFT position.
in name only.....If you call something black and it's actually white, it's still white.

[lsbets]

in name only.....If you call something black and it's actually white, it's still white.

The 25 Point Programme, the heart of Nazi economic policy, was socialist in nature, as written and as practiced. So once again you are incorrect. You're having a bad day today, aren't you?

[46zilzal]

Fascists are anything but left wingers. Never have been, never will be.

He practiced one thing, called it another.

[lsbets]

Fascists are anything but left wingers. Never have been, never will be.

He practiced one thing, called it another.

Dude - they were a racist, socialist party. Racism is neither right nor left, but socialism is definately left. You can try to deny it all you want, but the Nazi Party then and now is a party from the left side of the spectrum. It is a socialist party.

[RXB]

Fascism and communism both tended toward totalitarianism, and both rejected truly competitive private enterprise, but I'd have a hard time calling fascists left-wing or socialist. Hitler was no Marxist, thus "The Night of the Long Knives" to take care of the actual "socialists" in the Nazi Party.

Marxism is about the power of the proletariat; fascism is about the power of the state. Fascists despised workers' organizations, seeing them as a threat to the power of the state. Fascism preferred to concentrate power privately in the hands of a few individuals-- where, of course, it could be more easily controlled by the State. Fascists often invoked "God is on our side" while communism rejected the concept of a deity.

Anti-democratic states display many similar characteristics but I can't say that the totalitarianism of fascism is left-wing, like the communist dictatorships. Way too many conflicting views. Fascists and communists hated each other.

[chickenhead]

fascism is a very difficult term to pin down. I think RXB did a very good synopsis. As far as whether fascists are to the "left" of the political spectrum I would say they are, so long as the primary definition of left involves a strong centralized government, with individual rights subservient to the state. If you put anarchism on the far right of the spectrum, then fascism must by any reasonable definition be on the left (further to the left than our current structure here in the US, to be sure).

I have an easier time pinning down what it means to be a fascist (not an easy feat) than I do figuring out what "we" mean by the left or the right anymore.

[Light]

come on, man....you gotta be kidding!
Print a cartoon and muslems go ape shit in the streets and kill people!
That is NOT civilized.

Look who's talking about going ape.Apeman himself. CTC spoke,no cartoons drawn and you put up a pole to ban him. So how is your overreacting to a little talk on a little board,less psycho than a public worldwide cartoon belittling an entire religion? Once again,you guys think your shit dont stink.

[lsbets]

Look who's talking about going ape.Apeman himself. CTC spoke,no cartoons drawn and you put up a pole to ban him. So how is your overreacting to a little talk on a little board,less psycho than a public worldwide cartoon belittling an entire religion? Once again,you guys think your shit dont stink.

As far as I know Tom didn't try to kill Chuckles or get a riot going in the street. I don't think he burned any buildings down or smashed any windows. But, I could be wrong, he might have.

[46zilzal]

Hitler's Germany became known as a fascist state. Fascist was originally used to describe
the government of Benito Mussolini in Italy. Mussolini's fascist one-party state emphasized
patriotism, national unity, hatred of communism, admiration of military values and
unquestioning obedience. Hitler was deeply influenced by Mussolini's Italy and his
Germany shared many of the same characteristics.

The German economic system remained capitalistic but the state played a more
prominent role in managing the economy. Industrialists were sometimes told what to
produce and what price they should charge for the goods that they made. The government
also had the power to order workers to move to where they were required.

By taking these powers Hitler's government was able to control factors such as inflation
and unemployment that had caused considerable distress in previous years. As the
government generally allowed companies to maintain their profit margins, industrialists
tended to accept the loss of some of their freedoms.

Under fascism, most potential sources of opposition were removed. This included
political parties and the trade union movement. However, Hitler never felt strong
enough to take complete control of the German Army, and before taking important
decisions he always had to take into consideration how the armed forces would react.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitler.htm

or http://www.marxist.com/germany/chapter7.html

[Light]

LS

If you do a comparative analysis of Tom/CTC and Muslims/Cartoon energy outrage responses put on their relative scales of size and importance,Tom is a clear cut winner,considering he is one man and Muslims are millions.

Furthermore,(I know you love it when I talk Jewish),but if a similar cartoon was done about the Jews,not only would the Jews protest publicly,but you and they would be screaming it as anti-semitic racism. You should be aware you have double standards (in case you are brain dead).

[chickenhead]

but if a similar cartoon was done about the Jews

If? If? If wouldn't surprise me if you have anti semitic cartoons on your computer right now! "Anti Semitic Cartoon" turned up 900K google hits.

If they ever riot and kill 100 people in response to any of them, let us know.

BTW-- I have no problem with them protesting anything. Murder and riot, yeah, I have a problem with that.

[lsbets]

LS

If you do a comparative analysis of Tom/CTC and Muslims/Cartoon energy outrage responses put on their relative scales of size and importance,Tom is a clear cut winner,considering he is one man and Muslims are millions.

Furthermore,(I know you love it when I talk Jewish),but if a similar cartoon was done about the Jews,not only would the Jews protest publicly,but you and they would be screaming it as anti-semitic racism. You should be aware you have double standards (in case you are brain dead).

So you are comparing Jews protesting publicly with Muslims rioting and killing people. Wow.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Furthermore,(I know you love it when I talk Jewish),but if a similar cartoon was done about the Jews,not only would the Jews protest publicly,but you and they would be screaming it as anti-semitic racism. You should be aware you have double standards (in case you are brain dead).

Similar cartoons have been published in some arab and islamic country newspapers for decades. That's why most of us scoffed so much when the muslim masses in those same countries freaked out and killed scores, not even seeing the cartoons, just being roused by their leaders.

By the way, your post appears in all italics. I guess you were posting slanted truths again. :liar: ;)

[Tom]

Look who's talking about going ape.Apeman himself. CTC spoke,no cartoons drawn and you put up a pole to ban him. So how is your overreacting to a little talk on a little board,less psycho than a public worldwide cartoon belittling an entire religion? Once again,you guys think your shit dont stink.

I am typing this real slow so you might be able to understand it, dim wit.
First off, I put up a POLL, not a pole. Although a pole to the side of CTCs head might have been a better idea. Perhaps a smack on yours might do you some good, too. You have real issues with comprehension.

Calling Bush or anyone in our govenment -either partry- nazis is unacceptable. Period. Not only is it insulting and diusgusting - it trivializes the real horrors that was the nazis. But of course muslems, who were allies of the Third Reich, and even became part of its monster squads do not find Hitler and his ilk offensive. Many of the same qualities that drove the nazi drive islam today. I took CTC to task for being a complete waste of skin - a turd. A disgusting troll not fit to post on a civilized forum.
No riots in the streets, no mob murders, unlike mohamed's followers are so prone to do.

And did you see the cartoons? Not belittling in the least. Let me tell you, if I could draw worth damn, there would be much better toons out there!:lol:

Hard to belittle a so-called religion that belittles itself. 70% of palestieans believe homacide bombing is justified, so I guess all the crap stinks.

[Tom]

As far as I know Tom didn't try to kill Chuckles or get a riot going in the street. I don't think he burned any buildings down or smashed any windows. But, I could be wrong, he might have.:lol::lol::lol:

[Steve 'StatMan']

Speaking of Chuckles The Clown, I noticed a thread in the main forum page earlier today from an Our Boy Chuck, but when I looked in the thread, his post was not there. Our Boy Chuck is listed as having joined on 7/21/07 and has 4 posts, all of the unfindable on the search function. I have no idea what any of those posts were about.

Looks like "Somebody's" Boy Chuck is a being a Bad Boy. :p :bang:

[betovernetcapper]

Found this strange article about a fire in a Saudi school in which girls were not allowed to leave the building because they weren't wearing the correct Arab costume and as a result 14 of the girls died.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm

I don't know why but I find this kind of behavior offensive. `

[lsbets]

I don't know why but I find this kind of behavior offensive. `

Because you're racist dammit! Don't you know that's their culture. Just because its different doesn't make it wrong. Stop being so judgemental. ;)

[RXB]

Just for the record, the Islamic radicals display tendencies that are far more akin to fascism/Nazism than socialism.

Brutal totalitarian regimes take hold because of extremism, which occurs on both the far left and the far right.

[PaceAdvantage]

Speaking of Chuckles The Clown, I noticed a thread in the main forum page earlier today from an Our Boy Chuck, but when I looked in the thread, his post was not there. Our Boy Chuck is listed as having joined on 7/21/07 and has 4 posts, all of the unfindable on the search function. I have no idea what any of those posts were about.

Looks like "Somebody's" Boy Chuck is a being a Bad Boy. :p :bang:


That was a mistake....Our Boy Chuck's posts now should be appearing at a theatre near you....

[Steve 'StatMan']

That was a mistake....Our Boy Chuck's posts now should be appearing at a theatre near you....

My appologies to the good Our Boy Chuck! I'll take him off ignore immediately. Hopefully he can appreciate the irony of the timing.

We now return to our regularly scheduled arguing with smart people acting like idiots.

[Tom]

And Jerry Mathers as the "Beaver!":lol:

[The Judge]

is you Muslim haters look for something bad that the Muslims do to one another then jump all over it then say "see we told you " its a violent religion". If its a religion and they all are the "same religion" why is there a problem? You see the people there didn't like it they thought the girls died for nothing. Now you all make it sound like they all felt it was the right thing to do. Because thats that evil religion at work again.

There can only be a disagreement if they , the Muslims themselves, feel that the act that is being done is not part of their religion.

Muslim girls not being let out of a burning building what do think ,that this was Islam the Religion,if so why do the Muslims seem so outraged at this type of behavior. Why don't they just throw up thier hands and say it was "gods will'.

No they know this has nothing to do with the Koran ,but good looking out you guys. Muslim girls should feel safe around the world knowing you are on gaurd. Now if you can just help those Muslim girl in Iraq your sincerity might seem genuine.

[betovernetcapper]

Given that the girls were prevented from leaving the building by the "religious police", I've got to see a connection to Islam.

Riddle
Why are 14 dead Arab girls and a $2.6 show price alike?

Answer
Neither one is enough but it's better than nothing.

[chickenhead]

Now you all make it sound like they all felt it was the right thing to do.

Do I think there are many people suffering in these countries, Muslims who do not want to live under a theocracy? Of course! Many of these sorts of people have fled to the US and Canada and are building quite nice lives for themselves under the protections of our liberal freedoms, and are amongst the most vocal critics of these societies you'll find. That is one reason why it is so abominable. But on the flip side, allowing there are of course people who don't want that, there are also many many who do want that, who do believe the state religion should run everything. That is who deserves the criticism, and that is who I am talking about. I don't know why you think I'm criticizing the victims of these oppressive societies.

There can only be a disagreement if they , the Muslims themselves, feel that the act that is being done is not part of their religion.

Yes, and let there be disagreement! Let their be criticism of it, from all quarters, including the worldwide stage. How about we support the rights of minorities, and support liberal rights for all, rather than this sort of mush mouth nonsense of "they choose to live differently so its ok with me" that some seem to think somehow passes for compassionate enlightened thought. Those 14 girls didn't choose to live in that society.

why do the Muslims seem so outraged at this type of behavior. Why don't they just throw up thier hands and say it was "gods will'.

Well I guess all I can say is thank Allah the families are not following your lead. You and too many others amazingly seem to be doing just that.

[The Judge]

If they are the religious police and are correct why was the firemen fighting with them to get the girls out why is it that the public seems so upset with the "religious police"?

I'll have to come back later for my answer now I'm on my way to a catholic exorcism, then I'm going to drop in on my local back woods church and handle a few rattle snakes, then I'm on my way to Salt Lake where I here the elders are going to hold a press conference they just got word that Eskimos will be allowed into heaven after all, where there were before today who knows. In a couple of days I be at a big tent revival where the lame will walk and cancer will be cured ( I think you have to donate $10 to be cured ).

If Muslems would stop burning up there teenage daughters and stop wearing headscarves they to could join in on all the fun.

[chickenhead]

you guys are missing the point, Sharia Law can't be separated from Islam, Sharia Law is Islamic Law. Does that mean every Muslim wants Sharia law, of course not. But many many do. That is a large part of what the whole fundamentalist Islamic movement is about. Anti Liberal, Pro Sharia.

If you notice what is going on in Pakistan, we might see a Sharia there soon at the state level.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070720/wl_time/musharrafonthebrinkinpakistan

But if Musharraf really does take both gloves off in the tribal areas, that will just increase the likelihood of a split in the army, according to Hamid Gul, former head of the powerful Pakistani intelligence agency Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). "The officer's cadre are liberal, secular, they come from the elite classes. But the rank and file of the army were never secular, they were always religious," says Gul. "If there is a face-off between the army and people, the leadership may lose control of the army. The army does not feel happy. They are from the same streets, the same villages, the same bazaars of the lower and middle classes, and they want the same thing [Islamic law] for their country."

Poll in Britain found 40% of Muslims want Sharia, in Britain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml

Saudi Arabia is the fountainhead of extreme Sharia. These aren't "religious police", they are religious police, no need for the "". They are the real deal.

[The Judge]

aren't following my lead but I am following "their" lead. That is to say the regilious police were correct Muslim girls should dress a certain way in public, however there should be the "burning building exception." This is a problem that has nothing to do with the "whole religion" . It has to with zalots, people who don't know when to make an exception to the rule.

The parents aren't ready to throw out the whole religion nor move to the United States.

Save the Muslim girls from burning buildings and "honor Killings" if they just give up that silly religion ,and their oil ,we could save them all .How sporting of you all wonder why Muslims aren't lined up to take advantage of this.

By the way Muslims are here in the United States for the same reason other people came here ,to make a buck, not to practice Islam. There are many poor countries that they can go that are Muslim that will let them practice any way they choose they come here to make a buck.

[Tom]

So now you are going to counsel the muslems on how to run thier religion?
This is ok, this is not, this is fine, but you need an exception....:lol:



Tell you what, grab some of those rattlers and we'll send 'em over and see what happens!:eek:

[chickenhead]

all I can say is that after reading your posts I hope you are not an actual Judge.

That is to say the regilious police were correct

any statement that begins as such is beyond my comprehension.

[RXB]

Poll in Britain found 40% of Muslims want Sharia, in Britain.



This is the part that I can't take; if you can't live by the laws and ways of the country you're in, get out. But they like the food and cars and houses that the western society provides, even while they denounce it as sick and evil, so of course they want to stay. And make everyone else follow their backward ideas. And clearly, this is not a "small minority," is it?

We need to stand firm against this.

[boxcar]

aren't following my lead but I am following "their" lead. That is to say the regilious police were correct Muslim girls should dress a certain way in public, however there should be the "burning building exception." This is a problem that has nothing to do with the "whole religion" . It has to with zalots, people who don't know when to make an exception to the rule.

The parents aren't ready to throw out the whole religion nor move to the United States.

Save the Muslim girls from burning buildings and "honor Killings" if they just give up that silly religion ,and their oil ,we could save them all .How sporting of you all wonder why Muslims aren't lined up to take advantage of this.

By the way Muslims are here in the United States for the same reason other people came here ,to make a buck, not to practice Islam. There are many poor countries that they can go that are Muslim that will let them practice any way they choose they come here to make a buck.


Well, two can play this game, Mr. Judge. You say,

The parents aren't ready to throw out the whole religion nor move to the United States.

Firstly, you don't know either to be true. If it is true, document it for us.

Secondly, if it is true and the parents are still happy campers with their religion, then it seems to me that they, too, just fall into the group of "zalots" (SP) who allowed the girls to be crispy fried.

Finally, if these "zalots", who essentially murdered these girls, were merely a very small bunch of whacked out extremists who didn't represent mainstream Islam, can you document for us what the "mainsteam" Islamic government did to prosecute this bunch of crazed, religious "zalots" to bring them to justice?

Boxcar

[The Judge]

" 15 Girls Die As "Zealots" Drive Them Into Blaze. This was the Headlilne from the Telegarph.co.uk. So what would you call them if not zealots? That the headline that went around the world. I know, they are just normal everyday Muslims doing what they do best killing women. Give it up, the people were fighting them but thats not enough for some of you.

The date on the headline was 3/15/02 you guys are over 5 years late thanks for coming to the rescue. Why don't you go back 20 years maybe you can find some more dirt.

If the parents are coming to the US surly they are here by now and the anti -muslims would have parade them on T.V.

While we are waiting for our buddies is Saudi Arabia to act try this out WWW.newsobserver.com/719/Story/53394.htm.Can't get it to work but it was the normal story about Jehovahs Witnesses not Allowing blood transfusions for primies that would save their lives.

[boxcar]

" 15 Girls Die As "Zealots" Drive Them Into Blaze. This was the Headlilne from the Telegarph.co.uk. So what would you call them if not zealots? That the headline that went around the world. I know, they are just normal everyday Muslims doing what they do best killing women. Give it up, the people were fighting them but thats not enough for some of you.

The date on the headline was 3/15/02 you guys are over 5 years late thanks for coming to the rescue. Why don't you go back 20 years maybe you can find some more dirt.

If the parents are coming to the US surly they are here by now and the anti -muslims would have parade them on T.V.

While we are waiting for our buddies is Saudi Arabia to act try this out WWW.newsobserver.com/719/Story/53394.htm.Can't get it to work but it was the normal story about Jehovahs Witnesses not Allowing blood transfusions for primies that would save their lives.

You dodged my questions. And why do you post some link regarding JWs? We're not talking about them. We're talking about religious whack jobs, which may very well include the victims' mothers since, as you claim, they didn't give up Islam.

Furthermore, I still want to know if the more "sensible, moderate, mainstream" Islamic Saudi government ever tried these nutcases for murder to bring them to justice? Or is this just a religion of pieces caused by homocide bombers instead of peace, as portrayed in our mainstream media?

Boxcar

[The Judge]

No matter what anyone says Boxcar you won't accept it ,so here is a man you might listen to, George W. Bush, you do remember the Port Deal where the president of the United States George W. Bush went to bat for Islam don't you. George W. Bush is your man isn't he. He threaten to veto any bill by man or beast ,Republican or Democrat that tried to stop the deal. That's six US ports under the control of the people you claim are "wack jobs".

Here is the President of the US who says they are great and should run 6 US ports and then there is you calling out in the night "wack jobs" which is it ?Better let George W. know he seems to disagree .

Google Saudi Arabia US Ports and read the Presidents position.

[boxcar]

No matter what anyone says Boxcar you won't accept it ,so here is a man you might listen to, George W. Bush, you do remember the Port Deal where the president of the United States George W. Bush went to bat for Islam don't you. George W. Bush is your man isn't he. He threaten to veto any bill by man or beast ,Republican or Democrat that tried to stop the deal. That's six US ports under the control of the people you claim are "wack jobs".

Here is the President of the US who says they are great and should run 6 US ports and then there is you calling out in the night "wack jobs" which is it ?Better let George W. know he seems to disagree .

Google Saudi Arabia US Ports and read the Presidents position.

This is the best you can do? You can't answer the direct questions, so you shift the conversation to different subjects? Typical mindless liberal drivel. (It's no wonder at all such drivel is in such small demand over the U.S. radio air waves!)

My point was that if the Saudi government didn't prosecute and try these extremists who murdered all those young girls by letting them toast in a blazing fire, then these extremists didn't just make up some tiny percentage of the Saudi population because the Saudi State, at bare miniumum, gave tacit approval to their actions by virtue of doing nothing. And let's take this a step further. Did the People rise up against these Religious Police? Did the People protest against their government for not seeking justice in the matter.

Let's hear a huge HA-RAH for the Religion of Pieces!

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

[QUOTE=The Judge
Google Saudi Arabia US Ports and read the Presidents position.[/QUOTE]

I tried to Google your suggestion above.
Can you make your link or links more specific?
Or, better yet, post the suggested sites in this forum?

[PaceAdvantage]

George W. Bush is your man isn't he.

See, this is why you and most others of your ilk are so silly (or is that Zilly?). I know Boxcar didn't answer your question, but I betcha if he did, the answer would be "NO, GWB is not my man!"

You THINK you know what Boxcar is all about because you zero-in on certain words or statements that set off your "Boxcar must be a right-wing Christian fundamentalist fascist Bush-loving Hitler wannabe" alarms.

But in reality, it's your lack of comprehension that makes you look silly (or is that Zilly?) to those of us that know better.

[The Judge]

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/bush-to-veto-any-attempt-to-block-port-deal. It is also reported that Saudi Arabia already controls 9 US ports and they are listed. I couldn't get it to work first time with my original post.http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,185479,00.html

[The Judge]

I don't know who Boxcar really is and don't care who he really is. I how he sounds when he talks about Muslims. What gets me is ,who doesn't think not letting girls out of a burning building is wrong, and yet this government does business with these very nations. Yet you want to act as if there is something wrong with me. I can be excused I might not have all the facts but what about an entire Executive Branch of government with unlimited resources whats their excuse?

This happened over 5 years ago what was the point of bringing it up now? Surly some Muslim's somewhere have done something wrong since then.

I point this out and you say I don't know Boxcar, I have met people and dealt with people like Boxcar all my life, whats so new about Boxcar. Now its only if the govenment would punish these Muslim Cops then Muslim would have proven that they are fit to be at the table of man. What non-sense no matter what they do the won't be fit enough for people like Boxcar.

It does'nt seem to me that the good people of Islam are looking for any approval form Boxcar or anyone else on this board. They are too busy going around the world buying up Ports and rubbing elbows with Presidents.

[Tom]

46 and the Judge....which one is "Flip" and which one is "Flop?" :lol:

Both have a habit of getting backed into a conrer and then changing the subject.

[The Judge]

46 must be flop. Now who are you and your gang? Oh yeah, "prove that the parents of the burned girls didn't move to the United States, see you can't do it can you," and Tom you back such craziness.

If you guys are really are so upset with these bad,bad ,Muslims I assume you don't buy any of their oil and walk wherever you go. You all certainly wouldn't support them financially would you! Oh that doesn't count because "I need my car and because its me."

I am starting to understand you are really hardcore.

[Tom]

There he goes again.

[boxcar]

I don't know who Boxcar really is and don't care who he really is.

'Tis true because you're another Clueless Wonder. But I know who you are. You're just another brainwashed, mind-numbed, naieve robot who only knows how to march in lockstep to the propaganda and mindless rhetoric of the Extreme Left. You strike me as one who has never had an original thought in your entire sorry, pathetic life.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know who Boxcar really is and don't care who he really is.

Yet you think you knew enough to post "GWB is your man....."

It always comes back to GWB, doesn't it? Why is that?

GWB isn't OUR man....he's YOUR man....he's YOUR obsession, apparently, since you and all those of your ilk can't stop mentioning him every single chance you get...no matter the subject.

[The Judge]

It did seem to me that there was a split on this board between those that were pro-Bush and those that weren't and it certainly did seem that those that were anti-Islam were pro-Bush and Boxcar was one of them.

So far you PA have implied he isn't pro-Bush,nothing from him. What is it my imagination? Next thing you'll be saying is that nobody voted for Bush. Talk about not answering questions. Can anyone that may have been pro-Bush at some point in the past (seeing as how everyone is agaisnt him now) answer, why a conservative Excecutive Branch of government backs UAE (Islam )taking over and running US ports and see nothing wrong with it , and Boxcar states the governments aren't fit to be dealt with? http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/meet-the-national-shipping-company-of-saudi-arabia/

What gives, who is right Boxcar or the conservatives in government. If its just Boxcars opinion then certainly there can be nothing wrong with more then one opinion. Of course the government seems to have expressed an official position not an opinion.

[boxcar]

It did seem to me that there was a split on this board between those that were pro-Bush and those that weren't and it certainly did seem that those that were anti-Islam were pro-Bush and Boxcar was one of them.

So far you PA have implied he isn't pro-Bush,nothing from him. What is it my imagination?

Yes, it is your overwoked, overwrought, malnourished imagination! Bush has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the narrow topic at hand, which is how the "peace-lovin'" religion of Islam permits its men to treat its women (at least according to how very many or even most male Muslims intrepret their religion). This is precisely why I wouldn't give your question the time of day. I woudn't dignify such a red herring with an answer. I simply don't play these kinds of stupid, miindless, juvenille games.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

I voted for Bush in 2004, you betta believe it....a no-brainer compared to the other choice.

Would I vote for him now if he were running in 2008, hell no. I'd much rather go with Fred Thompson or Rudy G. at this point....

[Light]

You wont vote for him again cause he cant run again. If Bush was allowed to run for a 3rd term, Bush would regurgitate a few slogans and all you cycloptic voters would start to drool like Homer Simpson.

[chickenhead]

it certainly did seem that those that were anti-Islam were pro-Bush

As to whether I am anti-Islam it depends on how you define it, as it is practiced in many different ways, but I am certainly anti-Islam as it is practiced by many millions upon millions upon millions, and anti-Islam as it has been codified as the state in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan or old, Nigeria, etc.

I have never been Pro-Bush, and I have never voted for George Bush, Sr or younger.

[betovernetcapper]

I voted for GW and while he's no Ronald Regan, I'd not only vote for him over Clinton-Obama, I'd walk barefoot through 20 miles of frozen tundra for the privilege of doing so.

[PaceAdvantage]

You wont vote for him again cause he cant run again. If Bush was allowed to run for a 3rd term, Bush would regurgitate a few slogans and all you cycloptic voters would start to drool like Homer Simpson.

This is the type of reply I'd expect from a rutabaga, not a supposedly intelligent being.

[chickenhead]

I just don't understand the thinking behind how unless you are a "Bushy" you wouldn't be outspokenly vocal about the pit of wretchedness that is popular Muslim culture in most of these Muslim countries. (Especially when its been noted that Bush panders to these monsters) I am still waiting for someone to tell me why someone with a liberal mindset would not be just as outspoken (like I am).

The fact is, all of the liberal organizations have been on about the atrocities and horifficness of these societies for a long time now, but the left has gone totally mum now that concern over them is shared by many of those on the right. It is as if many on the left care more about disagreeing with anything related to the right than they do about their own liberal ideals. And this makes me sick.

I for one am happy to say that as a very definite social liberal these things have always concerned me...and I haven't changed. Watching social liberals defend these monsters of oppression literally almost makes me ill. Listening to a liberal start a sentence of by saying "Well the religious police were correct" makes my head spin. I honestly think, and I've said this before, that hatred for Bush has caused some to lose their minds. That's not hyperbole, that is my honest assessment.

As I've said before, GET A GRIP.

[JustRalph]

You wont vote for him again cause he cant run again. If Bush was allowed to run for a 3rd term, Bush would regurgitate a few slogans and all you cycloptic voters would start to drool like Homer Simpson.

you prove each day that you are more and more an idiot............in the face of an entire thread dominated by individuals who are questioning the treatment of women in muslim nations.........you try to change the focus to Bush..............he is your president........get used to it.........only 18 months to go

[Tom]

The daily e mails hav ea strong influence on many here. Many who have not enterained an orgiinal thought in decades. One prominent earlier i this thread was observed purchaing a new product called "Lib On."
Whenver you thing a thought not covered in the daily e mail, apply it directly to your forehead.

Lib On, apply directly to the forehead.
Lib On, apply directly to the forehead.



:lol:

[Greyfox]

I voted for GW and while he's no Ronald Regan, I'd not only vote for him over Clinton-Obama, I'd walk barefoot through 20 miles of frozen tundra for the privilege of doing so.

Barefoot through frozen tundra. Not a wise decision, but devoted.
In another incarnation you might make a good Muslim. Blind loyalty required.
Yes. It would take that mindset to vote for him again.:lol:

[Light]

..you try to change the focus to Bush.............

This is a perfect example of why you dont understand what others say on this board. You cant even follow the thread. I was responding to the previous flow in the thread and more specifically when Pa says right before my last post,that he wouldnt vote for Bush again

In a court of law,you may introduce supposedly irrelevant evidence if one side is allowed to present such evidence. Its only fair the other side gets to rebut it.I did not intend to change the subject but respond to someone who did.Good luck with your reading comprehension.You can get your GED on line now.

[PaceAdvantage]

Its only fair the other side gets to rebut it.I did not intend to change the subject but respond to someone who did.

OBJECTION YOUR HONOR! Let the evidence show that it was not *I* who changed the subject....I was merely responding to someone who did.....

Your witness....

[hcap]

As to whether I am anti-Islam it depends on how you define it, as it is practiced in many different ways, but I am certainly anti-Islam as it is practiced by many millions upon millions upon millions, and anti-Islam as it has been codified as the state in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan or old, Nigeria, etc.

I have never been Pro-Bush, and I have never voted for George Bush, Sr or younger.I agree with most of this.

But there is an anger towards the west that in many cases is justified.
That is anger, is justified not violent reactions. Please don't think I agree with beheadings or other acts that are clearly objectionable to any humane culture.

The balanced objective view however must include what we so nonchalantly call "collateral damage". Even if you don't accept the Lancet study, the damage in humanitarian terms in Iraq since the invasion is much worse than the way some Muslims treat women.

So you can rail against backwards religions, and anti humane cultures, but looking at the timber in our own eye, is also required.

Yes let us all fight against terror, and end primitive religious atrocities, but let's not forget what we do in the name of defeating "evil doers".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6921617.stm

..It suggests that 70% of Iraq's 26.5m population are without adequate water supplies, compared to 50% percent prior to the invasion. Only 20% have access to effective sanitation.

...Nearly 30% of children are malnourished, a sharp increase on the situation four years ago. Some 15% of Iraqis regularly cannot afford to eat.

..The report also said 92% of Iraq's children suffered from learning problems.

..Millions of Iraqis have been forced to flee the violence, either to another part of Iraq or abroad - many of those are living in dire poverty

"Basic services, ruined by years of war and sanctions, cannot meet the needs of the Iraqi people," the director of Oxfam International, Jeremy Hobbs, said.

[Light]

Oppression and occupation by an anti Islamic country (be it Israel or U.S.),substandard living situations,unemployment,disease,hunger,forced lockdowns,random arrests,random beatings, are all excellent breeding grounds for the underdog to turn to terrorism and ask Allah for help from this cruel monster.What do you expect? Ass kissers.Oh they hate our values allright. Because we have one for ourselves and another for "them".

Why be appalled by beheadings and suicide attacks,but not by cluster bombs,phosphorous bombs,or DU's that do alot more damage. A mechete to cut off one head at a time and or an F16 to smash alot of heads at one time? Choose your weapon.:rolleyes: I know its a tough decision. Our counselors are standing by should you need assistance.

[boxcar]

timber in our own eye[/B], is also required.

Pray tell, sir: What would any real or imagined "timber in our own eye" have to do with intolerant, misguided, ignorant and delusional religious zealots whose mission in life is to convert the world's population to its brand of religion and have all peoples in all places adhere to their Sharia Law...or else?

Boxcar

[chickenhead]

Oppression and occupation by an anti Islamic country (be it Israel or U.S.),substandard living situations,unemployment,disease,hunger,forced lockdowns,random arrests,random beatings, are all excellent breeding grounds for the underdog to turn to terrorism and ask Allah for help from this cruel monster.What do you expect? Ass kissers.Oh they hate our values allright. Because we have one for ourselves and another for "them".

What does any of this have to do with the brutal and systemic abuse of women in Muslim countries?

[Tom]

CH-it distacts fro the real islam. The real monsters.

[RXB]

Pray tell, sir: What would any real or imagined "timber in our own eye" have to do with intolerant, misguided, ignorant and delusional religious zealots whose mission in life is to convert the world's population to its brand of religion and have all peoples in all places adhere to their Law... or else?

Boxcar

I edited the quote by removing one word, and having done so, gosh, it's a concise history of Christianity.

Agnostics of the world: unite!

[delayjf]

it's a concise history of Christianity

Ancient history perhaps, but I don't recall any Christian suicide bombers recently.

[melman]

"Agnostics of the world unite". They did under the "leadership" of Hitler and Stalin. We all know how that worked out don't we.



'

[The Judge]

He must have felt he was on the side of God fearing rightousness. He committed slow suicide.

Whats wrong with Muslim's and their religion? Its good enough for the CIA , The State Department, the President and Halliburton, they just moved their handquarters to get closer to them. Its good enough for all the big wheels of industry and politics ,boy we horse players are a picky lot.

I thought these were you guys strong suit ,free enterprise and Republicans. What happened? Why are they moving there (Saudia Arabia)and saleing US ports? They must not be as bad as some of you make them out to be.

O.K I see I'm not going to get an answer I'll move on. How about this ,they think it was out of control "zealots" and not a whole religion, plus these Muslims have MONEY!

[delayjf]

He must have felt he was on the side of God fearing rightousness. He committed slow suicide.

He wasn't a suicide bomber and was one man acting unilaterally. He was motivated by his delusional hatred of the US Federal Government. He didn't kill anyone in the name of God nor did he ever purport that all Christians should target all non-christians to either convert or die.

Haliburton is moving its corporate HQ to Dubai. All the other on the list are staying put.

[Tom]

Anyone got a Judge-English/English-Judge dictionary?
I have no clue what this guy is ranting about anymore. :confused::bang:

[RXB]

Ancient history perhaps, but I don't recall any Christian suicide bombers recently.

So it's only suicide bombers who qualify as zealots?

Islam has taken the lead and has the momentum right now in the Kooky Religion Bowl, but these things can change quickly...

[RXB]

"Agnostics of the world unite". They did under the "leadership" of Hitler and Stalin. We all know how that worked out don't we.


Mel, there were 20 million Indians who starved to death, plus about 1.5 million Irish, in large measure due to colonial British policy during the "Christian" reign of Queen Victoria. And I could go on and on about atrocities committed by Christians.

You're right, of course, that non-believers can be murderous kooks, too.

[chickenhead]

Anti-Kooks Unite!

[The Judge]

Wasn't a suicide bomber? Then was he a "zealot"? Was he any better then a suicide bomber? "No christian suicide bomers lately," no just your plain everyday bombers, but thru your eyes there is some huge difference. Strange!

[Steve 'StatMan']

Wasn't a suicide bomber? Then was he a "zealot"? Was he any better then a suicide bomber? "No christian suicide bomers lately," no just your plain everyday bombers, but thru your eyes there is some huge difference. Strange!

Dude, rephrasing what Chickenhead was saying, McVey's murderous actions were not done in the name of religion, or to force others to knuckle-under anyone elses's religioius agenda. It was done, however, as a strike against the goverment over things that he, as an individual, had some problems with to the point of turning into a sick killing bastard. That he apperently had a christian background had nothing to do with WHY he did the terrible things he did.

[Steve 'StatMan']

I should also add that McVey knew damn well what he was doing was morally wrong and illegal, and did it anyway because he had a grudge against the government. The original argument in the thread is that the zealots battering and murdering their wives and daughters are doing so because they claim the religion tells them to.

[boxcar]

Ancient history perhaps, but I don't recall any Christian suicide bombers recently.

Indeed! RXB must be stuck in some time warp.

Boxcar

[betovernetcapper]

I love the way the thread kind of stays on course. It began with 14 girls burned to death because of the Islamic religious police. We've now wondered onto Tim MeVey who might not have blown up the Oka' Federal building had not Janet Reno burned a bunch of Christians in Waco.
Maybe the lesson here is not to burn innocents in buildings even if your told to by Allah or one of the Clintons.

[Steve 'StatMan']

I love the way the thread kind of stays on course. It began with 14 girls burned to death because of the Islamic religious police. We've now wondered onto Tim MeVey who might not have blown up the Oka' Federal building had not Janet Reno burned a bunch of Christians in Waco.
[Quote]Maybe the lesson here is not to burn innocents in buildings even if your told to by Allah or one of the Clintons.

Interesting way of putting that.

Yeah, that sure was a whacked out cult in Waco, the Branch Dividians, if I remember correctly. Plenty of sub-cults that get created, in this case a distorted bunch twisting christianity. Guns and weapons, creating their own internal society, forcing people into their extreme cult and not letting them out. Maybe wanted to take over the country, but would be lucky to take over another square mile.

I love the way the thread kind of stays on course. It began with 14 girls burned to death because of the Islamic religious police. We've now wondered onto Tim MeVey who might not have blown up the Oka' Federal building had not Janet Reno burned a bunch of Christians in Waco.

Seems like the 'I won't lose an argument if the argument never ends' strategy.

Not sure who's suffered more, the poor little 14 Islamic girls who were tragically burned to death, or all of us in this thread.

I wouldn't mind knowing what the punishment would have been had the girls actually been let out without their veils in front of the firemen, and the local Islamic Police had known about it. Couldn't have been worse than being sentenced to burning to death. CAUTION! I would mind knowing if it will keep this thread open signicantly longer and we keep arguing. I think we all can't stand overzealotry, wherever and whoever practices it. We've all have common sense. Just hard to watch people suffer when people, especially the young, are forced to suffer when zealotry trumps common sense.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Not sure who's suffered more, the poor little 14 Islamic girls who were tragically burned to death, or all of us in this thread.

To head off misunderstandings among the humorless who don't understand jokes, we're all suffering this thread - but of course the poor little islamic girls suffered more - can't imagine a worse death than by burning - I know it's my personal 'worst way' to go.

[Light]

Not sure who's suffered more, the poor little 14 Islamic girls who were tragically burned to death...


You and others here hate Muslims. Thats been made clear. Now you fools suddenly have sympathy for 14 Islamic girls. My ass. You use this incident to further portray Muslims as villans. When Bush waged shock and awe,there were alot more than 14 innocent girls whose lives were cut short. Where was your sympathy then?You cheered as they died. If someone spoke out against it you called them traitors. You dont fool me and you dont fool Allah,Mohhamed,Buddha,Krisna or JC. Next.

[highnote]

Whats wrong with Muslim's and their religion? Its good enough for the CIA , The State Department, the President and Halliburton, they just moved their handquarters to get closer to them. Its good enough for all the big wheels of industry and politics ,boy we horse players are a picky lot.

I thought these were you guys strong suit ,free enterprise and Republicans. What happened? Why are they moving there (Saudia Arabia)and saleing US ports? They must not be as bad as some of you make them out to be.


Maybe they are moving closer to them because they are following the advice of "Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer."

[PaceAdvantage]

You and others here hate Muslims.

a) Absolutely NOT true. Your closed mind is again performing dangerous tricks.

You cheered as they died.

b) Again, absolutely NOT true. See a) above.

[boxcar]

You dont fool me and you dont fool llah,Mohhamed,Buddha,Krisna or JC. Next.

You're right, Light, because no one can either counsel or "fool" a fool; for a fool is always wise in his own eyes.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

You and others here hate Muslims. Thats been made clear. Now you fools suddenly have sympathy for 14 Islamic girls. My ass. You use this incident to further portray Muslims as villans.

Ah, yes. Of couse, you're right again. Muslims aren't villans; they're Victims -- victims of their own ignorance, self-deceit and self-induced delusions.

Boxcar

[delayjf]

You and others here hate Muslims. Thats been made clear.
I don't hate anyone willing to practice their religion in peace. But I do draw the line at any religion that preaches suicide bombings as a tenent of that faith - I don't care if they're Muslim or Methodist.

Now you fools suddenly have sympathy for 14 Islamic girls.
Do you?? Sounds to me like you’re endorsing what happened to them. I could care less if you are unimpressed with my sympathy towards 14 little girls who were needlessly allowed to burn to death. But I am curious, do you condone what happened?? Will you not stand up and say that the actions of those involved are unconscionable?? If not, that tells me all I need to know about you.

There is a big difference between innocent lives lost as a result of their unfortunate proximity to war and those that are targeted on purpose. And yes, I do grieve the loose of innocent Iraqi life. But I don't know one Marine I ever served with that would not have risked their life to open that gate for those little girls. Nor do I know any pilot I ever flew with that would have knowingly dropped a bomb that would have resulted in civilian death. I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT TO YOU THAT THE ONLY REASON THIS WAR DRAGS ON, IS BECAUSE THE US IN TRYING TO LIMIT CIVILIAN CAUSUALTIES - if the US engaged in total war, this thing would be done in a month. AND THE US CAUSULTIES WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT LESS.

[Light]

a) Absolutely NOT true. Your closed mind is again performing dangerous tricks.



All I read is that Muslims are the reason for wars. That they are hotheaded,overreacting,unreasonable,headcutters. That their religion teaches them to murder. Several here have mentioned nuking them like an exterminating company would do to cockaroaches. If all this sounds lovey dovey to you,I pity your wife.



because no one can either counsel or "fool" a fool; for a fool is always wise in his own eyes.

I have never claimed to be wise. I am defending a race of people from slander,myth,hatred and prejudicial misconceptions. If that makes me a fool in your eyes,I am happy to be one.

[Light]

. But I don't know one Marine I ever served with that would not have risked their life to open that gate for those little girls.

Never heard of Haditha, huh? Mr. do no wrong Marine?


Nor do I know any pilot I ever flew with that would have knowingly dropped a bomb that would have resulted in civilian death.


Never heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,huh?Mr see no evil Air Force man.

[46zilzal]

If it were only that easy to be simply black and white.

[boxcar]

If it were only that easy to be simply black and white.

Yes, of course. But it's even easier to be a Moral Relativist and see nothing but gray.

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

Yes, of course. But it's even easier to be a Moral Relativist and see nothing but gray.


That's because reality is very rarely black and white.

[Tom]

But that's the way you play it.

[JustRalph]

That's because reality is very rarely black and white.

Bullshit. Unless you rationalize things.........it is almost always black and white. Analogous to "Right" and "Wrong" Most decisions in life are pretty much black and white or positive versus negative especially when it comes to moral questions.............the grey area is pretty small when you come right down to it.............

[46zilzal]

Right and wrong come after one weighs the various shades of gray in a situation. But then again cops don't EVER think that way and walk around with concealed weapons.......even off the job quick to compartmentalize the next right and wrong.

Never quit goes away does it? The need to laud one's position over others.

[JustRalph]

I won't run off topic behind you 46.......... too busy to get into this discussion. You take a personal shot once again.............you have a hard on for cops.........ok.........I get it...........and it's boring............sorry the concealed weapon permit pisses you off too.........but down here in the states we have a thing called the 2nd amendment and some of us believe in it.

[46zilzal]

One can believe is something and not HAVE TO participate. That is the bogus crap about the 2nd amendment. It is akin to the clowns who have to put in an insurance claim, real or imagined, because they think they have to.

[delayjf]

Never heard of Haditha, huh? Mr. do no wrong Marine?

I never said that atrocities did not occur. Easy for you to judge, why don't you pick up a rifle an walk a mile in their shoes and witness your friends getting killed and maimed, beheaded etc - we'll see how you react. I still maintain those same Marines your now curse would have done something to save those girls while your buddies, the people you support, WILLINGLY watched them burn, shrugged their shoulders and proclaim "Insha Allah"
To my knowledge, nobody at Gitmo has had their head removed by a K-Bar.

Never heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,huh?Mr see no evil Air Force man.
For the record, I disagree with Trumans decision to drop the bomb, so did almost all of his Generals. I wonder what Bin ladin would opt for. That was a tough call for the Aircrew of the Enola Gay - nuke a city and kill thousands of civilians OR let 1 million of your own country men die in the invasion of Japan. Compare that with, strap a bomb to your back kill innocent civilians and get 40 virgins in heaven. Any why strap a bomb to you back and kill innocent women and children ??- because Osama doen't like the American presence in the Mid-east. It's not that the US is raping and slaughtering his country men (like the Japanese) or that the US has decimated his Country in an unprovoked attacked (like the Japanese AND Al Qaida).

I'm sorry the US was not forced to invade Japan and thus provide you with a long list of casualties to get off on. Better luck next time. And who knows maybe there will be a Christian revolution and we'll start packing some bombs of our own and walking them into a crowded Mosque in Mecca while they're doing their laps. Then you can claim moral equivalence.

[Steve 'StatMan']

You and others here hate Muslims. Thats been made clear. Now you fools suddenly have sympathy for 14 Islamic girls. My ass. You use this incident to further portray Muslims as villans. When Bush waged shock and awe,there were alot more than 14 innocent girls whose lives were cut short. Where was your sympathy then?You cheered as they died. If someone spoke out against it you called them traitors. You dont fool me and you dont fool Allah,Mohhamed,Buddha,Krisna or JC. Next.

Bush gave Saddam the choice of leaving the country & avoiding the bloodshed of many, but he refused.

Saddam, the Taliban, etc. cant' get gotten to without someone around them being in the way. No way to get them without someone dying. I was thrilled when the Saddam and the Taliban were overthrown. I want the bad guys defeated. The world want the bad guys defeated. The world needs the bad guys defeated. You kept arguing your oppposition to that. The actions that would help save others in the region and bring about and end to their evil rule and oppression, so they don't harm the innocents of our allies, stage attacks against our allies and/or us, and kill our innocents. You think you are not a traitor? You didn't come here to try to help others understand - you came in here to throw rocks. You're not an oppologist for them, your an advocate for their cause, waging your own little internet war.

Too much more to write. But most of us certainly hate the bad guys of the world, and because it is Saddam and the Taliban, and Al-Quida and their lot, were going to end up hating a few Muslims. And when there people being their protagonists on internet boards, you can add them as well.

[Steve 'StatMan']

And who knows maybe there will be a Christian revolution and we'll start packing some bombs of our own and walking them into a crowded Mosque in Mecca while they're doing their laps. Then you can claim moral equivalence.

I'm with you delayjf on most of your post above. As for the quote, as much as I get frustrated, I have to perish the thoughts about counter suicide bombers in Mosques, Mecca and the Muslim countries and lands.

If all are come to Christianity, or at the very least, all religions are to come to a peaceful unity, then my sincere hope and prayer is that they come inspired by the spirit, inspired by Jesus, and by the good works that many of us, though admittedly flawed, try to do. And definitely not by violence souly for the sake of religion. That'd be as bad as the what I and others here have been arguing against.

Hopefully. But if an all-out religious war should break out, my heart is still my heart, but our survival is survival.

[delayjf]

Steve,

Your right of course...just my frustration showing.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Steve,

Your right of course...just my frustration showing.

Thanks delayjf. I do get frustrated quite a bit myself, probably rather obvious lately.

[Tom]

Hey 46, someone mugs you and robs you.......CALL A MUSLEM!

[46zilzal]

Hey 46, someone mugs you and robs you.......CALL A MUSLEM!
One of these days I hope you learn how to spell that.

[Tom]

Google "muslem" and you will get 151,000 hits for that spelling.

[46zilzal]

Dumbing down of North America is well underway. Many of those say ain't as well.

[bigmack]

Dumbing down of North America is well underway. Many of those say ain't as well.
And some scrape the bottom of the bucket run around cutting & pasting ad nauseum. They're by far the biggest fools of all.

[Gibbon]

Black Muslim group outraged after raids on their bakery uncovered an arms cache.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/13812780/detail.html?ding

...Colleagues said Oakland Post editor Chauncey the 57-year-old Bailey -- the editor of the Oakland Post -- had been working on a story about Your Black Muslim Bakery before he was ambushed and slain Thursday morning near the Alameda County courthouse in downtown Oakland.......

The search warrant yielded several weapons and other evidence of value including evidence linking the murder of Chauncey Bailey to members of the Your Black Muslim Bakery," Assistant Police Chief Howard Jordan said.




____________________________
Murderers, in general, are people who are consistent, people who are obsessed with one idea and nothing else ~ Ugo Betti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugo_Betti)

[Tom]

Dumbing down of North America is well underway. Many of those say ain't as well. Thanks to liberal school systems. The libs love dumb people, and it shows. And if you are going to use that argument on me, then it must apply to you as well, who aint got no idea how to use capitals or construct whole sentences. They teach you grammer in doctor school?:D

[JustRalph]

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Now if other jurisdictions had the gonads to start pulling raids like this........we might find some interesting things all over the country


Black Muslim group outraged after raids on their bakery uncovered an arms cache.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/13812780/detail.html?ding







____________________________
Murderers, in general, are people who are consistent, people who are obsessed with one idea and nothing else ~ Ugo Betti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugo_Betti)

[PaceAdvantage]

Dumbing down of North America is well underway. Many of those say ain't as well.

You're right about that. The left has conveniently forgotten how some of their "poster children" (Pelosi, Reid, Dean) LIED TO US just like you accuse Bush and Cheney of LYING US into Iraq:

http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv (http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv)

[JustRalph]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2187263,00.html

Britain once again enables a sub culture to exist.....in the name of "tolerance"

21,000 girls at risk of genital mutilation, say campaigners


Rachel Williams
Wednesday October 10, 2007
The Guardian


More than 21,000 girls under 15 in England and Wales are estimated to be at serious risk of being forced into genital mutilation and a further 11,000 over-eights are highly likely already to have been subjected to the practice, according to research.
Parents and guardians in African immigrant communities are thought to be taking their children abroad for female gential mutilation (FGM), but so called "excisors" are also said to be operating in Britain.

Around 66,000 women and girls in England and Wales may have undergone the procedure, in which part or all of their genitalia is cut off and stitched up, without anaesthetic, the campaigning group Forward said yesterday.
Its study, funded by the Department of Health, also found the number of children born to women with FGM rose from an estimated 6,000 in 2001 to a likely figure of 9,000 in 2004.

Areas of Britain with the highest numbers of immigrants from FGM-practising countries include London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leicester.

Forward said the results showed the need for action to prevent FGM being passed on to the younger generation.

It is outlawed under the Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985 and the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. Practitioners and those sanctioning the abuse can be jailed for up to 14 years, but no one has been prosecuted in Britain.

~more at the link~

[betchatoo]

That is simply barbaric!

[Tom]

It is allah's will.

*s*p*i*t*

[keilan]

Complete control has always been their objective - tough to find words to describe their philosophy on life. And they hide behind Allah to shelter their actions. Does the word evil fit these people?

[lilmegahertz]

[puts on rose-colored glasses] I would love to live in a world where all were equal and treated with the respect they deserved. Except animal abusers. Those creeps can be plagued by whatever evil thing I can imagine.

[takes off rose-colored glasses] But face it. It is a cruel world out there and with the myriad of diverse cultures and peoples we will continue to appall each other with our differences. Eating cows over here freaks some folks out over there.

Speaking as a female, I myself have been put in a position where someone would give me the don't worry your pretty head attitude or try to dominate me because he thought it was his duty. But I saw enough of that when I was a child by the way most of the elderly women in my town accepted this as common practice and decided I would never allow this to happen.

I was a fuel handler/truck driver in the Army and had the leadership courses required and the stubborn, bull-headed attitude to git r done. Me and my hubby respect each other. I respect his opinion and he respects my right to change his opinion to suit me....;)

[robert99]

It is nothing at all to do with the Muslim religion.
Like the male mutilation carried out by the Jewish faith it has been going on for thousands of years.
As the report says, 29 countries (not religions) are known to practise mutilation, including Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia and Senegal. It is a cultural things forced onto young girls by their families, whose culture stubbornly believes it to be the right thing to do for their daughters. As it is a very embarrassing violation for any girl so young, let alone one that their parents and relations have decreed, and it is usually done when they go on "holiday" in their parent's country - there is virtually no evidence made available for the police to bring any prosecution. Doctors and nurses report things to the authorities when they become aware often during first pregnancies.
We have at least been trying to do something about it since the 1985 Act.
If you don't think that people from those countries resident in USA do not do exactly the same thing, then think again.

[keilan]

Robert it's evil regardless of where it takes place.

[Greyfox]

It is nothing at all to do with the Muslim religion.


You are probably 100 % right that it has nothing to do with the Koran and Muslim religious teachings.
Yet when close to 100 % of these mutilation victims are from the Muslim culture, it is very difficult to separate the two.

[JustRalph]

If you don't think that people from those countries resident in USA do not do exactly the same thing, then think again.

The difference here is, we prosecute..........you can find some cases via google............. the Brits "tolerate" it........in the spirit of non confontation.........is there anything you won't overlook as so not to piss off those who are taking your country away from you?

[Greyfox]

You are probably 100 % right that it has nothing to do with the Koran and Muslim religious teachings.
Yet when close to 100 % of these mutilation victims are from the Muslim culture, it is very difficult to separate the two.


The other side of that coin that I desribed above is, that while the mutilation victims come from the Muslim culture, does anyone in the religious community stand up and voice their disgust with the practice?
If so, who among the Imams?

[46zilzal]

The other side of that coin that I desribed above is, that while the mutilation victims come from the Muslim culture, does anyone in the religious community stand up and voice their disgust with the practice?
If so, who among the Imams?
From everything I've read, the basic philosophy of Islam has been set since edicts of the 12th century. Few question them.

[robert99]

Unicef, WHO, EU etc have been trying to deal with this huge issue for the past two decades. Senegal has banned it. Most other FGM/C practicing countries still believe it to be a good thing. Children's rights against its practice are protected in international law but still some 3 millions are at risk to suffer it each year. Prosecutions, even in USA, have to be supported by evidence. Few, if any, children would wish to be in the position of having their parents and relations jailed, so suffer on in silence. One year old babies would not even understand what was being done to them, nor can they talk.

"Female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C), or female genital cutting, refers to a number of practices which involve cutting away part or all of a girl’s external genitalia. Mutilated/cut infants, girls and women face irreversible lifelong health risks, among other consequences.

Estimates of the total number of women living today who have been subjected to FGM/C in Africa, range between 100 and 140 million. Given current birth rates this means that some 3 million girls are at risk of some form of female genital mutilation every year. Most of the girls and women who have undergone FGM/C live in 30 African countries, although some live in Asia. They are also increasingly found in Europe, Australia, Canada and the USA, primarily among immigrants from Africa and southwestern Asia.

FGM/C is practiced for a number of reasons including:

Sexual: to control or reduce female sexuality.
Sociological: for example, as an initiation for girls into womanhood, social integration and the maintenance of social cohesion.
Hygiene and aesthetic reasons: where it is believed that the female genitalia are dirty and unsightly.
Health: in the belief that it enhances fertility and child survival.
Religious reasons: in the mistaken belief that FGM/C is a religious requirement.

FGM/C is mainly performed on children and adolescents between four and 14 years of age. In some countries such as Ethiopia however, more than half of FGM/C is performed on infants under one year old.

Practitioners of FGM/C are generally traditional birth attendants or trained midwives. FGM/C is a highly-valued service with high financial rewards, and a practitioner's status in the community and income can be directly linked with performance of the operation.

FGM/C is a fundamental violation of the rights of girls. It is discriminatory and violates the rights to equal opportunities, health, freedom from violence, injury, abuse, torture and cruel or inhuman and degrading treatment, protection from harmful traditional practices, and to make decisions concerning reproduction. These rights are protected in international law.

FGM/C does irreparable harm. It can result in death through severe bleeding leading to haemorrhagic shock, neurogenic shock as a result of pain and trauma, and severe, overwhelming infection and septicaemia. It is routinely traumatic. Many girls enter a state of shock induced by the severe pain, psychological trauma and exhaustion from screaming.

Other harmful effects include: failure to heal; abscess formation; cysts; excessive growth of scar tissue; urinary tract infection; painful sexual intercourse; increased susceptibility to HIV/AIDS, hepatitis and other blood-borne diseases; reproductive tract infection; pelvic inflammatory diseases; infertility; painful menstruation; chronic urinary tract obstruction/ bladder stones; urinary incontinence; obstructed labour; increased risk of bleeding and infection during childbirth."

[keilan]

99 we're on the same page.

P.S. last time I called anyone 99 was Gretz

[robert99]

The difference here is, we prosecute..........you can find some cases via google............. the Brits "tolerate" it........in the spirit of non confontation.........is there anything you won't overlook as so not to piss off those who are taking your country away from you?


Yes, just one case this year, in Georgia, where most unusually the mother brought evidence.

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/gonews.php?subaction=showfull&id=1171249392&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&

The Brits certainly do not tolerate it and have passed two laws against it with 14 year jail sentences. No one is taking our country away - the last one to try that committed suicide in a Berlin bunker. Sadly, the recent attitude of mindless confrontation rather than reasoned actions to solve problems has made the USA Government look a fool on the World stage. The moral issue is the further mess that prosecution makes to the child's life if her parents are jailed from her evidence and her support community then isolates her for bringing shame on them. We try to get the practice stopped in the first instance.

[PaceAdvantage]

Like the male mutilation carried out by the Jewish faith it has been going on for thousands of years.Equating the two is the height of spin control.

[betovernetcapper]

[QUOTE=robert99
The moral issue is the further mess that prosecution makes to the child's life if her parents are jailed from her evidence and her support community then isolates her for bringing shame on them. [/QUOTE]

I think a child is well served by isolation from anyone who mutilates her or who thinks mutilating her is a good idea.

[JustRalph]

Yes, just one case this year, in Georgia, where most unusually the mother brought evidence.

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/gonews.php?subaction=showfull&id=1171249392&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&

The Brits certainly do not tolerate it and have passed two laws against it with 14 year jail sentences. No one is taking our country away - the last one to try that committed suicide in a Berlin bunker. Sadly, the recent attitude of mindless confrontation rather than reasoned actions to solve problems has made the USA Government look a fool on the World stage. The moral issue is the further mess that prosecution makes to the child's life if her parents are jailed from her evidence and her support community then isolates her for bringing shame on them. We try to get the practice stopped in the first instance.

one prosecution in Georgia is 100% more than all of Britain..........

[JustRalph]

http://www.avpress.com/n/02/0202_s1.hts

This from California............ about 60 miles northeast of Los Angeles

Deputies halt protest at teen's burial
150 people gather at Rosamond cemetery
This story appeared in the Antelope Valley Press
Saturday, February 2, 2008.
By JAMES RUFUS KOREN
Valley Press Staff Writer



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROSAMOND - Kern County Sheriff's deputies were called to the Islamic Cemetery and Mortuary on Friday afternoon to control a crowd of roughly 150 people who gathered to protest the traditional Islamic burial of a Quartz Hill High School student.
Friends and relatives of Ryan Alamoodi, 17, who died Tuesday in an auto collision, tried to attend the funeral, which they said was closed to non-Muslims. Alamoodi's father is Muslim; his mother is Christian. They divorced in 2005.

"When we got here, it was total chaos," said Vic Keesey, a Kern County sheriff's deputy. "There were people arguing back and forth - nobody listening to anyone else, just trying to say their piece."

Ryan's mother, Lynette Alamoodi, and many of Ryan's friends said they did not want Ryan buried at the cemetery, which is owned by the American Islamic Institute of Antelope Valley.

"Ryan is a Christian," Lynette Alamoodi said. "I don't want him buried here."

She said the cemetery, a sandy lot on 118th Street West about eight miles west of Rosamond, was not an acceptable resting place for Ryan.

"The cemetery is like humps on the graves - it looks like a place where you would bury animals," she said, adding that she would seek legal help in having Ryan exhumed and buried elsewhere.

She also complained that the stone above her son's grave would not have his name, birth date or any other information.

"There was a difference of religions," Keesey said. "The kids wanted to be present for the service or the burial, like they would at a Christian service. It was just ignorance of the Muslim religion."

Keesey said some of the roughly 150 non-Muslims who came to the cemetery has been drinking, and some had armed themselves with sticks and beer cans.

"They wanted to see their friend put in the ground, and the Muslim religion doesn't allow for that," he said.

At one point during the standoff, Lynette Alamoodi and Huda Alamoodi, Ryan's stepmother, scuffled, with Huda Alamoodi ending up with scratches on her face, deputies said.

Lynette Alamoodi's boyfriend, Jaber Haddad, said only Muslims were allowed to attend the pre-burial prayer service; friends insisted Ryan was a practicing Christian and even had a Christian tattoo.

Ryan's father, Salah Alamoodi, denied both those claims.

"Ryan didn't go to a church and he didn't go to a mosque," he said. "He prayed with me here in the house."

He said weeping women are not allowed into the cemetery because "that's not good for the person who passed away."

He said Muslims and non-Muslims alike were allowed into the pre-burial prayer service as long as they respected Islamic tradition, with men praying in one room and women in another.

Lynette Alamoodi said Ryan lived with her until April. Salah said Ryan had lived with him and his wife, Huda, for two years. During that time, Salah said he had full custody of Ryan.

Lynette Alamoodi said her ex-husband consulted her about funeral arrangements and she agreed to many traditional Islamic elements - a prayer service at a mosque, a special bathing of the body and wrapping the body in a shroud instead of using a casket.

But she said she "didn't know they were going to bury him like this."

Salah Alamoodi said the cemetery is in a beautiful setting, close to the mountains.

"They didn't like the place because it doesn't have trees or flowers or a Hollywood setting," Salah Alamoodi said. "To me, it was a beautiful place."

http://www.avpress.com/n/02/0202_s1.hts

~more at the link~

[ljb]

ALL Religions have discriminated against women. The United States being more liberal/progressive have lessened this discrimination but the born agains still believe a women comes behind the man and the son.

[PaceAdvantage]

ALL Religions have discriminated against women. The United States being more liberal/progressive have lessened this discrimination but the born agains still believe a women comes behind the man and the son.This is so childish. You sitting there attempting to draw parallels between born-again Christians and fundamental Muslims and their respective treatment of women is insane.....but, if you must:

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/women.html

Some choice quotes from the above link:

Quotes from the "Holy" Quran on Women


II/223: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will...

Here you can clearly see how highly Islam treats women. Women in Islam are referred to as fields that are to be cultivated by man. What an honour for a Muslim woman!

IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.

First point to notice here is that Quran clearly states that Men are superior to women. Secondly, Islam instructs that a man should control his women through brutal violence and fear.

IV/15: (For women) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.

IV/16: (For Men) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

As you can see, for women any sort of sexual exploration is punishable by death. Whereas for a man, any form of perversion is pardoned by the all merciful Allah.

XXIV/6-7: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...

Here we see, that a husband can easily accuse his wife (or wives) and eventually sentence her to death by merely declaring four times that the accusation is true. On the other hand, women have no such right in Islam.

Let's see you top this from some anti-born-again site....:lol:

[hcap]

PALet's see you top this from some anti-born-again site....
No need to go that far. How about the Old Testament?

On Women....
Exodus 22
If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to be married, he will
pay her bride-price and make her his wife. If her father absolutely
refuses to let him have her, he will pay a sum equivalent to the
bride-price of a virgin.

Leviticus 15
Whenever a woman has a discharge and the discharge from her body
is of blood, she will remain in a state of menstrual pollution
for seven days.
Anyone who touches her will be unclean until evening.
Anything she lies on in this polluted state will be unclean;
anything she sits on will be unclean.
If a man goes so far as to sleep with her, he will contract her
menstrual pollution and will be unclean for seven days.

Leviticus 20
The man who commits adultery with his neighbour's wife will be
put to death, he and the woman.
The man who has intercourse with a man in the same way as with a woman:
they have done a hateful thing together; they will be put to death;
their blood will be on their own heads

Numbers 31
Moses was enraged with the officers of the army, the commanders of the
thousands and commanders of the hundreds, who had come back from this
military expedition. He said, 'Why have you spared the life of all the women?
They were the very ones who, on Balaam's advice, caused the Israelites
to be unfaithful to Yahweh in the affair at Peor: hence the plague
which struck Yahweh's community. So kill all the male children and
kill all the women who have ever slept with a man; but spare the lives of
the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 22
If a man marries a woman, has sexual intercourse with her and then,
turning against her, taxes her with misconduct and publicly defames her
by saying, 'I married this woman and when I had sexual intercourse with her
I did not find evidence of her virginity,' the girl's father and mother
must take the evidence of her virginity and produce it before the elders
of the town, at the gate.
But if the accusation that the girl cannot show evidence of virginity
is substantiated, she must be taken out, and at the door of her father's
house her fellow-citizens must stone her to death for having committed
an infamy in Israel by bringing disgrace on her father's family.

Deuteronomy 22
If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man encounters her
in the town and has sexual intercourse with her, you will take them
both to the gate of the town in question and stone them to death:
the girl, for not having called for help in the town; the man,
for having exploited his fellow-citizen's wife.

Deuteronomy 25
If, when two men are fighting, the wife of one intervenes to protect
her husband from the other's blows by reaching out and seizing the other
by his private parts, you must cut off her hand and show no pity.

Deuteronomy 24:1-2
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.


Other Topics....

Instructing children correctly..
2 Kings 2
From there he (Elisha) went up to Bethel, and while he was on the road,
some small boys came out of the town and jeered at him. 'Hurry up, baldy!'
they shouted. 'Come on up, baldy!' He turned round and looked at them;
and he cursed them in the name of Yahweh. And two bears came out of the
forest and savaged forty-two of the boys. From there he went on to
Mount Carmel and then returned to Samaria.

Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Mercy...
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Handicaps and disfigurement or dressing strangely...
"Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries." -- Leviticus 21:17-23

"I will punish ... all such as are clothed with strange apparel. -- Zephaniah 1:8

Religious Tolerance and dealing with foreigners.....

Deuteronomy 12
You must completely destroy all the places where the nations you dispossess
have served their gods, on high mountains, on hills, under any spreading tree;
you must tear down their altars, smash their sacred stones, burn their
sacred poles, hack to bits the statues of their gods and obliterate
their name from that place.

Deuteronomy 13
If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you, offering you
some sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes about; and if he then
says to you, 'Let us follow other gods (hitherto unknown to you)
and serve them,' you must not listen to that prophet's words or to that
dreamer's dreams. That prophet or that dreamer of dreams must be put to death,

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

Deuteronomy 20
When you advance on a town to attack it, first offer it peace-terms.
If it accepts these and opens its gates to you, all the people inside
will owe you forced labour and work for you. But if it refuses peace
and gives battle, you must besiege it. Yahweh your God having handed it
over to you, you will put the whole male population to the sword.
But the women, children, livestock and whatever the town contains
by way of spoil, you may take for yourselves as booty.


Slavery
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21

Witches....
Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

And finally punishment by Hemorrhoids...
The hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods (Hemorrhoids) in their secret parts. -- 1 Samuel 5:6-7

[JustRalph]

I would have to say that none of that shit is being done today...........as opposed to the religion of Peace...........

it is called moving forward..........evolving.........progress.......e tc

[PaceAdvantage]

Hcap, I don't think you topped me in your post. Women were treated much more harshly in the examples I gave, were they not.

Hell, some of your examples actually show MEN being treated just as harshly as the WOMEN.....all in all, I think you lose.

And, just to make sure, top this:

Jesus never married a 6yo girl....did he? At least the Muslim prophet waited until she was nine before he consumated the marriage....that shows at least a little bit of respect for women....:bang:

[hcap]

Numbers 31
Moses was enraged with the officers of the army, the commanders of the
thousands and commanders of the hundreds, who had come back from this
military expedition. He said, 'Why have you spared the life of all the women?
They were the very ones who, on Balaam's advice, caused the Israelites
to be unfaithful to Yahweh in the affair at Peor: hence the plague
which struck Yahweh's community. So kill all the male children and
kill all the women who have ever slept with a man; but spare the lives of
the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 22
If a man marries a woman, has sexual intercourse with her and then,
turning against her, taxes her with misconduct and publicly defames her
by saying, 'I married this woman and when I had sexual intercourse with her
I did not find evidence of her virginity,' the girl's father and mother
must take the evidence of her virginity and produce it before the elders
of the town, at the gate.
But if the accusation that the girl cannot show evidence of virginity
is substantiated, she must be taken out, and at the door of her father's
house her fellow-citizens must stone her to death for having committed
an infamy in Israel by bringing disgrace on her father's family.

Real funny Alice!

[Libertus1]

....fast-forward to present day:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3295487.ece

Family of teen Muslim invited men to rape her
A GIRL of 15 was tricked into a "telephone marriage" ceremony to a Sheffield man with a mental age of five in a ceremony recognised by sharia (Islamic law).

When the girl arrived from Pakistan expecting to meet the handsome man she had been shown in a photograph, she found that he was 40 years old, unemployed and disabled.

To make matters worse, her mother-in-law decided to exploit her attractive looks by forcing her into prostitution.

The family invited men to the family home to rape her before she managed to escape to the police by bolting through the front door. She was taken into care and now lives in a refuge.

The case is highlighted in a report by the Centre for Social Cohesion, which has found that policemen, councillors and taxi drivers are turning a blind eye or even conniving in enforcing the Asian community's strict "moral code" on young women.

The girl's marriage last April was not recognised by the Home Office but was approved by the Islamic Sharia Council in Britain. She is typical of the runaway brides at risk of an "honour killing". According to official figures, 10 to 12 women are murdered in Britain in honour killings each year, but the government has been warned by MPs that this is a serious underestimate. Police often record the deaths as cases of domestic violence, while other girls are driven to suicide or taken away to their family's country of origin and never seen again. Many Asian parents would rather resort to violence against their children than see their reputation tarnished by the perceived dishonour of allowing them to become "westernised".

The report, Crimes of the Community, claims the problem is no longer an issue of first-generation migrants importing attitudes from "back home" but is "indigenous and self-perpetuating" because it is sustained by third and fourth-generation immigrants.

The study reveals the case of Saamiya, a 16-year-old girl from Birmingham, whose parents were so angry when they discovered she had a boyfriend that they flew her to Pakistan and told her they had arranged a marriage two hours before the ceremony.

"During the Islamic ceremony my dad was standing behind me with one hand on my shoulder and with his other hand he had a gun which was pointed at my back so that I didn't say 'no'," Saamiya said.

"To everyone else it looked natural — he was just standing there stroking my shoulder — but just before he had told me that he would shoot me if I didn't go through with it."

more ... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3295487.ece

[ljb]

I would have to say that none of that shit is being done today...........as opposed to the religion of Peace...........

it is called moving forward..........evolving.........progress.......e tc
That's what I said Ralph, I also mentioned that some in this country haven't moved forward as far as others. Some are still very conservative in their religious beliefs and others are more progressive. This is not an attempt at comparison just a statement of fact.
Upon reading PA and Hcap's posts i will add.
This is an example of how some societies have moved on and some have held steadfast to the old conservative ways.

[JustRalph]

That's what I said Ralph, I also mentioned that some in this country haven't moved forward as far as others. Some are still very conservative in their religious beliefs and others are more progressive. This is not an attempt at comparison just a statement of fact.
Upon reading PA and Hcap's posts i will add.
This is an example of how some societies have moved on and some have held steadfast to the old conservative ways.

I don't hear about any evangelical Christians stoning their kids to death all over the south. And let me tell you, they are here. When I am at my house in North Carolina.........you can't miss them. They are on the radio, TV and Sunday Mornings are an event. There is a Church on almost every friggin corner too.

[ljb]

I don't hear about any evangelical Christians stoning their kids to death all over the south. And let me tell you, they are here. When I am at my house in North Carolina.........you can't miss them. They are on the radio, TV and Sunday Mornings are an event. There is a Church on almost every friggin corner too.
Just read about a man in Odessa Tx. that killed his wife. Claims he was trying to exorcise the devil.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying born agains are at the same level of mis-treatment of women as muslims. I am trying to point out the historical ways religion has treated women and the fact that some societies have become more liberal and no longer allow such atrocities. While some still hold to the conservative religious views of old.
And I feel for you, having to put up with that stuff in N.Carolina.

[GaryG]

And I feel for you, having to put up with that stuff in N.Carolina.:lol: :lol: :lol: Hey Grits....are you there?

[JustRalph]

And the beat goes on..................97% of Pakistani's are Muslim...... I think it probably fits the thread..............

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16802875/detail.html

Police: Jonesboro Man Killed Daughter Who Wanted Out Of Arranged Marriage
Victim Had No Contact With Husband For 3 Months

POSTED: 11:50 am EDT July 6, 2008
UPDATED: 1:02 pm EDT July 6, 2008

JONESBORO, Ga. -- A 25-year-old Jonesboro woman is dead after police said she told her father she wanted out of an arranged marriage.

Police said they found Sandela Kanwal’s body inside a home on Utah Drive in Jonesboro. They said Kanwal had been killed by her own father, Chaudry Rashad.

“Apparently, she had been married and has had no contact with her husband who lives in Chicago for the last three months,” said Tim Owens of the Clayton County Police Department.

Owens said the victim and her father argued over the marriage and the fact that it had been arranged. “At some point during the altercation, he ended up killing his daughter,” said Owens.

[JustRalph]

I saw this piece on Dubai........... all I ever hear is how great Dubai is.....and how it's growing etc...........fits the thread.............and kind of surprised me...........

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=630326

[Greyfox]

I saw this piece on Dubai........... all I ever hear is how great Dubai is.....and how it's growing etc...........fits the thread.............and kind of surprised me...........

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=630326

Thank you.
That's a very eye-opening article about an Emirate where prostitution is supposedly illegal. That's a :lol:

Good post. :ThmbUp: